BajaNomad - and Baja speaketh unto us:

and Baja speaketh unto us:

Sharksbaja - 9-9-2005 at 12:10 PM

Cometh into my land. Seek refuge and solace in my domain and inherit the spiritual understanding. Deliver back graciously and thou hast completed the circle of true friends.

a Baja Nomad :cool:

The squarecircle - 9-9-2005 at 02:06 PM

Greetings; >>>>> Having experienced your comfort, nourishment and intellectual titilation, an opportunity of reciprocation approaches to share my meager knowledge of that local south of El Barril. What say you about an Oct. slot. >>>>> Best regards, sq.

bajaden - 9-9-2005 at 02:43 PM

I worship at the altar of Sharky. The true antiJr. Just kidding Jr.

gold coins for all today

Sharksbaja - 9-9-2005 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaden
I worship at the altar of Sharky. The true antiJr. Just kidding Jr.

Den, does he complete the circle?

------

SqCircle: the commitment of a finite date looms uncertain. Sorrow is mine to suffer for sure.

Thanks for the sincere effort. Please keep me abreast, you never know, I AM A NOMAD after all. Families like teeth can be unpredictable. Maybe and hopefully, another time. :yes:

Corky

rpleger - 9-9-2005 at 04:06 PM

?What?

David K - 9-9-2005 at 04:51 PM

Squarecircle: Los Corrales and beyond?

The squarecircle - 9-10-2005 at 12:07 AM

Greetings David & All; >>>>>> YES, Los Corrales and beyond including La Sirena mine, El Venado, La Fortuna, La Junta, San Miguel thru and across the 28* 00'. Rancho Santa Barbara on the return which is a 'must see' . Hope you can go! >>>>>> Best Regards, sq.

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2005 at 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The squarecircle
Greetings David & All; >>>>>> YES, Los Corrales and beyond including La Sirena mine, El Venado, La Fortuna, La Junta, San Miguel thru and across the 28* 00'. Rancho Santa Barbara on the return which is a 'must see' . Hope you can go! >>>>>> Best Regards, sq.

Gee Roy, did I miss something? :?:

Remember what you told me? Please don't make public GPS data from your trip. Some places demand less traffic.

Suerte, Corky

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Sharksbaja]

The squarecircle - 9-10-2005 at 01:22 AM

Greetings again Corky; >>>>>>I am sorry to acknowledge a temporary morbidly profuse oral discharge about trip data here, but for now only the shadow knows of when this outing may happen and no GPS info will gush from me on this. >>>>>> Best Regards, sq.

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2005 at 01:38 AM

Spoken like a true Nomad, thanx!

David K - 9-10-2005 at 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

Gee Roy, did I miss something? :?:

Remember what you told me? Please don't make public GPS data from your trip. Some places demand less traffic.

Suerte, Corky

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Sharksbaja]

Hola Sharks (Corky? We have two Corkys on Nomad!),

I am wondering why you think that a GPS waypoint brings in more people than a published milage reading?
As fewer people have GPS than odometers to use for navigation, I do not understand the logic.

To me, a GPS waypoint is an exact location whereas an odometer reading is approximate since no two cars seem to have the same or correct odometer. Plus, detours and spinning tires in sand will throw off an odometer reading.

With GPS, there is no guessing or getting lost, so people get to there destination faster and out of the area quicker...

Kacey Smith in her Baja GPS guide has her San Francisquito to San Ignacio ride (through that area) already published and I don't think more Nomads have gone that far into Baja than would anyway, they just were able to get to a destination quicker... Nomads are good people anyway, we don't paint graffiti on things (we better not!)...

So, if a travel guide says drive 13.6 miles from Rancho X... Or, if one adds: go to waypoint 29-09.76', 113-XX.XX', how does that cause more traffic to any place? Why would you write about a cool place to visit to your Nomad brothers and sisters, but not want any of them to see it too? But the point is, if you are going to give directions to a place, then by adding a GPS waypoint, you don't cause any more people to go there than if you left it out. It just reduces or eliminates the chance of them getting lost, if they have a GPS .... maybe even save a life!

Saludos,
David

bajaden - 9-10-2005 at 11:38 AM

I think I'm lost again. Help me Bruce..........

bajaden - 9-10-2005 at 11:40 AM

The battries are dead in my GPS. I can't find the damm light switch.

