BajaNomad - BEV's, Hybrids and/or Independent Solar in Baja

IN MY OPINION, purchasing a Hybrid is like owning a Model T with
a trailer, so you can tow a horse if you can't find a gasoline station when you need it. And of course we know how history proved how flawed that strategy was.

IN MY OPINION, hybrids are merely a crutch for those who have range anxiety with a BEV. BEV's are still in their infancy stage. They are rapidly advancing in their development. Hybrids are a marketing tool by some auto manufacturers as a means to extract money from people who cannot see what the next 5 years holds for us in Baja California.

I used to be of the same opinion for when EV batteries will provide the full range required of them, or fast enough charging at a reasonable cost to permit transit over long distances. We aren't quite there yet in Baja, but hybrids will provide enough solar provided range for free to do 95% of the driving asked of them. Baja happens to have very rich solar capabilities and this can be provided very inexpensively at present. Until the present situation changes, Hybrids with limited range batteries of 60 to 80 miles can drastically reduce pollution and reduce expenses of petroleum based travel for a majority of people.

mtgoat666 - 6-7-2024 at 08:38 PM

I get rental cars frequently for work and personal travel. I have rented electric, and found it frustrating to refuel, and i do not like having to shop for hotels while limited to chargers.
I often get hybrids, fueling is easy.
I have found that electric is not ready for prime time of road tripping or rental market.
Maybe in in 5 years electric will be convenient,…
Until then, i am huffing gas.

oxxo - 6-7-2024 at 09:04 PM

We aren't quite there yet in Baja, but hybrids will provide enough solar provided range for free to do 95% of the driving asked of them.

According to research, Hybrids are effective for around town business, but on long trips, like Baja, they are effective for only 5 - 10% of that trip because owners have range anxiety so they depend on gasoline to make that trip. Yes, it does help to address climate change but it is not a strategy to solve the climate change issue caused by reliance on petrol chemicals.

Quote:

Hybrids with limited range batteries of 60 to 80 miles can drastically reduce pollution and reduce expenses of petroleum based travel for a majority of people.

No, the reliance on petrol chemicals, at any amount, does NOT drastically reduce pollution - minimally yes, but not drastically. Reducing expenses for travel on gasoline, is NOT a good reason for using gasoline. You drive a BEV to leave a better world than you inherited, not a less expensive world to you personally.

oxxo - 6-7-2024 at 09:20 PM

I get rental cars frequently for work and personal travel. I have rented electric, and found it frustrating to refuel, and i do not like having to shop for hotels while limited to chargers.

I find it frustrating to refuel at Costco, waiting in line for 20 minutes and more, and then behind someone who is talking on their cell phone while their tank is full.

About 99% of the time, I charge at home at night, like tonight, while I sleep. No frustration for me in that scenario.

Quote:

I have found that electric is not ready for prime time of road tripping or rental market.
Maybe in in 5 years electric will be convenient,…
Until then, i am huffing gas.

Do as you wish, but in the meantime, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Who would want to be inconvenienced by breathing dirty in a rapidly evolving climate change environment.

JDCanuck - 6-7-2024 at 09:35 PM

This is the solution we have found til now here in Canada. We do 95% of our driving (local only) with a Leaf EV on 97% renewables sourced power at a cost of .043 USD per mile and charging every week or two on level 1 or 2 chargers. Longer distance travel outside that radius will be done with a hybrid with a drastically reduced MPGe of perhaps 80 MPGe compared to a 20 mpg petrol vehicle. The technology to exceed that does not exist yet to meet our transport needs. But in Baja, with extremely low cost solar it does, but only at present using hybrids that can be charged for free with a small additional investment in excess panels. If 95-98% of the driving can be accomplished with solar power sourced power, how is that a negative as compared to petrol fueled travel?

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-7-2024 at 10:18 PM

When BEV does not yet supply 100% of our needs for transportation, we look to some alternative that gets us 90 percent of the way there. This isn't capitulation, its progress. I am one who firmly believes that technology will advance and very soon, with Solid State batteries (or one of the presently researched alternatives) we will be able to break through the mileage barriers we now face and both land and air travel can be accomplished fully with EV sources

surabi - 6-7-2024 at 10:25 PM

You drive a BEV to leave a better world than you inherited, not a less expensive world to you personally.

Here's something I don't quite understand- when people say they don't want an EV because the infrastructure, i.e. charging stations "just isn't there yet", it seems like they aren't thinking about supply and demand. It seems obvious to me that the more people who start asking hotels and Airbnbs if they can charge their EV there if they book with them, the more likely those businesses are to realize, hey, this is going to up our business, and provide EV chargers.

If people just keep driving gas-fueled cars or even hybrids, because there aren't enough public chargers, there's no incentive to supply chargers, because the demand isn't there.

I would love to have an EV, but I simply don't have the $ to buy one at this point, so I'm just going to have to stick with my old gas guzzler for now, which I'll probably drive til it dies. But when it does, I'll definitely be going for an EV. I really don't drive that much, so there's that. A shopping day for me is a day-long affair, with about 10 different stops, as I try to get everything I'll need for several weeks at once. I probably drive a total of about 8 hours a month, if that.

Another thing that affects whether someone can get along with an EV, just charging it up overnight at home, not having to be concerned about range til the next charging station, is what your life looks like. Someone who is retired, or who works from home usually doesn't have the same transportation concerns or the same time constraints as someone who needs to drive to work every day, pick up work materials, see clients, ferry kids around, etc.

Another thing is, unless I was just going to sell my car for scrap rather than to someone else, and buy an EV, my old gas guzzler is still going to be driving around polluting, it will just be someone else who is causing the pollution, not me. So it doesn't really solve the pollution problem.

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 6-7-2024 at 11:59 PM

Quote:

I get rental cars frequently for work and personal travel. I have rented electric, and found it frustrating to refuel, and i do not like having to shop for hotels while limited to chargers.

I find it frustrating to refuel at Costco, waiting in line for 20 minutes and more, and then behind someone who is talking on their cell phone while their tank is full.

I dont fuel at costco. Silly to wait in line for gas. Cheap gas available lots of places ofher than costco, and no lines!

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 05:10 AM

Affordability is the main reason people do not convert. You can presently spend 20,000 extra to buy an EV, under the expectation of reducing your personal carbon footprint somewhat over 10 years if you actually keep it that long. Or...you can take that 20,000 and install solar panels and offset the coal, oil and other hydrocarbon power supply you would otherwise use. This is the choice most people in Baja are faced with and so far, solar power is the better investment, as even moderately poorer people are able to slowly replace their CFE power with solar. In Baja, CFE electric is less than 21% renewables and falling as more and more diesel generating units come into the grid. If you drive an EV there and charge off the grid, you are reducing the carbon footprint by 21% for that 20,000 investment. If you install solar panels, the reduction is 100%

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 05:21 AM

Or...install 30,000 worth of solar panels, power your house, and have enough additional solar generated power to accomplish 95% of your driving with either a plug-in hybrid on solar sourced electric or a BEV and in addition have a gas powered vehicle for the other 5%. You will now be using 5% of the petrol fuels you did previously and none of the power will be from the high hydrocarbon CFE power in Baja. What might really surprise some is of this relatively dirty CFE power in Baja California, a full 1/4 is exported to California to supply their ever increasing demand for grid power. If you drive an EV in California at present, you will be powering the EV on 60% renewables sourced power if you charge from the grid, 100% if you charge from installed solar panels.

https://iamericas.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Baja_Energy...

