ECR - Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

https://filebin.net/8syujfajfh9vxcxi This link is to an eight page topo map PDF of the El Camino Real section Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio. The trail is marked as a green line. This link remains active for the next six days. If anyone downloads the PDF for a look, and then has any suggestions or corrections as to my trail positioning, please pass them along on this thread. Thanks. A list of water sources on this route would be much appreciated. [Edited on 10-8-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

get me your email and I'll send you the reliable water sources

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

Santa Gertrudis is off the beaten path, not sure what kind of transportation there is to get there.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Very nice job with the trail on the maps!

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

In the book, The Mission Walker, Edie talks about being required to have a guide through sections of that walk due to Cave Paintings. You will need to look into that. in Crosby's book it seemed pretty straight forward as far as the ECR goes.

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Quote: Originally posted by David K   Very nice job with the trail on the maps! Good to know, David. I am not a 'purist' in regards to needing to be exactly on the actual old ECR. I would like to be close, and I would certainly like to see parts of the old trail, like cuestas, which would be thrilling. But, if the actual ECR was overgrown, spiny, and difficult at a certain point, and I could move 100 yards and have a much easier and faster time, I wouldn't hesitate to do it.

Very nice!

Here is part of one, north of Santa Martha, northeast of San Ignacio:





[Edited on 10-18-2024 by David K]

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

4x4abc has tons of waypoints, so you should get some good info there.

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Thanks PaulW. I just downloaded the Garmin 22X Owner's Manual, and I will be reading through it as I familiarize myself with the device. The critical thing for me, was to be able to take a GPS reading of locations along the way, and this seems easy enough to do. I was pleasantly surprised to see that each GPS location reading, or waypoint, that my device takes, also has an elevation in feet. I wasn't expecting that, as I was told that this model has no altimeter. Maybe the device calculates elevation in a different manner? In any even, the elevations it has given thus far have been accurate.

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Cupcake Using a Garmin etrex 22x: you can import a GPX file to a Garmin eTrex 22x by transferring the file to the device's GPX folder How to get a gpx file 1) Have some one send you the file 2) Make your own file a) Go to Google Earth and use “add a path” and make the track b) The save the file as a kml file c) Go to the web and convert it to a gpx file d) follow instructions on the first line above. Many trails and roads are clearly visible on Google Earth for you to make a path from. Once you make the path it will contain all the track points on your gps you want.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Thanks PaulW. I just downloaded the Garmin 22X Owner's Manual, and I will be reading through it as I familiarize myself with the device. The critical thing for me, was to be able to take a GPS reading of locations along the way, and this seems easy enough to do. I was pleasantly surprised to see that each GPS location reading, or waypoint, that my device takes, also has an elevation in feet. I wasn't expecting that, as I was told that this model has no altimeter. Maybe the device calculates elevation in a different manner? In any even, the elevations it has given thus far have been accurate. Yes, it uses the distance to the satellites and the distance from them to sea level to calculate your elevation. It is pretty accurate and no need for barametic pressure adjustment.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW   Cupcake Using a Garmin etrex 22x: you can import a GPX file to a Garmin eTrex 22x by transferring the file to the device's GPX folder How to get a gpx file 1) Have some one send you the file 2) Make your own file a) Go to Google Earth and use “add a path” and make the track b) The save the file as a kml file c) Go to the web and convert it to a gpx file d) follow instructions on the first line above. Many trails and roads are clearly visible on Google Earth for you to make a path from. Once you make the path it will contain all the track points on your gps you want. I'll be happy to provide the entire track plus whatever waypoints you like I hate Garmin products, but now you are stuck with it I would highly recommend to spend as much time as possible on Google Earth (desktop version) and follow the trail. There are long sections where the trail has been washed away. Since those sections often are not used by locals or animals - there is no path to follow. It will be bushwhacking until you pick up the established trail again. I would highly recommend to mark those points where the trail disappears and comes back up again. Otherwise you might be bushwhacking parallel to the trail unnecessarily. I'll be happy to mark those in/out points for you. Then you transfer them into your GPS. They won't do you any good on the paper map. I have done this section with locals guides. It is fun and relatively easy. But you could also get lost at a heartbeat. if you do the trail alone - get an inReach device. The cheapest one will do. [Edited on 10-20-2024 by 4x4abc]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I have owned two Garmin eTrex models and recorded many waypoints when I was traveling in the early 2000s. They are all on this webpage at VivaBaja.com and now I have included the GPX file (and a KMZ link) should you wish to download them: https://vivabaja.com/gps/

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Kevin, help me understand your waypoints almost all are way off the trail

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Oh, I get it! "So much Baja... so little time!"

