BajaNomad

Mark & Olivia; Playa Buenaventura

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larryC - 2-12-2012 at 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
Mike & Olivia were only leasing the land when they subleased it to a few that improved their leased lots (1991). We have slowly been picked off and now are long gone. We were given bogus leases and when Mike left Mark & Olivia tried to strong arm us into new leases. Then Munoz came along with an ultimatum, give up your rights to the improvements, get out or be sued. Now MARK who never had anything to do with the building of this beach community is showing pictures of HIS new home (what a joke). Just because he is still there doesn't give him the right to claim property that was legally paid for by wonderful people who put their trust in Mike, and then Mark & Olivia. Sure there is Munoz and his claims but why is he any different than the lies and theft that came 1st. I know most of the people that post here, and they are good & honest. I too along with all the others who invested in this dream, nightmare trusted all of these characters. We wanted to believe in these people but lies, greed and desperation won out. Now the dream is truly a nightmare and who is to blame. Surely not the people who put down their life savings . Then trusted for a chance to retire in a beautiful beach setting such as Buenaventura. I challenge Mark to tell any of you that they are owners of anything at best they lease land and that is being challenged. Have him tell you how he built anything down there. He didn't even show up until after Mike left and there have been no improvements to the beach since he left (2002). I have kept quiet to respect the last of the homeowners but there are none left. OK Mark move into someone else’s home and claim it but you can't have it both ways! You and Munoz are no different trying to claim what others have built for your own.

Thank you Mike, Mark, Olivia & Munoz your lies, cheating & greed have you right were you belong!!!!!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]



XPBRes
Do you know what ever became of Mike? I heard that he left the Pheonix fire dept under less than desireable circumstances, and then went to Baja got involved (started?)with this mess. Any idea where he is now?
Larry

goldhuntress - 2-12-2012 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by goldhuntress
@XPBRes, I thought I smelled a rat, turns out it's several! I kept wondering where is the beginning of this, when did it start? If I know that I will know what's what, maybe not legally, but morally. You answered that and I believe you. Thank you for posting and sorry you got screwed.


xpbr has made only one post ever in nomadlandia. she-he could be a regular posing anew.. or just making a special appearance to stir the pot, grind his/her axe

Your right, could be. I'm going with my gut here. I thought there was more to it and his story is like other real estate nightmares we've all heard about. It doesn't explain what's happening now but it does show that there is a even bigger picture. Plus, we all have a first post and it usually happens when something interests us enough to sign up and jump in.
Edit to say I agree with you on the drive by. So many other beautiful beach options than to go there deal with all the bad juju!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by goldhuntress]

David K - 2-12-2012 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by larryC
Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
Mike & Olivia were only leasing the land when they subleased it to a few that improved their leased lots (1991). We have slowly been picked off and now are long gone. We were given bogus leases and when Mike left Mark & Olivia tried to strong arm us into new leases. Then Munoz came along with an ultimatum, give up your rights to the improvements, get out or be sued. Now MARK who never had anything to do with the building of this beach community is showing pictures of HIS new home (what a joke). Just because he is still there doesn't give him the right to claim property that was legally paid for by wonderful people who put their trust in Mike, and then Mark & Olivia. Sure there is Munoz and his claims but why is he any different than the lies and theft that came 1st. I know most of the people that post here, and they are good & honest. I too along with all the others who invested in this dream, nightmare trusted all of these characters. We wanted to believe in these people but lies, greed and desperation won out. Now the dream is truly a nightmare and who is to blame. Surely not the people who put down their life savings . Then trusted for a chance to retire in a beautiful beach setting such as Buenaventura. I challenge Mark to tell any of you that they are owners of anything at best they lease land and that is being challenged. Have him tell you how he built anything down there. He didn't even show up until after Mike left and there have been no improvements to the beach since he left (2002). I have kept quiet to respect the last of the homeowners but there are none left. OK Mark move into someone else’s home and claim it but you can't have it both ways! You and Munoz are no different trying to claim what others have built for your own.

Thank you Mike, Mark, Olivia & Munoz your lies, cheating & greed have you right were you belong!!!!!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]



XPBRes
Do you know what ever became of Mike? I heard that he left the Pheonix fire dept under less than desireable circumstances, and then went to Baja got involved (started?)with this mess. Any idea where he is now?
Larry



It was mentioned here on Nomad that Mike passed away from cancer... back in 2003: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=2036

Santiago - 2-12-2012 at 10:01 AM

OK, here is what I’ve surmised; help me fill in the holes:
1. The world was dark, void and without form.
2. So god set to work and made this little bay.
3. Fast Forward to post-revolution and some Italian guy owns the bay.
4. Munoz ‘buys’ the beach from said Italian guy; and per Wooosh’s guess has good title, the best.
5. Munoz leases all? or part? of beach to a Mexican (Olivia) and her husband/boyfriend Mike.
6. Somebody, and I don’t know who or when, builds a hotel and a restaurant. And when I say ‘build’, I mean who paid for the material and labor and who was expecting to get the benefit of these businesses?
7. Somehow/way, Mike and Olivia have at the very least a signed lease for the restaurant and maybe other parts of the beach.
8. Mike and Olivia sub-lease to others who build houses, these houses are on the opposite side of the hotel from the restaurant/bar. I am led to believe that these sub-leasees THOUGHT they were leasing from the owners of the property but were not.
9. Munoz, who probably is aware of all this, waits until the homes are built and furnished and then contacts the dreamers and tells them to get the f*ck off his property.
10. Sh*t hits the fan, people come after Mike & Olivia and Mike bails.
11. Mark shows up to continue the fight.
12. Olivia files for and gets a beach concession for the area where the café/bar is.
13. Mark and Olivia take over one of the houses as their own; I mean, why not; they’re just sitting there.
14. Olivia (and I am just guessing here) starts doing the Mexican version of ownership per possession and improvement, squatter’s rights and all that. She must have been a little bit successful here given the fear shown by Munoz.
15. Munoz goes apesh*t and starts fighting dirty, or even dirtier.


There is only one access road that serves both restaurant and hotel. This tells me that both were built by the same party with the concept that both buildings were on a single piece of property or lot and therefore no subdivision has taken place unless the person who ended up with the restaurant lot is very stupid as they now would have no guaranteed access. Or they are being stupid like a fox.
Will somebody who actually knows something fill in the blanks to the above timeline? Thanks

These kinds of stories are entertaining, but drive me nucking futs. Do we all just totally toss our common sense when we cross the border?

mtgoat666 - 2-12-2012 at 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
OK, here is what I’ve surmised; help me fill in the holes:
1. The world was dark, void and without form.
2. So god set to work and made this little bay.
3. Fast Forward to post-revolution and some Italian guy owns the bay.
4. Munoz ‘buys’ the beach from said Italian guy; and per Wooosh’s guess has good title, the best.
5. Munoz leases all? or part? of beach to a Mexican (Olivia) and her husband/boyfriend Mike.
6. Somebody, and I don’t know who or when, builds a hotel and a restaurant. And when I say ‘build’, I mean who paid for the material and labor and who was expecting to get the benefit of these businesses?
7. Somehow/way, Mike and Olivia have at the very least a signed lease for the restaurant and maybe other parts of the beach.
8. Mike and Olivia sub-lease to others who build houses, these houses are on the opposite side of the hotel from the restaurant/bar. I am led to believe that these sub-leasees THOUGHT they were leasing from the owners of the property but were not.
9. Munoz, who probably is aware of all this, waits until the homes are built and furnished and then contacts the dreamers and tells them to get the f*ck off his property.
10. Sh*t hits the fan, people come after Mike & Olivia and Mike bails.
11. Mark shows up to continue the fight.
12. Olivia files for and gets a beach concession for the area where the café/bar is.
13. Mark and Olivia take over one of the houses as their own; I mean, why not; they’re just sitting there.
14. Olivia (and I am just guessing here) starts doing the Mexican version of ownership per possession and improvement, squatter’s rights and all that. She must have been a little bit successful here given the fear shown by Munoz.
15. Munoz goes apesh*t and starts fighting dirty, or even dirtier.


There is only one access road that serves both restaurant and hotel. This tells me that both were built by the same party with the concept that both buildings were on a single piece of property or lot and therefore no subdivision has taken place unless the person who ended up with the restaurant lot is very stupid as they now would have no guaranteed access. Or they are being stupid like a fox.
Will somebody who actually knows something fill in the blanks to the above timeline? Thanks

These kinds of stories are entertaining, but drive me nucking futs. Do we all just totally toss our common sense when we cross the border?


you forgot the turtle soup and narco trafficing of olivia... need t0 follow all plot threads.. makes a more interesting tale... just saying :lol:

Pescador - 2-12-2012 at 10:17 AM

And following Santiago's assessment.
Why was everything quiet and uneventful for such a long time and then suddenly Munoz thinks he needs to send down gun toting goons to straighten things out? I have seen the condition of the hotel and these guys do not strike me as being what is needed to "clean up the hotel".
The articles in the paper basically mean nothing at this point since it is just one man's blowing off steam. When charges are filed why not go for Calderon too, just because you name the director of State Police and the Governor, does not really signify anything except that your attorney has a big pencil and is looking to get lots of attention.
I doubt that we will ever get a clear story of who owned what and who started what lease. It is a shame that three beautiful houses are sitting there with two vacant and crumbling and one occupied by Mark.
Hopefully this thing will go to court and everyone gets their say in the matter and they settle this thing once and for all.

