BajaNomad - Possible ECR spur trail

David and Harold and anyone else that might know.

What is this trail?

On Google Earth the coordinates are 28.10549N 113.7267900W.

It is a well defined trail and it appears to have no modern use by wheeled vehicles.

Is it a spur trail for the ECR?

Nope...
Might be one of several N/S auto tracks in the Vizcaino Desert. Many can be attributed to the Pemex oil exploration test wells of the 1950s. I bet Harald has them documented!

An El Camino Real trail connects missions, visitas, water sources, & sea landings. None go into the vast desert plain as the one you tagged does.
There is another parallel to it, just east I spotted.
Zoom in close onto yours and see parallel (auto tire) tracks. ECR is a single track unless an auto road was put on top of it (very common in populated places).

See all the ECR tracks on Google Earth at www.caminorealbaja.com

Keep up the good work, John!

[Edited on 1-30-2025 by David K]

Fatboy - 1-30-2025 at 03:41 PM

Hmmm, flew the drone over it and it does not look like any sort of wheeled made track.

I tried walking on it but it looks like I missed by a 100 feet or so. I thought I was on it but reviewing my track it looks like I came up just a little bit short and found another well defined trail that I walked for a bit.

cupcake - 1-30-2025 at 04:20 PM

I tried walking on it but it looks like I missed by a 100 feet or so.

I haven't yet been down to see any of the ECR trails, but have been making good use of my Garmin GPS device in the San Gabriel mountains of Southern California Alta. I have noticed that depending on the terrain, sometimes I mark a track of waypoints and when I get back to civilization and look at them on Google Earth, there are some individual points that are off by a good 100 feet. I am 100 percent certain of this, as I can see landmarks on Google Earth that I saw on the ground (on the hike), like game trails...and I know exactly where I was and that the Garmin marked waypoint is surprisingly off. I was attributing this to the steep nature of my hikes (cross country, not on a trail), and the large pine trees near my waypoint location.

I just looked at the GPS coordinate you posted, and see that it is right on top of a track or trail. That area doesn't look like the type of terrain that would throw a waypoint reading off.

The track that your GPS coordinate is right on top of looks like a double track, like an automobile track. Not too far south of your posted GPS coordinate, there looks to be a single track, which crosses the double track in a southwest - northeast direction. This single track crosses the double track at 28.1045085, -113.7268056

I can 'follow' that single track on Google Earth a long way to the southwest, where it look like it terminates into a confluence of dirt roads at 28.0802381, -113.7667294, whereas to the northeast not too far before I loose sight of it (I loose confidence in it at 28.1087176, -113.7222020).

Following your GPS marked 'double track' to the north, it looks like it terminates at a good, well-traveled dirt road at 28.1169686, -113.7268403

Following your GPS marked 'double track' to the south, it looks like it terminates at a good, well-traveled dirt road at 28.0923350, -113.7267571

Between the northern and southern terminuses of your GPS marked 'double track', the only followable track on Google Earth I see that intersects the double track, is the single track I mentioned above.

[Edited on 1-31-2025 by cupcake]

David K - 1-30-2025 at 04:22 PM

Hmmm, flew the drone over it and it does not look like any sort of wheeled made track.

I tried walking on it but it looks like I missed by a 100 feet or so. I thought I was on it but reviewing my track it looks like I came up just a little bit short and found another well defined trail that I walked for a bit.

Not sure why you would be out on the open plain, so far west of El Arco?

Fatboy - 1-30-2025 at 05:33 PM

Kinda lost while making my way to G.N. from Rancho Los Corrales
The coordinates I gave are from Google Earth, my track was south of that by about 100 feet.

I was traveling from Los Corrales to G.N. when I stopped for the night. The next AM I was flying the drone around when I saw the track and decided to walk to it after some breakfast.

I walked north from the road I camped along for about a half mile when I came up on a track I thought was it, I then followed it towards the east for about 3/4 of a mile.

Later looking at my path on the phone it looks like I missed what I saw on the drone by a hundred feet or so.

I will probably have to wait until I download and review the drone footage and see if it will give coordinates.

But it certainly looks like a trail, not a road.....

Fatboy - 1-30-2025 at 05:44 PM

Attachment: onXmaps-01_30_25-173808.gpx (347B)
This file has been downloaded 87 times

Not sure if this will work from OnX

cupcake - 1-30-2025 at 05:51 PM

https://filebin.net/mt8gtyt6ybv8afze

John,
I made a KML file of the waypoints I mentioned in my previous post. It is available for the next six days at the above link. The only waypoint that is labeled in this file is your GPS coordinate.

Fatboy - 1-30-2025 at 05:55 PM

Maybe I was walking it and it is the track to the east. If that file works then you can see my actual path

I camped right on the road, walked across the desert to the path the followed it towards the east for aways before turning south back to the road which I then followed west back to my car.....

P.S. Don't ever get lost out there without good current maps.I drove down dead end road after dead end road trying to find my way out of there! No service there and all FOUR of my navigation methods did not help other then give a big overview.

I thought I was going to run out of gas before I found my way out of there!

Fatboy - 1-30-2025 at 06:00 PM

https://filebin.net/mt8gtyt6ybv8afze

John,
I made a KML file of the waypoints I mentioned in my previous post. It is available for the next six days at the above link. The only waypoint that is labeled in this file is your GPS coordinate.

I will when I get home....I hate trying to do stuff on my phone....I need a computer.

cupcake - 1-30-2025 at 06:00 PM

Not sure if this will work from OnX

I tried two online GPX to KML converters and they could not convert your file.

cupcake - 1-30-2025 at 06:13 PM

P.S. Don't ever get lost out there without good current maps.I drove down dead end road after dead end road trying to find my way out of there! No service there and all FOUR of my navigation methods did not help other then give a big overview.

I thought I was going to run out of gas before I found my way out of there!

That is a scary scenario, which I can visualize, even though I haven't been in that situation yet in Baja. It seems to me that having Google Earth with me in such a situation would improve my chances. But, how could a person have Google Earth with them, in an automobile or a backpack?

David K - 1-31-2025 at 08:57 AM

If you want to see where you are relative to El Camino Real, download the free Avenza App and buy the digital Benchmark Baja Atlas ($19.99), which has the ECR and all roads on it. No cell service necessary. It uses satellites to show your live location. It also can show tracks of your travels (to share with us Nomads)!

cupcake - 1-31-2025 at 11:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Thanks David, that's good to know. It looks like a person might even get a setup suitable for a backpack. With a vehicle, maybe no limit to the size of the screen on your device, and maybe no low battery issues as well.

