BajaNomad

A Double Shakedown in Constitución

 Pages:  1    3  

cutexianchick - 7-3-2010 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SiReNiTa
Cutexian, I've driven all through Baja and barely look old enough to have my license and have never been pulled over, I always respect transit rules and go the speed limit, but that's not to say that no one else will get pulled over, that's just my experience.

IF you get pulled over, don't be afraid, I seriously doubt that you are in any danger at all, if the police man asks for money, ask for a ticket and for him to escort you to the station to pay it. Also as said above it might be a good idea to have the other person in the car video taping the whole thing, ask for his name and badge number (numero de placa) politely, I doubt he will insist on taking money after that and if he does...well stand your ground and only pay if you did something wrong.


Have in mind that lots of stop signs in C.C. are a bit hidden and hard to see so it's possible to run a stop sign with out noticing (at least for me since I have not spent much time there and don't know the streets).

Don't get nervous!


That you so much for your tiem in answering my question... 10 pages of topic was a bit confusing on just what to do in the situation. thank you.

[Edited on 7-3-2010 by BajaNomad]

Juanita - 7-4-2010 at 07:19 PM

Well, they're still at it. I just passed through Ciudad Constitucion southbound, and I thought maybe on a Sunday I wouldn't see anything. Part way through town a big new-looking black pickup truck with California plates and a motorcycle in the bed pulled onto the road ahead of me and I followed him through several lights, thinking he was being so careful he must have read this thread. On the left in the 'local' northbound lane I saw a police car stop someone. We proceeded southward but just when we were departing town a police truck zoomed up between me and the black pickup, lights ablaze and pulled him over. I'm sure not looking forward to the return journey.

The only protective strategy I can think of is to park at a store, wait till someone else has been pulled over and then hope to get by. But the problem begs for a solution that doesn't throw someone else to the dogs, and I think many letters from those who receive fines, over time, and talking to contacts, may eventually help. I can talk to our state legislator in San Ignacio when I get home.

desertcpl - 7-4-2010 at 07:30 PM

I want that job with the police in CC.. how cool is that, legal extortion. way cool. I could fund my retirement in no time,

rhintransit - 7-5-2010 at 07:29 AM

El Juncalito checking in again...being close to Constitucion, we local gringos have had a lot of traffic stops there...a (female) resident was the latest to run the gauntlet there yesterday. having read an article in the La Paz Gringo, and being aware of the situation from her neighbors, she was not surprised to be stopped. she carefully followed all stops, etc, and was pulled over anyway. she said she was polite and courteous and cheerful, handed over her Mexican license and was told of the mythical pedestrians in the crosswalk she'd narrowly missed. she was told that she could pay the officer 200 pesos or go to the police station and pay 500. the officer seemed quite surprised to hear her cheerfully agree to go to the station, and gave her several more chances to pay him instead. anyway, still cheerful and cooperative she followed him on a round about way to the police station (which IS OPEN ON SUNDAY). he went in, a young woman came out, another offer of paying the officer, then she was let go, told to be very careful while driving...

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 07:39 AM

What became of the raging "letter to the boss" campaign that was happening here last week?

cutexianchick - 7-5-2010 at 09:27 AM

So I have decided on our way down... we will video driving through the city and now this city too. So when we get stopped I will play that sucker at the station and tell them, where is the pedestrian??!!

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cutexianchick
So I have decided on our way down... we will video driving through the city and now this city too. So when we get stopped I will play that sucker at the station and tell them, where is the pedestrian??!!


I suggested once before that you go back and read the thread from the beginning, but you couldn't be bothered. All of your questions have been answered.
While you're at it, leave that video camera at home. It will just get you in trouble.

BajaBlanca - 7-5-2010 at 10:12 AM

maybe we should fly Mexican flags on our cars ??????

Les always says "give me the ticket" and they never do.

cutexianchick - 7-5-2010 at 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by cutexianchick
So I have decided on our way down... we will video driving through the city and now this city too. So when we get stopped I will play that sucker at the station and tell them, where is the pedestrian??!!


I suggested once before that you go back and read the thread from the beginning, but you couldn't be bothered. All of your questions have been answered.
While you're at it, leave that video camera at home. It will just get you in trouble.


DENNIS
I did READ all of the posts... with so much information I am still confused! Your so crochety, I sware... I cant post something on here? I have read pros and cons to every which way to go!

Walk a mile in her shoes

Lee - 7-5-2010 at 12:30 PM

Consider any further discussion about what's been said, Dennis, as review.

It might be difficult for some to consider running a gauntlet in CC as fun in the sun in Baja.

So, let's welcome more discussion on the hows and whys of dealing with the situation down there.

Video taping your drive through CC is a great idea. Very creative.

Have a good time. You're in Baja.

DavidE - 7-5-2010 at 01:37 PM

Sheez!
Flip on your hazard flashers at the edge of town and then go through town at the speed limit on the signs. It is illegal to be ANYWHERE in an intersection when a light turns red. Buckle up and yield for pedestrians.

If a cop gives you a hard time, tell him vamanos a la commandancia. If he says the station is closed or the commandante is shacked up at la casa chica tell him "That's Fine Can You Recommend A Good Hotel?"

SiReNiTa - 7-5-2010 at 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
If he says the station is closed or the commandante is shacked up at la casa chica tell him "That's Fine Can You Recommend A Good Hotel?"



:lol::lol::lol: Nice!!

As for the letter, I'm working on translating it and I believe Iflyfish stated he would be back tuesday to send it??

It's really to bad that our "protectors" try and many times succeed in taking advantage of people, and that they are ignorant enough to think that just because most of the people are tourists, they don't know whats going on.
It's sad to see because that gives all mexican police the same bad name, and not all of them are corrupt.

Gone are the good 'ole days when a police would ask you for just enough "pa' la soda" :lol:
Happened to us once in Loreto when we took a wrong turn on a one way street (oopsies), the cop was young and we told him honestly that we did not see the sign and were not from there...it was night time and we were tired of driving around and wanted to get to our camp site and sleeeep, so he got our 20 pesos and we were on our way (yes I know, even 20 pesos gives them the wrong idea, but what's done is done).

Jaybo - 7-5-2010 at 03:45 PM

You guys have until next February to get this fixed when we drive down there :)

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SiReNiTa
"pa' la soda"



What does that mean, mi tesora?

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee

Video taping your drive through CC is a great idea. Very creative.



Bad idea, Lee, .....unless the cameras are well hidden.
Then...what do you do with the copy? Show it to the chief or the mayor or the state police or the federales?
What do you do with it?
Is there anybody there who will be shocked by your video production?
Is there anybody there who doesn't know what's happening?
Is there anybody there who will side with you over there brother in the industry?
Is there anybody there who won't tell you that they are astounded by your accusations and want to help you?
Is there anybody there that will pee in the face of their brothers and take your side?

Is there any possibility that you and others here will wake up and see reality?

Nobody in the system which is Ciuadad Constitutión will see your point of view for anything other than, "this time we got you, yankee-sucker" humor.

C'mon, Lee. You know better.

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
What became of the raging "letter to the boss" campaign that was happening here last week?


BUMP Need an answer.

k-rico - 7-5-2010 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
What became of the raging "letter to the boss" campaign that was happening here last week?


BUMP Need an answer.


How much is it worth to ya? I may have an answer.

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 05:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee

Video taping your drive through CC is a great idea. Very creative.



Bad idea, Lee, .....unless the cameras are well hidden.
Then...what do you do with the copy? Show it to the chief or the mayor or the state police or the federales?
What do you do with it?
Is there anybody there who will be shocked by your video production?
Is there anybody there who doesn't know what's happening?
Is there anybody there who will side with you over there brother in the industry?
Is there anybody there who won't tell you that they are astounded by your accusations and want to help you?
Is there anybody there that will pee in the face of their brothers and take your side?

Is there any possibility that you and others here will wake up and see reality?

Nobody in the system which is Ciuadad Constitutión will see your point of view for anything other than, "this time we got you, yankee-sucker" humor.

C'mon, Lee. You know better.



Dennis, videos posted on Youtube are considered influential evidence to provide to a judge, jury or superior in Mexico or anywhere. Video is a standard form for submitting evidence of a crime to identify the persons and submit evidenc and is referenced in cases where applicable.

You see, posting video evidence on Youtube allows all parties to review and be aware of the available evidence. You can take it before a judge and in many cases video evidence shines light on the truth.

Public spaces, such as public roads provide no expectation of privacy and as a public space, taking photos or videos is your right.