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
OK, here is what I’ve surmised; help me fill in the holes:
1. The world was dark, void and without form.
2. So god set to work and made this little bay.
3. Fast Forward to post-revolution and some Italian guy owns the bay.
4. Munoz ‘buys’ the beach from said Italian guy; and per Wooosh’s guess has good title, the best.
5. Munoz leases all? or part? of beach to a Mexican (Olivia) and her husband/boyfriend Mike.
6. Somebody, and I don’t know who or when, builds a hotel and a restaurant. And when I say ‘build’, I mean who paid for the material and labor and who was expecting to get the benefit of these businesses?
7. Somehow/way, Mike and Olivia have at the very least a signed lease for the restaurant and maybe other parts of the beach.
8. Mike and Olivia sub-lease to others who build houses, these houses are on the opposite side of the hotel from the restaurant/bar. I am led to believe that these sub-leasees THOUGHT they were leasing from the owners of the property but were not.
9. Munoz, who probably is aware of all this, waits until the homes are built and furnished and then contacts the dreamers and tells them to get the f*ck off his property.
10. Sh*t hits the fan, people come after Mike & Olivia and Mike bails.
11. Mark shows up to continue the fight.
12. Olivia files for and gets a beach concession for the area where the café/bar is.
13. Mark and Olivia take over one of the houses as their own; I mean, why not; they’re just sitting there.
14. Olivia (and I am just guessing here) starts doing the Mexican version of ownership per possession and improvement, squatter’s rights and all that. She must have been a little bit successful here given the fear shown by Munoz.
15. Munoz goes apesh*t and starts fighting dirty, or even dirtier.


There is only one access road that serves both restaurant and hotel. This tells me that both were built by the same party with the concept that both buildings were on a single piece of property or lot and therefore no subdivision has taken place unless the person who ended up with the restaurant lot is very stupid as they now would have no guaranteed access. Or they are being stupid like a fox.
Will somebody who actually knows something fill in the blanks to the above timeline? Thanks

These kinds of stories are entertaining, but drive me nucking futs. Do we all just totally toss our common sense when we cross the border?


Lots of holes. But I don't have the time or inclination to go through them all. Its a LONG and complicated mess. But here is one. A Mexican moved into the house first (why I don't know)? Mark and Olivia had him forcibly removed in December 2011 so they could take it over.

Santiago - 2-12-2012 at 10:26 AM

OK then; the tax collector every year sends out tax bills - they must go to the current owner of record - no? Who gets the bill and who pays it?

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Santiago
OK then; the tax collector every year sends out tax bills - they must go to the current owner of record - no? Who gets the bill and who pays it?


In my area in Baja Sur, anyone can go in and pay the bill as long as they know the parcel (there is no bill sent out). Maybe that is only here.

BajaNomad - 2-12-2012 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

xpbr has made only one post ever in nomadlandia. she-he could be a regular posing anew.. or just making a special appearance to stir the pot, grind his/her axe


FWIW... XPBRes appears (in multiple ways on my side of things) to not be "a regular posing anew".






[Edited on 2-12-2012 by BajaNomad]

watizname - 2-12-2012 at 10:40 AM

All right, all right, you got me. Rod Serling is alive and living "somewhere in Bahia Conception"and this is the draft of his new "reality" program. It's like stay tuned, to see what happens next. New characters popping up almost daily. Geeeesssse What a mess. Who to believe.:O:O

shari - 2-12-2012 at 11:17 AM

here is the story in a BCS online newspaper

http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/disputa-de-p...

interesting comments below the whole story.

Google Translation

Skipjack Joe - 2-12-2012 at 11:29 AM

Wow, ramuma really messed up.

Santa Rosalia, BCS-The Justice Department reports that persons were arrested forcibly entered and shooting a firearm on Sunday to an area that has a legal dispute in Conception Bay, where a hotel and restaurant Buenaventura.

As we reported to chance, people were allegedly hired by a lawyer for the city of Tijuana who identify with the name of Rafael Muñoz Martinez to dislodge the Americans who currently occupy the site.

The issue came into the hands of the consular representative of the United States in Mulege Jim Christopher, who in defense of the injured Mark J. Burbey complained to the authorities of his abuse, in making firearm shots against American tourists that were in place the previous Sunday night.

The Office of Justice advises that the site has been secured and were detained persons named Alan Perez Mario Rivera 36-year-old native of Mexico City and established in Ecatepec (Mexico State), John Banuelos Duran 40 years old from Ciudad Constitucion, Roberto Miranda Gomez 37 years of age Aréchga Oswaldo Perez, 44, (Robert and Oswaldo originating in La Paz, BCS) and Mary Elizabeth Espinoza Montano 51 years originally from the city of Tijuana.

OFFICIAL PART OF DETENTION
FACTS: On February 9, 2012, at 14:15 hours, to attend the Command Element in Santa Rosalia BCS, to support an application signed by the C. Deputy Public Investigator Common Law, to carry out the assurance of a property and / or property called "Hotel Buena Ventura" Conception Bay, located at kilometer 93.5 of the highway Mulege, Loreto BCS, arriving at the site were received by five males and one female, who attacked them verbally with big words and aggressively, so the agents tried to talk peacefully, letting them know the reason why were in the place above being attacked again with big words while they rushed to the Elements of the State Ministerial Police, proceeding to submit them and stop them with security measures and police techniques, not without strong resistance to oppose, being moved to the offices of the Attorney being available to that Authority for the relevant paperwork.

The crimes they are charged to resist: outrage and violence against public officials and institutions.

ATTORNEY RESPONSE RAFAEL MARTINEZ MUÑOZ

In today's edition of the newspaper THE BCS publishes the disagreement of the lawyer Rafael Muñoz Martinez for the arrest of their workers. He explains that the weapon used with the permission of the Ministry of Defence. Here is a fragment of the reporter's note Sarabia Porfirio Pacheco.

Aloy Aguiar Yee, Deputy Public Investigator Common Law based in Santa Rosalia, Baja California Sur and Felix Murillo, commander of the State Ministerial Police of that city and responsible elements, with extreme violence and without a search warrant or arrest warrants, went into the premises and the Hotel Buena Ventura, the afternoon of February 9, 2012 arrested six workers at the site, keeping them incommunicado.

At a press conference held yesterday afternoon in Beijing, Eduardo Barraza Garcia, a lawyer and legal representative of the owner of the land and Rafael Muñoz Martinez Hotel, denounced the violations by the authorities of the Attorney General of the State.

He added that criminal charges be filed against the person or persons responsible, since Rafael Muñoz Martinez is the rightful owner of the property and the Hotel Buena Ventura, located at kilometer 93.5 of the highway Loreto, Mulege, Baja California Sur, according to title issued by the secrete of Agrarian Reform.

"Workers have committed no crime because they were working on land owned by the employer and whether the worker Alan Perez Mario Rivera, possessed a .380 caliber firearm for guarding the house and the gun has the permission of the Ministry of National Defense. "

Woooosh - 2-12-2012 at 12:26 PM

"Wow, ramuma really messed up."

I didn't see anything new there that wasn't in the previous media releases.

:?:

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]

wessongroup - 2-12-2012 at 12:52 PM

Thanks goat for putting it ALL together .... :saint::saint:

Skipjack Joe - 2-12-2012 at 01:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
"Wow, ramuma really messed up."

I didn't see anything new there that wasn't in the previous media releases.

:?:

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]


If there's nothing there that you didn't already know than don't read it. I believe that's what you advocated we do to the Mengano news posts.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude.

surfer jim - 2-12-2012 at 01:39 PM

....this is quite a story....makes me want to go buy a timeshare in CABO.....;D

Roberto - 2-12-2012 at 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
"Wow, ramuma really messed up."

I didn't see anything new there that wasn't in the previous media releases.

:?:

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]


If there's nothing there that you didn't already know than don't read it. I believe that's what you advocated we do to the Mengano news posts.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude.


It doesn't sound rude it IS rude. All he's saying is that, since you titled it "Ramuna Really Messed Up", there would be some evidence that hadn't been known already. Could you be a little more specific, or are you just one of those that believe Mark & Olivia are GOOD and Ramuna is EVIL?

Sorry if that sounds rude, dude.

And, since you brought up Mengano - does this provide any more perspective on the safety of Baja? Of course, bad things happen everywhere. In Mexico you will not be protected from the "authorities" they very well might be the bad guys. Does that change things at all?

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Roberto]

XPBRes - 2-12-2012 at 02:30 PM

Yes 1st time posters look suspicious. My only agenda was to keep the truth in the mix. I know truth can be spun but there are something’s that can’t be spun.

I appreciate all of the people in the bay that have supported Mike, Mark & Olivia, we did it before all of you. We paid rent and brought down supplies shared in the building thru the 1st 10 years. Then our trusted couple split, Mike & Olivia, Mike took all he could from beach like a pirate. He went in to town and opened a bar, La Casona. Left the renters and the Italians to pick up the pieces. We supported Olivia, while Mike made his plans to cross the gulf to Guaymas. Yes he took a new wife and started all over and has done exactly the same thing to americans over there. I too heard of his sickness but it has been reported that he is running the same beach, house build out, with airstrip.