It might not be the same as having Google Earth with you, though. The thing about Google Earth is that you are looking at 'photos' of the actual ground. Or, at least the actual ground the way it was sometime in the past (which may be different after a flood, etc.). I have also noticed that Google Earth can often make terrain look 'smoother' than it really is. I have done hikes with 3rd class climbing, where a fall in the wrong place would result in broken bones or death, and when I get back to the computer and look at the GPS waypoints I marked on the trip, the entire route, including the sketchy sections, looks smooth and easy. Still, with Google Earth, I think I might see things, like game trails, which are not going to be present on other types of maps and apps.

[Edited on 1-31-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 1-31-2025 at 12:46 PM

it is one of the many Pemex exploratory tracks

onX tracks do not work on Google Earth

Screen Shot 2025-01-31 at 12.39.32 PM copy.jpg - 246kB

Screen Shot 2025-01-31 at 12.39.32 PM copy.jpg - 246kB

4x4abc - 1-31-2025 at 12:56 PM

The thing about Google Earth is that you are looking at 'photos' of the actual ground. Or, at least the actual ground the way it was sometime in the past (which may be different after a flood, etc.). I have also noticed that Google Earth can often make terrain look 'smoother' than it really is. I have done hikes with 3rd class climbing, where a fall in the wrong place would result in broken bones or death, and when I get back to the computer and look at the GPS waypoints I marked on the trip, the entire route, including the sketchy sections, looks smooth and easy. Still, with Google Earth, I think I might see things, like game trails, which are not going to be present on other types of maps and apps.

[Edited on 1-31-2025 by cupcake]

in just plain down to earth satellite view everything looks flat
that's why Google Earth has the 3D function where you tilt your view angle
then you see all hills, mountains, deep canyon, steep climbs
Google Earth is the only app that offers this service
it even gives you an elevation profile showing the steepness of any trail in detail

Screen Shot 2025-01-31 at 12.52.30 PM copy.jpg - 288kB

Screen Shot 2025-01-31 at 12.52.30 PM copy.jpg - 288kB

cupcake - 1-31-2025 at 01:23 PM

Harald, thanks for posting the onX image. This is the first onX image I've seen (actually, I didn't even know about onX at all), and it looks impressive. Here is what AI tells me about the difference between onX and Google Earth:

"For outdoor activities like hunting, hiking, and off-roading, onX is generally considered better than Google Earth because it provides highly detailed land ownership information, specific trail data, and custom waypoint creation features, which are not as prominent in Google Earth's general-purpose mapping capabilities; however, if you need a comprehensive view of the Earth for broader exploration and visualization, Google Earth is the better choice."

4x4abc - 1-31-2025 at 02:01 PM

Harald, thanks for posting the onX image. This is the first onX image I've seen (actually, I didn't even know about onX at all), and it looks impressive. Here is what AI tells me about the difference between onX and Google Earth:

"For outdoor activities like hunting, hiking, and off-roading, onX is generally considered better than Google Earth because it provides highly detailed land ownership information, specific trail data, and custom waypoint creation features, which are not as prominent in Google Earth's general-purpose mapping capabilities; however, if you need a comprehensive view of the Earth for broader exploration and visualization, Google Earth is the better choice."

I am showing an Google Earth image
can't open the onX file

cupcake - 1-31-2025 at 02:10 PM

I am showing an Google Earth image
can't open the onX file

OK, thanks for correcting my assumption. I will have to wait for my first onX experience. Just going by what I have been reading, I expect Google Earth to be the better system for me.

[Edited on 1-31-2025 by cupcake]

Fatboy - 2-5-2025 at 08:00 PM

Here are some pictures of the trail.

Clearly a foot path, no wheeled traffic.

Also it is quite deep and well worn.

[Edited on 2-6-2025 by Fatboy]

Fatboy - 2-5-2025 at 08:18 PM

Here is the KML path that I hiked.

I started on the road and walked out to the trail, turned right (westerly), walked along the trail for a bit, then turned right(southerly) and walked back to the road and again turned right(easterly) on to the road and followed the road back to my car.

Attachment: Baja Trail Hike.kml (8kB)
This file has been downloaded 65 times

Fatboy - 2-5-2025 at 09:09 PM

Here is a short drone clip of the trail.

Drone Footage of Trail

This seems to be so much more than just a random trail to me, it is a well used trail and it does not meander, it seems to have a certain destination in mind.

[Edited on 2-6-2025 by Fatboy]

4x4abc - 2-6-2025 at 09:59 AM

you ran into one of the ten thousand animal trails
well defined on Google Earth

Attachment: cr min anim.kmz (7kB)
This file has been downloaded 38 times

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 10:27 AM

John, The two-wheeled track is a short distance to the west of the circuit you have mapped in the new KML file you just posted. The GPS coordinate you posted to start this thread is right on top of the two-wheeled track. The upper left, or north-west leg of the diamond-shaped route you have mapped in your newly posted KML file, is the single-track trail that crosses the two-wheeled track, which I saw previously on Google Earth.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen video taken from a drone. It looks awesome! If you can watch this video live, as it is taken in the field, I can see how this would be a great navigational tool.

I'm still hoping to get down to hike something on the ECR (anything), but I'm waiting for warmer weather. I can't carry much weight anymore (I probably could, but don't want to), so I am wanting to go as light as possible - as little as possible besides food and water.

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 10:45 AM

Screenshot of your route, with (approximate) original GPS coordinate of thread (top) and single-track trail intersection (bottom).

[Edited on 2-6-2025 by cupcake]

Fatboy - 2-6-2025 at 10:51 AM

you ran into one of the ten thousand animal trails
well defined on Google Earth

Hmmmm..... Not saying that animals do not use/make trails and I am not saying that animals do not use this one BUT.....

This trail, through very open desert does not seem to fit what 'animals' would usually do.

Most trails that have that much use are much shorter, usually through as pass where a bunch of fainter trails converge together.

This trail is at least a mile long in open desert....

Just does not seem like a trail made by animals.