You might be surprised but these videos are absolutely passed around the Minesterial Publico and tagged with the office and the names and do have significant impact on defeating corruption.

Here are examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s0m0OO8Dr0&feature=relat...

shari - 7-5-2010 at 05:28 PM

hey D...pa la soda or para la soda means ....for a soda...it is a very very common expression in these parts meaning a small gratuity so the person can go get a soda.

We use it alot here when someone has done something nice for you....gives you a tow, helped change a tire, pull you out of the sand, generally if someone went out of their way to help you with something, or returns a found object, rescues a pet, whatever...we always offer some money and they always say no no no and then we say Pa'la soda as we stuff it in their pocket or on their dashboard. It is a polite way to show your appreciation and is better than saying here is a tip. Most often people will take a small tip if you say Pa'la soda.

I quite like the idea of videoing your cruise through the gauntlet and think it would be effective...maybe.

desertcpl - 7-5-2010 at 05:44 PM

well I got to get back into this.

Shari. I think you would really be asking for problems with having a camcorder on them.you would not be able to do this going thru check points,, the cops in CC know this.

I said this before on this thread and I agree with Dennis

and lets see what K-Rico has to say about this

nothing is going to be done locally with the police in CC. it needs to be done from the outside, then down to stop this

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 05:53 PM

OK...Gnu, you put up a video of some big lipped Iraqi copess talking crap. BFD

What I'm sayin is, if I were a cop and you or anyone else shoved a camera in my face, I'd take it away and beat you half to death with it.

I'm also saying you can have all the film you want, but it does no good without objective eyes to review it.
Doncha effing get it? Gawwwdammmm....I know you do.
Quote:

You might be surprised but these videos are absolutely passed around the Minesterial Publico and tagged with the office and the names and do have significant impact on defeating corruption.



This is pure fantasy, or worse. What they do is, one...entertain..and two... instruct stealth. "Watch for recorders and don't get caught on tape."

Do you truly believe a ************ video, an indescretion by the accused for it's existance, will be an indictment against anybody within a system which is repressive by design and motivated by revenge and payback?

NO

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
hey D...pa la soda or para la soda means ....for a soda...it is a very very common expression in these parts meaning a small gratuity so the person can go get a soda.



Thanks, Shari....I do the same, almost, but I like to say, "Por una cerveza" or Media cerveza....whatever the amount calls for.
We're all in the same boat here, I think.
Thanks again for the enlightenment.

No visable cameras.

shari - 7-5-2010 at 06:13 PM

I was visualizing as you drive through town just hold your phone or camera up like a gawking tourista and film as you drive...then if by chance you might need it to get out of a false accusation....well....cool.
I agree it might not be a good plan to stick a camera in a cops face...but maybe you could ask if you could take his picture...hahaha...might get you out of a ticket....er...mordida.

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
OK...Gnu, you put up a video of some big lipped Iraqi copess talking crap. BFD

What I'm sayin is, if I were a cop and you or anyone else shoved a camera in my face, I'd take it away and beat you half to death with it.

I'm also saying you can have all the film you want, but it does no good without objective eyes to review it.
Doncha effing get it? Gawwwdammmm....I know you do.


Quote:

You might be surprised but these videos are absolutely passed around the Minesterial Publico and tagged with the office and the names and do have significant impact on defeating corruption.



This is pure fantasy, or worse. What they do is, one...entertain..and two... instruct stealth. "Watch for recorders and don't get caught on tape."

Do you truly believe a *********** video, an indescretion by the accused for it's existance, will be an indictment against anybody within a system which is repressive by design and motivated by revenge and payback?

NO


This may be another south versus north thing...

I know you hate to hear this, but we take video of cops treating us unfairly, we demand a ticket and we take the tickets and we bring them directly to the judge at the centro de transito where they review any evidence you have immediately and the the cases are dismissed and there is an order written for the offending to MP to answer to as well a federal order can be written. To me, that is all I want, the case dismissed and the officer to know that the system has documented it.

My personal experience is that when we catch them in the act and fight it, we win, and they never return to that spot again and when they see our car at later moments they turn away. Keep in mind when a cop behaving very badly, they know they are doing it and they do not hold it against people for standing up for themselves. There has not been any evidence of retaliation when we defend ourselves, just the opposite, we get respect which is better than being pegged as an easy mark.

Good things do happen.

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

desertcpl - 7-5-2010 at 06:23 PM

Shari

I dont think for a moment asking a cop in CC while he is shaking you down will want to pose for you

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by desertcpl]

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 06:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
I agree it might not be a good plan to stick a camera in a cops face...but maybe you could ask if you could take his picture...hahaha...might get you out of a ticket....er...mordida.



Claro que sí. If you wear your Sindicatúra ball cap backwards....be sure and turn it around so he can see it. :lol:

You can't beat these guys. Only pressure from the business community can stop this.
I'll say it again and again and again ............ad infinitum.

cutexianchick - 7-5-2010 at 06:38 PM

Okay... I wasnt meaning put the camera in your face type of thing. LOL I meant start recording like tourist kinda but not so obvious. And ya I would be that kind of person that is talking much back at the station wanting to throw it in the officers face as my husband is poking at me to be quite and let him handle it! LOL Didnt think of the U-tube thing... so I can look like I knew what I was talking about... yea and I'll put it on U-tube too! :P

?"Por una cerveza or e soda"? I am so gringa... LOL

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by cutexianchick]

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid


My personal experience is that when we catch them in the act and fight it, we win, and they never return to that spot again and when they see our car at later moments they turn away. Keep in mind when a cop behaving very badly, they know they are doing it and they do not hold it against people for standing up for themselves. There has not been any evidence of retaliation when we defend ourselves, just the opposite, we get respect which is better than being pegged as an easy mark.

Good things do happen.



I guess they do when the game is defined,
You seem to have a network of participants in your game, Gnu. There are a lot of "WEs" in your narrative.
You are also in your neighborhood and have developed raport with your law enforcers.

People running the gauntlet in CC don't have that advantage....your mutual respect with your friendly enemy. They are at the mercy of predators who thrive on weakness and opportunity.
You are on a base of mutual respect with your adversary.
The travelor through CC is not.

No comparison. No way.

longlegsinlapaz - 7-5-2010 at 07:08 PM

I went to the Tourista Office today in La Paz.

The new guy (whose name I did not get...sorry) was not in the office, he was in Cabo, possibly back in his La Paz office Wed-Thurs.

In his absence, I spoke with a 29-year employee....29 years on the job there, not 29-years old! I gave him this website address & the thread name & asked him to please give it to the new head honcho when he returns from Cabo.

I asked what, if anything, could be done about the police harassment & extortion in Constitucion. Following is the information I was given:

"Each police station has a Juridico (legal area) within the PD. That individual is an abagado of the traffic department & part of his role is to help people in case of abuse by a policeman. They will not accept phone calls, letters or e-mails after the fact, they will only act on face-to-face interview basis.

If you can get a name/badge/vehicle # or plate, a physical description of the offending officer(s), the date, time & specific location of the incident, take it to the PD & ask for the Juridico. Supposedly they will write up an official complaint, call the officer(s) into the PD, have you verify this is indeed the correct individual(s), make him empty his pockets out & if you gave him a USD $20 with a red dot on Andrew Jackson's nose or a hundred folded into a origami bird & that bill comes out of his pocket, the officer is fired on the spot."

Unfortunately, no mention was made of legal action taken against the officer(s) & since I was told your money would be immediately returned, you'd in essence be "pocketing the evidence", I doubt that the officer(s) will be held long enough for you to get the hell outta Dodge!

I personally have a HUGE problem with this scenario!! For starters, all the officer has to do is leave the $$ in his car, with a partner; or if there's truly no honor among thieves, stash it under a convenient rock to be retrieved later; drop it off at home on his way into the station....the possibilities are endless! My greater concern is placing the accused & the accuser in a potentially volatile face-to-face situation. The risk is simply more than I'd be willing to take for fear of personal retribution. You just got the guy fired....how the hell do you think he's going to react if he sees you on the street 10 minutes or 10 days from now? I'd fear retribution from his buddies on the force as well. This is not a route I'd personally feel comfortable taking, especially if it was in my home territory where the chances were good that our paths would cross again!

Ditto for written complaints registered with Tourista Department; they carry NO weight, so an e-mail campaign is going to net you diddly squat, least of all the positive results hoped for. Their policy is to only act on a warm body standing in their office or on their desk registering an official detailed complaint in person.