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   Kevin, help me understand your waypoints almost all are way off the trail Harald, You cared enough to check, thank you. I just spot checked a few of my map waypoints and found they are as I intended. I used the Caltopo website: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=28.03475,-113.11094&z=14... I was not too concerned about having my waypoints right on the ECR, and being off by 500 feet or so was ok with me; just being near enough to use for navigation was what I wanted. When you say they are "way off" what kind of distances are you meaning? My approach to this, because of the nature of my experience, is that my reading of the topo map and the actual terrain when I am on the ground, is the most important, then compass direction, then GPS coordinates. So, for instance, if I think I see where I am on the map (the surrounding ground features match my map), and direction of travel looks right (compass), and then the given GPS waypoint on my map is within 500 feet of what my GPS device reads on the ground, then I am satisfied that this is my location, or nearly so. I would make any corrections to my GPS map waypoints in the field, as I move. Now, if you were to tell me that my waypoints are off by a mile, then that would alarm me. I have no history of using GPS for navigation, so perhaps I will become more concerned with pinpoint GPS accuracy as I work with the technology.

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Some GPS info Now days Garmin is using a modern GPS module with 12 channels This is good because you will have the accuracy that will accurately translate to topo maps. The Etrex does not create tracks with track points but will create all the waypoints you want and you travel along. Since you want to travel the ECR you must have a GPX track loaded into your Trex. The reason for this is if all you have are waypoints loaded then you will surely get immediately get lost. Even with a loaded GPX track if the creator of the track did no use accurate track points. it will still be an issue. When I get a track from someone I always view it on an internet viewer to see how far the track points are for each other. Example a track created by an Inreach can be as accurate a a 5 second track point interval. My Lowrance can also be that accurate. It even has the option of distance between track points which is what I use and the result is a much bigger file. One other note about GPS elevation. Accuracy is highly dependent on how many satellites are viewed by the GPS. Thus in a canyon with steep walls (like Diablo ) the accuracy is very bad. And even the coordinates are inaccurate and will not match the topo map.

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

for safest travel, you want to be ON the trail! any bushwhacking will add exhausting hours to your travel read fatboy's struggle to find his way!

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   Kevin, help me understand your waypoints almost all are way off the trail Harald, You cared enough to check, thank you. I just spot checked a few of my map waypoints and found they are as I intended. I used the Caltopo website: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=28.03475,-113.11094&z=14... I was not too concerned about having my waypoints right on the ECR, and being off by 500 feet or so was ok with me; just being near enough to use for navigation was what I wanted. When you say they are "way off" what kind of distances are you meaning? My approach to this, because of the nature of my experience, is that my reading of the topo map and the actual terrain when I am on the ground, is the most important, then compass direction, then GPS coordinates. So, for instance, if I think I see where I am on the map (the surrounding ground features match my map), and direction of travel looks right (compass), and then the given GPS waypoint on my map is within 500 feet of what my GPS device reads on the ground, then I am satisfied that this is my location, or nearly so. I would make any corrections to my GPS map waypoints in the field, as I move. Now, if you were to tell me that my waypoints are off by a mile, then that would alarm me. I have no history of using GPS for navigation, so perhaps I will become more concerned with pinpoint GPS accuracy as I work with the technology. only one of the waypoints was on the trail. You WILL get lost if the waypoints are not on the trail even though this is an easy section of the trail - it is not that easy 28.04123, -113.10245 260ft off 28.00683, -113.13309 380ft off 27.97242, -113.13892 350ft off 27.93876, -113.12124 340ft off 27.91161, -113.12450 on trail 27.89507, -113.04159 488ft off 27.83437, -113.02683 on trail 27.82875, -113.00486 225ft off 27.81281, -112.97238 640ft off 27.80947, -112.96108 100ft off starting at 27.745832°, -112.902059° you'll be on a real, recent road until Santa Marta - so no danger there. [Edited on 10-20-2024 by 4x4abc]

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Are there not points where possibly the exact trail is overgrown with thorny plants, and by moving off the trail you might have an easier go of it? I imagine a possible scenario where a hiker might wander back and forth across an old and not much used trail, picking the easiest way, but not losing 'contact' with the original route.

ideally you can follow animal tracks on and of the trail for easiest travel
but there are many stretches where animal have no interest in going where you want to go - they might lead you way off.

below is a good example - the well established trail (about 11 ft) has been washed away and all you have is the animal track of about 2.5 ft

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Are there not points where possibly the exact trail is overgrown with thorny plants, and by moving off the trail you might have an easier go of it? I imagine a possible scenario where a hiker might wander back and forth across an old and not much used trail, picking the easiest way, but not losing 'contact' with the original route. ideally you can follow animal tracks on and of the trail for easiest travel but there are many stretches where animal have no interest in going where you want to go - they might lead you way off. below is a good example - the well established trail (about 11 ft) has been washed away and all you have is the animal track of about 2.5 ft

So much fun living vicariously with your hike!
Thank you.
OK, so now some ECR chat:

I presume you read Harry Crosby's details on the ECR... Road Building in Antigua California: https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1977/january/bajaroad/

and Mapping ECR: https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1977/january/bajamapping...