So renters and Italians surrounded Olivia and took her in. She claimed she knew nothing of Mikes business with us, so we explained what we were paying for rent & utilities and paid her. Now the fun begins, our signed and stamped 30 year lease is now said to be void. The ejido wants to be paid for all improvements to their property, did Mike know something??? Olivia comes to us crying that she needs 10,000 usd to solve her issues with ejido. Of course this is all Mike's fault he never told her anything. Along with this immediate crisis we need to draft new leases. This is the part in the story where Mark inserts himself, promoting that renters have great thing going and they should pay more. Ok so we as renters surround the wagons and put up a front and say HELL NO!! Now comes the stand off that last about a year, we give in and give a fair cost of inflation bump on rent and utilities. We all continue to pay in good faith. That year most all the renters were there on the beach spring to early summer. Roberto & Franaca show up for there normal summer stay. They usually do a lot of cleaning a give Olivia a break so that she can go north to visit family. I find out that while Olivia is gone Munoz shows up at the diner, eats and ask for a room. As he is chatting with Franca he ask where the owner of the hotel is. She tells him that her and Roberto our the owners. He then tells about the mexican women that he meet on his last visit that claimed to own all the property and improvements.

Have to stop here and say we have signed docs by the ejido and Mike & Olivia that state we own our improvements to the leased land and can sell them.

Ok she then tries to sell the hotel and the renters improvements to him. At the same time that this is going on Olivia & Mark are mailing us new american stock lease agreements, which we received in the mail. Nobody in their right mind would have signed off on this lease.

Now I get a panicked phone call from Franca about this new person claiming that he is the real property owner and we need to talk with him. Roberto & Franca have taken Corona & Munoz claims to their lawyer and account. They tell us that everything checks out. So the renters set up a meeting in San Diego to talk all this out. In the process we are overwhelmed with Munoz by email, I think all of you here know what I'm saying (long winded lawyer speak). We are informed at the meeting that Roberto & Franca have sold the Hotel to these guys.

I don't think sold ever happened but I know they came to an agreement. If I can I will post the 10 year old emails, it might be hard to find but I will try.

Some of the renters never came back to the beach, some started paying rent to Munoz, but for the most part it was over at that point. We continued to fight the good fight but we eventually caved to money, harassment, law suits. I decided that we could rent a place for a lot less trouble, THIS BROKE MY WIFES HEART. We brought down the materials for that house one suburban at a time, blood sweat and tears invested in building that house. No matter what happens they can't take that away from us!! The people we met, the joy and memories we will hold on too!

We've had over 20 years invested in Playa Buenaventura and for the most part we're so happy we did. Remember there were people, up until this last year, trying to live in peace at the beach. This and Mark & Olivia’s claims to other people’s property is what brought me into the discussion now.

I have a Passion for this property and the Baja, I DO NOT wish ill will on these characters. What I wish for is more honest information and less posturing and opinion.
Thanks for listening

The pic is of Semana Santa 94 before hotel

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]

Easter @ playa.jpg - 48kB

LisaR. - 2-12-2012 at 02:38 PM

Thank you XPBRes. Some of us have been following this story for several years, have been to the property, and met some of the people involved. And we still don't really know the truth of what is going on. I really appreciate hearing from someone like you who knows the history, but is not involved in the current mess. Please keep sharing anything you can!

Woooosh - 2-12-2012 at 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
"Wow, ramuma really messed up."

I didn't see anything new there that wasn't in the previous media releases.

:?:

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]


If there's nothing there that you didn't already know than don't read it. I believe that's what you advocated we do to the Mengano news posts.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude.


??? I don't believe that was me, and yes you are indeed being rude by attributing words to me I have not said. It was just a translation of a link previously posted. No info to say Raphael had "screwed up" at all.

Raphael is posting his side, where is the other side? Do they have a defense? They fired their bear spray before Raphaels guys fired the buckshot.

It seems strange they would force people out of that same house just three months ago and now complain they are being forced out- when I do believe Raphael has the LEGAL land title. Neither of them paid for it to be sure.

Do they even pay for the concession? How about showing a recent concession payment for the restaurant (I think the enterprise FMZT concession rate (for profit use) is 30 pesos per square meter per month).

It looks like there are two courts making decisions on the same piece of land. Both parties are acting on what their court has "told" them. I think Raphael found an error in the ejido paperwork in Mexico City years ago and was able to get the legal national land title to the land he claims from the Secretaria Reforma Agraria. No one local can take that away and it is the most important document in a title chain. The agrarian courts can rule on the ejido, but not the land title or federal zone I believe.

There is no high road here. It is a nasty Mexican land deal with both parties in the wrong- one legally, one morally. But there are few morals and no shame in Mexico when it come to land grabs. jmho.

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 02:50 PM

XPBRes.

Thanks.From your perspective then. Who owns the property. The Ejido?

XPBRes - 2-12-2012 at 03:10 PM

For 10 years that has been the ? I believe it is ejido land, but that can be sold at any time. Munoz brought his papers from Mexico City and has been working backwards, state, agrarian then municipal. I don’t think there is a dispute that this is or was ejido land. No matter the damage has been done by both parties. We would have been more than happy to continue renting, but we were in the middle of their war. Olivia sued all the renters for years, Munoz claimed to represent us in court. Somehow we would lose our case, and if you believe them they both won theirs. There again is my problem with these characters, they get there side to believe them and the war continues. The only side I see is my truth, they have told these lies for so long that they believe them and they are very convincing when telling them again.

DENNIS - 2-12-2012 at 03:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
The only side I see is my truth, they have told these lies for so long that they believe them and they are very convincing when telling them again.



The problem remaining to be looked at, by outsiders, is the law in Mexico being toothless and for sale. USA viewers to this thread can't accept that. Can't understand it.
They should try harder to do that if they are in the same boat.
I'm trying.

Woooosh - 2-12-2012 at 03:39 PM

There are very strict mapping and boundary requirements for establishing ejidos. Most of the ejidos are old and did not have the required paperwork (maps) in Mexico City to legally back them up. There are many disputes like this going on in Baja. Presumably Raphael found a way to prove the boundaries were not correct onyour ejido and was then able to have the National Land Title given to him by the SRA. From there he is working backwards to get possession it seems. The SRA national land title is the strongest one that no court can overturn.

Woooosh - 2-12-2012 at 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
The only side I see is my truth, they have told these lies for so long that they believe them and they are very convincing when telling them again.


The problem remaining to be looked at, by outsiders, is the law in Mexico being toothless and for sale. USA viewers to this thread can't accept that. Can't understand it.
They should try harder to do that if they are in the same boat.
I'm trying.


True, and with no price list for Gringos. Never accepted being treated like a sheep for slaughter though Dennis. :)

Getting ripped off is preventable. The ONLY land title document you can trust is the stamped SRA national land title. It is the first stamp on the title chain for every piece of land in Mexico. The SRA title means the land was transferred from being property of Mexico, to the owner. All the land in Mexico is the property of the government and it must be bought and transferred this way. If someone selling you a house or condo cannot show you that document, they don't own what they are selling you. Don't fall for excuses, mumbo jumbo or the promise of title insurance. Only in Mexico can you buy Title Insurance to research a title that does not exist.

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by Woooosh]

XPBRes - 2-12-2012 at 03:56 PM

I would hope the wonderful people who post would not see my post as an attempt to place blame. I had a need to tell my story and I have gotten too! Anyone that has told family or friends that they are investing time and money in Baja know that they are going to get a loud "I told you so".

We went at this with our eyes open and we are not alone in this recurring nightmare. The rub is to see someone like Mark crying foul. When he had as much to do with this situation as any one and really from my perspective has contributed so little.

On the other hand I feel he has been a GREAT companion to Olivia, and I do admire him for that. I would not wish what has happened to them on any one!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]

J.P. - 2-12-2012 at 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
I would hope the wonderful people who post would not see my post as an attempt to place blame. I had a need to tell my story and I have gotten too! Anyone that has told family or friends that they are investing time and money in Baja know that they are going to get a loud "I told you so".

We went at this with our eyes open and we are not alone in this recurring nightmare. The rub is to see someone like Mark crying foul. When he had as much to do with this situation as any one and really from my perspective has contributed so little.









On the other hand I feel he has been a GREAT companion to Olivia, and I do admire him for that. I would not wish what has happened to them on any one!





Thanks for your input your story is as close to the truth as any of us will probably ever hear .I have been watching this unfold for several years and as you stated Marc has contributed little but emotinal support to Olivia. The battle was raging when he entered the scene.

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 04:30 PM

Sad. I still don't know why Olivia sued the renters. Why not wait until everything is settled and then honor Mikes agreement. I am amazed you hold so little ill-will. I am afraid others wouldn't be quiet so forgiving.
Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
For 10 years that has been the ? I believe it is ejido land, but that can be sold at any time. Munoz brought his papers from Mexico City and has been working backwards, state, agrarian then municipal. I don’t think there is a dispute that this is or was ejido land. No matter the damage has been done by both parties. We would have been more than happy to continue renting, but we were in the middle of their war. Olivia sued all the renters for years, Munoz claimed to represent us in court. Somehow we would lose our case, and if you believe them they both won theirs. There again is my problem with these characters, they get there side to believe them and the war continues. The only side I see is my truth, they have told these lies for so long that they believe them and they are very convincing when telling them again.