Fatboy - 2-6-2025 at 10:56 AM

John, The two-wheeled track is a short distance to the west of the circuit you have mapped in the new KML file you just posted. The GPS coordinate you posted to start this thread is right on top of the two-wheeled track. The upper left, or north-west leg of the diamond-shaped route you have mapped in your newly posted KML file, is the single-track trail that crosses the two-wheeled track, which I saw previously on Google Earth.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen video taken from a drone. It looks awesome! If you can watch this video live, as it is taken in the field, I can see how this would be a great navigational tool.

I'm still hoping to get down to hike something on the ECR (anything), but I'm waiting for warmer weather. I can't carry much weight anymore (I probably could, but don't want to), so I am wanting to go as light as possible - as little as possible besides food and water.

Yeah, remember, when I was getting coordinates the first time I just looked on my tiny phone screen, saw a faint line close to where I was, assumed that was it and posted those locations.

Once everyone on here said it was a two track, and I looked at it on a larger screen, I realized I had marked the wrong location.

Hopefully you get a chance to do some hiking in Baja, it has a quality rarely matched with hikes in the states.

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 11:07 AM

With Harald's overlay.

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 11:12 AM

Hopefully you get a chance to do some hiking in Baja, it has a quality rarely matched with hikes in the states.

I think I know what you mean. It is wild in comparison to maintained trails.

I am hoping to go without tent and sleeping bag, so I need to wait for late spring or early summer. Just a pad and bivi sack.

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 11:16 AM

Yeah, remember, when I was getting coordinates the first time I just looked on my tiny phone screen, saw a faint line close to where I was, assumed that was it and posted those locations.

Like me trying to use the topo map on my Garmin in the field; even with my reading glasses it is a challenge.

4x4abc - 2-6-2025 at 03:52 PM

you ran into one of the ten thousand animal trails
well defined on Google Earth

100% authentic Baja cow/burro trail
they often help locating old vehicle trails
these animals will follow a trail, once established by vehicles, for the next 100 years
the one below (in front of the Toyota) helped us find an old route in 2012

https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/La-Fortuna

DSC_3703 animal trail over old road 800.jpg - 324kB

4x4abc - 2-6-2025 at 03:59 PM

I have a couple of hundred examples in my collection
Baja cow trails are very distinct
and they last a long time

https://carlosnpainter.smugmug.com/Events/La-Fortuna/i-JRC6W...

cupcake - 2-6-2025 at 05:20 PM

100% authentic Baja cow/burro trail
they often help locating old vehicle trails
these animals will follow a trail, once established by vehicles, for the next 100 years

Interesting. John was probably thinking game trails, the same as me. Now, I can see there is a big difference between a game animal trail and a domestic or livestock animal trail, the former being more wispy and wild looking.

[Edited on 2-7-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-6-2025 at 09:19 PM

well, main animal trails are well visible from space
the difference to cow trails is that they are not much carved into the ground
reason is likely that cows are heavier than Pumas, big horn, foxes, coyotes

a quick inspection of the footprints would give it away

Fatboy - 2-7-2025 at 09:33 AM

I understand what you are saying, and my thoughts were horse/cow trail not wild game except for the following reason...this trail goes on for perhaps several miles in the open desert with cow tracks going every which way in the desert around that trail.

My point being that you only see deep cow trails like this in open country for short distances, and usually through narrow areas. Once the terrain opens back up the cows usually disperse and make many fainter trails that usually fade out to nothing, then usually becoming well defined again when it encounters another bottleneck in the terrain.

If this trail was only a couple of hundred yards I would completely agree, but it's long length opens up the possibility of it being something other than a game/cow trail at least originally.

Having followed miles of such trails on my hikes of the ECR (and my years of exploring the deserts of Northern Nevada) shows this to be mostly true, and the trails that do go so directly across open country for so long all appear to be man-made originally even though they are currently used by animals far more than humans nowadays.

cupcake - 2-7-2025 at 09:50 AM

My point being that you only see deep cow trails like this in open country for short distances, and usually through narrow areas. Once the terrain opens back up the cows usually disperse and make many fainter trails that usually fade out to nothing, then usually becoming well defined again when it encounters another bottleneck in the terrain.

The trail seen in your drone video footage looks fairly deep, maybe a foot in places? I could see cows not wanting to walk in something like that, especially if there was flat ground for them nearby (as long as it was not too sandy), in the same way that a grate in the ground will keep a cow from walking through an open gateway in a fence.

An interesting thing about the single track 'trail' I can see on Google Earth, the same trail that Harald has marked (in green on the image above in this thread), and that forms the north-west leg of your hike, is that it seems to peter out at its northern end. I loose sight of it there on Google Earth, and it appears Harald did as well, as his green line ends at this point. If it is a cattle trail, why does it peter out there?

[Edited on 2-7-2025 by cupcake]

Fatboy - 2-7-2025 at 10:43 AM

If I had known all this, I would have flown the drone further along the trail to see just how long it is....oh well, now I will probably never know....

baja-chris1 - 2-7-2025 at 12:13 PM

There are cattle ranchers out there with livestock on open range as well as fenced on vast tracts. The cattle will form trails as they move from grazing areas to areas where the rancher may have water or feed.

Starlink Mini is a game changer, I have one on my exploration vehicle now, and can move it from truck to truck as desired. Hikers even take them in backpacks, powered by cordless power tool battery packs. With this you have full communications, google earth, etc. I have a backup battery in the trucks.

Carry plenty of water and fuel and there is no reason to become hopelessly lost and run out of fuel or supplies.

A far cry from my first remote baja explorations with nothing more than a AAA map and jerry cans of fuel, water, and tools/camping gear.

4x4abc - 2-7-2025 at 01:21 PM

If I had known all this, I would have flown the drone further along the trail to see just how long it is....oh well, now I will probably never know....

I can tell you
the trail peters out going NE
it originates in Colonia Agropecuaria El Paraíso
it heads for Rancho El Cancer
it is well defined north of Rancho El Cancer - heading for Rancho Miramar

El Cancer.jpg - 172kB

4x4abc - 2-7-2025 at 01:26 PM

animal trails (cows are no different) peter out because on their way between 2 distinct sources of food/water they may encounter tempting growth of feed
the trail will then later consolidate.

Lance S. - 2-7-2025 at 01:46 PM

From Dr Ives article Problems of the SerraRoute.