IMO, there is a slight chance that an e-mail blizzard MIGHT possibly gain enough attention for someone somewhere to look into the allegations, but from everything I heard today, it'd be on par with a snowball's chance in hell. Maybe anything sent to a PD should be sent attn: Juridico.

And yes, I did point out the obvious that this activity in Constitucion affects all points south on the Peninsula, for all vehicular tourism....not just Constitucion! He acknowledged it's an unacceptable situation.

I personally would neither photograph nor take a video of anyone wearing a gun....especially in the midst of an extortion attempt! Give me a ticket if I'm caught dead-to-rights & I'll go straight to the PD & pay it....or "Let's go to the station" if it's a bogus stop.

I was also advised that PD's are supposed to be manned & open 24x7, so don't be falling for the PD is closed right now garbage.

It sounds like the best bet is to gain a new best friend....the Juridicio at the PD in whatever town you happen to get stopped by an armed extortionist!

Edit typo

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by longlegsinlapaz]

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 07:15 PM

when I say we I meant my GF and our friends we taught how to fight tickets, if you have photo and video evidence it is admissiable and those Mexican guys at trasito offices love to look at it and laugh and dismiss cases. It does have long lasting affects when you do, the corruptos have to move on to another neighborhood.

Everyone must decide for themselves how to handle these circumstances. Hopefully a few anecdotes are helpful to allow others to see there are many ways to defuse these situations, while being totally polite, calm, friendly and stick to the law. I think its important to see the corruptos are NOT horrible evil people, but instead realize that are convinced that gringos have money that grows on trees, they have found gringos easy targets for lots of dough-notice a typcial mordida for a Mexican is 20 pesos while gringos always reach for a 500 note, so as long as that reputation persists the problem will continue.

The moment our BN reputation is one of being informed, calm, truthful and extremely well documented the problem will be reduced dramtically.

I reiterate, always introduce yourself right away to a cop and ask the officer to identify themselves immediately. Officers must identify themselves as required by the constitution. Always be polite and not contradictory. A failure for police to identify themselves is a crime and immediately will establish they are corrupt while you have done nothing to provoke them or be impolite, it simply establishes that at the beginning of the stop they broke the law.

Its very easy to make up ideas about how these guys are going to beat you or something but that doesn't happen typically in mexican traffic stops like it so often does in US traffic taser incidents. That might occur in drunken brawls but rarely if ever in a Mexican traffic stop and certainly not for politely asking questions and insisting on a ticket politely while taking video which is totally legal in public in all countries of the North American Community.

You need to know how to do the dance.



[Edited on 7-6-2010 by gnukid]

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by gnukid]

Thinking outside the box is not a bad idea

Lee - 7-5-2010 at 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Bad idea, Lee, .....unless the cameras are well hidden.


I recognize that sticking a video cam in a cops face is not a good idea. I wasn't even thinking of using one after being stopped. Just video taping going through town, stopping at all signs/lights, etc.

It wouldn't be of much use as evidence outside of negotiating directly with the cop having stopped you.

So, although a video cam doesn't appeal to me personally, a regular camera does -- and I"ll have it on me when I get out to chat with any cop stopping me.

On all the other points, Dennis, we're in agreement.

Lee - 7-5-2010 at 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
I reiterate, always introduce yourself right away to a cop and ask the officer to identify themselves immediately. Officers must identify themselves as required by the constitution. Always be polite and not contradictory. A failure for police to identify themselves is a crime and immediately will establish they are corrupt while you have done nothing to provoke them or be impolite, it simply establishes that at the beginning of the stop they broke the law.

You need to know how to do the dance.


I'd add that it's better to get out of your car and talk face to face with any cop. Do not sit in your car waiting for them to approach you.

This pretty much sums it up.

longlegs

desertcpl - 7-5-2010 at 07:31 PM

well thought out, makes alot of sense, you have alot more experience than I do in this matters.

but it really doesn't address unformed travelers that do not read this forum, some thing needs to be done,, this is not acceptable for any one other than the police and the politicians in CC. that are complacent to this extortion

texascarwasher - 7-5-2010 at 07:34 PM

have any of you heard of Sindictura? i have sent e-mails to these folkks but haven't received a response. it seems like a great idea but who knows?? i too have been a victim of the Constitution shake down but told them to F--- off. Check out their website ******************************

BajaNomad edit: Sindacatura website is not the commercial site linked to above. It is:
http://www.sindicatura.gob.mx

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

desertcpl - 7-5-2010 at 07:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by texascarwasher
have any of you heard of Sindictura? i have sent e-mails to these folkks but haven't received a response. it seems like a great idea but who knows?? i too have been a victim of the Constitution shake down but told them to F--- off. Check out their website ******************************

BajaNomad edit: Sindacatura website is not the commercial site linked to above. It is:
http://www.sindicatura.gob.mx


that is really so funny more BS mordida. give me a break who in their right mind would go for that,

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 07:50 PM

Each region of the law enforcement is separate in Mexico, with very little inter-departmental communication. Consider them separate. In La Paz there are so many divergent agencies out and about its unbelievable.

To clarify, you can submit a report to the abogado at the transit office immediately to state a case of corruption while noting all relevant facts. You can also refer to video and photos, though perhaps it is not submissable at that time since there is no method for storage of this evidence, they will be reviewed on site and can referenced on the internet on youtube for example and they will have an affect when they demonstrate you to be correct and the officer identified to be clearly corrupt.

Again, to each his own, as some people have explained after a while it becomes fun to encounter a totally corrupt cop and watch how things quickly turn when you calmly ask them to explain their preposterous case to you. They always fold when you remain confident, calm, polite, and truthful.

Our goal is to establish that tourists are knowledgeable, technically well equipped with sophisticated tools to document our adventures, able to defend our-selves legally and not easy mordida targets. Try it-but always be polite and understanding that these cops are people too with their own problems and reasons to justify corruption in their mind from ultra wealthy passerbys.

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
My greater concern is placing the accused & the accuser in a potentially volatile face-to-face situation. The risk is simply more than I'd be willing to take for fear of personal retribution. You just got the guy fired....how the hell do you think he's going to react if he sees you on the street 10 minutes or 10 days from now?


Legit concerns, *****, although I doubt your evidence and testimonial will get him fired.
He, and his officer brothers, will never forget your efforts to ruin him and your future in your community will be dismal and unprotected.
Quote:
IMO, there is a slight chance that an e-mail blizzard MIGHT possibly gain enough attention for someone somewhere to look into the allegations, but from everything I heard today, it'd be on par with a snowball's chance in hell.


Pure joke.
Quote:
And yes, I did point out the obvious that this activity in Constitucion affects all points south on the Peninsula, for all vehicular tourism....not just Constitucion!



That is the Rosetta Stone for solving this problem. Involve the businesses and point out their losses.



Good points and efforts, *****. Thanks.

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by BajaNomad]

longlegsinlapaz - 7-5-2010 at 07:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
well thought out, makes alot of sense, you have alot more experience than I do in this matters.

but it really doesn't address unformed travelers that do not read this forum, some thing needs to be done,, this is not acceptable for any one other than the police and the politicians in CC. that are complacent to this extortion


Actually, I've never been stopped in Constitucion, but then I haven't driven north for 6-7 years. Prior to that maybe 12-15 trips both directions over the years. I believe this problem has escalated in the fairly recent past. I would hope if enough people do make an effort to follow "official complaint procedures" the Juridico guys would get tired of dealing with a constant parade of gringos in their office, the entire police force would eventually turn over (if they do indeed fire these guys) & the word would get out, making driving through Constitucion better for all whether they read Baja Nomad or not....well, except for the underpaid cops!:(

Extortion is extortion....whether it's $20 pesos or $500. They still win the game even if you play it cute & tell them it's for soda or cerveza. When their actions stop benefiting them, then it'll have to stop....:O or escalate to armed robbery or violence.:(

Iflyfish - 7-5-2010 at 08:03 PM

Great discussion, I'm back, great wedding!!

I have briefly read the thread and appreciate all of the good thinking and efforts that people have made regarding the extortion in Ciudad Constitution.

I have a ton to do unpacking etc. but will get back to this tomorrow. I have not yet had my letter translated, but it is in the works. I have quoted many examples of people being shaken down in CC and have included them in my letter. I will add those I have found in the most recent posts.

Again my goal is for us to generate ideas and to take actions that MIGHT impact this situation that affects ALL US CITIZENS traveling on the ONLY FEDERAL HIGHWAY connecting Baja N and Baja S. We must all protect our own personal safety and I well know that graft and corruption is endemic in Mexico, it is more hidden but certainly exists in the USofA. We are still puking oil into the Gulf due to corrupt practices.