Roberto - 2-12-2012 at 04:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
When you hire people to harass your neighbors with guns and blockades and all they have done was to not run away when he started harassing them 3 years ago to take their land from them to add to his ... yah, I call that being a thug.

Back then when he started his wild story telling about drug trafficing (in a dead end bay, where other Nomads live and none have seen any activity or see any navy ships as he said there was... I did try to talk with him, before I met Mark and Olivia... and from his replies to me and here on Nomad, I was able to get a good feel for who was honest. When I met Mark and Olivia, it was confirmed that we have a classic GOOD vs. EVIL battle here... Look at the once beautiful hotel on the beach which is a deserted dump since Muñoz took control of it... the look of what EVIL does when it is unchallanged by GOOD.

Read Pompano's last photo post (above)... Pompano has lived on Concepcion Bay for a long time... I trust his opinion, as well.

I stand on the side of GOOD. Can you not see what EVIL looks like? Look again at all the Nomads who have posted photos above.


Wow! David, what do you actually have to back up such strong statements, as in facts? EVIL vs GOOD implies all the right is on one side, and all the fault of the other. As little time as you spend in BCS (when was the last time you actually were there), how do you have your information? And, what IS that information. I hope it's more than the posts on the site and a meal at Playa Buenaventura and a good time.

DENNIS - 2-12-2012 at 04:45 PM

Every person in this drama has "evil" that they're trying to hide. One would have to be a gullible fool not to know this.
Stupidity alone is evil.

XPBRes - 2-12-2012 at 04:46 PM

rts551,
If I said that we haven't felt mad, sad and peeed off over the years you would have to put us up for sainthood. This has been along process with our beach family, and that is what we became. Some have past away some ran away, but we will always be connected. That is the blessing of this story. even the so called villians have had there good moments. So as hard as it seems moving on is easier with time.

goldhuntress - 2-12-2012 at 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
rts551,
If I said that we haven't felt mad, sad and peeed off over the years you would have to put us up for sainthood. This has been along process with our beach family, and that is what we became. Some have past away some ran away, but we will always be connected. That is the blessing of this story. even the so called villians have had there good moments. So as hard as it seems moving on is easier with time.

Well now I'm sad mad and peeed off for you! Thanks for setting the record straight. You sound at peace with it so that's good:)

elgatoloco - 2-12-2012 at 05:24 PM

http://munoz-industries.com/empresas-corporativas/buenaventu...

paranewbi - 2-12-2012 at 05:26 PM

So is this a good time to make an offer on someone's share? Seems like there could be a good deal here!

Santiago - 2-12-2012 at 05:26 PM

Thanks for some of this explanation - at least those of us who are not familiar with his story are starting to see outlines of the issues.
One thing I don't understand is how Munoz got his title. If, as Woooosh says, the EJ's paperwork is not correct, then doesn't the FD still 'own' the land? What would make them give Munoz title?

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by Santiago]

Udo - 2-12-2012 at 05:32 PM

How much should I offer?
Quote:
Originally posted by paranewbi
So is this a good time to make an offer on someone's share? Seems like there could be a good deal here!

Roberto - 2-12-2012 at 05:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by paranewbi
So is this a good time to make an offer on someone's share? Seems like there could be a good deal here!


Huh? Good deal? On what, problems?

David K - 2-12-2012 at 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
I would hope the wonderful people who post would not see my post as an attempt to place blame. I had a need to tell my story and I have gotten too! Anyone that has told family or friends that they are investing time and money in Baja know that they are going to get a loud "I told you so".

We went at this with our eyes open and we are not alone in this recurring nightmare. The rub is to see someone like Mark crying foul. When he had as much to do with this situation as any one and really from my perspective has contributed so little.

On the other hand I feel he has been a GREAT companion to Olivia, and I do admire him for that. I would not wish what has happened to them on any one!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]


Thank you for your post... I for one appreciate hearing the longer version of the site's history. When I call Mark and Olivia 'Good', it is only in comparison to to Muñoz as I don't pretend to know them before 2009. Bad people can change to good and vice a versa.

Roberto - 2-12-2012 at 06:10 PM

And knowing them means what? You met them once when you went there for a beer?

Are you backing off your GOOD vs EVIL post? DK riding in on the white stallion with his cape? Get a grip on reality, David. Buying a beer does not a friend make. Or knowing people.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by Roberto]

David K - 2-12-2012 at 06:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
When you hire people to harass your neighbors with guns and blockades and all they have done was to not run away when he started harassing them 3 years ago to take their land from them to add to his ... yah, I call that being a thug.

Back then when he started his wild story telling about drug trafficing (in a dead end bay, where other Nomads live and none have seen any activity or see any navy ships as he said there was... I did try to talk with him, before I met Mark and Olivia... and from his replies to me and here on Nomad, I was able to get a good feel for who was honest. When I met Mark and Olivia, it was confirmed that we have a classic GOOD vs. EVIL battle here... Look at the once beautiful hotel on the beach which is a deserted dump since Muñoz took control of it... the look of what EVIL does when it is unchallanged by GOOD.

Read Pompano's last photo post (above)... Pompano has lived on Concepcion Bay for a long time... I trust his opinion, as well.

I stand on the side of GOOD. Can you not see what EVIL looks like? Look again at all the Nomads who have posted photos above.


Wow! David, what do you actually have to back up such strong statements, as in facts? EVIL vs GOOD implies all the right is on one side, and all the fault of the other. As little time as you spend in BCS (when was the last time you actually were there), how do you have your information? And, what IS that information. I hope it's more than the posts on the site and a meal at Playa Buenaventura and a good time.


See my post just above, plus when you actually spend a little time with someone you can tell a lot.

Sadly, you and I spent like 5 minutes or less talking on Dec. 31, 2001 at Camp Gecko, so while I thought it was a friendly exchange at the time, your negative comments of me on the Internet (ever since) has been quite bazaar. I never wanted any hostility towards you and did nothing ever to you to deserve it. My attempts at a peaceful resolution before has been rejected as well. I would still like the personal comments from you about me to end, is that at all possible?

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 06:19 PM

Poor attempt at trying to save face David. poor As the facts come out, it appears your beer bought loyalty might have been wrong.



Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
I would hope the wonderful people who post would not see my post as an attempt to place blame. I had a need to tell my story and I have gotten too! Anyone that has told family or friends that they are investing time and money in Baja know that they are going to get a loud "I told you so".

We went at this with our eyes open and we are not alone in this recurring nightmare. The rub is to see someone like Mark crying foul. When he had as much to do with this situation as any one and really from my perspective has contributed so little.

On the other hand I feel he has been a GREAT companion to Olivia, and I do admire him for that. I would not wish what has happened to them on any one!

[Edited on 2-12-2012 by XPBRes]


Thank you for your post... I for one appreciate hearing the longer version of the site's history. When I call Mark and Olivia 'Good', it is only in comparison to to Muñoz as I don't pretend to know them before 2009. Bad people can change to good and vice a versa.

David K - 2-12-2012 at 06:58 PM

I don't need you to explain me Ralph, just try and be fair with someone who is there serving travelers instead of someone who is 600+ miles north in Tijuana paying thugs to blockade their business to force them away (after the turtle soup and drug trafficing lies failed).

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't need you to explain me Ralph, just try and be fair with someone who is there serving travelers instead of someone who is 600+ miles north in Tijuana paying thugs to blockade their business to force them away (after the turtle soup and drug trafficing lies failed).



David
did it ever occur to you that you do not have to take sides?

Lee - 2-12-2012 at 07:17 PM

People judging DK judging people?

Whoever hired the thugs to show up with a shotgun is EVIL.

Anyone thinking otherwise is entitled to think I'm wrong.

DK is entitled to call Mark/Olivia ''friends'' without being judged on the length and depth of their relationship.

What the heck is wrong with you people?

rts551 - 2-12-2012 at 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee



What the heck is wrong with you people?


nothing.

DianaT - 2-12-2012 at 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee



What the heck is wrong with you people?


nothing.


:yes::yes::yes:

Lee - 2-12-2012 at 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by Lee

What the heck is wrong with you people?


nothing.


Your personal attacks demonstrate otherwise. You can't disagree with DK without personal attacks?

paranewbi - 2-12-2012 at 07:46 PM

Man, this whole thread is like sitting around the table with family and booze. Brings a tear to my eyes....it's been so long since those days. I just want it to never end.

Roberto - 2-12-2012 at 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
People judging DK judging people?

Whoever hired the thugs to show up with a shotgun is EVIL.

Anyone thinking otherwise is entitled to think I'm wrong.

DK is entitled to call Mark/Olivia ''friends'' without being judged on the length and depth of their relationship.

What the heck is wrong with you people?


What the heck is wrong with YOU and your compulsive need to defend DK no matter his words or actions?

By your own standards, if DK is enititled to call someone he bought a beer from a friend, others are entitled to ask why he would do that, and condemn other that he also knows nothing about. You don't see that?

surfer jim - 2-12-2012 at 09:40 PM

...we have left the main road but let's see where this detour takes us....