That all was over 50 years ago when researched and later written. Modern ECR mapping hikers (who endevour to locate true Jesuit routes vs more modern ranch and cattle trails) are Kevin and Genevieve of www.CaminoRealBaja.com
Kevin is very easy to communicate with and open-minded to new discoveries. They began this project over 20 years ago, hiking and mapping sections during their holidays.

One note from their site:
Many waypoints have a lowercase letter next to the section letter (i.e., Fd58*). The second letter indicates that this is actually a trail option that is true ECR. There are many of these, and it is good to remember that El Camino Real is really a web of trails that usually converge at the various missions.

Personal note:
Sadly, I have only hiked a few small sections of the trail... But, between those in-field experinces and reading so much about it, the trail takes the most logical and easiest route. Obviously, it went to water souces between the missions, as well. The Natives (no doubt) guided the padres and may have had trails already. However, the Jesuit mission trail (as far as Santa María) was constructed as straight as possible to shorten travel times and switchbacks were built when the terrain was steep, with straight runs as much as the land would allow.

So, as you run out of visible trail (due to brush growth or flash flood/ erosion) try to just take the most logical route the terrain allows, going the direction intended. The trail will magically reappear and you will wonder why the missing sections did not show. Well, it has been 300 years or more for the part south of San Ignacio and well over 200 years for the rest!

Because the Jesuits were removed just a few years after the founding of San Borja, most of the typical Jesuit road/trail ends there and beyond was not much more than what loks like a cattle trail today. There are some exceptions, but the Franciscans and Dominicans were not the engineers that the Jesuits were.

When hiking the trail west of Gonzaga Bay, if we lost signs of it, by looking uphill and westbound, we found it again a short distance away.

Now, thanks to the Benchmark Maps digital download, which shows Kevin & Genevieve's track of ECR (Loreto to El Rosario), you can see your position relative to their track. Now, the scale is not so grand that you can always be precise with their track, at least you will soon see if you are headed the wrong way. The digital map loads onto a smart phone or tablet, using GPS and not cell towers to locate you anywhere in Baja... and is under $20. The Avenza Map App you use for it is free: https://store.avenza.com/products/baja-california-atlas-land...

Here is a screenshot of the Benchmark map, on my phone, with the ECR Trail. The bullseye is over the auto road to Mission Santa María. You can save your tracks, as you see the ones I made here, on the two routes (going and coming) to compare.


You can't beat this kind of assistance for the price and simplicity.
GOOD LUCK!

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

Just got home, and I am downloading your file now. 4x4abc has tons of waypoints, so you should get some good info there. And of course Kevin and Genevieve have many waypoints for the trail itself.

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Harald, I can see the logic in having the waypoints exactly on the trail, so I am changing my waypoints. It is not difficult or time consuming, but I am limited in the number of free edits I get with the online PDF editors. When I finish, I will send you the PDF sheets and post them here. I will likely eventually add compass directions as well, but I might do this by hand on the printed maps. [Edited on 10-21-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use.

Here is from today's download, of the south end, from San Ignacio north, first map:

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use.

this section does not exist in reality
it shows on the topo maps
but the trails in the area are completely different than on INEGI




here is real life on Google Earth
there is no connection from 27.84454, -113.04296 eastwards to 27.83338, -113.02520

there is the option to follow the Boleo track (grey) east from 27.854486°, -113.041627° - it turns south after 3/4 mile
the southern leg of this track is very difficult to navigate!

alternatively you go south on the newly built highway (white) from that point on




the area in question is found on maps as Buenos Aires - a former Boleo cattle ranch

Kevin and Genevieve have a few spots marked in that area




[Edited on 10-22-2024 by 4x4abc]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use. none of your route is ECR they are various roads built by the French mining company Boleo around 1910 that's why they are so straight mining engineers can only think in straight lines the Boleo roads are in various stages of decay, because they are rarely used by locals it is very difficult to find true ECR trail sections in areas where Boleo has been active the original concession Boleo had around Santa Rosalia was 220 sq miles (mining) it was later expanded to 2317sq miles mainly to produce food for the population of Santa Rosalia that was an area as far north as San Borja and as far south as San Jose de Gracia the main hub for the Boleo roads was San Ignacio during that time Santa Rosalia was the largest urban center in all of Baja (Settlements in Baja California: 1768-1930 George F. Deasy and Peter Gerhard) like many large companies during that time, Boleo did not want to leave food supply to local sources - they wanted to be the producer and seller - workers were forced to only buy in Boleo stores parts of this old road are wonderfully easy to travel on (like between Santa Gertrudis and Rancho Las Parras/Las Juntas)- much of it in other areas is in such bad shape that only a local guide (if he even knows what you are talking about) can guide you safely from end to end large sections are even hard to spot on satellite images - only the fact that they are often dead straight helps you spot something that looks like a road miles ahead hikers with a solid Baja background like Genevieve and Kevin have no trouble following the routes independently.