I appreciate those who have connections using them. I appreciate people talking about this, creating a buzz. There are excellent recommendations here as to how to deal directly with this when it occurs. This is very useful and helpful information. I particularly appreciate the advice to stay calm and clear, get name, badge number etc. and ask for the ticket and go to the PD and pay there. There does seem to be some consensus about this way of addressing the issue on a personal level.

It also appears that IF there is to be an impact on this issue on a macro level it will need to come from local business people and "from above". This is where personal connections MAY be important, it is often who you know that counts in a system like this. Creating public awareness does no harm and may do some good. You make news when you shed light on the problem. Shed light.

I will add to the list of contact people those mentioned since my last post and will include the stories of extortion as well.

I appreciate all of the thought that is going into this and the actions that people are taking to address this. There is excellent information in this thread and I am glad that it is still alive and others are doing something about this.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
that is really so funny more BS mordida. give me a break who in their right mind would go for that,


I don't know................I've laughed at this Sindicatura joke for a while. There are some here who swear by it....for no real reason. Not one of them can relate a positive result from a report to the agency.

I see it as the Suggestion Box in the cartoons that is right above a trash can.
Anyone who falls for this scam has no buisness being on the road down here.

Iflyfish - 7-5-2010 at 08:12 PM

boe4fun

I was greatly encouraged by your post, you do such wonderful work helping the people of Baja, my hat is off to you. It is this sort of thinking that I have been encouraging people to do, think what YOU can do.

Have you considered contacting these people BEFORE you go to express your very real concern that you MAY be stopped in CC? It is clear that you are running a gauntlet there, even if you are not stopped.

Longlegs,

""Each police station has a Juridico (legal area) within the PD. That individual is an abagado of the traffic department & part of his role is to help people in case of abuse by a policeman. They will not accept phone calls, letters or e-mails after the fact, they will only act on face-to-face interview basis."

I am grateful that you have taken the time to go down to your local police department to inquire as to what is the legitimate way to address this issue when it occurs. We have from your post one more piece of the puzzle, there is a person in each department whose job it is to protect the interests of the accused and to address extortion, even though it is highly entrenched and they might also be on the take. You have taken some tome to DO something about this and at least one more person in the system is aware that Nomads are concerned about this issue that affects ALL of us who travel from N to S Baja. Thank you.

Iflyfish

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by Iflyfish]

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 08:14 PM

This is important


[Edited on 7-6-2010 by gnukid]

gnukid - 7-5-2010 at 08:19 PM

Super important

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 08:25 PM

Oh, yeah....about this Sindicatura joke................Some think the window sticker or whatever the F it is has an intimidation auora to it. Like a cop will give wide berth to the barer of this "Don't Mess With Me" decal.
It is so naive and arrogant that anyone could take that much comfort and protection from a decal. Especially under the circumstances.

Iflyfish - 7-5-2010 at 08:34 PM

gnukid,

Yup.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 7-5-2010 at 08:42 PM

Business owners in and south of CC, along with their shrinking revenues, is all that will stop this.
If you guys persist trying to co-opt and ally your enemy, the government agencies.....you'll get nowhere.

If you make the effort to affect your friends, resort business owners and operators....explain to them their losses and reason for their voice and assistance............you'll win.

I'll keep saying this till I'm blue in the face.

k-rico - 7-6-2010 at 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I'll keep saying this till I'm blue in the face.


Please take a video of the event. :tumble:

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-6-2010 at 05:46 AM












shari - 7-6-2010 at 07:22 AM

I would like to take this opportunity to commend our local police force for being such nice people who take underage kids home at the 10:00 curfew, drive drunks home when they confiscate their cars, escort nomads to find our casa, skateboard in front of the cop shop, and my latest favorite kindness is....we got stopped out in front of the comandancia so that this kind cop could wipe down our dirty windsheild for us with a huge smile.

(photo removed in case he gets in trouble with his superiors)

Just wanted to present the other side of the peso.....and now back to your regular scheduled programming.

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by shari]

DENNIS - 7-6-2010 at 07:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
I would like to take this opportunity to commend our local police force for being such nice people who take underage kids home at the 10:00 curfew, drive drunks home when they confiscate their cars, escort nomads to find our casa, skateboard in front of the cop shop, and my latest favorite kindness is....we got stopped out in front of the comandancia so that this kind cop could wipe down our dirty windsheild for us with a huge smile.

Just wanted to present the other side of the peso.....and now back to your regular scheduled programming.



Isn't that nice. I'll bet that driver didn't have a seven day beard and bloodshot eyes though.
I'll keep my disguise handy when I hit town. :biggrin:

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 07:47 AM

Shari

Now that's a real public servant!! Gotta love Asuncion! For this sort of service I would gladly tip!

Iflyfish

rhintransit - 7-6-2010 at 08:00 AM

El Juncalito again...another local hit up. this one didn't know about the traffic mordida so he paid 500 en route to La Paz (taking someone to the airport) and got stopped again coming back the same day. he said to the cop...hey, I gave this morning! the cop said, so where's the other person who was with you? we didn't recognize you.... they are observant apparently but they let him go on the return trip.

DENNIS - 7-6-2010 at 08:16 AM

This routine is infectous. The police hear about the money being made without risk in one location and they want on the bandwagon. If it isn't stopped, it will get worse.
A little bit of mordida has always been an issue, but now the cops seem to be competeing for loot.

boe4fun - 7-6-2010 at 09:17 AM

Hey Shari, You're right on target about the police in BA. One afternoon I was taking a siesta and I heard Shelley talking from outside the 5th wheel. I opened the curtain a looked out to see a yellow and black police pickup parked on the bluff road by Campo Sirena, and a male and female officer both talking to Shelley, who was sitting under the awning reading a book and relaxing. My first instinct was "Oh boy, here we go" thinking that the cops were looking for mordida. I got up and went out to see what was going on, only to find out that the male officer, Carlos(?) just stopped by to show Shelley where the police station was and to inform her that someone was there 24 - 7 if she needed ANYTHING! He stopped by a few times just to say hi and to practice his english. Great town - great people - and soon good roads too!
Iflyfish, Before we travel down for each clinic, I request letters from the La Balandra Rotary Club, as well as letters from any other governmental agencies that our contacts can obtain for us (e.g., Office of Special Education of Baja Sur, Mayor's or Governor's office, etc.). These are, more or less, letters of introduction for the volunteers who are driving down for a particular clinic. The letters indicate who we are, what we're doing down there, what the parts/supplies are to be used for (for Aduana). We show these letters upon entering the country, at all military inspection stops, and, if pulled over, to any police officers. I have already emailed my contacts in La Paz regarding what is going on in CC to see if they can use any political clout they have to remedy the situation.

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by boe4fun]

a little bit more service than wished

Mulegena - 7-6-2010 at 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Shari

Now that's a real public servant!! Gotta love Asuncion! For this sort of service I would gladly tip!

Iflyfish


Mick parked on the wrong side of the road on the main drag in Asuncion. I told him not to, this wasn't England, blahblahblah, but there was no parking near the grocery store...

Anyway, I got out and walked down the street and hadn't gone a half-block before a car full of cops slowed down and very politely explained in their best English that my car was parked the wrong way, etc...

and as they drove away the driver blew me a kiss!

Bahia Asuncion is indeed a friendly town!

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 01:03 PM

I am taking the liberty to post a comment by Baja&Back on another thread on this subject. One Nomad has reported that this strategy has been successful when they were stopped for extortion by police in Ciudad Constitution. Below is a partial quote from his post.

"If you are hit up in Constitucion, get the patrollman's number or vehicle #, & date & hour. Phone direct to Sr. Villalejos, Sub-director de Policia, at 613-100-1910......
BTW: Give Misiones RV a try. Park is immaculately clean, pool is filled, new palapa restaurant featuring Patty's Scampi Diablo. Several inexpensive rooms as well. Km 116."

I would concur about both the park and Scampi, delicious and a real oasis in Baja.

I am still awaiting the translation of my letter. Some are reporting that they are not being extorted, others are reporting that they are. It would appear that the problem still exists.

Thank you boe4fun for allerting your contacts in Baja about this problem. What we Nomads have going for us is a wealth of experience, friends and the power of communication and it is time we use it. This is an opportunity for all of us to band together and see if we can make a real change. As a group we spend a lot of money and are involved in numerous charitable activities in Baja, a place we all love, and are an essential part of the economy. We have power, the issue is how best to use it.

