BajaNomad

Pepper spray

Malihiniman - 2-25-2006 at 05:35 PM

Hi Nomads! I am traveling (driving) with 3 small children and the wife to Baja Sur. We will be in both populated and not so populated locations. I thought I had the security issue settled with my bear pepper spray. I have since heard that it is being confiscated at the border. Any information on the subject would be welcome.

turtleandtoad - 2-25-2006 at 05:37 PM

In Baja Sur, the only thing you need is common sense!

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 06:01 PM

my wife Edith caries one of those giant ones they sell for bears when you are hunting. a couple of weeks ago she came home crying and in general looking real bad. she did not know why but sed that on her way home from the bank in Santa Rosalia the something started smelling real bad and so she rolled up the windows. a couple days later when I could get close enough to the car to check it out I found the pepper spray had gone off in her bag in the car. we had to through away the bag but we were able to save the car and Edith.:lol:

Paula - 2-25-2006 at 06:08 PM

I carry pepper spray when I hike in Glacier Park in Montana because of the chance of meeting a grizzly bear on the trail. Is it the gekkos and iguanas you fear down here?

I wouldn't travel to a place where I felt the need to be armed-- at least not for a vacation.

Diver - 2-25-2006 at 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
I wouldn't travel to a place where I felt the need to be armed-- at least not for a vacation.


Very good words !

Malihiniman - 2-25-2006 at 06:16 PM

Thank you all for your input. I will give your opinions on my and my families security appropriate consideration. My primary interest is in the legality, technically and practically; of transporting capsican spray across the border and at any possible check points. Thank you in advance.

bajajudy - 2-25-2006 at 06:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
I wouldn't travel to a place where I felt the need to be armed-- at least not for a vacation.


Very good words !


AMEN!

bajajudy - 2-25-2006 at 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malihiniman
Thank you all for your input. I will give your opinions on my and my families security appropriate consideration. My primary interest is in the legality, technically and practically; of transporting capsican spray across the border and at any possible check points. Thank you in advance.


What we are all saying is that you DONT need it. Whether it is legal or not.

Diver - 2-25-2006 at 06:23 PM

I've traveled Baja with kids since mine were born.
Never a problem; in fact, the kids make people more friendly and more likely to approach you.
You almost always get a pass at the checkpoints.
If any of the kids are blond or redhaired even better; they're a rarity in Baja.
Unless you are planning to bushwack into some back-country to camp alone, you will have no problems.

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
I carry pepper spray when I hike in Glacier Park in Montana because of the chance of meeting a grizzly bear on the trail. Is it the gekkos and iguanas you fear down here?

I wouldn't travel to a place where I felt the need to be armed-- at least not for a vacation.


it depends on how brave you are I guess. since we have be been robed twice while doing our banking I think you might want to be careful around the old ATM.

turtleandtoad - 2-25-2006 at 06:32 PM

FYI, importing pepper spray into Mexico is illegal.

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 06:44 PM

I bought mine from a Mexican Policeman. they told Edith she should Cary it. with the proper permit which she has.

don't mess with her three people are in Jail now for trying,:lol:

woody with a view - 2-25-2006 at 06:48 PM

Quote:

Unless you are planning to bushwack into some back-country to camp alone, you will have no problems.


even then, you will be 1 in 3,000,000 if something bad happens. i feel the farther from the road you get, the cooler the people get....


BTW, machete is also great for chopping driftwood to burn.;)




FIVE HUNDRED POSTS!!!!!! wow, time flies.:cool:

[Edited on 2-26-2006 by woody in ob]

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody in ob
Quote:

Unless you are planning to bushwack into some back-country to camp alone, you will have no problems.


even then, you will be 1 in 3,000,000 if something bad happens. i feel the farther from the road you get, the cooler the people get....


BTW, machete is also great for chopping driftwood to burn.;)


right on Woody

Malihiniman - 2-25-2006 at 07:04 PM

Yes, remote 4x camping is definitely on the agenda I am self contained and very experienced; Just not outside 2nd amendment protection. I understand the locals are very friendly. I am not worried about the locals.