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

This reminds me of some trekking I did in India in 2012 and 2013. Hiking on ancient trails, through ancient villages, while road construction was underway from both ends. I imagine the villages I hiked through, i.e. Lahaul to Zanskar over the Shingo La, have been markedly changed today. I would like to find some of that 'roadless village magic' in Baja, if it still exists (as long as I don't get attacked by village dogs). [Edited on 10-22-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

By the way, somewhere I have read that the Jesuits had a fondness for straight roads, when the terrain would allow for them. Maybe this is something they had in common with the Boleo engineers? [Edited on 10-22-2024 by cupcake]

The Jesuits created trails that were as direct as possible from point A to point B. If needed, they would go over a mountain rather than around it.
as straight as possible meant if there was a Cardon or a boulder in their path, they would go around it. The original ECR has a very organic feel. It follows the terrain in a beautiful fashion.
The Boleo tracks, however, go dead straight as much as possible. Created with bulldozers, large vegetation and boulder were just pushed out of the way. On occasion dynamite was used to blast obstacles out of the way. I have pictures, I can prove it.

also consider this, in areas of Baja where Boleo was not active, ECR is 3 to 4 feet wide. Where Boleo was active, often bulldozing over ECR, the road they created is between 10 and 30 ft wide. What business were the Jesuits conducting that they needed a dead straight 30 ft wide road? 30ft is the width of a good airstrip.

satellite images are so accurate by now, they even show the berms of debris left and right of the road left behind by the dozers.

the "ECR" in the image below is 20ft wide, dead straight and has well defined berms

but don't get distracted by this discussion of ECR or not - stick to your plan and follow the route you had envisioned.
I have done it before and it is a serious adventure
because most only talk about
very few actually get their feet on the ground

want a closer view?

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

The original ECR has a very organic feel. It follows the terrain in a beautiful fashion'

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   The original ECR has a very organic feel. It follows the terrain in a beautiful fashion' Like a cobblestone lane versus asphalt, an uneven but pleasing brick-paved patio versus concrete. I know what you mean. I am ok with my trek being mostly off-ECR, but I would really like to see some of the original old trail; seeing an original cuesta would be wonderful.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

One thing I find amuzing is when there is histaria when motorcycles ride on the old trail but nothing is said when a highway obliterates the old trail! Carry on, carry on!

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   The original ECR has a very organic feel. It follows the terrain in a beautiful fashion' Like a cobblestone lane versus asphalt, an uneven but pleasing brick-paved patio versus concrete. I know what you mean. I am ok with my trek being mostly off-ECR, but I would really like to see some of the original old trail; seeing an original cuesta would be wonderful. Harald is correct about the Jesuit road width of around 1-1.5 meters wide... Read Harry Crosby's details on Jesit road building in the links I posted for his contributions. Harry studied the Spanish-Jesuit archives to be as precise as possible with his history writing. When you mention my comments on your placement of the ECR pins, it is not so much from my personal searching (on Google Earth or on the ground) but from how well your points line up with Kevin's CaminoRealBaja.com points, I think. I just like to complement my Internet friends when they do hisorical research! The Boleo roads, made with early 1900s French bull dozrs will be as wide as the blade on one of those, or more. I am sure, there are places where then went over the top of Jesuit trails.. just as Hwy. 1 and 5 do in some places. One thing I find amuzing is when there is histaria when motorcycles ride on the old trail but nothing is said when a highway obliterates the old trail! Carry on, carry on!

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   The original ECR has a very organic feel. It follows the terrain in a beautiful fashion' Like a cobblestone lane versus asphalt, an uneven but pleasing brick-paved patio versus concrete. I know what you mean. I am ok with my trek being mostly off-ECR, but I would really like to see some of the original old trail; seeing an original cuesta would be wonderful. Harald is correct about the Jesuit road width of around 1-1.5 meters wide... Read Harry Crosby's details on Jesit road building in the links I posted for his contributions. Harry studied the Spanish-Jesuit archives to be as precise as possible with his history writing. When you mention my comments on your placement of the ECR pins, it is not so much from my personal searching (on Google Earth or on the ground) but from how well your points line up with Kevin's CaminoRealBaja.com points, I think. I just like to complement my Internet friends when they do hisorical research! The Boleo roads, made with early 1900s French bull dozrs will be as wide as the blade on one of those, or more. I am sure, there are places where then went over the top of Jesuit trails.. just as Hwy. 1 and 5 do in some places. One thing I find amuzing is when there is histaria when motorcycles ride on the old trail but nothing is said when a highway obliterates the old trail! Carry on, carry on!