Currently Baja California has 14 operational utility scale power plants with a combined installed
capacity of 4,049 megawatts (MW). However, not all of the units are under the same regulatory
framework. With 1,102 MW destined for export to California, that leaves Baja California with an
effective installed capacity of 2,947 MW.

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by JDCanuck]

Just curious about panels.....

AKgringo - 6-8-2024 at 06:41 AM

Aside from storm damage, do they degrade over time?

A promising development concerning EV safety

AKgringo - 6-8-2024 at 06:59 AM

Self-extinguishing batteries: www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/scientists-make-breakthroug...

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 07:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Aside from storm damage, do they degrade over time?

Well, the last ones i checked were guaranteed for 20 years with minimal degradation of I think 15%? So after 20 years you would want to upgrade or install more...maybe? Ours have been in service for 3 years now with no noticeable degradation, we did deplete the batteries for about 1 hour overnite before they started charging again on 2 occasions before we increased the battery storage by 60%. We had to go around and reset the clocks on appliances.
The LiFePO4 solar storage batteries are rated at 6000 cycles at 90 percent discharges per cycle. This is significantly better than the lithium packs used in vehicles and there have never been fire problems with this type of battery chemistry.

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 6-8-2024 at 08:36 AM

EV's just dont have the range and convenience to make them feasible for most of us at this point. I am very happy with the performance, range, convenience and reliability of my diesel powered truck.

surabi - 6-8-2024 at 09:29 AM

If you install solar panels, the reduction is 100%

As far as driving your solar charged EV and your household consumption goes. But unless there is no carbon footprint involved in the production and transportation of the solar equipment you buy and install, and no carbon footprint involved in the manufacture and transportation of an EV one would purchase, which isn't the case at present, it would take awhile of being off-grid to offset that.

Not sure if anyone has developed an app where you could enter your numbers and get an answer to how long being exclusively on solar would balance out the carbon footprint, but it would be a useful tool.

For instance, I currently use about 90kw of CFE electricity per month, and one tank of gasoline per month. That has a carbon footprint of X.
If I were to switch to solar, and buy an EV, the production and shipping of that equipment creates a carbon footprint of Y.

How many months or years would it take for X to balance out Y?

Obviously, for heavy consumers of electricity and those who drive a lot, it's going to balance out fairly quickly, but for low consumers like me, I'm really curious as to how long it would take for me to be a person who had reduced my carbon footprint, all factors considered.

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 09:32 AM

EV certainly not for everyone...yet. I suspect if we can get the same energy output density by weight as gasoline carries that will change. Apparently, this is a possibility with new technology being developed.
This would mean an electric motor at 85% efficiency would need to have storage batteries weighing less than 4 times the weight of gasoline fuel tank with IC engines running at 21% efficiency.
We locally have a commercial air line about to fly people from here to Vancouver on their converted to Electric planes. Test flights were completed 2 years ago.
https://harbourair.com/harbour-airs-all-electric-aircraft-op...

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 10:10 AM

If you install solar panels, the reduction is 100%

Now that is an interesting question. How much MORE energy and pollution is caused in producing solar panels than a new diesel generator that is presently being built to supply our increased power demand. How much MORE energy or pollution goes into an EV compared to the IC vehicle you will instead replace your current one with.
For us it was easy...we built a house and put 10% of total cost into the solar system. No additional power poles, generating plants or additional lines were required to power our home (the cost of this alternative was many times greater) and our power will be available for 20 years without any appreciable additional expense.
When people cost out solar or EVs they tend to look only at the cost of the purchase, but do not factor out the cost of alternatives. Baja has an extreme solar capability, as does California and several southern states. Here in Canada, we would need more than twice the number of panels to achieve the same power output.
The average factor per day in Baja where we built was 5.5 times the rated power wattage per day in watt hours produced. So with a bit over 10kw panels we averaged over 55kwh per day through the year available to be used.

Now the EV: In our case we purchased a used EV when we needed a newer vehicle. It has effectively 3 years use on the batteries, and we paid 5,000 more than we would have for an IC car that would get 25mpg of the same age. So the additional cost of 5000 has to be recovered over the next 7 years, or about 700 per year. I have to admit, this car is far more pleasurable to drive than our last compact IC car. Tighter turning radius by far, very very quiet even at freeway speeds and automatic braking which reduced our insurance costs as well. Heated seats, heated steering wheel are overkill and we definitely seldom use them. E-pedal regenerative braking means we very seldom ever touch the brake pedal as releasing the gas pedal slows the car pretty quickly.
I could not justify the extra 20,000 or more extra cost to buy a new EV and I suspect you are in the same situation. We only put about 10,000 km per year on all our vehicles combined now that we are retired.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by JDCanuck]

cupcake - 6-8-2024 at 04:31 PM

I don't have an EV, but I appreciate their promise, in regards to better air quality. I lived in the Inland Empire of southern California in the 60s and 70s, when the summer smog was absolutely horrific. Much better now due to government emissions restrictions. I am all for reducing air pollution.

I am reading that with 1.7 million electric vehicles currently on the roads in California, drivers are saying there are not enough public chargers. With the time required to charge an EV varying depending on the charger used, from 30 minutes to a number of hours, I am trying to envision what the situation would be if the total number of vehicles on the road were electric (California has more than 30 million registered vehicles). What kind of charging 'bottleneck' would this possibly create? It might be necessary to restrict driving days, or possibly charging days. With the current state of EV charging technology, it seems to me that there would be a real traffic jam, or 'charging jam', unless the number of EV charging stations were made to far exceed the number of gasoline stations that currently meet the needs of vehicles on the road.

Not Enough Chargers in Top EV Market California, Drivers Say
https://www.voanews.com/a/not-enough-chargers-in-top-ev-mark...

[Edited on 6-8-2024 by cupcake]

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 05:33 PM

I am sure there will continue to be a flooded market of used BEVs as the newest models continue to improve in range or charging options. This should allow you to buy a heavily discounted and mildly used EV much cheaper than at present that you can charge cheaply and slowly at home and use for shorter trips up to 200 miles only.
As long as we charge only at home, our costs to charge and time to charge are not an issue to deter us. At 180 km per week average so far we can recharge once per week overnite on only 120v 12 amps which everyone should have at home. Just don't plan on taking any longer trips where you have to risk public charging station problems.
I think Sayulita to PV is well within the range of most BEV's sold now for instance.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-8-2024 at 06:12 PM

Yes, I wouldn't be concerned about range. I don't go on road trips- I just run into town a couple times a week and make a PV trip an average of once every 3 weeks.

What I would be concerned about if I bought a used EV in Mexico is repair if something went wrong. My friend in Canada had something go wrong with her Hyundai Kona, I don't remember the issue, but it necessitated it being in the shop for a week. She had bought it new, and paid for a good extended warranty, so the repair didn't cost her anything and they gave her a loaner car.