Diver - 2-25-2006 at 07:08 PM

FYI: Band operated spear guns and signal flare guns are both legal in Baja.

Signed, Anonymous :lol:

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 07:09 PM

the pepper spray is only a five hundred peso fine here if you are caught with out a permit. but I would not have a gun without a permit.

An Apology

bajajudy - 2-25-2006 at 07:21 PM

I am only thinking of BCS.
I am assuming that you will "scalded dog" it from the border to a nice campground. There is a good thread on Fred's board about where to camp the first night in Baja.

If I thought I would have to spend a lot of time in TJ or Ensenada, I would be thinking safety too. Not necessarily pepper spray but being smart about where you are.

We will be waiting for your trip report.

Malihiniman - 2-25-2006 at 07:38 PM

Accepted Judy. I understand unfamiliar people discussing non-lethal force as an introduction might be uncomfortable. Still it is better to be prepared and not need it; then otherwise.

Thanks Bruce, 500 Pesos doesn't sound so bad. Last time I was across the border a 12 gauge was standard issue. (Long time ago).

Thanks for the suggestions. I do not like the flair gun idea. What would you do if hit by a flair? Spear gun is slightly better... Machete requires closeing with the opponent; never a good idea.

I guess Bruces response leads to my next question: Exchange Rate? Thank you all.

Paula - 2-25-2006 at 07:47 PM

Bruce, it is a long held belief of mine that the best defense is no defense. I realize that this is laughable to most people, but it has served me well over time. And I never go to ATM's in bad neighborhoods after dark;).

Malihiniman, as that post about the bears moved me from newbie to junior nomad, my inner snotty teenager snuck out. I am old enough that I should not allow this to happen. I hope you have a good trip, and follow Judy's good advice about Tijuana and Ensenada.

Happy trails to you!

Bruce R Leech - 2-25-2006 at 08:04 PM

believe me your opinion will change after you have been assaulted and robed a couple times.

I used to feel the same way as you , and still do to some extent.

a person should not be armed with anything unless they are properly trained and intend to use it. a very sierras mistake is to think that a gun or pepper spray or anything is going to scare them off. don't show you have it until you use it. if you pull it out and point it at them and start yelling at them like they do in the movies you are more than likely to get shot with your own weapon.

if you don't think you can pull the trigger or push the button then you are better to fall on the ground , roll up in to a ball and close your eyes.

Dave - 2-25-2006 at 08:51 PM

I've witnessed pepper spray just peeing someone off. Bring a ball batt...and a ball & glove. :lol:

Bear Spray

turtleandtoad - 2-25-2006 at 11:11 PM

Bears have found the solution to Bear Spray

:lol::lol:

[Edited on 2-26-2006 by turtleandtoad]

oladulce - 2-26-2006 at 03:38 AM

In 2003, a couple of guys we know got a flat on the North road between San Ignacio and San Juanico. While they were changing the tire, 2 guys rode up on tricked-out (very out of place) ATV's and pointed guns at them and took their money. They described the guys as very mean, bad dudes and their instincts told them not to mess with them so they handed over everything right away. The guys held the guns to their heads and continued to yell and taunt them for another hour "for fun". This event prompted us to finally take our protection seriously.

It's just my husband and I in our camper and we spend a lot of time in remote places and beaches. Much of the time it's the warm season and frequently, the peak of summer, and we're usually the only dummies on the beach. We don't have AC in the camper and there's no way we could sleep with the doors and windows closed.

We've got a pepper spray in the cab of the truck, one by the camper door, and one next to the bed which (the plan is) we'd use to disable a perpetrator and a 50-zillion-something volt stun gun to finalize the deal. We conduct practice drills and run through scenarios occasionally to prevent self-inflicted injury, and pray we never have to use the stuff.

We are more concerned with curious soldiers at a checkpoint either spraying themselves, or getting zapped by the stun gun than we are with someone "confiscating" them. For that reason, we keep them out of the typical spots that the guys like to search like the glovebox, or under the seat, and disguise them as much as possible.


Others seems to feel that if they don't think about bad stuff, it won't happen to them. We're able to sleep better knowing that we put a little thought in to our protection.