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Trails of tears! The spanish enslaved the indigenous peoples to build their trails and roads. The spanish diseases wiped out the rest. The entire culture was destroyed in the name of conversion to christ. I think jesus rolled over in his grave when he saw what the spaniards did in his name! I suppose MC riders on trails have better intentions than the original trail building bosses who were intent on wiping out a culture and religion, eh? [Edited on 10-23-2024 by mtgoat666]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use. none of your route is ECR they are various roads built by the French mining company Boleo around 1910

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use. none of your route is ECR they are various roads built by the French mining company Boleo around 1910 I finally got around to looking at Kevin and Genevieve's website waypoints. From their website: "Many waypoints have a lowercase letter next to the section letter (i.e., Fd58*). The second letter indicates that this is actually a trail option that is true ECR." These three waypoints: Fd67, Fd66, Fd65 are denoted as being true ECR and they are all exactly on the route I have marked on my PDF. Then comes Fd64, and here there is a difference, as my route starts taking a more direct path to Las Juntas. I plan on spending some time with Kevin and Genevieve's waypoints to see how the true ECR compares with the route I have marked on my PDF. Of most importance to me, is that K & G's true ECR waypoints with an * (asterisk) are points where the old trail can be seen on the ground or from space. I definitely want to note these on my map, as I would like to see and stand on this 'sacred ground'. [Edited on 10-23-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

the Pacific route is almost 100% El Boleo [Edited on 10-24-2024 by 4x4abc]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc   Quote: Originally posted by cupcake   https://filebin.net/fn8b7iovjbgh4hjy The above link is to the the PDF of my Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio route, with GPS waypoints moved onto the trail. This link remains active for six days only. I have been advised that some of this route is not the original ECR. Harald has sent files to me that contain route variations, which I plan on incorporating into my map when I can. I imagine if I took a guide / vaquero on this trek, they also might have their own trail variations that they like to use. none of your route is ECR they are various roads built by the French mining company Boleo around 1910 I finally got around to looking at Kevin and Genevieve's website waypoints. From their website: "Many waypoints have a lowercase letter next to the section letter (i.e., Fd58*). The second letter indicates that this is actually a trail option that is true ECR." These three waypoints: Fd67, Fd66, Fd65 are denoted as being true ECR and they are all exactly on the route I have marked on my PDF. Then comes Fd64, and here there is a difference, as my route starts taking a more direct path to Las Juntas. I plan on spending some time with Kevin and Genevieve's waypoints to see how the true ECR compares with the route I have marked on my PDF. Of most importance to me, is that K & G's true ECR waypoints with an * (asterisk) are points where the old trail can be seen on the ground or from space. I definitely want to note these on my map, as I would like to see and stand on this 'sacred ground'. [Edited on 10-23-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Sorry, but I disagree with Harald about the Pacifico ECR. The Visita de San Pablo is on it. West of San Pablo is a Boleo road, going straight to Prosperidad, a casona (Boleo ranch house) built around 1914.

as I wrote before, the El Boleo roads are often following where the ECR used to be
sometimes possibly in the vicinity of ECR
sometimes possibly right on top of it

the way the El Boleo road is built indicates that they were pretty much right on top of ECR as there are many visible sections where ECR continues where the dozer had stopped
below is one of the many examples I have collected
the narrow dozer track ends and and animal trail (or ECR) continues

here is another good example - the 13ft wide Boleo track ends and a narrow section of ECR continues
Fa5* on Genevieve and Kevin's list

Those are excellent examples!

Correct about ECR never being 13 ft. wide.
I was just commenting on you saying the Pacifico Camino Real (the Jesuit road on the west slope of the Sierra San Francisco) was Boleo made.

I see an edit to that, but still not looking 100% right to me: "the Pacific route is almost 100% El Boleo"

There were two primary 'Pacifico' Camino Reals as much as there were two 'Golfo' Camino Reals... Plus, the Sierra Camino Real... between San Ignacio and Santa Gertrudis then Santa Gertrudis to San Borja... all three roads were built in the 1750s and 1760s.

We pretty much have the three routes to Santa Gertrudis nailed down, but only the Sierra and Golf routes to San Borja identified.

The Pacifico route to San Borja passed through Visita de San Regis and probably Visita de San Ignacio (today's Rancho San Ignacito, and or Visita de Santa Ana, west of San Borja). Maybe Harald has spotted the Pacifico route in this section?