DENNIS - 2-12-2012 at 09:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by surfer jim
...we have left the main road but let's see where this detour takes us....


In a great big circle. If you keep going left, pretty soon you're going right. [no political comment intended] :lol:

mulegemichael - 2-12-2012 at 09:45 PM

i hope it doesn't take us back to turtle soup.

Lee - 2-12-2012 at 09:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
What the heck is wrong with YOU and your compulsive need to defend DK no matter his words or actions?


I weigh his words the same as everyone else. Think we're on the same page on some things. Specifically, he thinks the thugs who were hired by the thug in Tiajuana is evil, and so do I. That doesn't mean Mark/Olivia is ''good'' but I don't see them as thugs.

How DK measures friendship is none of my business and I don't question that. If you want to get into defining what is and isn't a friend, feel free. No reason to make it personal, though, is there?
Quote:
By your own standards, if DK is enititled to call someone he bought a beer from a friend, others are entitled to ask why he would do that, and condemn other that he also knows nothing about. You don't see that?


I think I see it, but maybe not. Bottom line is if DK writes that someone is his friend, I'll take that at face value. I don't want to stray too far from the subject here. That's the Mark and Olivia story, and the thugs that belong in jail.

DK is entitled to be questioned respectfully and I question ''condemning'' him because someone doesn't like his answer or opinions, or him as a person. For some reason, I get a feeling that those personal attacks are from other threads?

Hope you can see that.

Can we move on? Is this thread finished?

Ateo - 2-12-2012 at 09:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee
People judging DK judging people?

Whoever hired the thugs to show up with a shotgun is EVIL.

Anyone thinking otherwise is entitled to think I'm wrong.

DK is entitled to call Mark/Olivia ''friends'' without being judged on the length and depth of their relationship.

What the heck is wrong with you people?


Agreed.

MexicoTed - 2-12-2012 at 10:15 PM

Wow, this thread is really taking a different route than what it started as. There's so many questions about what has happened at San Buenaventura in the past 10 years and now even more through some of these posts such as:

-How did Sr. Munoz get the title that was supposedly not legal and that the ejido didn't have? Woosh stated it was not legal so many years ago, so how is it not government land?

-Who is XPBRes? I don't have any idea other than he just joined the site and claims he built and lived in one of the homes there. Am I missing something, do you all know him? How do I know what he claims is any truer than what Munoz or Mark/Olivia claims?

-Where's the title? If Munoz has it, post it. If Mark/Olivia have the beach concession, post it. Show us proof.

-Is the hotel even open? Last time I went by it was closed (last year). Has it functioned in the last year or so?

Seems like everything is rumor or a "I heard this or that" thing.

Until the legal process plays out, we'll never know.
Ted

XPBRes - 2-12-2012 at 11:09 PM

MT,
How do you know anything is true? I can only ask you who do you know in this story. Have you meet any of the residents at PB? I think most people on this site have driven by or stopped for a beer. That makes them only able to tell what they have heard. I ask you check out some of the facts. I ask you to name anybody that was there before Marc. I would be happy to give you details and think I have given some.

If this was so clear cut no one would be interested.

I can tell you i have seen everyones paperwork and it doesn't add up to much. Have you ever walked into a municipal buiding or court in Mexico? There were 2 Agrarian buildings in La Paz, 1 kept the maps and records for the ejido the other building for the sale of ejido property. There was paperwork stuffed in cabinets, they couldn't find anything that you asked for. 10 years ago when we tried to sort this out, you would walk in and see computers on the desk. The funny part is they are not pluged into anything, guess what no power outlets. This is a small part of what we were dealing with back then. Ok its 10 years later maybe things have changed.

I ask you how long would you have put with what we did?
ASK AWAY I HAVE NO AGENDA, maybe one to stop watching and particapate in the discussion. I again challenge these other characters to bring it. I stand on the fact that they are getting what they sowed.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by XPBRes]

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by XPBRes]

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 02:14 AM

Here is an email dated 3-18-2003 Hopeful you will understand I have to edit some of the names and addresses.
I offer this as more info and hopefully you can see how complex this was.

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 7:32 AM
Subject: REAL RIGHTS RECOGNITION CONTRACT


Sr. Munoz,
I have reviewed the contract. We must first tell you that we
have cooperated with you & Sr. Corona from the beginning of our
discussions. We have helped to keep communication with all parties and
shared information when asked. These discussions started back in Sept.
2002. We have always agreed to sign a contract with you. This agreement was to be 2 parts:

1. That we agree that you are the ONLY OWNERS of the real property at
Playa Buenaventura, where our improvements are standing and that we would return all to you.
2. That you appraise, compensate and lease back for the duration of
the payments.
You state very clearly that you need us to sign contract #1 and that
we can take care of contract #2 later.
The problem with Contract #1 is that we give up all our rights to any
claim.
This means that we would not be able to make a claim for you to sign
contract #2.

Sr. Munoz it states very clearly in CLAUSE #1 of Contract #1:
The Cedente yields, donates, transfers, delivers without any
condition, final, irrevocable without any reserve and immediately the
object matter of this contract, delivering the material possession of the same one in this act, not to reserving straight or any obligation and renouncing any right to the same one in favor of the Owners.
Sr. Munoz it also states very clearly in DECLARATION V of Contract #1:
Declares the Cedente, that is Citizen of the United States of North
America, apt legal and physically to hire and to be obliged, that understands the content, meaning and spirit of this contract, in spite of the fact that Spanish is not his natural language since has translated it by
means of their advisors in the matter, who explained it completely its
meaning and legal reaches. I don't know of a lawyer who would have me sign contract #1 without
having contract #2 in place or at least mentioned in contract #1. The
Contract also needs signatures to be witnessed. I am confused as to how this could be a legal document when you and I have not signed this document in the presence of witnesses.
So by definition of the DECLARATION, I have not been advised to sign
without an offer. Let me say to you again WE ARE NOT DISPUTING YOU'RE RIGHTS TO OWNERSHIP.
What we are asking is: why have you not given us a completed Contract #2? Please appraise our improvements, which you have told us you would do for the last 6 months, and give us an offer with a lease back for an
extended period of time.
Sr. Munoz these are things that you OFFERED us to do back in SEPT
2002, they are not and were not demands that we made of you. I would have signed this document last month when you came to San Diego. You even emailed me and asked for pictures of the homes to help with appraisal and I sent them.
You said in that email we could finalize the documents then. We even had
discussion months ago about a fair amount for compensation and you
told me there would be no problem. At the meeting Sr. Corona told us
all, that he would go to Buenaventura and look at the properties. We
were told not to WORRY because the problem was not with us but Olivia.
Mr went to Buenaventura and was there with the keys to all the
homes. That was a month ago.
Sr. Munoz you have asked us to take you at your word and we have. We
think you & Sr. Corona are good men and will do the right thing. Again
I have to say that this is a legal matter and it has to BENEFIT both
parties to be of any value.
In closing:
I will tell you my intentions are to sign BOTH documents with an
agreement to an appraisal, compensation and lease back arrangements. This is fair and what you have always agreed too.

Munoz replies:

I understand your doubts.
We understand that you recognizes us as the only legal owners, but we need you to tell us it in writing and we need it now, because we need to start the legal procedures against Olivia and anyone who odes not recognizes us in writing, we can't just wait any longer.
Signing the first contract don't take away anything that you legally have, since you don't have any right now, since you built on land that was not yours from the start; we are not offering you to pay for the building because we have, we can just say that, what you paid to Olivia, you have to reclaim it from her, since we the owners, have not received any of that money, we just would have to reclaim the whole house and the back rent for 5 years from you, trough the court and you will have to give it just like that back plus 5 years rent and attorneys and court costs.
We are now not obligated to pay you one cent and we can ask you for 5 years back rent and to leave our property and all that is in strict according to the law; that is why we don't connect contract one with the second; if fact, we liberate you from back rents and any legal responsibility with the first one and that is the one you need more, since then, we will be on cero with you; now, legally you own us 5 years back rent and we own you nothing for the building.
The second is a voluntary one for us and you can be sure we are not going to go back on it, because if we wanted, we would already have done it and asking for money not offering it to you.
To the second one, we already agreed to some of your appraisals, we just don't agree with some others.
To evaluate what we want to pay you, we will consider the actual money you spent in the house, less the depreciation by time and use; we agreed to one price for one house, but the other ones are too high according to our civil engineer; that is why Ernesto want to go personally to take a personal opinion; we don't want you to suffer a great loss, but we don't want to pay for more than we are receiving in actual value.
You are not selling your house, you are being compensated for the actual value of the building you have, considering that Olivia is the one who stole your money; money that we think it will be very difficult to get back, since you don't have adequate records of your payments to her, at leas not enough to present in court; and that is your mistake not ours; the same for not having asked for a title insurance or validation before investing and paying.
That is why don't expect to get back the actual real estate price of the house you use now in our property.
We know that all of this is a bunch of legal mumbo for you, but in Mexico it is a lot more important to go according to the law, than in the Estates and it not exactly because of the Mexicans, since Olivia was born in the United Estates and the same for her past husband and actual Mark; you were robed by US citizens disguised as Mexicans and using Mexican land.
Don't worry about making these questions, we know how you feel and we feel bad too, because it is difficult to deal with people like Olivia and Mark who don't have nothing, were used to live without working and feeling like they owned something without paying for it.
We paid a lot of money to the Mexican Government 15 years ago for the land, we have paid our taxes since then and we did it because we were waiting for the right moment to invest; we were not expecting to find squatters in our land and I mean Olivia, because we recognize that you were wrongly induced to use our land.
If you have more questions we can keep writing until we all feel we understand each other.
Rafael M Munoz

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 02:27 AM

So here we are 6 months later, does this sound like something you've heard recently....and on it goes like this until present day. I will stop now, but as I said early I am happy to share, answer and be apart of this discussion in an open forum.

Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 5:50 PM
Subject: update?

The immigration officers have been at San Buenaventura with Mark and Olivia, they have found several wrong doings of Mark, Olivia and the Immigration officer at Santa Rosalia; they were planning on staying at Mulege a couple of days but since they found several problems they have spent more than a week there; their ruling will be ready in a week or so they said to their boos in Mexico city; they made an investigation about the emails Mark sent to Baja Quest too; their problems are bigger than we expected.
The appraisals were given to us a week ago but we will take a second opinion since they were extremely low in Ernesto's opinion, he want to go and verify them himself and he will be there in a couple of weeks, but in my opinion the appraisals are very well done and funded, it will be a matter of reaching an agreement.
I will be at San Buenaventura next week with the Federal Zone officials to verify our concession's drawing; Olivia's request or to continue having the concession have been denied and it is fact she will be leaving in the very near future; our property rights have been verified by the Federal authority and our title found good and all the Olivia's allegations found unfounded.
The Ejido have never participated.
We don't think that you can have any kind of problem while at the beach, now we have the complete control over the beach, they no longer can use the beach for any purpose and they will not be able even to visit you; Juan have very explicit orders about them and he will physically throw them out if they try to enter our property and I mean even the beach, now we can offer you complete protection from them.
If you haven't noticed, all of Mark's emails to Baja Quest have been deleted from public view.
Rafael M Munoz

Now now...does this really happen?

mcfez - 2-13-2012 at 08:33 AM

".......There was paperwork stuffed in cabinets, they couldn't find anything that you asked for. 10 years ago when we tried to sort this out, you would walk in and see computers on the desk. The funny part is they are not plugged into anything, guess what no power outlets."

Absolutely YES! I chuckled when I read this...reminded me so much of the ejido "office" in San Felipe
Quote:
Originally posted by XPBRes
MT,
How do you know anything is true? I can only ask you who do you know in this story. Have you meet any of the residents at PB? I think most people on this site have driven by or stopped for a beer. That makes them only able to tell what they have heard. I ask you check out some of the facts. I ask you to name anybody that was there before Marc. I would be happy to give you details and think I have given some.

If this was so clear cut no one would be interested.

I can tell you i have seen everyones paperwork and it doesn't add up to much. Have you ever walked into a municipal buiding or court in Mexico? There were 2 Agrarian buildings in La Paz, 1 kept the maps and records for the ejido the other building for the sale of ejido property. There was paperwork stuffed in cabinets, they couldn't find anything that you asked for. 10 years ago when we tried to sort this out, you would walk in and see computers on the desk. The funny part is they are not pluged into anything, guess what no power outlets. This is a small part of what we were dealing with back then. Ok its 10 years later maybe things have changed.

I ask you how long would you have put with what we did?
ASK AWAY I HAVE NO AGENDA, maybe one to stop watching and particapate in the discussion. I again challenge these other characters to bring it. I stand on the fact that they are getting what they sowed.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by XPBRes]

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by XPBRes]


[Edited on 2-13-2012 by mcfez]

Pompano - 2-13-2012 at 09:25 AM

Hey...it's part of the greatness of Baja. Metal filing cabinets, deteriorating microfish, paper manuscripts, land maps, surveys, etc. etc ..overflowing with your vital ownership papers, tax records, leases, marriages,.. MARRIAGES?..., legal claims, lawsuits, etc.

It makes it more of a challenge, right? Baja is a great paradise..and it should never be too easy to obtain. You have to work for it! But you should never be cheated out of it. The criminals involved should be treated as horse thieves were in the Old West. Trouble is, there are not enough tall trees around this part of Baja.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by Pompano]

ELINVESTIG8R - 2-13-2012 at 10:00 AM

Mark and Olivia, who is this balding man with his hands in front of him with the palms facing toward himself?

Rafael, is this your man pointing a shotgun at an unarmed man? Was this before or after pepper spray? I do not think he was pepper sprayed before this was taken, as he would have been in pain. It does not appear he was in pain.

This is screws up if he was not attacked first or the other side had firearms too.

Rafael, is the man with a flashlight your man too?


XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 10:25 AM

Pompano,
I totally agree the adventure is worth it, but lets get our posse and hang some horse thieves!!

tripledigitken - 2-13-2012 at 10:31 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
Mark and Olivia, who is this balding man with his hands in front of him with the palms facing toward himself?

Rafael, is this your man pointing a shotgun at an unarmed man? Was this before or after pepper spray? I do not think he was pepper sprayed before this was taken, as he would have been in pain. It does not appear he was in pain.

This is screws up if he was not attacked first or the other side had firearms too.

Rafael, is the man with a flashlight your man too?




David,

This was posted a few pages back.

Hotel staff and cooks apprehended!

(source...http://colectivopericu.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/)




[Edited on 2-13-2012 by tripledigitken]

Binary People

greengoes - 2-13-2012 at 10:48 AM

Binary People:

Read somewhere a person saying ‘Binary People’ can only say right or wrong, bad or evil and on or off. 11 or 00

Binary can go to an and/or which is a decision. 10

Woooosh - 2-13-2012 at 11:01 AM

15 pages and things are getting more clear, sort of. Thanks XPBRes for finding and posting the decades-old e-mails. Munoz seems to be very calm and non-threatening in his instructions. It is also clear BOTH of you are blaming Olivia for taking control of the area and five years rent money from you when she was not the owner: " it is difficult to deal with people like Olivia and Mark who don't have nothing, were used to live without working and feeling like they owned something without paying for it." The contract 1 and 2 thing is interesting, but Raphael was correct that you legally had nothing and no rights to anything before signing contract one (if Raphaels documents and title are correct and legal).

I am a little confused on the appraisals for the"other houses". Why was that an issue when you were dealing one-on-one with Raphael just to get a fair settlement on your own house? Were yo asking for control of all the houses on Raphaels side of the beach?

That pretty much sums up my take on it from what I have read. A previous poster asked for Olivia and Raphael to post their legal documents. Then again, they owe us nothing and have not participated in this thread. This thread started as a call for action to help Olivia from their Facebook postings.

NO DOG IN THIS FIGHT

desertcpl - 2-13-2012 at 11:08 AM

Now I really dont know what to think, I followed the Turtle Tread, at that time I thought Oliva and Mark was the victims,

now I really am confused, XPBRes makes some compelling points as does Munoz,

I have heard that squatting laws in Mexico are much different than here NOB, maybe Munoz was doing what needed to be done in this case in defending his property from Oliva and Mark moving into the house

DENNIS - 2-13-2012 at 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
I have heard that squatting laws in Mexico are much different than here NOB, maybe Munoz was doing what needed to be done in this case in defending his property from Oliva and Mark moving into the house


It's always been my understanding that squatters can excercise their rights under the Agrarian Reform Laws on unused, unowned land. Not someones house.
Around here, land owners will plant fields of Nopal, which takes care of itself, on the land indicating it's being farmed...therefore in use.


.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by DENNIS]

desertcpl - 2-13-2012 at 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
I have heard that squatting laws in Mexico are much different than here NOB, maybe Munoz was doing what needed to be done in this case in defending his property from Oliva and Mark moving into the house


It's always been my understanding that squatters can excercise their rights under the Agrarian Reform Laws on unused, unowned land. Not someones house.
Around here, land owners will plant fields of Nopal, which takes care of itself, on the land indicating it's being farmed...therefore in use.



Dennis , I sure you understand alot more than I do on this, but you mentioned unused and unowned, I was under the impression that it would have to be just unused and after a period of time the squatters would then have some claim on the property , if the legal owners didnt remove them

ELINVESTIG8R - 2-13-2012 at 12:06 PM

Ok Ken, thanks!

Olivia and Mark, who is the balding man with his hands up?

greengoes - 2-13-2012 at 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
I have heard that squatting laws in Mexico are much different than here NOB, maybe Munoz was doing what needed to be done in this case in defending his property from Oliva and Mark moving into the house


It's always been my understanding that squatters can excercise their rights under the Agrarian Reform Laws on unused, unowned land.
Not someones house
Around here, land owners will plant fields of Nopal, which takes care of itself, on the land indicating it's being farmed...therefore in use.