But how many EV mechanics are there in Mexico? And if it's anything like getting repairs done on gas-powered cars, taking it to a dealership, if it isn't under warranty, is way more expensive than a good backyard mechanic.

When I bought my previous car, a Honda CRV, from a friend here in Mexico when she was moving back to Canada, she gave me a good deal, because the suspension needed work. She said she had taken it to the Honda dealer in PV, where they said it needed new shocks, to the tune of $800US.
My Mexican mechanic checked it out, said there was nothing wrong with the shocks- it needed a new boot. He did that, it fixed the problem, and only cost a few hundred pesos. :-)

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-8-2024 at 06:34 PM

So....it pays in this case not to be the first on the block to embrace new tech, but wait until the locals are familiar with the technology. Its not the drive trains that are overly done, its all the keyless entry and immobilizers, automatic lighting systems, emergency braking, lane change corrections and facial recognition, etc. that will be causing the majority of problems.

JDCanuck - 6-9-2024 at 10:06 AM

I think the more important issue as it relates to BEV's in Baja is the proportion of grid power that is NOT provided with high CO2 and SO3 producing fossil fuels. The articles I have accessed indicate only under 21% is from renewable sources in BC and in BCS the majority of additional power demand was being supplied by Portable Diesel Generators.
At present, until the grid is supplied by a far higher percentage of renewables, it might be a better investment to install solar panels with the goal of ultimately powering your EV's from them.

My combined installed costs for solar including 32kwh of LiFePO4 storage batteries in BCS was more than twice yours for a 3000sq ft home, so I am assuming you have a grid tied system while I had fully off grid independent of CFE power and a somewhat larger home with designed excess to power a limited amount of EV charging. My max output was a bit over 55kwh per day averaged throughout the year, over 60kwh per day during the hottest months. There was enough excess unused solar power still available to provide about 70 miles of EV driving daily by either a BEV or a hybrid.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-9-2024 at 10:25 AM

You make some good points and are definitely on the right path Canuckistani (don't take the name personally, this is a self-deprecating joke shared with me by my very conservative Canadian friends).

Regardless of some minor difference in our viewpoints, I sincerely applaud your accomplishments!

Live long and prosper.

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 12:35 PM

A common theme I read here is, "BEV's don't make economic sense to me personally." I agree with you. The state of the current BEV/Solar Panel technology does not make sense as far as IMMEDIATE payout.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by oxxo]

While my friend in Canada with the Hyundai BEV doesn't have solar and charges o'nite on her grid electric, she has seen a positive immediate economic advantage.
She bought the vehicle new, and it certainly was not cheap, so of course she didn't pay for it in cash, she has monthly payments.

But those monthly payments are around the same as what she worked out that she is saving in $ by not filling her vehicle with gas. For working folks who commute to work, as she does (a 45 minute drive each way, 5 days a week), and who would otherwise spend a lot on gas, the EV makes almost immediate personal economic sense, apart from wanting to be part of the pollution solution rather than adding to the problem.

There were also several thousand $ in govt. rebates for switching to EV that she took advantage of.

JDCanuck - 6-9-2024 at 12:51 PM

I agree in Canada with the very high percentage of renewables, mainly hydro, it makes sense to drive an EV. The trick is making it pay you back economically while reducing your carbon footprint.
Its a lot tougher in Baja.
We looked at buying an EV a few years back in Canada for CAD 53000 after rebates. Or...we could invest the same 53000 in a solar system in Baja. We chose the latter as the payback was far higher in reducing the carbon footprint and at the same time would eventually pay for itself. Seems like a lot of money to pay, but the lot was far cheaper as it was understood you would have to supply solar power than an equivalent sized lot with CFE access would have cost.
For people currently paying the lowest tier for CFE power in Mexico it will be very hard to justify solar unless their power demands push them up to the higher priced tier, or they decide it is justified as a carbon free power source to charge an EV. At a minimum, I think a 3kw solar system with inversion to 120v at 12 amps would be needed to power an EV for shorter trips of 40-50 miles per day.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by JDCanuck]

RFClark - 6-9-2024 at 01:57 PM

The numbers are somewhat confusing but running EVs an PHEVs from solar is far better than running them from Thermal generating stations.

This site calculates both upstream and tailpipe emissions for EVs and PHEVs

Average gas car emissions in California are 400g/mi

2022 Kia Niro PHEV or EV on grid electricity 83g/mi even less with solar
electricity

22g/KWH is the estimated total emissions for solar panels which works out to 6g/mi when the electricity is used in a car.

The total upstream emissions from thermal natural gas fired generating plants is 420-480g/KWH obviously this is not included in the EV/PHEV per mile numbers.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt2 Site for calculations

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2024 at 02:12 PM

You guys obsess over energy use of automobiles, but are probably missing the bigger picture…

Car transport is just one aspect of your personal energy consumption.

***

How much energy powers a good life? Less than you're using, says a new report
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/12/1092045712/how-much-energy-po...

How much energy does it take to have a good and healthy life? A new Stanford University study has found that the answer is far less than the average American is using.

Comparing energy use and quality of life across 140 countries, researchers found that the magic number is 75 gigajoules a year, or less. For context, one gigajoule of energy is equal to about 8 gallons of gasoline.

Americans use 284 gigajoules a year per capita, nearly four times that much energy, according to the new research.

"That suggests to me that we could nudge energy use downwards in a bunch of hyper-consuming countries and not just make a more equitable world, but perhaps make ourselves healthier and happier," said lead author and professor of earth system science Rob Jackson.
:light:

***

The U.S. has long used more energy for air conditioning than all other nations combined. USA uses more electricity for cooling than the entire continent of Africa, home to a billion people, consumes for all purposes..
https://e360.yale.edu/features/cooling_a_warming_planet_a_gl...

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by mtgoat666]

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 03:05 PM

I try to conserve various types of energy as much as possible. It's not just the cost involved, but not wasting resources.
For instance, I only light my propane hot water tank 20 minutes before I am going to take a shower. I don't even leave the pilot light burning. Of course this isn't as convenient as just leaving it on all the time, but it only takes about 3 minutes to light it. There's no reason to have a tank of super hot water sitting there, constantly reheating when the temperature drops, for hours a day and overnight when I don't need hot water.

And because my water is gravity fed from a big black tinako on the roof, the water is never really cold, and in the summer, it's almost warmer than you want it. The hot water tank basically never gets lit from June until November.

I also don't leave electric consuming things on when I am not using them, like my computer. My electronics, like the TV and DVD player are plugged in to a power bar, which gets unplugged when I am not using those things. So there are no devices or appliances which have those little red lights or clocks on them which are on all the time.

I do have to leave fans on in the summer to keep the air moving so things don't get funky with the rain and high humidity. But they are turned down to low unless I am in the room.

Most Americans (and probably Canadians) don't really think about this stuff or bother to try to conserve energy, or even care. Just like not wanting an EV because you might have to spend half an hour at a charging station, "convenience" seems to be super important and if it continues to be more important to people than conserving resources and cutting down on pollution, the state of the planet will not get better. When I've pointed out to friends and family that all those little red lights on their appliances and devices are sucking electricity for no good reason, the reply is usually, "Yeah, but it's only a tiny bit." But tiny bits add up, especially when everyone is using "only a tiny bit".