See the other thread for one Nomad's experience successfully confronting the extortion in Ciudad Constitution using the method Baja&Back posted.

Iflyfishbetweentiltingatwindmillsandwillbuybaja&backthefirstround!

desertcpl - 7-6-2010 at 01:18 PM

how do I do that, baja&back

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 01:35 PM

Google Search: Sr. Villalejos, Sub-director de Policia

http://www.google.com/search?q=Sr.+Villalejos%2C+Sub-directo...

Information is power.

destertcpl,
read account on the other thread.

What I am gathering is to
Come to a complete stop at ALL intersections, look both ways to make sure no pedestrians in cross walks. Follow the 25mph speed limit. If stopped do the following:
1. stay calm
2. ask for name and badge number, write these down, do not surrender drivers license
3. let cop know you are calling Sr. Villalejos, Sub-director de Policia, at 613-100-1910
4. insist that you go to the station NOW and deal with the fine
5. Since the police office is reportedly closed on Sunday, travel thru Ciudad Constitution on M-Sat.
6. remain calm, confident and clear. Follow thru.
7. Let every one you know that there is a serious problem with police extortion on the ONLY highway that connects Baja N with Baja S and that each day the city of Ciudad Constitution loses thousands of dollars in lost revenue because of this.

Iflyfish

[Edited on 7-6-2010 by Iflyfish]

[Edited on 7-7-2010 by BajaNomad]

gallesram - 7-6-2010 at 02:16 PM

I was just driving through Constitution on Friday, July 2 from La Paz to Mulege. I had read a posting on a different message board about this issue and had printed the name and telephone number of the police chief (Sr. Villalejos). I got pulled over at the last traffic light (almost made it without any problems) and immediately pulled out the information with the phone number. The policeman and I got into it about his badge number (he refused to give it to me) and my license (I refused to give it to him). Instead, I recited the name of Sr. Villalejos and called the number from my cell. Unfortunately, the call didn't go through the first few times but finally it did. That seemed to be enough for the cop; he let me go with a "warning" and I didn't have to pay the dreaded mordida. I never did reach Sr. Villalejos, by the way.

Every situation is different, of course, and in retrospect maybe I was a little too aggressive; but I was pretty mad! The name and phone number of Villalejos seemed to work; next time I'd probably just call the number without the back and forth about the license and the badge (we did that for a good five minutes). I also agreed to go to the police station but he didn't seem interested in that.

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 03:27 PM

Gallesram,

For a newbie, you done good!!! I appreciate your taking the time to share your experience with other Nomads. This group exists in part to provide support to other Nomads when the situation calls for it. There have been many instances over the years where Nomads helping Nomads have made the difference.

Stories like you have just told us help all of us sort out how to deal with this problem and your time is appreciated. We may be tilting at windmills, but there is enough of us to sometimes make a real difference, I know we have provided each other and the people of Baja with very generous and practical support and we are greatly appreciated by the wonderful people of Baja.

As this story emerges I hope others will share their experiences dealing with Police Extortion in Ciudad Constitution, the ONLY Federal road that connects N and S Baja.

My hope is that other Nomads will continue to provide us with information, inform the necessary people and increase public awareness of the real economic cost of this criminal behavior on the part of police in this city. Businesses lose thousands of dollars every week when these public employees steal from US Citizens and the entire community suffers because of this.

Please give our business to this wonderful RV park and restaurant. They have been very helpful to Nomads and are important members of this community. Mrsfish and I have stayed there and it is a real oasis in Baja. The plantings alone are worth the stop, the birding is fabulous and Patty and Jaime are wonderful hosts. This RV Park is also found in the Church's Camping and RVing in Baja, a very good guide to RV Parks in Baja.

Let them know of your experiences and keep them posted on both your positive and negative experiences in Ciudad Constitution. I will be forwarding them a link to this thread. I know they are concerned and good citizens of Ciudad Constitution and this extortion affects them directly. Caravans have been cancelled that would normally stop at their place and thousands of dollars are lost each day by US Citizens being scared from going thru this town. Mrsfish and I love this RV Park and it's owners and will not go south of Guerro Negro this winter if this does not stop.

Misiones RV Park
Highway 1 Km. 213
Ciudad Constitucion, Baja California Sur, Mexico.

Tel/Fax: (from US) 011-52-613-132-1103

E-mail: info@misionesrvpark.com

Owners: Jaime and Patty Briceno

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 03:57 PM

I have sent the following letter to Patty Briceno at Misiones RV Park

Hi Patty, you may not remember me but my wife and I had the great pleasure of staying with you on our last trip down the Baja. You and I shared some wonderful time together listening to music and you shared some great Female Mexican singers with me, many that I had never heard. My wife photographed many species of birds that live in your wonderful park. We look forward to eating with you again. We loved staying with you and looked forward to staying with you again this winter when we again had planned to drive down the Baja.

Unfortunately I have some bad news to share with you. I am a member of Baja Nomads, a great group of people who share a love of Baja. There are many on this site who make extraordinary contributions to Baja and it's people. They don't just spend money, though they do indeed do that, they also contribute their time and energy to the people of Baja and did so during the horrible hurricane that did so much damage in Ciudad Constitution. The Baja Nomad site was a critical link for people during that crisis and many before. Nomads will be there for the next disaster also, as well as for enjoying all that Baja has to offer.

There has been many very bad experiences being reported about the criminal behavior of police in Ciudad Constitution who have been extorting money from US Citizens who travel through your fine town. I am providing you with a link to this site and thread so you can see for yourself what is happening. This mordida is driving away good people who would stop in your town and is costing your town thousands of pesos per day. I would estimate that I would spend between $100 - $350 if I were to spend two nights in your RV Park, eat out in town, hire a guide to take me fishing/whale watching and fill my vehicle with gas.

Using this conversion site
http://www.xe.com/ucc/
100.00 USD = 1,288.74 MXN
350.00 USD = 4,510.56 MXN

So conservatively speaking my two night stay in Ciudad Constitution would net business in your town between 1,288.74 - 4,510.56 pesos. That is serious money to lose to small time thugs who is hitting me up for 20% of what I might spend there.

Ciudad Constitution sits on the ONLY Federal highway the connects Baja Norte and Baja Sur. Any US Citizen who wishes to travel south of CC has no choice but to drive thru the gauntlet of criminal police in your city and many are choosing not to do so.

Nomads are your friends and friends of Baja and need what ever support you and other good people in your community can do to stop these acts of police extortion. I hope you can help us to deal with this issue so we can all again feel comfortable visiting and spending time in Ciudad Constitution.

Any suggestions or recommendations that you might have for us about how to deal with this very serious problem would also be greatly appreciated. There have been over 250 postings on this thread and it has been read over 10,000 times and still counting. There is now a second thread that has been started regarding Police Extortion in Ciudad Constitution. I will provide you with a link to the first thread and you can easily navigate the site to find the other thread.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=46302

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 7-6-2010 at 04:07 PM

I just received this email from ACS, Tijuana

Dear Sir,

Thank you for informing the consulate about these incidents occurring in Ciudad Constitution. We would be able to reach out to the local government, but would require more information. Would you be able to supply data on specific incidents that have occurred in the last week, especially the date, time, and location?

American Citizen Services

US Consulate General Tijuana

ACSTijuana@state.gov

SBU

This email is UNCLASSIFIED.

Please send your accounts of recent cases of police extortion in Ciudad Constitution to

ACS, Tijuana

ACSTijuana@state.gov

Please also U2U a copy of your email to me at my U2U box.

Thank you, we are being heard now and it is time to ACT.

Iflyfish

elgatoloco - 7-8-2010 at 01:53 PM

Skeeter? :dudette:

Bajatripper - 7-9-2010 at 03:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elgatoloco
Skeeter? :dudette:


Do you really want to wake that sleeping giant?

kaybaj - 7-9-2010 at 04:29 PM

i hear he gits a 10% cut:lol:

kaybaj - 7-9-2010 at 06:43 PM

:P

fishabductor - 7-15-2010 at 04:02 PM

bump for Skeets party!!

Skeet/Loreto - 7-15-2010 at 04:49 PM

Hey! Would it noit be great to have a Grand Nomad party in Constitution!~!
We could all bring Jackest, I would get the Doctors from the Hospitaqls together, my good masonic Brothers would help out and just think the Kids would benefit!!

Please think about it.!