.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by DENNIS]


come se dice 'pushing the envelope'?
:lol::lol:

DENNIS - 2-13-2012 at 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
Dennis , I sure you understand alot more than I do on this, but you mentioned unused and unowned, I was under the impression that it would have to be just unused and after a period of time the squatters would then have some claim on the property , if the legal owners didnt remove them


Well....it all comes back to the age-old question in Mexico...who knows what?
It could be the "unused" factor and that might be why some feel compelled to mark their land as "used" as with the Nopal crop.
The instances that I've seen where this has taken place is on privately owned property surrounded by Ejido predators. Toscano's Beach Camp at La Bufadora is a good example.
Other large land owners throughout the country probably don't have to do anything but put up a fence because they have the power to remove anybody...at any time. Money talks....Law walks.

The time element you mentioned illustrates the need to get squatters off your property asap. Another local example of this is La Joya Beach Camp here in Punta Banda. There is a row of Puestos, shops, near the entrance that sell tamales and canned olives or whatever they have to passing tourists and they all are squatters who have outlived the statute of limitations. How Pabloff let this happen, I don't understand, but he did and he regrets it. From what I do understand, it all started with a kindness and he ended up getting screwed.
When I talk to local land owners, such as my landlord, and I mention Ejido.....they break out in a cold sweat. Government sanctioned Agrarian Reform agencies are extremely powerful, right or wrong, and they have far outlived their original intent, but they vote.



.

greengoes - 2-13-2012 at 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
Ok Ken, thanks!

Olivia and Mark, who is the balding man with his hands up?


Can he be the unamed American tourist who went off the bridge with Olivia whan the bandito cut loose after being peppersrayed?

ELINVESTIG8R - 2-13-2012 at 01:12 PM

Quien Sabe Greengoes! I am waiting for a reply to that answer!

Woooosh - 2-13-2012 at 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by desertcpl
Now I really dont know what to think, I followed the Turtle Tread, at that time I thought Oliva and Mark was the victims,

The most likely victims are we, the members of this forum; how'd we turn into the jury on this catfight, anyway? Though I do admit, it's provided a lot of... entertainment. :lol:

and still 40 pages short of the Turtle Bust thread.

Those of us who live here are always interested in land title problems. There are more and more of these title problems popping up, although this location is very remote and their local agrarian office seems to be less than ideally organized to defend a claim. It's interesting. Not the result- the players, the process, and the overlapping jurisdictions and legal rulings.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by Woooosh]

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 01:50 PM

Whoooosh,
I'm pretty sure that has to do with the way the lease contracts were written. Some of the homeowners-renters came after the hotel. Mike wrote there contracts on the hotel invoice and there by making them a different animal all together legally. if i can find that email I will post it.

The blame you talk about is not for rent on my part, it is for the deception on who I was renting from for the prior 10 years. As soon as we willed over to Munoz s she then sued us in Agrarian court. Another reason we are not so happy with our past relationship with other party.

[Edited on 2-13-2012 by XPBRes]

Pescador - 2-13-2012 at 02:44 PM

XPBRes, Did Munoz actually buy the property from the Italians or do you think he researched the property and then laid claim on it through Agragrian court? Seems like he made a couple of trips and if he is as good with land and real estate laws as it seems he may have seen a Golden opportunity since the whole ownership thing of the Hotel and Restaurant were in question and totally unclear.
I am truly sorry for all of the effort, blood, sweat, and tears that you went through to make a place for yourself down there. I hope this all comes to some worthwhile conclusion. I remember when we started to build that we spent every waking moment on our return to Colorado making purchases, filling trailers or trucks, and dreaming every night about our little castle in Paradise. It is so sad when the dream becomes a nightmare. One small thing in your favor is that everyone reading this will have a better handle on the advice that we all continually give that leasing ejido land is a nightmare and not the best thing to do.

I really appreciate your taking the time to help clear this up. I admit to a basic mistrust of lawyers and it does not matter which side of the border they are on.

wessongroup - 2-13-2012 at 03:32 PM

Hear, hear... Pescador ...

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 03:34 PM

Pescador,
The Italians have kept in contact and are wonderful trustworthy people. They would never answer directly to that ? So I think they came to some sort of business arrangement, payments, compensation of some sort. Do I think they ever got what was promised NO!

The restaurant and 2 homes to the south are in the federal zone so they fall under Olivia's consession. This is why this continues, private property vs. federal consession. Munoz blocks the road to his property and makes it tough for people reach beach, restaurant & homes to the south.

Thanks for the understanding of our hard work and planning. I do wish when we started there had been a forum such as this one. People need to look past the emotion and get GOOD advice before they jump in. I have so wanted to tell our story since this forum started. We made a choice to not put the other renters in jeopardy and keep quiet.

I hope everyone here can understand how hard it has been to watch and not jump right in! Now that it is only the primaries that are involved and this opportunity presented itself, it was a great time to join the group.

surfer jim - 2-13-2012 at 05:53 PM

Second that ...:rolleyes:

I have finally gotten the idea of what may be going on there.

Woooosh - 2-13-2012 at 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by surfer jim
Second that ...:rolleyes:

I have finally gotten the idea of what may be going on there.

and I didn't have to read 50 pages of Turtle Bust. Raphael cousin, Eng. Chavira- is the Federal Zone court expert for Baja California. You put that with attorney Raphael's expertise in land title law and you have a powerful team. Ejidos must be easy-pickens.

Still curious about the type and payment of the concesion. A concession for profit (enterprise) has a very high rent rate (30 pesos per month per square meter). If the houses are on the same concession, that is a fairly large area- say 1000 m2. That would be 3000 pesos per month, every month if they are paying it. A concession for profit is designed to accommodate beach businesses who are expected to generate sales tax back to the government and create jobs- with enough money to pay their rent to the gov't for being allowed to use it. You can't buy, sell or transfer a 15 year concession to the best of my knowledge.


The problem with these land battles in Mexico is you can win the war, and still get nothing to show for it in your lifetime. What retirement plan is that? It sounds like ejidos are toxic unless you are just going to camp or put a palapa on it. It was a pretty house and it's a shame the owners didn't get to live out their retirement in it. That's for sure.

Udo - 2-13-2012 at 06:24 PM

Another nail in the coffin on Mexican house purchases.

Pescador - 2-13-2012 at 06:28 PM

There are three houses on the beach. The northernmost house was the one which supposedly was occupied by Marc. The other two are closer to the hotel and are definately vacant and looking a little on the rundown side.

I find it interesting that Munoz is trying to take over the whole beach but there has been almost no improvement to any of the buildings. The hotel looks like sh.t, the houses look like something out of Detroit, and the only exception is the restaurant area which has been kept up pretty well.

Woooosh - 2-13-2012 at 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Udo
Another nail in the coffin on Mexican house purchases.

As far as I can tell, no one purchased anything- just paper shuffling. It does say something about putting improvements on land you do not have the land title to (in your Mexican family's name or in a bank trust- not matter).

[Edited on 2-14-2012 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 2-13-2012 at 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
There are three houses on the beach. The northernmost house was the one which supposedly was occupied by Marc. The other two are closer to the hotel and are definately vacant and looking a little on the rundown side.

I find it interesting that Munoz is trying to take over the whole beach but there has been almost no improvement to any of the buildings. The hotel looks like sh.t, the houses look like something out of Detroit, and the only exception is the restaurant area which has been kept up pretty well.

The e-mails XPBres published were ten years old. No one was going to do anything until the land battle was over. Why put money into it? Not sure why the hotel wasn't kept up and open. I think you have to keep up the restaurant if you want customers. Every unoccupied house in Mexico gets stripped rather quickly these days- especially by former tenants.

[Edited on 2-14-2012 by Woooosh]

desertcpl - 2-13-2012 at 07:00 PM

I think now I will only pull my RV down and stay at Pete's Camp and pay by the week :P:P:P

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 07:35 PM

The palm house is the one Marc is claiming as his. He used to move right in after the owners left. So in some distorted way he as always seen it as his. This was a common occurrence even when Mike was there. The house on the most southern end was built for Mike's son John. When he didn't cut it with Dad he was gone. He then sold it to a really great couple. They came down early one spring only to find Mike had moved in the hired help, awkward to say the least. We might have been naive but my eyes were wide open. In some ways we were captives at that point. We did call it the Compound.
It is correct to say that no one living there owns any land. We did call ourselves homeowner’s because we made all the improvements to the lots. We were always being reassured that we could sell the improvements and the tenants would work out a new lease. This did happen with a couple of the homes while Mike was there. Of course he made the sales.

[Edited on 2-14-2012 by XPBRes]

Some history..naturally.

Pompano - 2-13-2012 at 07:59 PM



XPBRes...first, I am very sorry for your troubles and the loss of your dream home in Baja. A terrible loss that I can certainly appreciate, as I have owned a great beach place for many years and had to work hard at avoiding the same fate.

Some history. Do you by chance remember the Mexican speculator who was on the site in the '80's?
This was sooo long ago...maybe you had not yet arrived on the scene?

I happened upon him coming back from the old Loreto airport one day. He was camped on Buenaventura in an Airstream trailer...the only rig in sight. There were no improvements/palapas/whatever made on that beach at that time, just a homemade trail from the highway...just like all the other beaches in BOC at the time.

He introduced himself and invited me to join him for a c-cktail..brandy and soda, as I recall...not one of my favorites, but hey..free is always good.
(Something was said about a TJ race track?…Caliente maybe, who knows?, ..or maybe the brandy bottle had a horse on it…)
He told me HE owned the beach and land ..and then asked me if I thought this beach would make a good RV park? I was surprised that he would ask a question with such an obvious answser. Hell yes, I said..what BOC beach wouldn't with such easy highway access?

