BajaNomad - Chicken and egg thing

Chicken and egg thing

Anonymous - 5-1-2005 at 07:25 AM

I am posting this as ?Anonymous? not to hide my identity but to protect folks who have been very nice to me.
On my last trip to the mid-riff area my buddies and I were driving homeward and as happens during the long drive home it gets quiet in the car as people think about the good times that just happened and the working weeks ahead. During one of the long silences someone asks: ?What comes first, Baja or alcoholism?? . After the guffaws and spit-takes, a fairly serious discussion took place ? and it stills haunts me a little.
So many people that have retired to Baja just don?t seem to do any of the things that attracted them there in the first place ? they just start drinking about noon and don?t quit until bed time ? day after day after day. Is it simply because that is the habit from vacationing that carries over into retirement, is it boredom, is it a feeling of disconnect from the people around you (locals) because you never really learned the language or you are a shy person to begin with, or was drinking too important to you always and now there is nothing to get in the way (work, family etc), does Baja attract people who want to ?hide-out?? What?s the deal?
I am particularly concerned because I will be soon retiring and see myself turning into one of these kinds of retirees and wish to avoid it while still enjoying that first cold beer when we turn off the main road???..

comitan - 5-1-2005 at 07:56 AM

Its quite simple you set the rules in your life, if you decide to bury all of the things that bother you in alchohol, Then I would say your just biding your time for the final day, with no other accomplishments.

I have a theory

Ken Bondy - 5-1-2005 at 08:11 AM

Most of my trips to Baja have been in my own private aircraft. We would often take friends with us, of course, and it was interesting to observe their reactions. Our favorite places were San Francisquito and Punta Pescadero. From our departure airport (Van Nuys) we could be in San Francisquito in less than four hours, in Pescadero in less than eight. Talk about cultural shock!! To be transported from the freeways and pace of LA to the beaches of Baja in a few hours was often like an explosion for our guests. Normal people literally went crazy. We watched many a drunken first night where the cervezas flowed too much and the heads hurt too much the next day. The "first night" syndrome, we would call it. It had happened to us in our first years of coming down, but eventually it passed as we got to know what to expect, and we started pacing ourselves and behaving more calmly on that "first night". Plus we didn't want to pay the price of losing the second day to a massive hangover. As our guests made more trips with us, we noticed the change in them too, except for the ones in which drinking itself was the important thing, regardless of the setting. So, while I have never lived in Baja for an extended time, my theory is that Baja itself wouldn't influence the eventual lifestyle to any great degree. People who retire in Baja will do about the same thing they would be doing if they retired anywhere else. Just my $0.02.

++Ken++

bajagrouper - 5-1-2005 at 08:28 AM

Well my dos centavos: Baja came first, then a guy with a gallon of red and a gallon of white...paint, he started painting every store with the Tecate logo,he then painted every little restaurant with the same logo...meanwhile his brother was putting up billboards with beautiful se?oritas selling tequila and rum,everywhere you look in Mexico...booze is cheep and plentyful...cheers

in baja beer tastes more like water...

eetdrt88 - 5-1-2005 at 09:59 AM

its easy to forget whats important...

eetdrt88 - 5-1-2005 at 10:03 AM

which of couse is staying drunk :lol:

Bruce R Leech - 5-1-2005 at 10:13 AM

your right I have noticed this in our aria. I think allot of the people that retire here do so because they cant afford to where they come from. so they come here and drink them selves to death. some people go north to the US to git 4 or 5 bypass surgery's and come back here and start drinking more than ever. dose that make any kind of sense? If you like adventure better than television and this is really where you want to be you will be OK. I drink about 30 beers a year and really don't enjoy them that much.But git me in to the mountains hiking and I'm in heaven.

TMW - 5-1-2005 at 10:15 AM

This is a very interesting topic. A couple of years ago this topic came up between my two older and retired brothers and I. One brother who has traveled a great deal in Baja since the mid 60s believes that most retirees to Baja become drunks if they aren't already. He thinks it's because they tire of what attracted them there to begin with, fishing, camping , exploring, solitude, etc. etc. He by the way quit drinking about 10 years ago. My oldest brother stays very busy in the midwest where he lives and drinks very little. I on the other hand have a drink, usually two or three, every evening when I get home from work and I enjoy it. I drink more when I'm in Baja and I've started to think about it more as I reach retirement age and what could happen.

I would be interested in anyone who quit after moving to Baja and why they quit.