If I just left my hot water tank turned on all the time, not only is it a waste of propane, it means I would have to get propane deliveries more often, so the delivery truck is also using more gas or diesel fuel.

I have a friend who is the impatient and not detail-oriented type. She was staying with me and was making a fruit salad one day. She was peeling the mangoes in a way that was leaving a good deal of the flesh on the skin. I said, "Whoa- you're cutting off half the mango with the skin and throwing it in the compost". Her irritated response was "I'll buy more mangoes, okay?"
I explained that that wasn't the issue for me when it comes to wasting food- it was that that mango was grown, picked, packed, shipped, unpacked and put out on the store shelf, only for her to throw half of it in the compost, because she couldn't be bothered to peel it properly.

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-9-2024 by surabi]

oxxo - 6-9-2024 at 04:15 PM

I have a friend who is the impatient and not detail-oriented type. She was staying with me and was making a fruit salad one day. She was peeling the mangoes in a way that was leaving a good deal of the flesh on the skin. I said, "Whoa- you're cutting off half the mango with the skin and throwing it in the compost". Her irritated response was "I'll buy more mangoes, okay?"
I explained that that wasn't the issue for me when it comes to wasting food- it was that that mango was grown, picked, packed, shipped, unpacked and put out on the store shelf, only for her to throw half of it in the compost, because she couldn't be bothered to peel it properly.

Oh, @ Surabi, I hope you didn't lose a friend because of that! Friends are too valuable to lose over a simple misunderstanding. The next time she comes over, you peel the mangoes and let her de-thorn the nopales!

oxxo - 6-9-2024 at 04:33 PM

How much energy does it take to have a good and healthy life?

A long, long time ago, I spent two years on a remote island, 1 mile wide x 3 miles long, in the middle of the ocean. I existed on zero energy other than building a fire to cook. If I didn't spear any edible fish that day, it was just pineapples and bananas to eat. I lived in a simple thatched hut, 10' x 20'. Since I lived at the edge of the lagoon, I even survived a tornado waterspout that tore through my yard in the middle of the night. Did I have a "good and healthy life?" Absolutely, yes I did, but I also learned that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life that way!!! :light:

Boondocking in the Baja desert in a camper pickup would be a luxurious lifestyle compared to what I endured!

So I enjoy all the comforts and convenience of life today but realize that it does cost me money to live a life with a manageable and reasonable minimized carbon footprint.

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 06:23 PM

I actually haven't talked to her in several years, but not because we had a falling out, we just kind of lost touch. We both acknowledged that we were like sisters who fight a lot, but love each other and then kiss and make up.

I once stayed with her at her home in Denver and worked for her in her gardening business for a month. We irritated the hell out of each other on the job, because we do things totally differently. At the end of the day, we'd come home, shower, fix ourselves a c-cktail and have a great evening yakking, making dinner, and playing scrabble.

There's friends you can do almost anything with and have a good time. And others you can't live or work with, but nonetheless enjoy each other's company.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-9-2024 at 06:48 PM

Goat: The remedy to increasingly hot temps to avoid heat related deaths is unfortunately more AC which will in turn drive temps even higher. Or...you can move to a colder place like Canada or Alaska and delay the need for AC. Our provincial government is now handing out free AC units to try to keep the hot season deaths down.

RFClark - 6-9-2024 at 06:53 PM

Most of those who would make you “Live like a refugee” don’t do it themselves!

If you have solar the sun shines whether you use it or not!!If you have a well and recycle grey water and AC condensate you probably return most of the water back to the water table. In our area the un-pumped water flows back into the sea and is lost.

The list goes on and on! It’s exactly like being told to “eat all your vegetables because there are children who are starving”!

JDCanuck - 6-9-2024 at 07:06 PM

RFClark: Thanks for that site, very informative. Unfortunately, it did not accept the Baja area code i tried to enter to get an idea of local to Baja benefits

RFClark - 6-9-2024 at 07:12 PM

JD,

Since most electricity in BCS is generated from dirty oil 580g/KWH is probably a better number for the total upstream cost.

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 08:27 PM

In our area the un-pumped water flows back into the sea and is lost.

??? Water that flows into the ocean isn't "lost". Water evaporates from the sea, creates clouds and rain, which then replenishes the water table. That's like grade school science.

Tioloco - 6-9-2024 at 09:12 PM

In our area the un-pumped water flows back into the sea and is lost.

??? Water that flows into the ocean isn't "lost". Water evaporates from the sea, creates clouds and rain, which then replenishes the water table. That's like grade school science.

I believe he understands that concept. The funny thing is you fear mongers were telling everyone to not brush teeth or take long showers because of wasting water. Ludicrous indeed.

Back on topic, Solar doesnt work in a large number of areas that are outside of the desert environment.

oxxo - 6-9-2024 at 09:37 PM

In our area the un-pumped water flows back into the sea and is lost.

??? Water that flows into the ocean isn't "lost". Water evaporates from the sea, creates clouds and rain, which then replenishes the water table. That's like grade school science.

You are both correct, I understand both of your points and agree with them. I think the disagreement between you two is a matter of semantics. Nothing to get worked up over.

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 11:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Solar doesnt work in a large number of areas that are outside of the desert environment.

Of course it does. Desert has nothing to do with it. Solar panels work whenever there is sun. You think it's only sunny in the desert? I live in the tropics. Half the people I know here power their homes with solar.

RFClark - 6-9-2024 at 11:00 PM

Because of its shape BCS can be thought of as an island with a mountain range running down the middle.

“If you are looking for a waterway between land and sea, you can start by looking beneath your feet.”

“People think of rivers, which is a natural thing to come to mind,” said Nils Moosdorf, a professor of hydrogeology at Kiel University in Germany. “But groundwater has an invisible connection that is usually not considered.”

Moosdorf himself was not aware of this connection until 2012, when, as a graduate student studying river transport, he attended a scientific talk about how 10 times more groundwater leaves the Big Island of Hawaii than river water. “That was an eye-opener because I never heard about groundwater going directly to the ocean before,” Moosdorf said. “And I thought, ‘Oh wait, that must be interesting,’ and then I started to get into that.”

https://eos.org/articles/groundwater-is-the-hidden-connectio...

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 11:35 PM

My little bubble that isn't in the desert, where you claimed solar doesn't work?

People use solar power all around the world. How much they can generate is only dependent on how often the sun shines, but it shines everywhere some of the time and most of the time in tons of places that aren't desert. Sand and cactus is not required.

"The top installers of 2022 included China, the United States, and India. Japan, Brazil, the Netherlands, France, Mexico and Germany were also among the top installers of 2022. The available solar PV capacity in Australia is now sufficient to supply more than 15% of the nation's electrical energy while Honduras, Italy, Spain, Germany and Greece can produce between 9% and 14% of their respective annual domestic electricity consumption."

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

surabi - 6-9-2024 at 11:52 PM

You said solar doesn't work in a large number of places outside of the desert. That's patently false. Desert has nothing to do with solar power. Pointing that out is neither rude nor aggressive.