Now I knew better than to take him as a 100% real thing owner...one heard a story every month back then about who owned what and where in Conception Bay and indeed all of Baja.

For some time, he would come and go. Then he disappeared...at least from my notice. Another Baja dream?

Or was this......one of our main characters in this thread?

Nothing very unusual in meeting this character and hearing his story and plans. Lots of our very newcomers met in those days were 'tycoons'...a real 'mover and shaker' and he indeed owned everything in sight..from Cabo to Guerrero Negro ..I had heard it all. Blowhards mostly..the list is long.

Playa Domingo, Pta. Arena, south beach, the peninsula...you name it, it had developers who gauranteed they owned the land. Of course, it was all offered for you as an investment..beocme a partner...get in at the start and make millions! It all made for good firepit discussions at the end of the day. "Why, I could have owned the entire Conception Bay peninsula as my private nature & hunting preserve ..Only 23 million." Or...."Coyote Bay Beach...a bargain at 1 million if you buy today!"


Legal and ownership battles. I know what you mean about record-keeping and filing systems. Old metal filing cabinets overflowing, cross-referencing non-existant, cardboard boxes of ?? records soaked from a rainstorm, no computers until quite recently.
Utter chaos. Taxes? Bring last years form and face more chaos. I have been through it all, believe me. Numero uno...many times over in La Paz, Sta. Rosalia, TJ.

If memory serves me, the block-like house at Buenaventura belonged to a rather strange pair....on of them an trust heir to Buck Knives, no? For some reason, he lost or left that house. A lively dude who had a pontoon boat, and with his wife, ended up renting a small house on the river in Mulege..from Maribelle. He sold a lot of his gear to various people ..and then moved on. One of the many Baja characters met over the years.

Another resident there used to join our small boat regattas in Coyote Bay. Used a 14' laser sailboat, as I recall. Steve..Ted? They lived in the northernmost home…right under the curve of the highway above. I ‘think’ he may have posted on Nomads at some time in the past….
Please excuse my poor recall of names...faces and places are much easier.

I was sorry to hear of all the lease/ownership troubles that began at Buenaventura many years ago, but was not suprised. I know your angst, as I had many years of legal battles to straighten out my own ownership matters in Coyote Bay. I went through hell and obtained one of the first..if not thee first... bank trusts/fideicomisos for Baja Sur and the largest acreage next to the ocean...which of course contained many errors.... that years later took tons of time and money to straighten out.

To anyone who is interested in buying real estate in Baja, I offer these two arrows to put in your quiver:

1. Lawyers are a good source of protein.

2. Oxymarooon - 'Owning Real Estate... in Baja.'



p.s. edit to add: Am sure this was done at the get-go, but in light of the mistakes here, you never know..

I have found several notable tax records of various properties in the archaic archives of the record office in Sta. Rosalia..and some in the tax office at Mulege,while hunting for my own.

I assume someone has the legal description of the property..so that's an easy one to check..IF one can find the earliest record of whoever paid the tax. Might be a clue in there somewhere...plus the surveyors office next door..any improvements would have had to have a plan made up and stamped. Just a thought...





[Edited on 2-14-2012 by Pompano]

bufeo - 2-13-2012 at 09:00 PM

This has been a fascinating thread to read. Reminds me of Punta Chivato late '70s early '80s.

Allen R

Pompano - 2-13-2012 at 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bufeo
This has been a fascinating thread to read. Reminds me of Punta Chivato late '70s early '80s.

Allen R


That was a story very familiar to this one...a horse of an almost the same color. ;)

Bill, Doc, George,..and a couple others...Ah yes.... Viva Baja

XPBRes - 2-13-2012 at 10:30 PM

Pompano,
thanks for the history, and yes we have met, pig races, chili cook-offs and most notable sailing off your beach. If I remember I loaned the lazer to Johnny T and I sailed a 16’ invitation.

Barry & Melissa is who I think you’re referring to. Mike gave him hell for all his enthusiasm, a couple visits to the jail and a deportation if I recall. He was persistent and kept coming back.

I too have heard the many stories of past ownership. Before Mike was another American (Larry?) with a Mexican wife. I believe he is the one who put in the umbrella palapa on the beach front. Also water lines along the beach for potential campers-RVs. Stan shared with me that Mike had him go to Loreto to meet this guy and pay him off and thus started the partnership. This started the building of the beach community on the north side 1991.

Pompano, is a rare and valuable asset to this site.

Thanks for the p.s. I wish we could come back and start over, and we we might if this ever clears up.

Best of all the memories and people will always be the prize.

Edited on 2-14-2012 by XPBRes]

[Edited on 2-14-2012 by XPBRes]

latina - 2-14-2012 at 08:47 AM

Since 1992 ejido land can be converted, through due process and by following distinct guidelines into private property, and be sold, even to foreigners...It follows that the land most converted by the ejidos is the land that is considered the most desirable to the marketplace...the playas...

bufeo - 2-14-2012 at 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano..That was a story [Punta Chivato] very familiar to this one...a horse of an almost the same color. ;)

Bill, Doc, George,..and a couple others...Ah yes.... Viva Baja


Oh my, do those names bring back memories!! I still have my file of correspondence...BEM era...e.g. "Before E-Mail". I was even...oh well, nevermind. ;D

Allen R

[Edited on 2-14-2012 by bufeo]

ramuma53 - 2-14-2012 at 09:22 AM

Thank you for your support
Here in Mexico a lot of press coverage is being done, Olivia has been identified as a link to the Pacific cartel by the Organized crime unit in public and the General District attorney is going to meet with me today also the Estate department secretary representative.
This is affecting Mexican politics because the PAN presidential candidate is asking for life in prison to public official who are found to have links with organized crime and the Baja South Governor is from her party, also the PAN party is attacking the PRI political party because 3 ex governors are alleged to have organized crime links while at the same time this is happening, becoming an explosive issue in the national press.

All my employees are out except the manager and security chief, they are being accused of invading my own property and staling from Olivia in a grave way, exactly the crimes we are accusing her.
This is becoming a Presidential campaign issue and I do not think Olivia is going to survive this national press coverage.

Enviado el: lunes, 13 de febrero de 2012 12:23 p.m.
Para: 'Rafael Munoz'
Asunto: Baja Nomads

Thanks for clearing your name. A former PB resident has posted some old e-mails between you and her which also support your facts. Nomads are coming to believe Olivia and Mark were not the victims in all of this. That is a big step for some of these people who were friends of theirs and who were very vocal against you years ago. You were patient and waited for Olivia and Mark to make their mistakes. Good job.

ramuma53 - 2-14-2012 at 09:34 AM

Your questions about Federal Zone are on the spot
Olivia is claiming to have 3000 m2 Federal Zone while all my houses are out of Federal Zone and not posibly included.
3000 m2 at that rate will be a very high rent for a small restaurant, plus the diesel to kep the light on every day plus 3 to 5 employees??????? Would any of you be able to keep paying 10 years of high paying attorneys also?
while only having a few nomads from time to time????????????????

This tell you that something alse is happening there during the nights.

This is no longer a secret,it is all over National news in Mexico city, Olivia belong to the Pacific cartel and is out in the open.

All this was another attempt of her to grabb my property with official complicity this time, but they never expected the national news coverage and I am suing the governor, Estate district attorney, North zone district attorney local district attorney and estate policeman who acted that day detaining my people.

The Mulege city police chief already accepted on the national news that he saw no court or official order, that he did it only in support to the local district attorney who is a very good friend with Olivia and Nark because they are expecting to be partners on my hotel.

I am not going to stop this untill we clear all the bad weeds and my people is out and clear of any wrong doing, I do not care whou mach it takes or cost.

Skipjack Joe - 2-14-2012 at 09:57 AM

With the exception of Woosh, you no longer have any credibility on this board.

Woooosh - 2-14-2012 at 10:08 AM

I am sure you are aware of the implicit danger of this situation if it goes further, and it seems from your post that it surely will. If Olivia is indeed aligned with the Pacific Cartel (El Chapo and the Sinaloans), who is sweeping Baja- you will need to find a way to get your land back without the cartel feeling threatened. Of course everyone has alliances when they get powerful in Mexico, so I am sure you know where your support lies. If this comes down to CAF against El Chapo, that is a battle currently in full swing in Baja and El Chapos people have the money to buy or influence everyone in their way.

Land and lives do not have equal value.

mtgoat666 - 2-14-2012 at 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
blah, blah, blah


ram*****:
please explain why your employees conducted an armed blockade of property.
please tell us if you think that conducting an armed siege/blockade is acceptable behavior in any civilized society.

[Edited on 2-15-2012 by BajaNomad]

dtbushpilot - 2-14-2012 at 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
With the exception of Woosh, you no longer have any credibility on this board.


I respectfully disagree Skip, I'm not taking ramu's side or even suggesting that I believe his stories. I think I'll wait and see how things play out before I pass judgement.......

latina - 2-14-2012 at 10:38 AM

For a lawyer "ramuna" certainly is loose with his accusations against others...In his case it's too bad Mexico decriminalized defamation and slander ...
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