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Taco de Baja
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Need help with some words
I have some old maps (mid 1800's) of the Santa Paula area in CA and am trying to determine the translation for some of the words.
"Saujon Y Lindero" I know "lindero" is edge and relates to the edge of the land grant.....I just can't determine what a "Saujon" is.
"Saujonito" written next to a stream
"Abrevadero" ...also written as .. "Abrevadera" It appears to indicate a bench above a creek?
????rough translation "area above the stream crossing"...????
"venega" or "veniga" this is next to a drawing that looks like a spring and swamp. and the letters are definately is not "Cienaga" not enough of
them.
Could be that I am not reading the handwriting correctly, as come of the letters are hard to tell apart like v's and r's
Thanks
[Edited on 11-10-2005 by Taco de Baja]
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Marinero
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Abrevadero seems to mean "drinking trough", although I have never heard of it.
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bufeo
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Taco,
You mention "handwriting". Is there a chance that you can scan the words and then post? A few more sets of eyes looking at a word may see letters
appear differently. Having been in the profession of translating (Czech and French) at one time, I know the difficulty of dicyphering handwritten
lines.
PS (on edit): I think, as already mentioned, that abrevadero does mean water trough. There's a old trough up on the Salisbury Potrero (Los
Padres NF) that is designated as an abrevadero on one of my old maps.
[Edited on 11-10-2005 by bufeo]
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Taco de Baja
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I'll post them soon, good idea.
They are already scanned, I just will need to put them over on photobucket after cutting and pasting the words in question. May take a few days
though.
Thanks for the help
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Taco de Baja
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I do not know the date of #1 mid 1800 though.
#2-8 are form a map dated Feb 3, 1853
These maps are Courtesy of The Bancroft Library
University of California, Berkeley.
Maybe more eyes can read it differently. Also, don't discount spelling errors #8 "Syerra" may be "Sierra". 
Also, words may be old-fashioned i.e. "Legue" (in #8) is of course a "League" equal to 5,000 "Varas" or about 3 miles, the distance a person can walk
in an hour.
________________________________________________
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[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Taco de Baja]
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bajajudy
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#3 Looks like a T not an S...Tanjon or taujou
#2 since the v is not capitalized maybe it starts with an O
#6 is probably pozitas....little wells
#7 The double letters look more like X than R
Thats my take on those
I love stuff like this, thanks for sharing.
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elizabeth
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
"Saujon Y Lindero" I know "lindero" is edge and relates to the edge of the land grant.....I just can't determine what a "Saujon" is.
"Saujonito" written next to a stream
"venega" or "veniga" this is next to a drawing that looks like a spring and swamp. and the letters are definately is not "Cienaga" not enough of
them.
[Edited on 11-10-2005 by Taco de Baja] |
Here are some thoughts...could suajon be a variant of sauce meaning willow...seems like the written next to a stream could support that.
Maybe veniga is venida, which can mean an onrush of water...maybe an archaic reference to a spring?
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Taco de Baja
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the xx or rr in #7 looked similar to the writing for "arroyo" on another map, which is why I assumed it may be a "rr" instead of "xx".....
in #2 the O with a squiggle next to it may represent a spring and the dark area a swamp.
Good call on the "Pozitas" 
Also I went with "Saujon" since there was a "saujonito" on teh same map.
[Edited on 11-11-2005 by Taco de Baja]
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Braulio
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I don't know if this will help or not - it seems like the main problem here is just getting the spelling - but you can access old editions of the DRAE
online going back to the 1700s - check out:
http://buscon.rae.es/ntlle/SrvltGUILoginNtlle
...and then click on "NTLLE" and then "aceptar" - and then "search" icon - or "realizacion de consultas" icon at the upper left.
or go to :
http://www.rae.es/
and click on "Diccionarions Acad?micos" and follow the instructions (spanish unfortunately).
For example the word abrevadero is a watering place for cattle - iactually when I ran that one there was the word "parage" (which later became
"paraje" apparently) as part of the definition - so I had to go back and run parage through - it changed back in the 1700s.
Unfortunately there's no advanced search feature to search alternate spellings.
You can just leave the diccionario field at "todos" and search all editions at once.
When I have time I'll run some alternate spellings through on some of the other words.
[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]
[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]
[Edited on 11-16-2005 by Braulio]
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richard nauman
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bad link
Hey - cool thread everyone but I can't get Braulio's link to work.
RN
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Braulio
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Richard - I edited it - hopefully it works now.
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Braulio
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The "saujon" might be "zanjon" which comes from "zanja". Turning the u in to a n might not be that much of a stretch.
A zanja is either a ditch (manmade) or natural arroyo type deal.
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Taco de Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Braulio
The "saujon" might be "zanjon" which comes from "zanja". Turning the u in to a n might not be that much of a stretch.
A zanja is either a ditch (manmade) or natural arroyo type deal. |
I like it! 
Makes some sense too, as a zanja or a zanj?n (trench/ditch) would make a good property line. Hence, "Sanjon Y Lindero" And the other one "Sanjonito"
is coming out of a canyon.....so that fits too. Maybe the cartographer, just had spelling issues. 
Thanks for all the help people!
[Edited on 11-29-2005 by Taco de Baja]
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bugdude
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Assuming the map was written and notated by the same person:
#2. cienega
#3/#4. The first letter in #3 looks like a "T" - compare with first letter in #4, which looks like an "S"; notice the horizontal bar at top of first
letter in#3 and #4 hooks to the right at the top.
#6. I don't think the third letter is an "R". Compare with the "R"s in "tierra" of #5. There is a difference in the way they are written.
#7. Texxitor???
#8. Sierra
Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map? 
[Edited on 11/12/2005 by bugdude]
A man\'s reach should exceed his grasp - or what\'s a heaven for?
Robert Browning
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Braulio
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Yeah - maybe the cartographer was a distant relation of Oso.
I don't like the gender part - should be zanjonita or zanjoncita - but who's to say the last letter (of sanjonit-) isn't really an "a".
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Taco de Baja
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bugdude
Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map?
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I was able to read "Oro" and the big X just fine.....So I did not include that portion of the
map
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bugdude
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Taco de Baja
| Quote: | Originally posted by bugdude
Great post!
By the way, better find a xerox machine, we all want a copy of the treasure map?
|
I was able to read "Oro" and the big X just fine.....So I did not include that portion of the
map |
A man\'s reach should exceed his grasp - or what\'s a heaven for?
Robert Browning
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Oso
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Actually it was a description of Braulio and it said "sangron".
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Arktos
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My opinion
My friend Oso, willbe traduce for you
Arturo Ortega
www.yamecayoelveinte.com
****************
1.- Abrevadero: Lugar en el que llevaban a beber a los animales. Como comentario, aqu? en Monterrey M?xico, cuando vamos a un lugar a comprar cerveza,
jocosamente decimos: "vamos al abrevadero".
2.-Cienega (lugar con lodo)
3.- a)Sanjon: "Zanj?n" que es otra forma de decir "zanja".
b).- Lindero: L?mite entre dos terrenos
4.- Sanjonito. Si "Sanjon" era una "zanja". Sanjonito debi? ser una "zanja peque?a".
5.- Tierra de siembra: Parcela.
6.-Pozitos: Pozos para extraer agua.
7.-?????????????
8.- Sierra (escala de una legua)
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Arktos
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?Yes! , No. 7:
Serritos (Cerritos) Cerros peque?os, lomitas
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