Recent photo of Visita San Regis (2023):


1953 photo (by Howard Gulick):

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

I guess it is not surprising after all, that aficionados might disagree on what is old ECR and what is not. I have a question regarding GPS coordinates. Kevin & Genevieve's ECR waypoint coordinates are in Degrees, Minutes, Seconds. I convert these to Decimal Degrees, because this is the format that Caltopo uses. Caltopo gives coordinates that have 5 digits after the decimals. Kevin & Genevieve's coordinates, when converted to DD, have 6 digits after the decimals. I have seen other DD conversions that have 7 digits after the decimals. This appears to me to be a matter of location accuracy (more digits after the decimal being more accurate). My question: when I delete the last digit of Kevin & Genevieve's DD coordinates, so that it fits more seamlessly into the Caltopo 5 digit format, what am I losing in accuracy? One foot? Ten Feet? My Garmin ETREX 22X has 5 digits after the decimals. Edit: I think this answers my question: Accuracy of Decimal Places in Latitude and Longitude Degrees https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=hRMBoCTy5a7HqVkxukhHd8 Five digits is about three feet less accurate than six digits. [Edited on 10-24-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

My Garmin ETREX 22X has 5 digits after the decimals. Edit: I think this answers my question: Accuracy of Decimal Places in Latitude and Longitude Degrees https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=hRMBoCTy5a7HqVkxukhHd8 Five digits is about three feet less accurate than six digits. [Edited on 10-24-2024 by cupcake]

on the subject of Jesuits built straight trails
their trails weave harmonically through the landscape in the most direct line possible - but they meander around vegetation and boulders
I call that Jesuit straight
El Boleo straight is a bulldozed dead straight trail for miles and miles
almost everything in its way had to go

below is an image of Sierra San Francisco between San Ignacio and Santa Gertrudis (the white balloon)
the fat white lines are the general direction of main ECR
El Boleo roads are in grey
yellow lines are 4x4 trails
green lines are ECR network and animal trails

too bad we can't have decent image quality in this group

looking at Genevieve and Kevin's placemarks - they have mostly chosen different routes as ECR

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

Gotta say Harald that is some pretty damn impressive mapping!

thank you!

As they promote on youtube - I started thinking for myself
not just repeat what others have though, said, published
been working on it for 10 years - almost every day

here is one thing that was needed to get a better handle on ECR or Boleo
trail widths
with the new sets of sat images it got pretty darn accurate
below the area north of San Ignacio
of course I have that for all of Baja
every trail or road ever used/built
I assigned markers in a size that corresponds to the trail/road width
still working on the coloration
white for ECR, grey for Boleo

if someone claims ECR for certain stretches of a trail, I'll just open the database and check the width
6 meters wide is not ECR

here is the area south of Ligüi
the El Boleo concession did not reach that far
ECR is between 0.80m to 1.50m

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Very impressive indeed, Harald. I see you have El Pacifico ECR between Santa Gertrudis and San Ignacio well to the west of Kevin and Genevieve's route. On the strength of your achievement and knowledge, I will take your private suggestion and change my plans to the ECR in the Mision Santa Maria area. I might still try a trip from Santa Gertrudis to San Ignacio, especially now that I have some decent maps and waypoints for that, but first has to be Santa Maria. With what you told me about the ECR and scenery in the Santa Maria area, it seems like the number one option. [Edited on 10-25-2024 by cupcake]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Keep in mind, Boleo may have bulldozed over the top of the Jesuit road. You even said such was the case. Southeast from San Ignacio, an auto road was created on top of the Camino Real for a few miles. Past a ranch the trail continues the same direction, but a single line vs a pair of lines. I don't know the width but maybe Boleo scraped it. Thanks for your mapping work, Harald!

well, I think it is possible that Boleo dozed a straight trail over a meandering ECR. That would mean a number of crossing over points.
However, there is no visual evidence of that.
at least I have not found any yet.
You see, what keeps ECR visible on sat images is that animals and locals keep using it. A form of trail maintenance by pounding feet.
But once a Boleo track was established, animals and locals used that new easier route. The original ECR is no longer used. It grows over. Disappears.
In our case that would be non use of more than a 100 years. Even in Baja that is enough to make things disappear.
Unfortunately the Jesuits did not draw an accurate map of exactly where ECR is. No documents to double check.
Yes, there are occasional signs on the ground that will not show on sat images - those could indicate the presence of ECR.
Could.
Genevieve and Kevin are doing a great job finding those hints.
Like everything else in science, that alone is not proof yet of the presence of ECR.
We need more than hints.
The least reliable source are locals. They are eager to show you what you want to see. Tell you what you want to hear. None of them have lived during or shortly after mission times.
And it goes both ways - many times when I asked for directions at a ranch the answer was: "there is no trail!" Only I had been on that trail just a year before. And I found it again without their help. In all fairness, they could have given me the wrong answer intentionally - to keep the stupid Gringos out of their backyard.

below a beautifully authentic section of Camino Real




[Edited on 10-25-2024 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 10-25-2024 by 4x4abc]

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail?