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2005 at 12:15 PM

David wrote:
"Why would you write about a cool place to visit to your Nomad brothers and sisters, but not want any of them to see it too? But the point is, if you are going to give directions to a place, then by adding a GPS waypoint, you don't cause any more people to go there than if you left it out."

Do you believe that?

----
I never said I did not want people to visit or see these places.

I said "please don't post the GPS data from the trip"

Odometer readings? Cmon, how many of these way out places have accurate or any odometer readings.

Why can't you ask privately for the waypoints for someone elses backyard?

You don't get it David. Would you post the coordinates for YOUR BACKYARD, say, if it were in a pristine area.

Would it not bother you if a Mexican discovered and posted it and all his off-road buddies came and turned your property into a thoroughfare. I think it would.

Where do you draw the line? Think from another point of view......... maybe by looking north.

Suppose you were a local rancher. Maybe they don't want caravans of gringos opening private gates, trespassing in some cases and just plain opening up an area to hoards of off-roaders because you found the hidden road(that the locals have kept secret) or passage.
I do like the off-road excitement and the thrill of discovery but why do you want to deminish that part by leading people by the hand(posting way-points) and discribing everything in complete detail.
I disagree that all of Baja should be open to thousands of eager people simply because YOU did it and registered the waypoints for others to follow.

Some things are best kept quiet don't you think, or at least not posted for the whole world to see.
You and others are very resourceful and I doubt a Nomad such as yourself would have trouble gleaning the info from others.

Just my opinion David, but since this private discussion did not include you originally, I wonder how you knew?

Did I miss something again? :?:

Corky

comitan - 9-10-2005 at 12:26 PM

Just my 10cents I don't think that posting GPS points or mileage has near as much to do with whether people are going to these pristine areas as much as accessability, meaning roads, road conitions. I also think that David K, has the right to post mileages, way points, gas mileage and even brag about his new pickup. I know I sure would if I could afford one.

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2005 at 12:28 PM

to yer backyard?

David K - 9-10-2005 at 12:44 PM

How I knew what? I was responding to what you posted right here in this thread.

I do not post waypoints to anyone's private rancho back yard... don't assume, look at my trip reports or my GPS website linked in VivaBaja.com

Do you have any Baja guidebooks? They use odometer readings to tell people how to get somewhere. The newest ones also have GPS added. No private backyards or such are listed in my reports or in these already published guidebooks.

Mexico wants Americans to go to Baja, they spend a lot to invite us south. So, I don't see a problem with any Baja travel writers, doing just that. Thousands? Baja Nomad is not that big, and only a small per centage go off road into Baja... a smaller number still will venture into a place I write about... Reading about these far out places is satisfaction enough for many.

For example, very little was published about the road to Mision Santa Maria and beyond. Jim Hunter's book 'Offbeat Baja' was the best, but that was almost 30 years ago... When I was there in 2003, making notes and GPS, a Jeep club of about 20 rigs drove in. They didn't go there because of my GPS postings (as I hadn't made them yet)! In fact, none ID'd themselves as Nomads or Amigos de Baja.

So, what gets published here on Nomad for the interest of the hyper Baja lover is not going to have some giant destructive effect... perhaps none at all.

I would rather find another Baja Nomad in a remote place than some Jeep club who may be thier first trip into Baja and doesn't have the passion that we Nomads have... Would you agree?

[Edited on 9-10-2005 by David K]

Sharksbaja - 9-10-2005 at 01:01 PM

:lol:

But what if the Jeep club is from Baja.net

oops, same folks.

I am just trying to think like a rancher, who all of a sudden, has a continous stream of travelers goin' through.

I would actually hope to not see anyone, if that was relevant.

Is it impossible to think from another standpoint, or shall I say "waypoint"?

David K - 9-10-2005 at 09:26 PM

Many of these remote places where Mexicans live might possibly have an economic boon if visitors went there. Keeping a small village secret so only you can enjoy it or only you could bring supplies to them to look like the big white hero is not doing them a favor.

Naturally, if they requested their location not be published, that would be honored by me. I do not think a GPS waypoint on Baja Nomad (or anywhere else) will magically bring hords of undesireble people in from Baja.net or anywhere else, as you said.