Calling people names, like simpleton, is, though.

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 07:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco

Back on topic, Solar doesnt work in a large number of areas that are outside of the desert environment.

That statement is demonstrably incorrect. Solar DOES work "in a LARGE number of areas that are outside of the desert environment." Perhaps you meant to say that solar is more efficient in some areas (like the desert) than in other areas (like in the mountains with more shading by tree cover). I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that would be a correct statement.

In fact, solar panel technology development is making great strides to become more efficient on cloudy days! Yep, that was a welcome surprise to me! With this new technololgy, solar panels will not be as efficient on cloudy days as sunny days, but the will become more efficient than before on cloudy. How they do that, I don't know.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 08:00 AM

Seattle or even further north here on Vancouver Island, we would require at least 2 times the sq footage of panels for the same annual output as Baja. It should be noted that Pacific Coast of BCS has the best solar capability of Mexico, US and Canada, which makes that area particularly solar friendly.
Regardless, there are lots of solar powered facilities up here and more being installed each year as costs continue to decline and grid power rates increase. Even in Seattle their comparatively cheap grid power is more expensive than tier one CFE power in Baja, so the payback to install solar in Seattle is not as poor in comparison as you would think, especially considering the rebates and subsidies from government not available in Baja.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 09:05 AM

Seattle or even further north here on Vancouver Island, we would require at least 2 times the sq footage of panels for the same annual output as Baja. It should be noted that Pacific Coast of BCS has the best solar capability of Mexico, US and Canada, which makes that area particularly solar friendly.
Regardless, there are lots of solar powered facilities up here and more being installed each year as costs continue to decline and grid power rates increase. Even in Seattle their comparatively cheap grid power is more expensive than tier one CFE power in Baja, so the payback to install solar in Seattle is not as poor in comparison as you would think, especially considering the rebates and subsidies from government not available in Baja.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by JDCanuck]

I wish they had a "LIKE" button on BN, it would make agreement much more simple.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 09:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Even in Seattle their comparatively cheap grid power is more expensive than tier one CFE power in Baja,

Hard to compete; my understanding is that tier one is subsidized to below actual cost of production. :light:

Thats my understanding as well. It makes it difficult to justify solar panels in Mexico until your power demand gets into the higher cost tier. I still noted a lot of solar panels being installed in the residential neighborhoods in the Puerto Vallarta area when I was there 4 years back. I guessed they must have been some of the higher power demand locals or they were already driving EVs or hybrids they wanted to charge. These were not expats but locals, and I observed several trucks driving through the areas advertising solar systems, similar to the water and gas delivery trucks that drive around even that long ago.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 10:49 AM

The main reason people seem to put in solar in the PV area is for AC. Anyone who uses AC will certainly end up in the DAC rate without it, unless they only use the AC very sparingly.

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 10:58 AM

In fact, solar panel technology development is making great strides to become more efficient on cloudy days! Yep, that was a welcome surprise to me! With this new technololgy, solar panels will not be as efficient on cloudy days as sunny days, but the will become more efficient than before on cloudy. How they do that, I don't know.

Well, if people can get a sunburn even on a cloudy day, which they can, I guess it might work on a similar principal, although UV is only a small part of the visible light spectrum that powers solar panels.

A cloudy day might seem dark, but plenty of light passes through clouds.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 10:59 AM

The main reason people seem to put in solar in the PV area is for AC. Anyone who uses AC will certainly end up in the DAC rate without it, unless they only use the AC very sparingly.

Hadn't considered that, but it makes sense. AC is fast becoming a necessity for more and more people.

cupcake - 6-10-2024 at 11:14 AM

Goat: The remedy to increasingly hot temps to avoid heat related deaths is unfortunately more AC which will in turn drive temps even higher. Or...you can move to a colder place like Canada or Alaska and delay the need for AC. Our provincial government is now handing out free AC units to try to keep the hot season deaths down.

This reminded me of a newspaper article I read many years ago while working in Phoenix, Arizona. The article reported on the house a man had built, which used no AC but was cool throughout the hot season (most of the year). The lower half of the house was below ground level, but what really did the trick was that the man had installed very large pipes below the foundation of the house, in a system which brought cool air up into the house. Apparently, at a certain level below ground the air remains at a constant 55 degrees year around, regardless of the surface temperature. I am probably not remembering this report 100% accurately, but I am sure I have the gist of it right.

I have always been amazed that nearly 100% of homes in arid regions exhibit landscaping that requires watering, when in all cases native vegetation thrives, looks beautiful (at least to my eyes), and does so on whatever the annual rainfall is.

I had a septic tank, which would water two large trees, any excess being returned to the water table (currently I am between houses).

I lived in the Orient for years and became a water-wiper decades ago. No more toilet paper in the septic tank = many more years between pumping. No paper in the public restroom?...no problem, I have my small water bottle.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by cupcake]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 11:21 AM

These folks knew how to cool their homes centuries ago. It's also beautiful architecture.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/07/28/world/iran-wind...

cupcake - 6-10-2024 at 11:33 AM

Interesting article^^

I note the use of underground aqueducts for cooling, in addition to the wind catchers.

I've spent considerable time in some of the hottest places and always prefer a fan over AC.

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

I have always been amazed that nearly 100% of homes in arid regions exhibit landscaping that requires watering, when in all cases native vegetation thrives, looks beautiful (at least to my eyes), and does so on whatever the annual rainfall is.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by cupcake]

One of the major obstacles in getting first-worlders to get on board with what we need to do to deal with the effects of climate change is the attitude of indulging one's "wants" (as opposed to one's needs and what is practical).

We want tropical gardens and grass in arid environments, to have all foods which can't grow in our location available to us year-round, to spend less money by buying cheap goods made in China, then say whatever we do to combat climate change is pointless as long as China continues to be a major polluter.

People complain about being told what to do by their governments, but that wouldn't be necessary if everyone did the right thing on their own and considered something other than their own desires, convenience and comfort.

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 11:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

I've spent considerable time in some of the hottest places and always prefer a fan over AC.

I don't like AC either and only have fans. The only exception is appreciating AC in the car when stuck in heavy traffic when it's hot and humid out.

What I find bizarre is in Canada, when the spring and early summer drags on cold and rainy, Canadians say they wish real summer would come. Then as soon as it gets warm, every store is refrigerated to Arctic temperatures and the employees are all wearing sweaters. :?:

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 12:18 PM

Its true people survived to old age in the past in hot climates without AC, but old age was also a couple decades younger than present. I will accept AC as a necessary evil if it contributes to people living 20 years longer.

cupcake - 6-10-2024 at 12:57 PM

I am aware of the Harvard study reportedly linking AC to longer life. However, I feel I will live just as long without AC as I would with it.

Certainly, AC is better than dying of heat related illness.

For me, a person well-acclimated to hot environments, I find that AC gives me a general feeling of being unwell.

The negative symptoms of AC cited in this linked article are what I experience.
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/ss/slideshow-what-ac-doe...

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 01:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

I've spent considerable time in some of the hottest places and always prefer a fan over AC.