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric   Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail? They would not. The pic has fence in background. Looks like a ranch corral. Rock walls are probably a ranchers construction.

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail? So, to state the obvious, when they could the Jesuits probably followed existing trails that were used by Indians and animals. Then they improved these trails, I suppose to make transit easier, in the same way that the forest service improves hiking trails: putting in switchbacks, moving loose rocks out of the middle of the trail, etc. I think there were parts of the ECR that were built as completely new trails that did not follow existing animal or Indian trails. The missionaries were only on foot or burro, versus using wheeled vehicles, like the Romans. Some of the old Roman roads can still be seen after 2,000 years. The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an arroyo or on slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods. Gabb noted that in 1867 there was no trace of the ECR left where it went up the arroyo on its approach to San Sebastian. (This is the route recently described by fatboy). Within a few decades after the decline of the missions the trail had been washed away.

animal and early human trails had one thing in common - they lead to food and water.
Jesuits needed the same - but some of the supplies came by ship. So they needed a trail to a good port site. No animal or indigenes trails going there.
Jesuits needed to travel to the other mission sites. No animal or indigenes trails going there.
In areas with ample food and water the Jesuits could use that trail network to create a trail of their own need.
But there are many areas in Baja where it is pretty dead - Jesuits had to had to build from scratch.

Jesuits were highly educated (intellectual) adventurers. They had learned everything one needs to know about the rules of Nature before they left Europe. They would NOT establish trails in or near arroyos. All Jesuit trails are somewhere safe on high grounds. There is an exception that I could explain later.

I noticed your mention of switchbacks. If you see switchbacks on a trail it is a sure sign that the trail was NOT built by the Jesuits. For foot travel and burro needs switchbacks are overkill and a way of wasting resources.
However, if you run a bulldozer - you'll build switchbacks. Motorized vehicles need them.
Because vehicles can not climb at the same rate humans and animals can.
Show me any long line switchback before 1880 an I'll buy you a beer. Heck - I'll buy you a case of beer.

too keep your spirits up with something beautiful
here is a hybrid of El Boleo and ECR close to San Ignacio

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

Today, the Mex government builds roads around Ranchos (like a ring road around towns) - because the ranchers are not happy to see Gringos blasting through their place. Killing chicken, annoying the dogs and dusting the entire house. But SXS are soooo much fun! Right! Me, me, me - my fun. Get out of my way. Very American. Sorry for the rant![Edited on 10-26-2024 by 4x4abc]

I thought the gringo offroaders are beloved because they give stickers and candy to the kids?

here is a genuine Jesuit built Cuesta - Cuesta San Felipe
yes, there are kinda switchbacks - but not the long sweeps a dozer would create
as I mentioned before, the Jesuit trails are organic
they follow what the terrain offers
they do not create anything artificial
Cuesta trails are rarely wider than 0.80 meters - 2.6 ft

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc

too keep your spirits up with something beautiful here is a hybrid of El Boleo and ECR close to San Ignacio

This photo is taken a couple miles west of Mission Santa Gertrudis, westbound. You can see the ECR climbing out of the arroyo valley from the graded road. That was the cental or 'Sierra' Jesuit road to Mission San Borja. The 'Golfo' route branches off of it, several miles north of here. The 'Pacifico' route is more of a mystery... I am guessing is is even shorter than the Golfo route, hitting San Regis, San Miguel, Santa Ana... maybe San Ignacito (although that seems off too much to the northwest?). Harald, any guesses?





[Edited on 10-26-2024 by David K]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Cuestas (switchback grades) on El Camino Real was a subject I wrote a short article about a few years ago. It is possible at least one was a Boleo road... but as Baja Bucko can confirm (as she rides mules on them), most if not all are not widened by bulldozer: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_...

here is the thing about Cuestas
they are easy to spot on sat images
you can measure the trail width
with your feet on the ground you'll have a completely different impression
they all have an effing narrow path

fact is that Jesuits as well as El Boleo created a much narrower path for a Cuesta than for their overland routes
the trail/road on top of Cuesta del Gentil measures 5.40 meters
on the switchbacks it is only 2.00 meters
with your feet on the ground it feels like 0.60m (2 feet)

the reason for creating a much more narrow path on the climb is erosion
much of the volcanic rock in Baja has a very soft base
it washes away in no time during rain
give it a couple of hurricanes and the trail turns into a narrow gorge
just think of recent images in the US after the hurricane
if both El Boleo and the Jesuits would have built a wider path on their Cuestas it may have been the initation to have the whole hillside slide down