Search for the Serra and other trails in Baja California is not as simple as is sometimes believed, for the entire peninsula is crisscrossed with trails, some made by men afoot, others by pack and saddle animals, and still others by wheeled vehicles. If the original route was nearly optimum, the newer trails, including a few paved roads, have obliterated many parts of the older trails. This proliferation of trails, observable on the ground in many places, is even more apparent when the land is viewed from the air under suitable lighting conditions. Most of the older trails converge at water holes, and many “new” water holes, most of them seasonal, cathartic, or now dried up, have been located by following old foot trails.

Characteristics of man trails and mule trails are summarized in Fig. 7. The fracturing and subsequent erosion of the surface of the mule trail is almost surely due to iron-shod hooves. From the widths of the horse and mule trails in Baja California and Sonora, it is probable that the Spanish pack and saddle animals did not “singlefoot.” Appearance of a man trail over which no ridden or loaded animal has ever passed is shown in Fig. 8. This is an Areneno Papago trail at Pinacate, Sonora, an area for which we have a very complete and dependable travel record dating back to 1540.

Mule trails, in Baja California, went from mission to mission over optimum routes. Optimum here does not mean in a straight line, or over a path of least gradient, but usually entailed detours to reach intermediate water holes, and routings that took them through areas of maximum grazing. Much of the old Jesuit trail went over the plateaus, where temperatures were lower than on the coastal bajadas, where grass was more plentiful, and where air motion was greater than at sea level.

Mule trails, wherever found, tend to have some definite characteristics. These are outlined in Fig. 9, a group of generalized figures incorporating some observations by the late William H. Jackson, who had extensive experience as a packer about a century ago. Using suitably named fictitious points, where travel by a few animals was fairly rapid, and there were no geographical constraints, travel might have been in a reasonably straight line between the terminals, as in A.

When travel was slower, so that the animals grazed en route, and there were still no geographical constraints, the single trail is replaced by a multiplicity of trails, complexly braided, covering a lunate area between the points, as in B. Such braiding of trails can be seen from the air on the plateau between San Javier and Comondu, and in the plain northeast of San Telmo.

If, as is the usual situation, geographical constraints are present, the trail pattern will look something like C. Here, the animals do not usually climb steep hills to graze; and, Mission Santa Gertrudis.

Lance S. - 2-7-2025 at 01:49 PM

Images from the article in the link at the top of the article

https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1975/october/serra-7/

Cosby disagrees with some of it, I will try to find his article after work.

Fatboy - 2-7-2025 at 01:56 PM

If I had known all this, I would have flown the drone further along the trail to see just how long it is....oh well, now I will probably never know....

I can tell you
the trail peters out going NE
it originates in Colonia Agropecuaria El Paraíso
it heads for Rancho El Cancer
it is well defined north of Rancho El Cancer - heading for Rancho Miramar

So, it does appear to be a man-made trail then.....

cupcake - 2-8-2025 at 10:41 AM

I enjoyed reading the article and seeing the associated images, posted above by Lance S.

Lance, If you find the article by Crosby, where he refutes any of the points made in the article you posted above, please post that Crosby information on this thread as well.

cupcake - 2-8-2025 at 10:54 AM

If I had known all this, I would have flown the drone further along the trail to see just how long it is....oh well, now I will probably never know....

I can tell you
the trail peters out going NE
it originates in Colonia Agropecuaria El Paraíso
it heads for Rancho El Cancer
it is well defined north of Rancho El Cancer - heading for Rancho Miramar

So, it does appear to be a man-made trail then.....

I don't have the experience of seeing cattle trails on the ground in Baja, that you and Harald have, but I have seen many game trails made by big horn sheep and deer in areas of California Alta. I feel confident in saying that the trail seen in your drone video footage is not a game trail made by wild animals. They might have also walked in that trail, but there is something else going on there.

[Edited on 2-9-2025 by cupcake]

Fatboy - 2-8-2025 at 11:24 AM

I would agree, sure it is used by animals, and portions of it may have been original game trails but overall it appears to be a human made trail.

Why man-made?

The apparent amount of use in open country.

The directness of it.

The length of it.

The fact that it appears to go between points of human sites(ranchos or former ranchos)

It is not any one point that makes it possibly man-made but all of the points combined that suggest so.

Now it could just be ranchers travelling between their ranchos that made the trail originally, but I do find it interesting that no stock was driven over it. No herds of horses or cows, just single file animals.

A tiny mystery at best, but still a mystery....

4x4abc - 2-9-2025 at 08:31 AM

If I had known all this, I would have flown the drone further along the trail to see just how long it is....oh well, now I will probably never know....

I can tell you
the trail peters out going NE
it originates in Colonia Agropecuaria El Paraíso
it heads for Rancho El Cancer
it is well defined north of Rancho El Cancer - heading for Rancho Miramar

So, it does appear to be a man-made trail then.....

there is no indication for that

4x4abc - 2-9-2025 at 09:19 AM

https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1976/april/camino/

I enjoyed reading the article and seeing the associated images, posted above by Lance S.

Lance, If you find the article by Crosby, where he refutes any of the points made in the article you posted above, please post that Crosby information on this thread as well.

cupcake - 2-9-2025 at 10:57 AM

Harald,
Thanks for posting a link to the Crosby article, it is an interesting read.

An excerpt from the Crosby article that you linked:

"The only instance of trail building which supports Ives’ statement is the pair of parallel trails between Santa Gertrudis and San Borja. The problem of these and other alternate routes along El Camino Real will be considered in a subsequent article to be published in a forthcoming issue of this Journal."

If Crosby did publish an article on the parallel ECR trails between Santa Gertrudis and San Borja, and you are aware of it, a link to that article would be great.

[Edited on 2-9-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-9-2025 at 10:30 PM

Harald,
Thanks for posting a link to the Crosby article, it is an interesting read.

An excerpt from the Crosby article that you linked:

"The only instance of trail building which supports Ives’ statement is the pair of parallel trails between Santa Gertrudis and San Borja. The problem of these and other alternate routes along El Camino Real will be considered in a subsequent article to be published in a forthcoming issue of this Journal."

If Crosby did publish an article on the parallel ECR trails between Santa Gertrudis and San Borja, and you are aware of it, a link to that article would be great.