As I said earlier in this thread, I lived on a small island, near the equator for 2 years. I had no electricity for two years and almost zero carbon foootprint. I had no AC and no fans. Day temperatures were in the 90's and humidity was in the 90's. We received about 10" of rain a month, so I devised a catchment system to catch some of the rain runoff, then boiled the water before drinking. I acclimatized to the weather quickly and as was reasonably comfortable most of the time. And then there was always the warm lagoon to swim and the warm trade winds.

My point is, you can acclimate to almost any weather condition if you want to. I know that my Canadian neighbors in Los Cabos come down towards the end of November and return home sometime in April. That is their way acclimating to weather! In the past, I would often avoid the winter "high season" in Los Cabos and live there from May to the end of October - had the location all to myself.

The US Federal Government is now offering financial incentives for (not only Solar, but also) heat pump HVAC (that's both heating and cooling), electric ranges, qualifying refrigerators and washer/elec. dryers and water heaters. Couple those installations with your solar panels and you can run your house whatever way you want for virtually no cost (other than purchasing the amortized, subsidized equipment and the environmental cost of manufacturing that equipment which is sustainable).

Why is it always so cold in a hospital/medical facility? Because bacteria, viruses, and germs proliferate in a warm atmosphere and die off in cooler environments. But that is no excuse to keep your home at a freezing temperature. A HEALTHY person can easily ward off germs by acclimating to a warmer, natural environment (outside ambient temperature). Some would call that "living like a refugee" and "three bowls of rice a day and a bicycle," but maybe that refugee just might be healthier than you are!?

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 01:30 PM

It always seemed to me to be taxing to one's body to constantly go from an air-conditioned environment to the outside when it is hot and humid out.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to the temperatures one can withstand, though. Overweight people tend to have a hard time with the heat, thin people with no body fat layer get cold easier. Some people have better circulation than others or other medical conditions that affect their ability to adapt to temperature extremes. Women going through menopause often have a hard time with hot weather.

And the older you get, the more temperatures seem to affect people. Does anyone remember being too cold or too hot when you were a child? We'd stay in the water til our lips were blue and our parents made us get out. We'd be told to put on a sweater and say, "But I'm not cold!" There was this crazy game all the neighborhood kids came up with when I was a kid. We'd climb up onto the raised open garage door, in the small space between the door and the ceiling, in the summer and lay there sweating. The one who could stay up there the longest won.

But for the most part, humans are just wimps and don't see any reason to acclimate if they can just turn on the AC or heat or afford to have homes in more than one location.

There is an Airbnb host in Croatia who asked on a hosting forum if all Americans just always had either the AC or the heat on, as all her American guests did, even when it was a very comfortable 70 degrees out and all they had to do was open the windows. :lol:

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by surabi]

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 01:30 PM

OXXO,

Hospitals are cold in ORs, ICUs and ERs for the comfort of the staff who usually are overdressed. Most of the patients are freezing or sedated. Even then the staff often goes outdoors if it’s warm and sunny. And before someone asks, I worked in those places for about 10 years.

On the subject of climate control. In a well insulated structure mid 70’s at 50% humidity is healthy, but the number of timed the air exchanges per hour is also important and should be 4 to 6 times depending on the number of people and the activity. There is also an issue with VOCs (things you can smell or sometimes not) most of these important things are not addressed except in the very best of new construction. All the current talk about gas appliances is simply the tip of that “iceberg” fumes from gas appliances are also VOCs.

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 01:30 PM

Its true people survived to old age in the past in hot climates without AC, but old age was also a couple decades younger than present. I will accept AC as a necessary evil if it contributes to people living 20 years longer.

@JD, AC has nothing to do with it. A healthy diet and lots of exercise (walking is recommended for old people like us - not golf, tennis, or pickle ball) is required if you want to live 20 years longer. Some of the longest lived people live in hot climates with no AC and no cars (been there, done that) Since I have a dog, we walk together 5 miles a day, pretty much 7 days a week. My doctor says I am going to live into my 100's. And in coastal California, where I have my primary residence, there is rarely a need for AC even though the average ambient temperature is creeping up each year and I can acclimate to small increasing temperatures each year.

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2024 at 01:35 PM

AC a necessary evil? Is it really necessary? AC used to extend life span may be “unnecessary” for some. What is necessary?

Increase in life span causes increase in carbon footprint. A logical argument may be made that the climate would be better off if people only live as long as necessary to procreate and raise kids until they can live on their own.

Extra lifespan perhaps is just indulgence, eh?

Just saying….

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 01:44 PM

Lions, tigers and goats oh my!

Do feel free to lead your campaign from the front and by example!

FYI low here was 58F last night the solar heat pumps in the heat mode rather than burning propane or natural gas for heat.

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by RFClark]

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 01:47 PM

Hospitals are cold in ORs, ICUs and ERs for the comfort of the staff who usually are overdressed. Most of the patients are freezing or sedated. Even then the staff often goes outdoors if it’s warm and sunny. And before someone asks, I worked in those places for about 10 years.

And cold in waiting rooms, exam rooms, everywhere, etc. I stand by my explanation why things are cold in medical facilities. And before someone asks, my youngest daughter is a Doctor and so is her husband (met as interns).

Quote:

On the subject of climate control. In a well insulated structure mid 70’s at 50% humidity is healthy, but the number of timed the air exchanges per hour is also important and should be 4 to 6 times depending on the number of people and the activity. There is also an issue with VOCs (things you can smell or sometimes not) most of these important things are not addressed except in the very best of new construction. All the current talk about gas appliances is simply the tip of that “iceberg” fumes from gas appliances are also VOCs.

The temperature inside a structure has nothing to do with it other than, in general and there are a few exceptions, "germs" have a more difficult time surviving in a colder environment.

I do agree with you that gas ranges (and appliances) are a health hazard on a number of different levels.

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 01:57 PM

A logical argument may be made that the climate would be better off if people only live as long as necessary to procreate and raise kids until they can live on their own.

Ahhhhh @Goat, you wanna take all the extra fun out of it? :lol:

I think there is a better way for all of us to live longer, posting to our heart's content, while still leaving this place a better place than we found it.....if we are only willing to embrace and welcome change....and we'll bring @TioLoco along with us, kicking and screaming in protest! :lol:

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 01:57 PM

Goat, that reminds me of a futuristic novel I read where everyone had all their teeth extracted at about the age of 12 when all their adult teeth had come in, replaced with a full set of implants. Aside from doing the implants, it meant that no one ever had to go to the dentist again. :lol:

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 04:13 PM

WELL, according to this study, 5 million people per year still died because they failed to adjust to changing temperature, hot and also cold. We now have the availability of technology to provide moderated temps through AC units to provide both cooling and heating and here in BC the government is distributing free units to those most affected to prevent a repeat of the 2021 1 week event. Our over 500 extra deaths that week over 2/3 of which were seniors over 70 could have easily been prevented if those people just had access to a cooler environment. In our case, our family came up here and stayed with us as their babies were in extreme heat stress taking advantage of our AC.
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/climate_change_heat_r...