the El Boleo tracks are only 100+ years old - but that is enough time for rain water to make their Cuestas look like a Jesuit Cuesta.
Deep cuts and the rocks left and right sitting 10 feet higher
so, without sat images and only your feet on the ground plus what your eyes see, the El Boleo tracks are easily mistaken for ECR
like with many other areas of science - once the imaging quality increases (just think of space telescopes) our understanding of things changes

below are images of an El Boleo track in the SE corner of San Ignacio
pretty much all the way to Rancho Santa Brigida it measures 3.20 meters (about 10 feet) and is in good shape
an easy hike
viewed from space the width is the same when the Cuestecita drops into San Ignacio
on the ground it looks violently different
it feels like you are scrambling down a narrow creek bed



it starts out nice and easy


but on the Cuestecita into San Ignacio the bottom of the track has been washed out


closer to town the hike becomes challenging
nothing reminds you that this was a 10 ft wide road


the transition from a nice flat road to a narrow foot path caused by erosion

Quote: Originally posted by David K

This photo is taken a couple miles west of Mission Santa Gertrudis, westbound. You can see the ECR climbing out of the arroyo valley from the graded road. That was the cental or 'Sierra' Jesuit road to Mission San Borja. The 'Golfo' route branches off of it, several miles north of here. The 'Pacifico' route is more of a mystery... I am guessing is is even shorter than the Golfo route, hitting San Regis, San Miguel, Santa Ana... maybe San Ignacito (although that seems off too much to the northwest?). Harald, any guesses? [Edited on 10-26-2024 by David K]

Central and Golfo split right on top of that hill in your picture
from there
Golfo is a Boleo track for the first 6 miles until Rancho Piñami
Central is Boleo track for 15 miles until Rancho La Union

a little earlier I had mentioned that in general Camino Real would never run in an Arroyo bed - it would always be on safer, higher ground.
Part of that is seasonal flooding which would make travel impossible
but also the fact that most dry waterways are full of boulders and debris
fatboy can certainly confirm that it is hell to follow Arroyo beds.

the exception I noted is around Loreto
pretty much all river beds are covered with small gravel
they provide a nice flat and stable ground for fast travel
that is why in a large circle around Loreto there is no conventional piece of Camino Real visible on higher ground
it seems that Arroyos were used as informal Camino Real
amazing also because Loreto was the mother of all mission in Baja
you would expect some impressive parts of trail there

I have found some candidates and a few hints - but no trails as striking as around Comondu or San Isidro.
Especially intriguing is a map entry west of San Basilio - "Cañada el Camino a Loreto"
it indicates a Camino Real section between San Nicolas/San Basilio and Loreto
but no strong evidence on the ground

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric

Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail? The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an arroyo or on slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods.

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

Quote: Originally posted by bajaric   Why would they stack all those rocks next to the trail? The Jesuit trails were probably much less substantial and thus more prone to vanishing over time, especially if they were located in an arroyo or on slopes that are subject to erosion or flash floods. Excerpt from David Kier's excellent article on Cuestas https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/cuestas_... "...where the Camino Real leaves the San Gregorio Plain and Crosby noted that here the old road is very deeply built with loose rock as much as five feet high on each side." Could this have been a form of erosion prevention?

problem with that argument is that those Cuestas were built by El Boleo.
As explained on the San Ignacio section - the ground below the surface rocks is very soft.
it is not that the rocks were piled 5ft high - the ground was worn down by rushing water - increasing the distance between trail floor and top of rocks
the Cuestas were pretty steep compared to today's standards
Cuesta del Tahualila shows an average of 13% with a maximum of 35%
that will create a very destructive water flow

luckily for us Google Earth provides all the tools needed to evaluate roads and trails

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake

A photo of the site might be definitive (seeing it in person likely would), as to whether it is a man-made wall, or an eroded 'berm of rocks'. I would like to know where the Cuesta San Filipe is located. The photo of this that you posted earlier in the thread is spectacular. It looks like, because of its location, it might have been safe from El Boleo molestation. A bit near the top looks possibly steep enough that some would want a 'fixed rope' hand rail (like what could be seen on Half Dome in Yosemite, in past years). [Edited on 10-27-2024 by cupcake]

Cuesta San Felipe - 25.407954°, -111.036353°

Crosby took pictures of Cuesta del Tahualila and Cuesta el Culebreado
below Cuesta el Culebreado
about 2.50 meter wide (8 feet) - clearly visible in the image
since Jesuit ECR is usually 3 to 4 ft wide (2 to 3 ft at Cuestas) this is definitely not ECR but El Boleo
not counting the other 25 clues before and after the Cuesta

hey, just my educated opinion. I am a carpenter, not an archaeologist





[Edited on 10-28-2024 by 4x4abc]