[Edited on 2-9-2025 by cupcake]

there is nothing to publish about
there are no 2 parallel ECR

cupcake - 2-10-2025 at 11:53 AM

On Kevin and Genevieve's website, they have marked waypoints for two routes between Santa Gertrudis and San Borja. I see they do this at other places on the ECR as well.

I wonder what Crosby meant when he stated two parallel ECR routes between these locations.

I think I've read that there was a Gulf ECR and a Sierra ECR, one for winter and the other for summer.

cupcake - 2-10-2025 at 11:58 AM

From David's website:
https://vivabaja.com/ecr/
"As in the previous section (San Ignacio to Santa Gertrudis), more than one trail was the Camino Real."

David K - 2-10-2025 at 12:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Images from the article in the link at the top of the article

https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/1975/october/serra-7/

Cosby disagrees with some of it, I will try to find his article after work.

Ron Ives did much work on mapping the Spanish routes, his map and notes on the 1684 'First to the Pacific' (Atondo-Kino Expedition) were helpful but between Harald and I, last year, were not always 100% accurate.

Ives mentions Gerhard & Gulick's Lower California Guidebook, but not Gulick's amazing work on locating El Camino Real, in an unpublished 1954 paper. Work that assisted Harry Crosby in his rides and writing 'The King's Highway in Baja California (in 1974).

I think you can find most of these early works on my website's History page... Let me know if I can be of assistance. We all know of the 25 years of ground-proofing done and published at www.CaminoRealBaja.com , yes?
Also, the final leg of Serra's route (from San Fernando de Velicatá to San Diego) is exactly located in Harry Crosby's 2003 'Gateway to Alta California'. It wasn't the best choice of names for a title (since it is 95% about Baja California), many did not buy it.

Some links to ECR maps and more:
https://vivabaja.com/hgreal/
https://vivabaja.com/ecr/
https://vivabaja.com/ecr-crossings/

cupcake - 2-10-2025 at 12:55 PM

I wonder what Crosby meant when he stated two parallel ECR routes between these locations.

https://octopup.org/img/misc/davidk/ecr/ecr-maps-1.jpg

The above link is to Crosby ECR maps combined, which probably shows what he meant by "parallel route". This link is to the map on David's website. That is, David's mindblowing wealth of information website!

David K - 2-10-2025 at 05:44 PM

I wonder what Crosby meant when he stated two parallel ECR routes between these locations.

I am so happy you are enjoying my site's content...
There were parallel trails between missions for a variety of reasons, not limited to:

1) Seasonal trails for water sources (west side of mountains, east side, along the top)

2) To visit various Native tribes (rancherias) or visiting stations/ chapels (visitas) between two missions.

3) A newer route was made to improves upon a previous route. [Just look at the trails radiating out from San Ignacio, north and south]

Just the Jesuits' way of giving us more things to explore!

cupcake - 2-11-2025 at 11:06 AM

Thanks for this information, David. And, thanks for being so generous with your Baja Almanac by making the PDF available on your website.

I've been looking at the ECR from Loreto to San Javier. According to Kevin and Genevieve, the ECR followed the arroyo out of Loreto until it was forced up and out by waterfalls and cascades. I've read that the trail normally avoided arroyos because of the risk of flash floods, but apparently there are some exceptions. I think the paved road from Loreto to San Javier now covers much of the original ECR, but there looks to be some of the old trail left to walk in this section that is not under the pavement (in addition to that at the start, in the arroyo).

[Edited on 2-11-2025 by cupcake]

David K - 2-11-2025 at 11:25 AM

Yes, where the paved road is on the north side of the canyon, climbing up, the older dirt road and ECR is on the south side. I have a photo in the page I made giving the locations where ECR meets modern roads.

https://vivabaja.com/ecr-crossings/

[Edited on 2-11-2025 by David K]

cupcake - 2-11-2025 at 12:47 PM

That is a great photo, for showing the old dirt auto road and original ECR running close to each other. I guess I would have to keep my eyes peeled so as not to miss walking on the sacred trail. Knowing that there is a difference in width between the two would help. It's good to know that one could walk on some of the original trail in this section.

I rode a bicycle on the pavement of this section last year. Going back and walking it is attractive for me, because I know if I get into trouble I can walk over to the pavement and stick out my thumb (and maybe some cash) for a ride back down the hill.

[Edited on 2-11-2025 by cupcake]

David K - 2-11-2025 at 01:51 PM

Indeed!
Do know that modern roads are on top of the Jesuit and later trails in many places. A lot is not, simply because car roads cannot go where mules can and require a wider pathway up and down mountainsides.

4x4abc - 2-11-2025 at 03:21 PM

That is a great photo, for showing the old dirt auto road and original ECR running close to each other. I guess I would have to keep my eyes peeled so as not to miss walking on the sacred trail. Knowing that there is a difference in width between the two would help. It's good to know that one could walk on some of the original trail in this section.

I rode a bicycle on the pavement of this section last year. Going back and walking it is attractive for me, because I know if I get into trouble I can walk over to the pavement and stick out my thumb (and maybe some cash) for a ride back down the hill.

[Edited on 2-11-2025 by cupcake]

Camino Real from Loreto to Mision San Javier does not run through Las Parras!
It was the route to the first San Javier site.
Camino Real from Loreto to San Javier runs through Primera Agua and Rancho Incha

4x4abc - 2-11-2025 at 04:14 PM

the 2 "parallel" tracks of Camino real west of Mision Santa Gertrudis Crosby is referring to, are not Camino Real
They are early 1900's dozer tracks by El Boleo (the French mining company out of Santa Rosalia)

the tools available to the early Baja experts were quite crude
now we have Google Earth and other even more potent visual tools

Screen Shot 2025-02-11 at 4.03.09 PM copy.jpg - 291kB

Screen Shot 2025-02-11 at 4.03.09 PM copy.jpg - 291kB

mtgoat666 - 2-11-2025 at 04:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Characteristics of man trails and mule trails are summarized in Fig. 7. The fracturing and subsequent erosion of the surface of the mule trail is almost surely due to iron-shod hooves.

Do you guys know what type of equine were used by the early folk? Donkeys/burros were unlikely to be shod. Mules are shod less frequently than horses. Not sure your iron shoe trail hypothesis should be applied unless you know horses were significantly in use.