Anonymous - 5-1-2005 at 10:54 AM

Last year when i was in Santa Rosalia I had to use the ATM at the Banamex in town,standing on the sidewalk in front of the ATM a gentelman in his mid thirtys stood holding a coffee size can with a card attached...after completing my business I asked what he was collecting for,he stated it was for a AA type place, I asked if it was for gringos and he replyed it was for everyone and at this time it was about 50/50 locals and gringos...que lastima

P.S. during the month I was in Baja,from TJ to Cabo it was the only place I saw someone with their hand out(he did not ask,just stood there),,I live in Northern California and every Safeway,Target and K-Mart has someone out in front begging for one thing or another....Bajagrouper

JESSE - 5-1-2005 at 12:20 PM

Yes, its fairly easy to just get lost on 100% relaxation and waste your time away in margaritaville, even for young people, not just retirees. I think it all depends on what you want, if your like those old indians that walked to the mountains into a cave to die, then go ahead and drink the days away and wait to die, but if you arent into slow-mo suicide, theres plenty of things to do like start a business, get involved in some sort of charity, or heck, writte a book or two or something.

A very interesting thread...

vgabndo - 5-1-2005 at 01:34 PM

As an, almost 100%, sober "recovering alcoholic" who in the past drank himself literally to death's door on two occasions, and who once owned a saloon, I have some ideas.

First, like the government's war on terror, the war on drugs attacked the wrong enemy. Alcohol and tobacco kill more people, users and the innocent, by a factor of at least 100, than all the street drugs together. You can buy them on any street corner. They have both been glorified by our culture. It took a LONG time to eliminate the "three martini lunch" from America's business climate. We have forgotten that alcohol IS a killer drug.

Secondly, I see something of a comparison with what I, as a Californian, felt the first time I lived and worked in the deep South. There was practically no social price at all to be paid for the most abject levels of ignorance, illiteracy, racism, sexism, and homophobia. They just seemed to accept those people as "good old boys". Similarly, I feel that our Mexican hosts have come to expect that a large percentage of their northern guests are going to be loud, obnoxious drunks, and there is little stigma attached which would suggest to the offenders that they change their conduct.

On this site, there are a number of regular contributors who find that alcohol and getting drunk are a major part of their lives. They think nothing of it, and in fact take it as a point of pride. I don't think they realize how obvious they are to those here on this board who have come to an understanding of the seriousness of that kind of drug use.

It gets down to quality of life, doesn't it? Every individual has the choice to get up in the morning crisp and clear-headed and stay that way all day, or...not. Most drugs it seems, like membership in religious cults, are very attractive to people who just have too much trouble handling the reality of day to day life.

So long as the abuser doesn't harm anyone else by their conduct, everyone should have the right to get high and/or kill themselves any way they choose.

The problem, in my not so humble opinion, is that the abuse almost never goes on without the harm. It is hard work to live straight and clean ANYWHERE.

I agree with u vgabndo

yankeeirishman - 5-1-2005 at 01:44 PM

"So long as the abuser doesn't harm anyone else by their conduct, everyone should have the right to get high and/or kill themselves any way they choose".

Except for the above quote. I would hate to have my kids to watch a drunk everyday (like a neighbor on his/her porch)...thinking "that's okay" and to proceed with the same mentality in life. There can be harm from drunken or drugged actions of one?from a distance. No offense to your letter Mr. vgabndo.

hey jesse...

eetdrt88 - 5-1-2005 at 02:23 PM

i couldnt agree with you more,what you do in baja or anywhere depends upon what level you want to be involved with that place and particular situation....when i'm fishing or at the beach i'm always having a few beers,but i'm quickly learning theres so much more to baja than just those things....starting off with the people and the culture as well as the wealth and abundance of raw nature..............you know i've taken alot of baja trips where i've brought people down for their first time and of course the lack of rules mixed with the natural beauty of the place gets them in a partying mood but evn the people that spent half the trip drunk still came away with some unbeleivable memories and some real food for thought

turtleandtoad - 5-1-2005 at 03:23 PM

This is slightly off subject but I had to pass it on. While in San Jose Del Cabo during some kind of festival I came across a young man in the square with a yellow shirt and a donation can. He was collecting for the Mexican version of Teen Al Anon! I wasn't even aware there was a problem in this area.

An hour of conversation with this young man and perusal of the literature he had was a real eye opener! It's not just the Gringo's on the Baja that have drug/alcahol problems, it's also the mexican teenager. And apparently for the same reasons and in the US; peer pressure, lack of parental supervision, and boredom. As a recovering alcoholic myself, this young man's story about how he ended up in the gutter and was rescued by this group was very familiar. From what he told me, the problem among the teenagers in Baja Sur is rampart!

I can't remember the name of the group but if anyone runs across it, please donate as they don't get any support from the government or any church.

