BajaNomad - Need help with some words

Need help with some words

Taco de Baja - 11-10-2005 at 03:28 PM

I have some old maps (mid 1800's) of the Santa Paula area in CA and am trying to determine the translation for some of the words.

"Saujon Y Lindero" I know "lindero" is edge and relates to the edge of the land grant.....I just can't determine what a "Saujon" is.

"Saujonito" written next to a stream

"Abrevadero" ...also written as .. "Abrevadera" It appears to indicate a bench above a creek?
????rough translation "area above the stream crossing"...????

"venega" or "veniga" this is next to a drawing that looks like a spring and swamp. and the letters are definately is not "Cienaga" not enough of them.

Could be that I am not reading the handwriting correctly, as come of the letters are hard to tell apart like v's and r's
Thanks

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by Taco de Baja]

Marinero - 11-10-2005 at 03:36 PM

Abrevadero seems to mean "drinking trough", although I have never heard of it.

bufeo - 11-10-2005 at 04:46 PM

Taco,

You mention "handwriting". Is there a chance that you can scan the words and then post? A few more sets of eyes looking at a word may see letters appear differently. Having been in the profession of translating (Czech and French) at one time, I know the difficulty of dicyphering handwritten lines.

PS (on edit): I think, as already mentioned, that abrevadero does mean water trough. There's a old trough up on the Salisbury Potrero (Los Padres NF) that is designated as an abrevadero on one of my old maps.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by bufeo]

Taco de Baja - 11-10-2005 at 05:06 PM

I'll post them soon, good idea.
They are already scanned, I just will need to put them over on photobucket after cutting and pasting the words in question. May take a few days though.

Thanks for the help

Taco de Baja - 11-11-2005 at 09:32 AM

I do not know the date of #1 mid 1800 though.

#2-8 are form a map dated Feb 3, 1853

These maps are Courtesy of The Bancroft Library
University of California, Berkeley.

Maybe more eyes can read it differently. Also, don't discount spelling errors #8 "Syerra" may be "Sierra".

Also, words may be old-fashioned i.e. "Legue" (in #8) is of course a "League" equal to 5,000 "Varas" or about 3 miles, the distance a person can walk in an hour.

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[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Taco de Baja]

bajajudy - 11-11-2005 at 09:52 AM

#3 Looks like a T not an S...Tanjon or taujou

#2 since the v is not capitalized maybe it starts with an O

#6 is probably pozitas....little wells

#7 The double letters look more like X than R

Thats my take on those
I love stuff like this, thanks for sharing.

elizabeth - 11-11-2005 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

"Saujon Y Lindero" I know "lindero" is edge and relates to the edge of the land grant.....I just can't determine what a "Saujon" is.

"Saujonito" written next to a stream

"venega" or "veniga" this is next to a drawing that looks like a spring and swamp. and the letters are definately is not "Cienaga" not enough of them.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by Taco de Baja]

Here are some thoughts...could suajon be a variant of sauce meaning willow...seems like the written next to a stream could support that.

Maybe veniga is venida, which can mean an onrush of water...maybe an archaic reference to a spring?

Taco de Baja - 11-11-2005 at 10:10 AM

the xx or rr in #7 looked similar to the writing for "arroyo" on another map, which is why I assumed it may be a "rr" instead of "xx".....

in #2 the O with a squiggle next to it may represent a spring and the dark area a swamp.

Good call on the "Pozitas"

Also I went with "Saujon" since there was a "saujonito" on teh same map.

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Taco de Baja]

Braulio - 11-16-2005 at 08:57 AM

I don't know if this will help or not - it seems like the main problem here is just getting the spelling - but you can access old editions of the DRAE online going back to the 1700s - check out:

http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUILoginNtlle

...and then click on "NTLLE" and then "aceptar" - and then "search" icon - or "realizacion de consultas" icon at the upper left.

or go to :

http://www.rae.es/

and click on "Diccionarions Acad?micos" and follow the instructions (spanish unfortunately).

For example the word abrevadero is a watering place for cattle - iactually when I ran that one there was the word "parage" (which later became "paraje" apparently) as part of the definition - so I had to go back and run parage through - it changed back in the 1700s.

Unfortunately there's no advanced search feature to search alternate spellings.

You can just leave the diccionario field at "todos" and search all editions at once.

When I have time I'll run some alternate spellings through on some of the other words.

[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]

[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]

[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]

bad link

richard nauman - 11-16-2005 at 09:04 AM

Hey - cool thread everyone but I can't get Braulio's link to work.
RN

Braulio - 11-16-2005 at 09:12 AM

Richard - I edited it - hopefully it works now.

Braulio - 11-28-2005 at 12:30 PM

The "saujon" might be "zanjon" which comes from "zanja". Turning the u in to a n might not be that much of a stretch.

A zanja is either a ditch (manmade) or natural arroyo type deal.