[Edited on 2-11-2025 by mtgoat666]

cupcake - 2-11-2025 at 04:48 PM

That implies the Spanish found the route through Incha to be better than their previous route (the route that you say was used to reach the first San Javier mission site, reportedly a few km north of the present San Javier site).
Looking at the area on Caltopo, it is easy enough to reach Incha from Loreto. And, it is easy enough to reach the present San Javier site from Los Dolores. But, connecting Incha with Los Dolores looks like more of a challenge. There are a number of possibilities, but none look better than reaching the present San Javier site via the route marked by Crosby and others (the old route).

Harald, can you cite a source for your information that the 'new route' to the new and present San Javier site is through Incha? Also, how would you get to San Javier today if going through Incha? Canada El Manchon? Canada La Presa?

A plausible route (on paper they often look better than they do on the ground) might be from Incha, south through Canada El Manchon, up and over to Arroyo Las Cargas de Lena, following this south-west past Las Higueras to El Pua and then on to Los Dolores and San Javier.

The possible routes from Incha look like they have a lot of brush, on Google Earth, and I don't see an trace of trails.

[Edited on 2-12-2025 by cupcake]

cupcake - 2-11-2025 at 04:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Lance S.

Characteristics of man trails and mule trails are summarized in Fig. 7. The fracturing and subsequent erosion of the surface of the mule trail is almost surely due to iron-shod hooves.

I think they had everything. All the images of the Spanish 'leather soldiers' I see show them on horseback. The 'shod hypothesis' was put forward by Dr. Ives. I don't know how our knowledgeable resident ECR members feel about that hypothesis. Myself, I don't yet know enough about the subject to have an opinion.

4x4abc - 2-12-2025 at 12:03 AM

Cuesta Incha 25.899668°, -111.471612° and Cuesta El Tular 25.902595°, -111.474244°. Cuesta El Triunfo also has a visible trail 25.905130°, -111.478959°.
Arroyo El Triunfo seems like an easy, but longer walk from San Javier.
There is a trail in a nameless canyon leading to a Cuesta at 25.903759°, -111.499789° that is much shorter.
More direct, following Jesuit philosophy

can I cite a source for the information of the 'new route'?
yes, Harald Pietschmann
been studying the trail for the last 10 years
many hours every day

here is one of the indications that the Jesuits used that route - it has many locations with date palm trees
they don't seed themselves and are hard to grow
not a guarantee but a strong indication of Jesuit involvement

below all visible trails and the date locations

Screen Shot 2025-02-12 at 12.00.52 AM copy.jpg - 305kB

Screen Shot 2025-02-12 at 12.00.52 AM copy.jpg - 305kB

cupcake - 2-12-2025 at 10:41 AM

Harald, Thanks for posting these possibilities and their GPS coordinates. It looks to me that these possibilities represent original research by you. It would be good to find reports of contemporary (18th century and early 19th century) travelers taking any of these routes.

Have you been on the ground at any of these areas, or had a report from someone who has?

I am posting a Google Earth screen shot of the Cuesta Incha GPS coordinates you posted. This is labeled with a question mark at the top of the image. I see no evidence of a questa here, and there is very steep terrain below this point, towards (Rancho) Incha, which is also marked. I have marked a better pass, but there is what looks like rock bands below this, towards (Rancho) Incha. I suspect I could negotiate this with a day pack, and possibly also a full pack. But, I don't know how loaded pack animals would do. Once at this pass, I think the travel is good all the way to Mission San Javier. I see no evidence of old (or any) trail in this area. Click on the image for an enlargement.

Cuesta Incha cropped & resized.jpg - 337kB

[Edited on 2-12-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-12-2025 at 11:09 AM

you are pointing out Cuesta El Triunfo
it has a visible trail
however, I have not been bale to find a connecting trail in Arroyo El Tular
might be washed out or hiding in the vegetation

4x4abc - 2-12-2025 at 01:28 PM

you are right - there are a number of possibilities in that area

David K - 2-12-2025 at 03:23 PM

Not sure if this applies still, but I saw it mentioned...

You can read in my book (page 35), the mission was first established at what we know today as Rancho Viejo (in 1699), 5 miles north of the final site (where it was moved to between 1710 and 1730) which was a farm named San Pablo.

The huge stone church was built from 1744 to 1758. The Year 1751 is carved above the doorway.

Most sources gave 1710 as the move year, but when I read the diary of Mission San Juan Bautista de Ligüí's missionary made in 1720, he still called the (future) place San Pablo, during his return from La Paz.

San Javier's missionary, responsible for the move (Juan de Ugarte), was there from 1704 to 1730. So, I am more inclined to call the move happening between 1720 and 1730.

I am not seeing enough to guess where the other route tom San Javier may be, but as a rule, the Jesuits took the shortest, most direct route even if steeper. Rancho Viejo (the first San Javier site) was called 'Biaundo' by the Natives who lived there.

The slightly humorous story about 'La Vigge', in my chapter comes from Choral Pepper, of Desert Magazine and the very interesting Baja missions book >>>

1973 edition:

1975 edition:

cupcake - 2-12-2025 at 06:34 PM

you are right - there are a number of possibilities in that area

I would try Canada El Manchon. I have marked the top of its headwall:
25.8806656, -111.4583865

You can plug the GPS coordinate for the headwall top into Google Earth and then zoom in to see that slope (and follow the drainage on the other side all the way to Los Dolores and San Javier). To me, this looks more promising for people and animals (toggle back and forth from 2D to 3D to really see the slope up the headwall). Once at the headwall top, the traveling is good all the way to Los Dolores and on to San Javier.

Canada El Manchon - cropped & resized (1).jpg - 55kB

Canada El Manchon - cropped & resized (1).jpg - 55kB

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

cupcake - 2-12-2025 at 06:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I am not seeing enough to guess where the other route tom San Javier may be, but as a rule, the Jesuits took the shortest, most direct route even if steeper.

I haven't yet seen a route that looks certain to have had the missionaries abandoning their first route. I probably would need to try the most promising alternatives on the ground, to really know what they entail, before having a confident opinion.

The route from Rancho Incha to the top of Arroyo El Triunfo, then on to San Javier, is shorter than the Canada El Manchon-Los Dolores-San Javier route. But, the Triunfo route has some shaded areas on Goggle Earth that I can not see well enough to feel confident about what is there. It could be easy hiking, or there could be some steps that present difficult obstacles. The longer route, through Canada El Manchon-Los Dolores, I feel I can see on Google Earth more clearly. It doesn't take me too long to walk an extra two or three miles, and animals have always been faster in my experience (on easy ground).