Also, FYI... I do not publish waypoints to any place someone has shown me or given to me, if they requested I not. There are places shared me by friends here and I did not provide the GPS... despite what you may have been told... Onyx springs near Gonzaga, Las Tinajitas near San Borja, and Real de Santa Ana near San Antonio BCS are three examples of places I have photos of in my web site, but no GPS or other milages to.

I privately gave Tim (TimsBaja.com) the directions to the onyx springs and he also respected the original request to not give exact directions... That is what I ask if any Nomad asks for directions to such places.

There are no fragile sites that are unknown to the outside world that I gave GPS for. All the mission sites are already well known and books even have the GPS for all of them (Ed Vernon's and Dave Werschkul's).

I think that is all I have to say and should calm your fears that Nomads are waiting with GPS in hand to destroy some prestine site that you think nobody else should go to. This web site is primarily designed to answer travel questions about Baja... then to exchange travel stories... That's what I enjoy doing here. If we were to honor some code of silence, then this would be a pretty boring site, you think?

No way Jose, I mean DK

Sharksbaja - 9-11-2005 at 12:39 AM

My lord you sure are defensive.

David,
what the hell is this about :

"Many of these remote places where Mexicans live might possibly have an economic boon if visitors went there. Keeping a small village secret so only you can enjoy it or only you could bring supplies to them to look like the big white hero is not doing them a favor".

You are so full of doo-doo. So is your rude inuendo.
You must be hallucinating or having a flash-back.
I am not JR, comprende?
----------
You are way off base David. Can't you postulate better than this.
You certainly don't know me or any of my motivations so don't pretend to. How dare you assume such barderdash.

Economic boon? Oh, like a coastal golf course, tire repair?? Put em all to work for you.

How can you make statements like:
"Naturally, if they requested their location not be published, that would be honored by me. I do not think a GPS waypoint on Baja Nomad (or anywhere else) will magically bring hords of undesireble people in from Baja.net or anywhere else, as you said.

and

" FYI... I do not publish waypoints to any place someone has shown me or given to me, if they requested I not. There are places shared me by friends here and I did not provide the GPS... despite what you may have been told...
------------
So your answer to my original post is....... Yes, some places should remain unpublished.

You can't have your cake and eat it too David.

What are you saying? My request on the other post is not legit?
Are YOU in charge of what other Nomads do w/ their trip info?I never said anywhere that you did damage unto the land or ruins or?

Man, what has got into yer head? Slow down David.
You are reading between the lines here. Probably cause you weren't privy in the first go round.

Exactly who are "they" and what makes you think "they" would have any idea you,or anyone else for that matter, publicly posts GPS data on private property for the public or private use of others unknown to them.

I must interject that your reasons for doing so are for others private or public use, are they not?

I don't think it's magic that brings in more & more folks.

It's better and better roads that brings Costco and Wal-Marts. Right Cabo?

Why do you think repetitive notions will not encourage others to follow? Isn't that what you are all about? A trailbrazing leader of sorts?
Thats' what you've instilled in me.
It's a shame you don't understand me better. Your evaluation could not be farther off.
When I conjured up this post, YOU were not part of it. You did that yourself.

It's folks as yourself pretending to be doing Mexicans a justice by bringing in what, people to by buy Margaritas and play golf.
You bet I am exaggerating as much as you are in denial thinking everyone wants you traversing their property and making (GPS)posts that thousands of people may see.

Whats' boring is your profound stance as a person who "knows" what's good for the isolated Mexican people.

Most of all tho David..........you completely missed the point. Which was?

why are people from oregon so cranky???

eetdrt88 - 9-11-2005 at 09:48 AM

:lol:

just kidding,i'm glad to see all the bickering didnt end just because jr is gone....this forum starts getting weird when everyone gets along too well...oh and btw i still havent quite figured out what you guys are arguing about,out of the way and hard to get to places will always be found by those few adventure seeking types whether you give them gps or exact directions or whatever...the rest wont go there at all even if you offered to pay them to go,they simply dont want to because they would rather go somewhere with easier access

David K - 9-11-2005 at 10:25 AM

Sharks, if you think I don't understand you...well, by suggesting I promote Baja for golfers and alcoholics you REALLY don't understand me!

A GPS is just a device for noting where you are, or where you have been. It doesn't bring in MORE people anymore than a map or odometer reading does! There are excellent maps covering ALL of Baja and most main roads are documented in guidebooks. GPS receivers are NOT evil, people who trespass or paint grafitti are...