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 04:33 PM

We can now add climate change to economics, and escaping corruption and crime, as reasons for migration.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 04:38 PM

Goat does have a very commonly held point of view. According to demographers, by 2080 we will pass the population growth peak and the already under replacement birth rates will overcome the increasing life expectancies and global population will be in decline, seniors will be a huge burden on the working class and resentment will grow. Japan, Greece and a few other countries have already seen these trends.

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 04:43 PM

JD,

Words from government to live by. “For as long as the sky is blue and the Buffalo roam! Used in connection with things promised by government.

BTW seen any Buffalo roaming lately?

Put differently does getting your medical care and pension from those who would be better off if you were dead bother you at all?

[Edited on 6-10-2024 by RFClark]

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 05:33 PM

RFClark: And so we look after ourselves, save, invest wisely and refuse to rely on promises that the government has our back. And yes Surabi, we can also move to countries where the surpluses of working people still exist and our retirements can be accomplished within our saved means. In Canada and Western Europe, we must rely on increasingly large numbers of immigrants, and we are seeing how that's being accepted globally in Europe right now. In BC in Canada right now, fully 1/3 of the population is hoping to migrate out of the province as they can no longer afford to live here due to rapidly increasing costs.

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2024 at 05:42 PM

A logical argument may be made that the climate would be better off if people only live as long as necessary to procreate and raise kids until they can live on their own.

Ahhhhh @Goat, you wanna take all the extra fun out of it? :lol:

Some people should be left behind!

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 05:52 PM

Yep, there are definitely people I would hate to have in the lifeboat with me.

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 06:15 PM

Yes, there are the carpers, the goats and the rowers! It’s worth remembering that after the Bounty Mutineers put Bligh and the non-Mutineers over the side. Bligh sailed them in an open boat over 4,000 miles to safety and the mutineers managed to burn and sink the Bounty!

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by RFClark]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 06:25 PM

I was thinking more of the self-concerned, who would push others out of the lifeboat so they didn't have to share the little bit of food and water that was left.
And those with zero sense of humor.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 06:32 PM

S,

Those people fly to their important meetings in biz jets and never get into lifeboats. Those you want to be in the boat with are those who don’t give up and can improvise! Capt Bligh as an example.

pacificobob - 6-10-2024 at 06:42 PM

Yep, there are definitely people I would hate to have in the lifeboat with me.

Yup, i thoroughly agree

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 06:49 PM

Airplanes sometimes fall out of the sky, or catch fire on the ground. There are those who would shove others out of the way to get to the emergency exits first and those who would try to help others get to safety.

The ability to improvize and not give up are important in an emergency situation, but so is cooperation and the ability to find some humor in devastating circumstances, which can help the people who are panicked to calm down and do what is necessary to try to survive.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 06:52 PM

Someone back a bit mentioned the natural cooling effect of underground structures. I shared a brief ferry ride with someone from Coober Pedy and he told me about their underground living in extreme heat conditions in Aussieland. Might be something to think about copying if temps continue rising globally as we adapt. Anyone have similar experiences to share?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBwXyF1UuI

Note even they are reliant on solar and wind power. 100 yr old adaptations can still use some new tech to improve lives now and then.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-10-2024 at 07:30 PM

Someone back a bit mentioned the natural cooling effect of underground structures...... Anyone have similar experiences to share?

Underground structures with below grade cooling tubes has been a technology that has been around for about 50 years. It works as advertised. Unfortunately, the concept was never widely adopted because the general public did not want to live undeground, feeling claustrophobic and no view to the outside, which are real concerns psychologically. The concept will never be adopted until the public has no other means for survival.

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 07:48 PM

Yes, I had a friend in central Texas who lived in a small cabin that was built mostly underground, which he uncreatively referred to as "The Underground".

It definitely stayed cooler in there in hot weather and also warmer in cold weather. True, there was no natural light, aside from when the door was left open (there was a small set of stairs from the ground level door into the cabin). It felt like being in a little hobbit house, quite cozy.

Personally I don't mind what other people might consider claustrophobic spaces. There are people who like to live where they have an expansive view, and those who are fine with darker, cozier spaces.

I have also noticed that each of those types tend to correspond to their personality type. Those who prefer an expansive view, who prefer to live on high ground with lots of windows that give them a view of the surrounding area, and distant landscapes tend to be "big picture people"- those with the kind of minds that lead them to be innovators, risk takers, business leaders, etc. Those who are fine with living in, say, a forest, where they might only be able to see a few yards in any direction tend to be detail people who focus on the things which surround them.

It's possible that when babies are born, some are like "Yay! I am so happy to be out of that cramped space", while others wish they could crawl back in that cozy little womb.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

mtgoat666 - 6-10-2024 at 08:10 PM

Someone back a bit mentioned the natural cooling effect of underground structures. I shared a brief ferry ride with someone from Coober Pedy and he told me about their underground living in extreme heat conditions in Aussieland. Might be something to think about copying if temps continue rising globally as we adapt. Anyone have similar experiences to share?

The only people i see living underground in my city are homeless living in culverts and underpasses, gophers and ground squirrels in my yard, and coyote dens in the sage brush areas.

Scientist tell me my ancestors lived in caves in europe. I did my family tree on ancestry and did not find record of such habitation back to 17th century.

:lol:

Solution to global warming is to live underground? GTFO! :lol:

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by mtgoat666]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 08:28 PM

You probably won't live to see that day, Goat, nor will I, but I think it's a distinct possibility. Survival instinct will certainly lead people to burrow underground if the surface of the planet is too hot. They aren't going to choose death by heat over not having windows to look out of.

Empire Mine State Park

AKgringo - 6-10-2024 at 08:38 PM

The Bourn family owned the Empire Mine in Grass Valley California in the late !800s. The "cottage" they stayed in was more of a mansion, and was built from stone that was from the miles of mine shafts directly under it.

They drew air directly from the shafts by natural convection, and the place seems air conditioned even in the heat of summer. It was built in 1897, and if you are ever in Grass Valley, it is a great place to visit for a tour.

No solar or wind power was used back then, but they did use steam!

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 08:42 PM

Coober Pedy at 47 degrees Celsius maximum temperature is well above our 38 degrees max here so I cant comment on whether it is livable or not. I am thinking tho if we apply some of their experience to ours we can easily adapt as temperatures rise, as supposedly their interior temp is held at right around 24 degrees year round. Oddly, their highest ever temperature was recorded in Dec 1990, whereas ours was reached in 2021, 31 years later. The highest recorded temp in Australia was a crazy 50.7 degrees at Oodnadatta on Jan 2 1960...ouch!

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-10-2024 at 09:22 PM

I read an article about 35 years ago about this guy and the underground house and gardens, that was his lifelong building project, that he started building in Fresno, Calif. back in the early 1900s. It's quite amazing and he dug through sedimentary rock and moved the rock and dirt by himself, with no machinery, to create this place.
He basically thought "It's too damn hot here" had a vision as to a solution, and set about doing it.

https://accenti.ca/baldassare-forestieres-underground-garden...