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-12-2025 at 07:53 PM

OK - I ran all 3 routes trough elevation profile etc

San Javier through Las Parras to Loreto - 30km
San Javier short route (north of San Javier) through Rancho Incha to Loreto - 31km
San Javier long route through Arroyo El Triunfo (southern most) and Rancho Incha to Loreto - 36km

the Incha route has a much easier path towards Loreto - but a high mountain and a nasty Cuesta
going through Arroyo El Triunfo skips the high mountain, but adds 5km

so yes, the Incha routes exist, but we can safely assume that the Las Parras route was the main Camino Real route

Screen Shot 2025-02-12 at 7.29.34 PM copy.jpg - 329kB

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 10:27 AM

Harald, Those elevation profiles are interesting. This morning, I took a look at the Incha area on Caltopo, in hopes of getting a better 'look' at the 'Three Cuesta' and 'Better Pass' area, to see if there are any 'steps' in the drainage that serves these features. I don't see any steps leading up to the 'Better Pass'. Zooming in on this area, and selecting 10 foot contour intervals gives a look at what a person on the ground would face.

In doing this, I noticed that Arroyo El Triunfo was mismarked on my Google Earth screen shots from yesterday, and Cuesta El Triunfo was missing. In the Google Earth screen shot I am attaching to this post, I have relocated the mark for Arroyo El Triunfo where I feel it belongs, marked Cuesta El Triunfo, and marked 'Unnamed Drainage 2' where Arroyo El Triunfo was previously. Following this 'Unnamed Drainage 2' down to the west, it reaches the paved road to San Javier from Loreto a short distance before the Mission.

Note that Arroyo El Triunfo and 'Unnamed Drainage 1' meet a short distance below El Manglito.

This Google Earth screen shot is looking south. Click on the image for an enlargement.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

Unnamed Drainage - cropped & resized.jpg - 280kB

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 10:50 AM

OK - I ran all 3 routes trough elevation profile etc

San Javier through Las Parras to Loreto - 30km
San Javier short route (north of San Javier) through Rancho Incha to Loreto - 31km
San Javier long route through Arroyo El Triunfo (southern most) and Rancho Incha to Loreto - 36km

the Incha route has a much easier path towards Loreto - but a high mountain and a nasty Cuesta
going through Arroyo El Triunfo skips the high mountain, but adds 5km

so yes, the Incha routes exist, but we can safely assume that the Las Parras route was the main Camino Real route

I believe your "San Javier short route" is my 'Unnamed Drainage 2' route.

Your 'San Javier long route' is my 'Arroyo El Triunfo / Unnamed Drainage 1' route.

My 'Canada El Manchon-Arroyo Las Cargas de Lena route' would be about the same distance as the 'San Javier long route' (Arroyo El Triunfo / Unnamed Drainage 1), but possibly over less difficult ground. I am seeing what looks like many more points of water on this route, which might also serve to recommend it.

My estimate for the time needed to walk the extra 5km is one hour. I am calculating for the easier terrain at the end of the route. I believe over this type of ground, animals would be faster, whether loaded with supplies or humans. In my prime, using pack animals on trips in the Andes of South America, I was normally not able to match the speed of the animals.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 10:55 AM

Your Date Palm hypothesis for identifying missionary routes is interesting.

If a metal detector could find artifacts from missionaries, along these routes, that might be solid evidence.

I wonder if evidence for these routes might exist in the writings of the missionaries.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 11:36 AM

How Cuesta El Triunfo got its name

Screen Shot 2025-02-13 at 11.34.19 AM copy.jpg - 288kB

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 11:41 AM

the elevation profiles from Google Earth

Las Parras route

Incha route

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 12:10 PM

I have corrected my Arroyo El Triunfo mark, and added a mark for Cuesta El Triunfo. My previous Google Earth screen shot of today has been updated to show these.

I still do not see evidence of a trail for Cuesta El Triunfo, so have labeled it with a question mark.

Your profile images for the two routes seems to indicate that Las Parras would be more 'animal friendly'.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 12:22 PM

I have corrected my Arroyo El Triunfo mark, and added a mark for Cuesta El Triunfo. My previous Google Earth screen shot of today has been updated to show these.

I still do not see evidence of a trail for Cuesta El Trinfo, so have labeled it with a question mark.

Your profile images for the two routes seems to indicate that Las Parras would be more 'animal friendly'.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

the Incha route has a nasty climb over a 900 meters pass and a gruelling drop into Incha. Advantage is the low elevation change between Incha and Loreto

the Parras route has comfortable terrain between San Javier and Las Parras. The drop is steep but manageable. But the terrain between the bottom of Las Parras and Loreto has not a single comfortable route to Loreto - unless you follow the river bed.
Even though animals and Jesuits avoid river beds, it seems like in the Loreto region river beds have been used and are still in use as they have no waterfalls and feature small, firm walkable gravel.
But there had to be a backup for times when the river bed was wet.
I haven't found a suitable route.
There are not even hints of a route.
Our resident experts Kevin and Genevieve haven't located one either.

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 12:25 PM

I would like to see the profile of my Incha-Canada El Manchon-Arroyo Las Cargas de Lena route.

On Google Earth, I see many more possible points of water on this route than on the others.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 12:35 PM

here is an example of date palm locations and Camino Real routes

Screen Shot 2025-02-13 at 12.32.53 PM copy.jpg - 295kB

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by 4x4abc]

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 12:48 PM

I would like to see the profile of my Incha-Canada El Manchon-Arroyo Las Cargas de Lena route.

On Google Earth, I see many more possible points of water on this route than on the others.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

here we go - 37 km

Screen Shot 2025-02-13 at 12.44.03 PM.png - 100kB

4x4abc - 2-13-2025 at 12:54 PM

very likely used by the many people living in Los Dolores and the ranchos around it
the trails show a good presence

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 12:59 PM

I start to see those trails down in the drainage of Arroyo Las Cargas de Lena, but I don't see any higher up around the top of Canada El Manchon. Maybe it is there and I just haven't been able to pick it out.

This profile has an abrupt rise as well..

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 01:02 PM

Your profile images for the two routes seems to indicate that Las Parras would be more 'animal friendly'.