Baja is a beautiful place! The government ... and people there I have met WANT more Americans there. I know that more Americans are going rather I write travel articles or not, so I would hope that by showing the beauty of these isolated places are best kept beautiful, I hope to instill that appreciation.

The more people who fall in love with Baja the better it is for Baja. People who don't learn to appreciate the peninsula will not respect it or preserve it. My web site, trip reports, photos are designed to get people to fall in love with remote Baja, if they already do not. You will find very little about resorts, hotels, Cabo, golf in VivaBaja.com! It is about OFF PAVEMENT exploring by foot or 4X4... and that in itself is a big limiter to who is interested in what I write about.

The Baja missions are all known, but because only a few visited some of them, those more remote sites fell into disrepair. Locals saw them as 'ruins' rather than historic sites and either plowed them under or used the bricks for building new ranch homes instead of preserving the sites.

Now, with hightened interest by tourists (and locals), the sites are more valuable left untouched ... they have value, they attract tourists... The locals and government is learning to preserve and even rebuild the sites.

That has been the hope of Jack Swords and myself in publishing the mission photos and GPS of all mission and visita sites before any more disappear. Academicanachist, Kevin in Ok, and Ed Vernon have also contributed photos and GPS. If only a few knows it's there, then only a few will care what happens to it!

Please enjoy the mission photos and details at http://vivabaja.com/bajamissions

Now, please have a nice Sunday...

Sharksbaja - 9-11-2005 at 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Sharks, if you think I don't understand you...well, by suggesting I promote Baja for golfers and alcoholics you REALLY don't understand me!

Now, please have a nice Sunday...

Correctomundo David, I said that to get your attention. Sort of like how you got mine.

You don't like being misrepresented and neither do I so please don't do that to me. Where you came up with that stuff is beyond me.

I still want you to think about waypoint publishing while on private property.

Remember, you wouldn't like someone posting the coordinates to your home and some other "personal" places.
Would you?
------

Eet.....
I only get rattled when people assume and post fallicies about my life.

Changing the context of a post to suit yer needs kinda bugs me also. I guess I'm just a rogue Nomad. :lol:

Is that redundant?

You are right about the future DK. It's the heightened interest that brings em in, eventually with golf clubs.

But really, I was trying to exact an opinion from others , not force anything on anyone. Did I?

Getting harder and harder to post independant expressions w/o someone getting irked.

Have a good life........ :cool:

bajaden - 9-14-2005 at 12:21 AM

Well here I'am coming in late again. Sorry I wasn't here for the original blood letting. Thats the most I've seen you get your dander up Sharky. Rightfully so I must add. DK's heart is in the right place, but I think he's been in too many battles with Jr. Its made him a bit sensitive. I think if he goes back and reads all the posts by you and others and doesn't take them personal he'll see things differntly. Then again, I can't speak for you
David. Nor would I want to. I enjoy your reports and pictures, and I hope they continue. I think the only thing Sharks was trying to do was provoke thought about a subject, that for the most part has flown under the radar. I don't think it was aimed at anyone.
I learned a long time ago, that when I get angry with someone, its my problem not theirs. Its not their fault that they pushed my button. You can step into a hole, or walk around it. Your choice my friend, your choice.......

Phil S - 9-14-2005 at 11:27 AM

Not all Oregonians are cranky. And having reread this subject couple times looking for how Sharksbaja would react, I'm at a loss as to how you could interpret where David was coming from. Though I've not met you yet (time is approaching though) and having read most of your posts in the past, a JR you definitely aren't, and absolutely not a 'cranky' Oregonian. Who the heck could be cranky living at Newport Oregon!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And then have one of the 'better' restaurants on the Oregon coast at the same time (I'm told the food is excellent) Lean back, take a deep breath, both of you, and lets move on.

Sharksbaja - 9-14-2005 at 11:46 AM

Can't we just all get along?? :lol:

Hell, if you were born on EXACTLY the same day as JR.......... you might understand better. It's a "bull" thing! :lol:

To be honest Phil, simple statements like:

"Many of these remote places where Mexicans live might possibly have an economic boon if visitors went there. Keeping a small village secret so only you can enjoy it or only you could bring supplies to them to look like the big white hero is not doing them a favor."

would rattle your cage too if there was absolutely no basis for printing it.

That's all. Thanks for asking.

Rest assured, I am the same in real life.