Skeet

Iflyfish - 7-15-2010 at 08:28 PM

I'm all in, put me in coach, as soon as the Extortion of US Citizens by the Police of Ciudad Constitution ceases. I would LOVE to do that!! Just that! Great idea. For once we are on the same page.

Let me know when the Extortion stops and I will be most happy to bring Jackets and other stuff of use to the good people of CC. I am certain that others would be similarly inclined. Let us know when you can assure us that no US Citizens will again be extorted in Ciudad Constitution.

If you are stopped by police in Ciudad Constitution and threatened with a ticket for something you did not do then please report the details to:

American Citizen Services

US Consulate General Tijuana

ACSTijuana@state.gov

If you are stopped by a policeman in CC and they try to extort money from you , this approach that has been used successfully to stop this crime.

Come to a complete stop at ALL intersections, look both ways to make sure no pedestrians in cross walks. Follow the 18 mph speed limit. If stopped do the following:
1. stay calm, take your time
2. ask for name and badge number, write these down, do not surrender your drivers license
3. let cop know you are calling Sr. Villalejos, Sub-director de Policia, at 613-100-1910
4. insist that you go to the station NOW and deal with the fine
5. Since the police office is reportedly closed on Sunday, travel thru Ciudad Constitution on M-Sat.
6. remain calm, confident and clear. Follow thru.
7. Drive in the right hand lane and look local, don't make eye contact with a cop.
8. Let every one you know that there is a serious problem with police extortion on the ONLY highway that connects Baja N with Baja S and that each day the city of Ciudad Constitution loses thousands of dollars in lost revenue because of this.

If Skeet is able to guarantee the safety of his Nomad Amigos and that this extortion will stop, then I hope we all will honor him and the People of Ciudad Constitution by bringing them a ton of jackets.

Iflyfish

gnukid - 7-16-2010 at 01:05 PM

It was reported in local papers, there will be a march today in CdC to at 6pm on Olachea street to denounce recent cases of abuse by the Police.

DENNIS - 7-16-2010 at 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
It was reported in local papers, there will be a march today in CdC to at 6pm on Olachea street to denounce recent cases of abuse by the Police.




So...that leads me to believe the cops weren't singling out gringo tourists. Everybody is being extorted.

Timo1 - 7-16-2010 at 01:18 PM

Either that Dennis or the local merchants are missing the tourist dollars
Either way....its a good thing IMO

DENNIS - 7-16-2010 at 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Timo1
Either that Dennis or the local merchants are missing the tourist dollars
Either way....its a good thing IMO



I would much rather you were right, Tim. That would mean, I believe, all of our efforts here have had an effect.
Perhaps we'll get some feedback.

Skeet/Loreto - 7-16-2010 at 03:39 PM

Hey Fish; I hear some rumors that all of your efforts have been taken under consideration.

I hope it turns out to be True. Good Work. Let me know how much it costs on the next rip and How many Jackets you took for the Kids to the General Hospital??

Thanks for your Efforts.

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 06:29 AM

Skeet, I will indeed. I am a man of my word. If this stops I propose that you and I head up a Nomad Jacket Drive. I would love to do that with you IF the police extortion stops. I hope you will contact your friends there and ask them to support these efforts of the local people. It will be good if they know we know of their efforts and support them.

IF it stops then I would propose that we all get Baja Nomads, or Got Baja bumper stickers to display on the front of our vehicles to let the locals know who we are and bring as many jackets as we can get. I know Goodwill and Salvation Army here have a TON of them.

I will be as diligent aobut this as I have about the campaign to stop police extortion in Ciudad Constitution. I believe in positive reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement is the MOST POWERFUL way to reinforce behavior that you want. IF THIS STOPS we would want to do a drive NOW. In order to shape behavior it is important to reinforce that behavior as close as possible to the time that behavior occurs. The INTERMITTANT reinforcement is the best way to MAINTAIN that behavior.

So IF the extortion stops, then I hope we can start to bring jackets NOW and be clear that these are from NOMADS and in acknowledgement of this communities stopping the extortion of US Citizens. I would also propose that we get NOMAD bumper stickers so they know who we are.

I would also propose that we NOMADS make it a point to stop in Ciudad Constitution and spend money at local businesses, have lunch, buy gas, purchase from grocery stores, spread the wealth and at each place you spend money, tell them that you are doing so BECAUSE they stopped the Police Extortion.

It would be a great pleasure to do this WITH YOU in honor of the relationship between Ciudad Constitution and Baja Nomads.

gnukid

Please post info on the march, links, any info you can. If this is so then we have even more powerful information to use in this effort. Make News, give out public accomodations to those involved, give ribbons, report this in other forums etc. A link to this news would be very useful.

Thanks to all who have and will participate in this, now is the time to keep the pressure on, full court press. The locals need our support. We cannot let this campaign die.

We give generously to Baja and it's people, listen to your fellow Nomads and how they are hurting from this police extortion and do something to help them! Your effort does count. If we can impact this, think about what else we can do. Think about the recent break in reported on this site. There is nothing more important than our safety and together we have power, let's use it.

Keep the ball rolling, tag, you're it!!

Iflyfishandamaproudnomad

Jack Swords - 7-17-2010 at 06:55 AM

Skeet's suggestion to contact local schools is a valid one. Lost and found is usually full of jackets at schools and they are donated to Good Will. This is true all during the year, but especially now as these are cleared out for the new school year. We go down to La Paz the first of Dec. and pick up unclaimed jackets each year at the local schools. Just a phone call will let you know if there are any available. Nice thing is you get all sizes. Do try the local elementary schools. Thanks Skeet for the suggestion.

rhintransit - 7-17-2010 at 06:58 AM

it's admirable that Skeet has a personal charity, the jackets for kids thing in Constitucion, but I am not sure why getting rid of police extortion should be linked to a donation/payback to an unrelated cause on the part of those who have been abused simply because the two are geographically connected.
Nomads ARE generous to Baja and it's people. The cops in Constitucion have been exploiting gringos. I just don't see the connection. I realize that this will earn me a few more adjectives from Skeet, but they will be as fallacious as the rest.

[Edited on 7-17-2010 by rhintransit]

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:12 AM

I would suggest we bring Jackets ONLY if the police extortion stops and that we do it clearly and publically so the locals know we are supporting them stopping Police Extortion of tourists. This is not easy for them to do and we can support them in this way.

As a Licensed Clinical Social Worker many hundreds of parents have said to me, why should I give my son/daughter a treat, praise, special attention if they finish their homework, bring home good grades etc. The answer to that is that behavior is changed through reinforcement. Just like teaching your dog to roll over. You first give your dog a treat when it turns it's head, then you give another when it rolls over and each time it rolls over you repeat the treat, till you only have to give a treat every once in a while. This is called positive reinforcement and it works for humans as well as animals, one of those laws of nature.

We want the people of Ciudad Constitution to stand up against police extortion of tourists and we aught to reward, support and reinforce that behavior, it is what we want.

If the people of Ciudad Constitution are able to stop their police from extorting tourists then we as NOMADS have accomplished something very important, we have helped a community rid itself of corruption. This is what we all want in Baja. If we succeed here, we aught to spread the word that you do not mess with Nomads, who are very good to the people of Baja.

Any more questions? These are good questions and ones that need to be answered so we can be clear in how to succeed in taking on this problem of police extortion of Nomads and other US Citizens in Ciudad Constitution.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:17 AM

Jack, you are right about schools. They are a very good resource for jackets. I hope we hold off on donating UNTILL the Police extortion stops. They we should go full bore with a drive to fill their tills and jacket needs and make NEWS about it so all of Baja hears about this NOMAD project.

There may be a better charity, a more public charity that locals know about, if so we contribute to that charity, do they need an ambulance? Medical equipment? It doesn't matter what community need we address. What is important is that we support that charity AFTER the extortion stops and we tie or donations DIRECTLY and publically to their stopping of this criminal behavior on the part of their police.

Iflyfish

gnukid - 7-17-2010 at 10:14 AM

The reports about citizens protesting abuses by Police in Constitucion yesterday are purely coincidental. There are various people upset with the local police for abusing their authority, according to reports in the local news. In particular, the Ojeda family are demanding the resignation of the sub director de Seguridad Pública Municipal Miguel Ángel Romero Villalejo.

http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/se-calienta-...

And this weekend is the beginning of events, political rallies, so a march was planned at the same time. It should be noted as well, that the BCS head of Security Lenin, also made a speech where he said all men and women must come together to fight against crime and corruption.

http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/mensaje-de-l...