Taco de Baja - 11-28-2005 at 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Braulio
The "saujon" might be "zanjon" which comes from "zanja". Turning the u in to a n might not be that much of a stretch.

A zanja is either a ditch (manmade) or natural arroyo type deal.

I like it! :yes:

Makes some sense too, as a zanja or a zanj?n (trench/ditch) would make a good property line. Hence, "Sanjon Y Lindero" And the other one "Sanjonito" is coming out of a canyon.....so that fits too. Maybe the cartographer, just had spelling issues. :lol:

Thanks for all the help people!

[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Taco de Baja]

bugdude - 11-28-2005 at 06:27 PM

Assuming the map was written and notated by the same person:

#2. cienega

#3/#4. The first letter in #3 looks like a "T" - compare with first letter in #4, which looks like an "S"; notice the horizontal bar at top of first letter in#3 and #4 hooks to the right at the top.

#6. I don't think the third letter is an "R". Compare with the "R"s in "tierra" of #5. There is a difference in the way they are written.

#7. Texxitor???

#8. Sierra

Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map?

[Edited on 11/12/2005 by bugdude]

Braulio - 11-28-2005 at 06:29 PM

Yeah - maybe the cartographer was a distant relation of Oso.

I don't like the gender part - should be zanjonita or zanjoncita - but who's to say the last letter (of sanjonit-) isn't really an "a".

Taco de Baja - 12-2-2005 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bugdude
Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map?

I was able to read "Oro" and the big X just fine.....So I did not include that portion of the map

bugdude - 12-2-2005 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taco de Baja

Quote:

Originally posted by bugdude
Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map?

I was able to read "Oro" and the big X just fine.....So I did not include that portion of the map

Oso - 12-3-2005 at 05:12 PM

Actually it was a description of Braulio and it said "sangron". :biggrin:

Arktos - 12-17-2005 at 02:41 PM

My opinion

My friend Oso, willbe traduce for you

Arturo Ortega
www.yamecayoelveinte.com

****************
1.- Abrevadero: Lugar en el que llevaban a beber a los animales. Como comentario, aqu? en Monterrey M?xico, cuando vamos a un lugar a comprar cerveza, jocosamente decimos: "vamos al abrevadero".

2.-Cienega (lugar con lodo)

3.- a)Sanjon: "Zanj?n" que es otra forma de decir "zanja".
b).- Lindero: L?mite entre dos terrenos

4.- Sanjonito. Si "Sanjon" era una "zanja". Sanjonito debi? ser una "zanja peque?a".

5.- Tierra de siembra: Parcela.

6.-Pozitos: Pozos para extraer agua.

7.-?????????????

8.- Sierra (escala de una legua)

Arktos - 12-17-2005 at 02:47 PM

?Yes! , No. 7:

Serritos (Cerritos) Cerros peque?os, lomitas

Oso - 12-17-2005 at 04:37 PM

"Arktos" is my good friend Arturo Ortega Moran from Monterrey who is a much greater authority on "olde" Spanish than any of us here. He has been on hiatus from publishing his "Hasta que me cayo el veinte" book and "Por Que Decimos Lo Que Decimos" column in certain Spanish language newspapers and I kinda dropped my translations etc. on Baja.net when it was apparent there were only about 3 people interested.

Arturo has revamped his website which is looking good and maybe he may be about to get back into publishing.

http://www.yamecayoelveinte.com/cayo20/index.html

I think those who are really interested in these old maps can probably understand what Arturo is saying here, but if translation is really needed I'll give it a shot later on.

[Edited on 12-18-2005 by Oso]

Taco de Baja - 12-24-2005 at 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arktos
My opinion

My friend Oso, willbe traduce for you

Arturo Ortega
www.yamecayoelveinte.com

****************
1.- Abrevadero: Lugar en el que llevaban a beber a los animales. Como comentario, aqu? en Monterrey M?xico, cuando vamos a un lugar a comprar cerveza, jocosamente decimos: "vamos al abrevadero".

2.-Cienega (lugar con lodo)

3.- a)Sanjon: "Zanj?n" que es otra forma de decir "zanja".
b).- Lindero: L?mite entre dos terrenos

4.- Sanjonito. Si "Sanjon" era una "zanja". Sanjonito debi? ser una "zanja peque?a".

5.- Tierra de siembra: Parcela.

6.-Pozitos: Pozos para extraer agua.

7.-?????????????

8.- Sierra (escala de una legua)

Quote:

Originally posted by Arktos
?Yes! , No. 7:

Serritos (Cerritos) Cerros peque?os, lomitas

Muchos Gracias!
Yo tengo gusto de su # 7, aqu?lla me di problemas. Era seguro que era un "rr", no un "xx" como primero aparecer.

I really like your take on #7, that one had me really stumped. Although, I was pretty sure it was a "rr", as stated earlier, not a "xx" as it first appears.

[Edited on 12-24-2005 by Taco de Baja]