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

I should walk back that statement, as this all depends on the number and quality of switchbacks on a slope (in a cuesta).

[Edited on 2-13-2025 by cupcake]

cupcake - 2-13-2025 at 01:28 PM

the Incha route has a nasty climb over a 900 meters pass and a gruelling drop into Incha. Advantage is the low elevation change between Incha and Loreto

I can see that the Incha profile is for the short route (30km). The climb up to the 900m pass looks like it starts from about 500m, so the elevation gain is 400m, which in itself is not that bad.

I want to say that in my experience, it is better to see a possibly sketchy route for the first time by ascending it, not descending it. I find this is safer, as I negotiate terrain more easily going up than I do going down. If I were doing this route, or the Arroyo El Triunfo route, I would want to be traveling from Incha to San Javier when seeing the route for the first time. I guestimate that the section encountered out of Incha is more challenging than the slope from San Javier up to the 900m pass.

David K - 2-15-2025 at 09:10 AM

By-the-way, I shared this thread with Kevin (CaminoRealBaja.com) and learned they were just in the area of Calmallí Viejo researching trails (sent me a great photo) and are now exploring routes near Mulegé to San Ignacio.

I think we all agree the Crosby map route of 1977 (dashed line), in the canyon beyond Magdalena is not Jesuit in nature.

https://sandiegohistory.org/journal/77winter/images/p20-21.g...

cupcake - 2-15-2025 at 10:41 AM

When I click on the link I get an error message stating that "this website does not allow hotlinking." When I copy and paste the link into a new browser window and press enter, the map comes up perfectly.

I was going to email Kevin and Genevieve with a question. I want to run the same question by this thread. Is there a section of the ECR that you feel has the best preserved original trail that a hiker can view (walk and photograph)? I mean a trail that is not questioned by any of the people steeped in this subject, as to its authenticity.

Another question: I have seen the intact surviving cut-stone missions (San Borja, Santa Gertrudis, San Ignacio, Mulege, Loreto, San Javier, San Luis Gonzaga), and I am wondering if there are any surviving cut-stone Visitas.

[Edited on 2-15-2025 by cupcake]

4x4abc - 2-15-2025 at 01:11 PM

best preserved, easiest to reach is ECR between Arroyo Santa Maria and Mission Santa Maria
somewhat trampled by recent MC travel, but pristine otherwise.

4x4abc - 2-15-2025 at 01:22 PM

another good one is between Rancho Chula Vista (north of San Javier) and Arroyo SanTa Isabel - about 4 Kilometers
first part after Rancho Chula Vista widened by bulldozer, but otherwise pristine
great hike!
25.921456°, -111.568595°

cupcake - 2-15-2025 at 02:11 PM

Thanks Harald!
You told me about the Mission Santa Maria section some time ago. I am glad to know about the pristine ECR trail north of Chula Vista, as I have been looking at the San Javier to Comondu section.

[Edited on 2-16-2025 by cupcake]

David K - 2-15-2025 at 03:59 PM

best preserved, easiest to reach is ECR between Arroyo Santa Maria and Mission Santa Maria
somewhat trampled by recent MC travel, but pristine otherwise.

That section was made after the Jesuits were removed, which explains why it is so narrow and unlike the ECR south of San Borja (which is far easier to find and hike than the section south of San Sebastian that has proven difficult to follow).

[Edited on 2-15-2025 by David K]

cupcake - 2-17-2025 at 07:39 PM

I had a question about the ethics and legality of using someone else's GPS waypoints and found this online:

"If the waypoints are publicly shared online, like on a hiking website or forum, it's usually fine to use them without contacting the original creator. "
"If the waypoints are shared privately, always ask for permission before using them, especially if they involve sensitive locations like private property or restricted areas."
"When using someone else's waypoints, consider giving credit to the original creator, especially if you are sharing them further."

Fatboy - 2-17-2025 at 08:09 PM

I would think that if someone posted waypoints on a public forum it would be OK to use them.

But it is a point I never considered, is it different than other content such as music, writings, photos and videos?

To me it seems to be different, but maybe I am wrong.

From Kevin of CaminoRealBaja.com:

David K - 2-18-2025 at 08:10 AM

After sending Kevin the link to this thread, I soon got a lengthy reply... from him in Baja.

Here is the first part of his reply, in regards to their just completed section search, north of El Arco:

Hello David,
It is always good to hear from you. It is funny this came up. We were in that area just a couple of weeks ago and we are still in Baja. We were looking into ECR and trying to find existing pieces of it between the kiln and Rancho la Union. We were successful in coming up with some new finds. Some of the trail in that area does not show on Google Earth and the terrain is mostly soft dirt and sand with very few rocks around. Still, we were overall happy with the results...

By the way, while having dinner with the ranchers at Rancho Las Palomas near Calmallí Viejo, Victor mentioned the Pacifico in route to San Borja and named the ranches on the trail. We want to talk to him again and see what we can come up with on that branch.

Kevin gave me permission to share this photo with you: "Approaching the waterhole."

Fatboy - 2-18-2025 at 09:11 AM

Does he say what waterhole? At Calmallí Viejo?

My walk in that area was an interesting hike, but I was probably, rarely if ever on the ECR.

I did find water and what appears to be on old trail in one of the washes between Rancho la Union and the Kiln.

I started about a mile north of Rancho la Union and hiked to Rancho Los Corrales and back on that trip in 2022.

cupcake - 2-18-2025 at 09:19 AM

I would think that if someone posted waypoints on a public forum it would be OK to use them.

But it is a point I never considered, is it different than other content such as music, writings, photos and videos?

To me it seems to be different, but maybe I am wrong.

On their website, Kevin and Genevieve state that they know people will use their waypoints to plan hiking trips, so there seems to be no question about them being ok with this.

I see a big difference between waypoints themselves. I just sent Harald some KML files of routes I marked in the San Javier area. This, where I sat at a computer and spent two or three hours studying Google Earth images to plan a hopeful future route I would like to hike. Contrast that with K&G's marked routes, where they have actually marked each waypoint at that given location, on the ground. The time and effort to make a 'ground verified' waypoint route is considerably different than that involved in marking a hoped for future route at a computer screen.

While they may not be as visually compelling as a photograph to some observers, I believe K&G's GPS waypoints do represent an equal achievement.

David K - 2-18-2025 at 09:20 AM