Today's paper reports on the situation heating up

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas/n1710851.htm

[Edited on 7-17-2010 by gnukid]

Sending in the Fly Fisherman to help those with PTSD

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-17-2010 at 10:53 AM

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:03 PM

I have used Google to translate:

CONSTITUTION, BCS comundeños .- Hundreds of citizens gathered yesterday afternoon on the Boulevard Olachea Agustin Avilés, to join the great march against police abuses committed by members of the Municipal Public Security Bureau.

Carrying various banners that read "Stop police abuse" was tortured citizens Villalejo Miguel Angel Romero, Deputy Municipal Public Security "" Say no to police violence "and" waiver Villalejo "citizens to cry only demanded justice .

The march was joined by dozens of vehicles and motorcyclists carrying legends in the windows of cars, where he said "No to impunity" and "Outside hitter Innocents" event that captured the attention of traders and customers that are located on the main avenue crossing the city.

The march was scheduled at six o'clock, started 20 minutes later, after a patrol of the Municipal Public Security Bureau, came to offer protection to citizens who demonstrated peacefully.

It was in the main square "De Armas Ignacio Zaragoza" which ended the run of the protesters, who expect this action to the mayor, Joel Villegas Ibarra, heed the call of citizenship, as well as several years ago, Dr. Joel Villegas, with local MP, led a similar march in protest against abuses of police forces.

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:06 PM

Another of the Articles translated using Google.

No truce crime
Public Safety is now an indispensable element for the development of our nation and the supremacy of institutions, therefore, the Government of the State of Baja California Sur, is due to the claim of men and women who demand an active participation in this purpose, making the State Public Security Secretary an instrument of social and institutional membership, which should generate a synergy that promotes the rule of law and legal culture.

This young institution has endeavored to make their own policies in this field implements and coordinates the Federal Government, forming special police groups, who work in the generation of intelligence, crime prevention and immediate reaction, get on the front line to combat crime in all its manifestations.

Another important aspect is the technological infraestrutucra supports police operations such as data connectivity basesde federal, state and city, plus the creation of the State Center for Confidence Control that allows members to evaluate the state system of public security, complemented by the commission of honor and jusiticia, binomial besides debugging, offers the possibility of adding better and more reliable components has been prepared to serve without hesitation even at the expense of the ultimate sacrifice.

The challenge is great and in proportion to the strong commitment and unavoidable, serve with patriotism and courage, in the interest of Public Safety Baja California Sur and our Republic.

Discipline, Honor and Loyalty.

"No Truce Against Crime."

Attentively

Mr. Lenin Giovani Rodriguez Aguilar

Secretary of Public Safety B.C.S.

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:12 PM

Another of the articles translated using Google. It looks like there is public sentiment against the police who are corrupt and this is what we want to support.

■ march against police batterers
■ It is reported the deputy director of public safety
Ciudad Constitución, BCS "Definitely the mayor of Comondú Joel Villegas Ibarra, not hard but it feels thick, as well as having serious charges against him for his relationship with alleged drug traffickers now facing social rejection by the excesses committed by agents public safety. For that reason, this Friday afternoon is calling for a march to denounce these abuses.

It all started on Monday 5 July, when public security officers accompanied a clerk of the court for an eviction diligence on a property located on the road to the ejido 5.

In an abuse of their duties, the municipal police swarmed an outright montonera to beat Ojeda Francisco Higuera Molina and Jorge Luis Espinoza, both well-known characters comundeña society, they are working people and have never had problems with anyone.

Both have already complained to the deputy director of Public Safety Municipal Villalejo Miguel Angel Romero, the use of excessive force, in addition to that caused serious injury.

This happened over a dispute about a land where there is a piedrera, which was legally acquired by the family Ojeda. However with legal tricks, now aims to remove them so they are not willing to allow, as it is a clear injustice.

For that reason, the Ojeda family is calling on citizens to march on the boulevard this Olachea after 6 pm, where he denounced the abuses committed by the municipal authority and will require new consideration of the resignation of the deputy director Michelangelo Romero Villalejo

Iflyfish - 7-17-2010 at 07:14 PM

gnukid,

Thanks for sharing these articles with us. I am sorry for the horrible translatin but one can gather that the community is upset with Police excesses and abuse. We are on the same page with these folks. How best to support and ally with them?

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 7-18-2010 at 02:37 PM

Flyfish:

I am impressed with your desire to stop ,what you call Abuse and another Country calls "Mordiada".

I would not have taken it so offensive if I had not had so many good Friends in Constitution.

What I as a long time Guest of Baja Sur resent is the complete Audicity of People like you who come to Baja and insist that the People change to your way of thinking __Just for Money>????

People like you, being raised with the Idea of Money being the Number One thing in your life, seem to go to all extremes to get your way and use your Money as the Power.

What happened to Honesty
To Honor

to
Truth

Intergity


On Your Part, Not the Mexicano.

What gives you the Right , to even think , that you can force another Countries people to live as you do and by your Standards

I sincerely hope that one day you will be in the Position of needing a Mexicano Friend.

Skeet.

Iflyfish - 7-18-2010 at 04:57 PM

Skeet,

It seems that the people of Ciudad Constitution are themselves taking on the issue of the police corruption in their community. It would appear that my concerns are shared by many Mexicans, including many living with this problem.

I could not wish for better Mexican friends.

Iflyfish

Posting on this thread per Dennis

lookingandbuying - 7-18-2010 at 05:27 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Posts: 12648
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline


posted on 7-18-2010 at 10:52 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by lookingandbuying
This past weekend I was in TJ and met a gentleman with the State Secretary of Tourism. His name was Arturo Martinez Esquer and he said he covers all of Baja.




It might be a good idea to post this on the Ciudad Constitición thread as well.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=46302&pag...



[Edited on 7-18-2010 by DENNIS]


Has any tryed this?



This past weekend I was in TJ and met a gentleman with the State Secretary of Tourism. His name was Arturo Martinez Esquer and he said he covers all of Baja.

Arturo seemed to be a very serious person and was highly motivated to help any American visiting Mexico. They have set-up the 078 number from cell phones that are staffed with people that speak both English and Spanish. We actually tested the 078 process by calling when he was in our presence and it at least seemed that they could be of help to you while visiting Mexico. They know they have a long way to go in correcting the problems within their country and they claim to want to do so, one by one.

I don't know if this current situation being discussed on the board is up the alley of the State Secretariat of Tourism, but if it happened to me, I would at least give them a try. The LAST thing they want is negative things happening while people are visiting Mexico. The other ways to reach Arturo are as follows:

Phone- from U.S. 011 52 (664) 973-0424

E-mail- amartineze@baja.gob.mx

Maybe many think I am naive in trying to fix problems with this approach, but, I figure why not at least attempt to use the resources they have available.

Am so sorry for what happened to this family.

Hopefully, this agency and Aurturo can help with things of this nature.

mtgoat666 - 7-18-2010 at 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Skeet,

It seems that the people of Ciudad Constitution are themselves taking on the issue of the police corruption in their community. It would appear that my concerns are shared by many Mexicans, including many living with this problem.

I could not wish for better Mexican friends.

Iflyfish


fishy:
you and dennis are the leaders of the crusading nomads, didn't one of you care enough to go to protest?
is this a case of all bark and no bite?

Which standards?

Dave - 7-18-2010 at 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
What gives you the Right , to even think , that you can force another Countries people to live as you do and by your Standards


You mean honesty, honor, truth and integrity?

Those standards?

Or would you consider the Mexican culture incapable?

Iflyfish - 7-18-2010 at 09:39 PM

mtgoat666

You wrote:
"........didn't one of you care enough to go to protest?"

I appreciate the encouragement that you offer however it is against the law for me participate in a protest in Mexico and I respect the laws of Mexico. It is not illegal for me to encourage victims of police extortion to report that crime. Even if I were living in Mexico it would not be illegal for me to encourage American Tourists to report police extortion. This is the policy of the government of both the states of Baja and the Federal Government of Mexico.

If we all do what we can do then Maybe, and it's a big Maybe, this issue will be addressed. I am not holding my breath.

I was responding to the implication in Skeet's email that only meddling American's are concerned about this problem and that honest, hard working Mexican's are not. He also implied that my concern was about the possibility of losing money to police corruption while traveling through CC. I am far more concerned about the loss of revenue that local businesses lose when their police department extorts and intimidates tourists.

This post was intended to respond to Skeet who said the following:

"What I as a long time Guest of Baja Sur resent is the complete Audicity of People like you who come to Baja and insist that the People change to your way of thinking __Just for Money>????" and What gives you the Right , to even think , that you can force another Countries people to live as you do and by your Standards"

I was pointing out in my post that not all Mexicans support police corruption or extortion of Tourists and that the people of Ciudad Constitution are themselves also concerned enough about this problem to be doing something themselves just as I have been doing what I can do.