Turtle,

eetdrt88 - 5-1-2005 at 04:02 PM

you are actually quite accurate when you say that the problem among the teenagers is "rampant",one of my nieghbors is this teenage kid who was born in cabo but has lived a large part of his life up here in so.cal,last summer he told me he was goin back to cabo to live with his mom......i saw him about 5 months later up here and he looked pretty wrecked,the stories he told me of the drug problem(mainly crystal meth)in cabo among the local kids were pretty bad.... :no:

lizard lips - 5-1-2005 at 04:58 PM

It really is a shame to see someone who had just retired and moves to Baja and drinks themselves to death within a year or 2. I see it all the time. I take a drink once in awhile and have done so for years but never will let the bottle dictate what will happen to me. Everyone is different. I suggest smoke a joint if the stress gets to you too much!

Yankee

vgabndo - 5-1-2005 at 05:05 PM

No offense taken. I grew up in the back seat of a closed car with both of my parents sucking on cigarettes. I got the back of my old man's hand for ANY lip. Who knows how much damage was done "second hand". I don't remember how many times I've had pneumonia. Watching his abusive alcoholism helped me to know I REALLY didn't want to go down that road. With the right coaching, seeing the weak for what they are can make kids stronger.

The question was does Baja drive you to drink?

Gypsy Jan - 5-1-2005 at 08:40 PM

I believe the answer is, "No, Hell No!"

But, Baja is full of empty open spaces that probably force people from the noise and distraction filled north to confront themselves in the quiet.

If they don't want to talk to their essence, they drink to drown out the voices in their head.

Baja is also filled with indigenous drunks and druggies; the Mexican macho culture colliding with an inability to get a good paying job to support the family and the resulting societal/monetary pressures are crushing.

I don't have any answers, but I do know that the CRREAD rehabilition program, based on strict AA Twelve-steps philosophy is helping more than 5,000 interns in forty-three facilities over Baja and central Mexico every day.

CRREAD operates on a wing and a prayer; there is no significant institutional or governmental support for them, but they will take in any legal resident of Mexico, regardless of ability to pay.

yankeeirishman - 5-1-2005 at 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
No offense taken. I grew up in the back seat of a closed car with both of my parents sucking on cigarettes. I got the back of my old man's hand for ANY lip. Who knows how much damage was done "second hand". I don't remember how many times I've had pneumonia. Watching his abusive alcoholism helped me to know I REALLY didn't want to go down that road. With the right coaching, seeing the weak for what they are can make kids stronger.

My hat is off to you Sir! Wise man of wise words. Oh...yeah...I know what that lip response was too :mad:

Mexitron - 5-1-2005 at 10:18 PM

Well, personally, I don't drink nearly as much as I'd like too. But Baja seems to seduce me into it....luckily that's only 2 or 3 weeks a year.....probably shouldn't move there though ..... :lol:

turtleandtoad - 5-2-2005 at 06:20 AM

Thanks Gypsy Jan,
CRREAD was the group that that young man was affiliated with. I knew I'd recognize it if I saw it.

Not that cheap

Arthur - 5-2-2005 at 03:29 PM

Great thread, but that comment about alcohol being plentiful and cheap is only half-true anymore from what I've seen. -- Leaving beer out, I guess.

Since tequila became so popular and the price shot up I pretty much stopped drinking it. Rum's an acceptable (nothing more) substitute, but the prices I just saw for rum in Mexicali were nothing to write home about. Kahlua's the only thing that I see a real price difference compared to the states. Fortunately, I like Black Russians, but then vodka's no big bargain because it's not indigenous.

I don't plan to veg out in Baja with a bottle in my hand, but the thought of not liking to hike those canyons anymore scares me. I'm going to start a new thread on that, though.

jrbaja - 5-2-2005 at 03:33 PM

Please don't Arthur.

This is a very "sore" subject for many of us on here!

bufeo - 5-2-2005 at 04:02 PM

Just a comment on the question ?What comes first, Baja or alcoholism?? I don't think one follows the other or vice versa. I've been retired since 1995, been going to Baja since the '60s, and don't drink alcohol anymore now than I did before I retired. Possibly even less.

(But, BajaNomad, are those Google? ads at the top of this thread automatic? I've noticed how the ads often follow the subject of the thread. Clever.)

[Edited on 5-2-2005 by bufeo]

Packoderm - 5-2-2005 at 04:05 PM

Aguardiente is cheap enough.

Cincodemayo - 5-2-2005 at 04:34 PM

I agree that beer is like agua in Mexico....Rehydrate....beer....rehydrate...beer....beer...
Had plenty Mezcal and tokillya in the younger days.