It is listed as a California Historical Landmark and in the National Register of Historic Places, and is now run by his descendants and is open for tours. I've always wanted to go there.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 09:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

...already under replacement birth rates will overcome the increasing life expectancies and global population will be in decline, seniors will be a huge burden on the working class and resentment will grow. Japan, Greece and a few other countries have already seen these trends.

Seen trends... of resentment? Or of declining population? :?:

Increasing resentment, but thats subject to personal evaluations of people i've spoken with. Those were tho the first two countries to be hit economically with the demographic consequences that we will al be faced with.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 09:50 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

In BC in Canada right now, fully 1/3 of the population is hoping to migrate out of the province as they can no longer afford to live here due to rapidly increasing costs.

That's a huge number of people! :wow:

You have an idea of where they'd like to end up?

Well, according to news reports, the favoured destination is the province east of us, where the cost of living vs household income is far better. If you own a home, you do have the option of signing over a portion of your equity each year and deferring your rapidly growing taxes at a moderate interest rate on the loan they assign you. This is becoming a more and more popular option for financially distressed seniors who want to stay in their homes. If you are in the renting and still working age group you are even more likely to be looking to relocate to Alberta (43%)

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by JDCanuck]

RFClark - 6-10-2024 at 09:55 PM

We stopped at Coober Pedy on the way back from Uluru the place is really different. They mine Opals around there. They do have underground shops. Think Mad Max!

That said the US Mid West has a history of houses dug into the side of south facing hills too.

JDCanuck - 6-10-2024 at 10:06 PM

We stopped at Coober Pedy on the way back from Uluru the place is really different. They mine Opals around there. They do have underground shops. Think Mad Max!

That said the US Mid West has a history of houses dug into the side of south facing hills too.

Come to think of it, my ancestors when they immigrated to Canada in the late 1800's built sod homes which had very low walls made of sod and low entrances then covered with poles with sod placed over them. The second or third year they replaced them with log cabins and the race to luxury was on!

oxxo - 6-11-2024 at 06:38 AM

I have both friends and family that live in Alberta District. They tell me (I have never visited there) that this area has been booming historically as a result of an economy based on oil drilling and fracking (they call their local hockey team the "Oilers" for good reason). As a result of the US becoming more oil independent, the rapid increase in fuel alternatives for vehicles worldwide, and the increasing brutality in winter weather in Alberta, the steam is running out of the oil industry in their area. As a result, the younger, working class is leaving the area to seek work in more progressive areas with higher wages and more job prospects (where that is, I don't know). So the cost of housing is plummeting in Alberta and the elderly from other parts of Canada are coming in to snap it up, thinking that weather in Alberta is going to be similar to BC...which it is not. Alberta will continue to exist in the future but not thrive like in the past. I kind of liken Alberta to some areas of Oklahoma and Texas that are dependent on the oil industry and their prospects for the future.

pacificobob - 6-11-2024 at 10:57 AM

I read an article about 35 years ago about this guy and the underground house and gardens, that was his lifelong building project, that he started building in Fresno, Calif. back in the early 1900s. It's quite amazing and he dug through sedimentary rock and moved the rock and dirt by himself, with no machinery, to create this place.
He basically thought "It's too damn hot here" had a vision as to a solution, and set about doing it.

https://accenti.ca/baldassare-forestieres-underground-garden...

It is listed as a California Historical Landmark and in the National Register of Historic Places, and is now run by his descendants and is open for tours. I've always wanted to go there.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by surabi]

Excellent article re: the underground gardens

JDCanuck - 6-11-2024 at 04:13 PM

Getting back to BEV's and solar in Baja tho, Baja obviously has a long way to go before it will be practical to drive a BEV down the peninsula as it would take 5 days from Mexicali to Cabo if you could do 300 miles between charges based on Mexicali to San Felipe, San Felipe to Guerrero Negro, Guerrero Negro to Loreto, Loreto to La Paz and then La Paz to Cabo. Seems a bit daunting to me.

[Edited on 6-11-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-11-2024 at 04:29 PM

Getting back to BEV's and solar in Baja tho, Baja obviously has a long way to go before it will be practical to drive a BEV down the peninsula as it would take 5 days from Mexicali to Cabo if you could do 300 miles between charges based on Mexicali to San Felipe, San Felipe to Guerrero Negro, Guerrero Negro to Loreto, Loreto to La Paz and then La Paz to Cabo. Seems a bit daunting to me.

I totally agree with you, the infrastructure for CONVENIENT long distance travel on the Baja Peninsula, is simply not in place yet. However, I think we will see about 3 to 4 more Tesla branded Superchargers along Hwy 1, in the next 3 to 5 years. And then a 2 day trip along the length of the peninsula, with 1 overnight in either Catavina or GN, will be an easy trip.

It has been years since I have driven on the road from Mexicali/San Felipe/ Hwy 1. Then it was just roughly graded with lots of ruts and not pleasant at all, more suitable for a 4x4. Is that road paved now?

JDCanuck - 6-11-2024 at 04:56 PM

Not sure if this link is allowed on here, but here is an optimistic view from another site of driving an EV down the Baja at present with a list of Tesla destination level 2 chargers he located. I have yet to find a link to someone who actually did it.
https://talkbaja.com/driving-down-baja-in-a-tesla-ev/

I suppose if you really got stuck, you could search for someone with a 240v 50 amp welder outlet that would be willing to help you out for a fee and carry the various adapters you would need for the different outlets. Here is the one we are having installed for our home charging use that connects to our Leaf's 28 amp charging cord, but will handle up to 40 amps continuous:
https://ohmelectricalcontracting.com/nema-14-50-outlet/

One warning: My Electrician daughter tells me if you install this outlet you should size the breaker at the panel to protect your rated draw or risk your breaker not tripping on a fault. In my case, that would mean a 40 amp breaker, but could be boosted to 50 amp if your charging cable draws more, up to 80% of the breaker size as per Canadian codes.

[Edited on 6-12-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-11-2024 at 06:50 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by daunting.

I have driven down Baja a couple of times, driving alone. 4-5 days is how long it took me, as I don't like long driving days. I can't understand what is "daunting" about it.

I can certainly understand if you are in rush for some reason that it wouldn't be convenient to stop and spend the night somewhere for 4 nights, rather than driving it in 2 days, with a one night stop.
But most Americans and Canadians who travel in Baja or anywhere in Mexico don't seem like they have much reason to be in a rush.

mtgoat666 - 6-11-2024 at 07:08 PM

People on vacation got to maximize time off before returning to work. Road trips often require 500 to 600 mile travel days. Not everyone is unemployed or retired and able to twaddle for 3 days to get from socal to the 28th parallel.

surabi - 6-11-2024 at 07:49 PM

Not sure how anyone who is on vacation "needs" to drive 500-600 miles a day to "maximize" their vacation time. Is driving long hours for 2 days so you can sit on a beach in Cabo somehow a better vacation than having shorter, relaxing driving days and sitting on other beaches along the way?

Usually people choose to drive rather than fly because they want to be able to stop along the way and see other places, camp, whatever. If someone wants to maximize their vacation time in only a specific location that requires 2 days driving time, seems like they'd be smarter to just fly there.

[Edited on 6-12-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-12-2024 by surabi]

JDCanuck - 6-11-2024 at 07:58 PM