I hope that the people of CC are successful at eliminating the corruption that they are protesting. That would be very good for them in the long run if it is not too late and if the corruption has not grown out of proportion as it has in many other states in Mexico. For all of us who love Baja, I hope that this is not the case.

I have learned that if one sees graffiti, that the wise thing to do is to eliminate it immediatly, paint over it. If you do not do this then the graffiti often escalates and so does other associated criminal behavior. If not addressed early criminal behavior can become institutionalized and normative.

IflyfishandIbite

Iflyfish - 7-18-2010 at 09:42 PM

ELINVESTIG8R

Please pay the receptionist and schedule another appointment for next week.

Thank you.

Iflyfish

toneart - 7-18-2010 at 09:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
mtgoat666

You wrote:
"........didn't one of you care enough to go to protest?"

I appreciate the encouragement that you offer however it is against the law for me participate in a protest in Mexico and I respect the laws of Mexico. It is not illegal for me to encourage victims of police extortion to report that crime. Even if I were living in Mexico it would not be illegal for me to encourage American Tourists to report police extortion. This is the policy of the government of both the states of Baja and the Federal Government of Mexico.

If we all do what we can do then Maybe, and it's a big Maybe, this issue will be addressed. I am not holding my breath.

I was responding to the implication in Skeet's email that only meddling American's are concerned about this problem and that honest, hard working Mexican's are not. He also implied that my concern was about the possibility of losing money to police corruption while traveling through CC. I am far more concerned about the loss of revenue that local businesses lose when their police department extorts and intimidates tourists.

This post was intended to respond to Skeet who said the following:

"What I as a long time Guest of Baja Sur resent is the complete Audicity of People like you who come to Baja and insist that the People change to your way of thinking __Just for Money>????" and What gives you the Right , to even think , that you can force another Countries people to live as you do and by your Standards"

I was pointing out in my post that not all Mexicans support police corruption or extortion of Tourists and that the people of Ciudad Constitution are themselves also concerned enough about this problem to be doing something themselves just as I have been doing what I can do.

I hope that the people of CC are successful at eliminating the corruption that they are protesting. That would be very good for them in the long run if it is not too late and if the corruption has not grown out of proportion as it has in many other states in Mexico. For all of us who love Baja, I hope that this is not the case.

I have learned that if one sees graffiti, that the wise thing to do is to eliminate it immediatly, paint over it. If you do not do this then the graffiti often escalates and so does other associated criminal behavior. If not addressed early criminal behavior can become institutionalized and normative.

IflyfishandIbite


Iflyfishinadditiontobeingontherightsideofthemoon-

I commend you for your efforts and your right thinking. You have my support! You know the restrictions of Mexican law and how it applies to non citizens. So, what you are trying to do does not violate the law and yet it is the moral thing to do. I believe you/we can affect change and put an end to this destructive behavior that not only effects foreigners who have to transit the town, but it also effects the economy and self respect of the community.

Keep it up and best of luck!

Tony

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-19-2010 at 03:53 AM

Aye-Aye Iflyfish, I'm scheduled for 1:00 PM.

mtgoat666 - 7-19-2010 at 04:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
mtgoat666

You wrote:
"........didn't one of you care enough to go to protest?"

I appreciate the encouragement that you offer however it is against the law for me participate in a protest in Mexico and I respect the laws of Mexico.



have you ever heard of civil disobedience?

all bark, no bite.

man up!

Iflyfish - 7-19-2010 at 07:09 AM

mtgoat666

You can have the 2:00 right after the person who wants the 1:00. Confidentiality prevents me from mentioning his name. Bring a note pad and some kleenex. Anger is often a cover for saddness and grief.

As to the "manning up" bit. Don't worry, homophobia is normal, based upon ignorance, rejection of those impulses in ones self, and can be overcome.

Never know what you might learn from reading Nomads. I just learned that the fruit of cactus, called Tuna in Mexico, is what is called the prickly pear in the USofA. I ate one once as a kid in California and got a mouth full of those tiny spines and that put me off them till I recently had a cactus fruit margarita, you should try one. They mellow you out and are cheaper than Prozac or Zoloft.

Iflyfish

mtgoat666 - 7-19-2010 at 07:51 AM

iflyfishandtypeonmycomputerbecauseiamnotmaneoughtojoininprotestsincuidad :lol:

Bill Collector - 7-19-2010 at 03:30 PM

A friend just sent this asking if I would post it on Nomads. Here it is:

On Tuesday, July 16, my husband and I were on our way to the States. It was about 7:15 a.m. and we were approaching the main part of Constitution. After reading of others’ experiences on the BPE, we agreed that we should be aware of our surroundings and to carefully observe all traffic rules. As we passed the third light we saw a police truck coming from the opposite direction. We saw the driver take a hard look at our truck and I said to Jim, “Get ready for the bite.” It was less then a minute and we could see the flashing lights a block away and then they were behind us, motioning us to pull over. We were waiting for a red light to change and when it did, we turned onto the side street. We had done nothing wrong and, even if we had, they had no time to see anything! Jim got out of the car and put on his shirt and asked “Problema?’ The officer who was driving got out and said, “Yes, infraction.” Jim, still outside the car, said “Oh no!” and waving his finger, added, “No infraction!” The officer approached the car, Jim got back inside, and I pulled out the camera. We went on the offense because we were so outraged at the complete transparency of their attempt to extort money. I told the officer he knew we had done nothing wrong, but he insisted. He mentioned the police station and big problems for us “if we go there,” but we said, “Let’s go!” He told us it was closed and we told him we would go there and wait. We were such a thorn in his side, he finally went back to his partner for a brief consult, then returned to our car and gave back Jim’s license, all the while telling us how he felt, using words I did not understand. I speak enough Spanish to be understood, but from the start he was using unfamiliar words. I believe he was intentionally making it more difficult to be understood. For twenty-five years we have always enjoyed the town, and Jim would stop for Menudo on a regular basis, but until this problem is solved, we won’t be spending money there.

Jim and Liz Wilmarth

Los Barriles

Iflyfish - 7-19-2010 at 03:42 PM

Bill Collector

Thank you very much for this VERY HELPFUL POST! It sounds like you were very successful using the strategy we have been formulating here on NOMADS. We are grateful for all of the input that has helped us generate a formula that WORKS!! Kudos to you for using this approach and telling us how it worked for you. Success breeds success.

If you are stopped by police in Ciudad Constitution and threatened with a ticket for something you did not do then please report the details to:

American Citizen Services

US Consulate General Tijuana

ACSTijuana@state.gov

If you are stopped by a policeman in CC and they try to extort money from you , this approach that has been used successfully to stop this crime.

Come to a complete stop at ALL intersections, look both ways to make sure no pedestrians in cross walks. Follow the 18 mph speed limit. If stopped do the following:
1. stay calm, take your time
2. ask for name and badge number, write these down, do not surrender your drivers license
3. let cop know you are calling Sr. Villalejos, Sub-director de Policia, at 613-100-1910
4. insist that you go to the station NOW and deal with the fine
5. Since the police office is reportedly closed on Sunday, travel thru Ciudad Constitution on M-Sat.
6. remain calm, confident and clear. Follow thru.
7. Drive in the right hand lane and look local, don't make eye contact with a cop.
8. Let every one you know that there is a serious problem with police extortion on the ONLY highway that connects Baja N with Baja S and that each day the city of Ciudad Constitution loses thousands of dollars in lost revenue because of this.

WELL DONE!! I hope others will report their experiences on this thread.

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

Iflyfish:tumble:

BajaOkie - 7-19-2010 at 05:12 PM

Good Job Jim, (Bill Collector) There is nothing worse than being accused by a uniformed officer of something you did not do. This has to stop, enough is enough. Sorry Skeet/Loreto this is wrong and it is not a cultural problem that everyone either from here or elsewhere should ever condone. It is wrong and I hope the local organized protest march this past week did draw attention to this.

Please take care and I look forward to the days when we can stop and shop in Cd. Constiticion without the fear of harassment. However, with what I now know I would not step out of my truck but I am glad all was OK for you.

PS - The "officer" that stopped me spoke perfect English until I questioned him and he changed over to some not understanderble spanish stuff. I do not know much spanish but I do understand enough and it was just for intimidation. This has to stop.
 Pages:  1    3