Crystal meth is prevalent in the fish camps on the Pacific between San Ignacio and Mag Bay, and is prolific in our town of San Juanico. Pangeros, little kids we've watched grow up, wives, mothers and people you would never guess have become victims of the stuff. So far, it's only manifested in robberies-but robbery is at ridiculously epidemic porportions.

We'd be remiss to tell someone it's ok to take his family camping to an isolated beach in Baja without a little thought put in to potentially unsafe situations. Doesn't mean he needs to arm himself or that they should stay home.

This topic came up on another forum and someone recommended an alternative to pepper spray is a high-powered aerosol spray for hornets and wasps that is used by electric company lineman. I guess the stuff can spray 15-20 feet and would be very unpleasant to get in your face. If asked you could say it's just bug spray.



[Edited on 2-26-2006 by oladulce]

Phil S - 2-26-2006 at 08:06 AM

Yesturday while in a dive shop downtown around the corner from Cafe Ole in Loreto, I noted that they sell Pellet Pistols & pellet rifles. Sizes up to 22 cal pellets. One rifle was equipped with a scope. Price about $4,400 pesos for the rifle.Box of pellets $25.00 pesos. So might be a consideration for traveling or camping. BUT I'd hate to pull a pellet gun against a 9mm pistol the "bad guy" might be pointing at you.

[Edited on 2-26-2006 by Phil S]

Skeet/Loreto - 2-26-2006 at 09:04 AM

Phil; Were they 22 Cal. or 18 Cal?
Have they changed theLaw to allow the 22 Cal?

I am saddened to hear of peoples troubles in Baja. It is better when someone has a Gun pointed at you to do as they say and observ any information to assist in catching them at a later time.

Sometimes a Fish Billy loaded with lead could be helpful aganist a person with a Knife but not a gun.

Skeet/Loreto

Oladulce has it exactly right--------

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 10:01 AM

After 55 years of travel in Baja, and as a retired Fed. Law Enforcement officer, I believe that OLADULCE has written a well thought out, and very wise piece here, and those so inclined should take heed , and follow her advice.

I applaud her response, and agree completely, and have always taken similar precautions, and it has served me well.

Barry

Bob and Susan - 2-26-2006 at 10:30 AM

if i had a stun gun...

susan would probably use it on me:lol::lol:

Malihiniman - 2-26-2006 at 11:17 AM

I agree Barry. Pepper seems the best solution. My main question is; must it be brought across surreptisiously (smuggled). If so what is the penalty for discovery? I am currently working on a permit...

OLADUCE, thank you for a usefull response.

Legality of Pepper spray---------

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 11:29 AM

TurtleandToad says that it is illegal in Mexico------I simply do not know

Somebody else said the fine for having it is about 500 pesos ($50 USA) I don't know about that, either.

When it comes to me, or my family and friends safety, I do what I need to do, in my own opinion, and am willing to take the consequences as long as they are manageable.

BA

turtleandtoad - 2-26-2006 at 11:42 AM

Barry, slight correction; I didn't say it was illegal in Mexico, I said that it was illegal to bring it across the border (along with stun guns).

For all I know, you might be able to buy both locally. I've never looked for either because I've felt no need for it, or any other protection other than my common sense. I travel alone, boondock on the beaches, and never had a problem.

Of course there are places where I don't boondock, primarily because of the reasons oladulce mentioned. These are mainly the San Quinten and Ensenada areas. In these areas I stay at regular RV parks (probably surrounded by a bunch of people with bear spray and stun guns, if I need them) :)

TandT-----that is funny

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 12:59 PM

I too would not have any of that "stuff" if I were comfortable without it----that is the whole point (or problem??), I am NOT comfortable without some sort of protection, and since the Mexican's (and Canadian's) see fit to not let me carry my usual security blanket, I look for alternatives-----and yes, I have run wierdo's off from my camps when they obviously were up to no good------several times, over the years.

I just do not feel comfortable without SOME form of protection-----I have just seen to many bad guys, and the results of their crazyness, mainly in the USA, but in Mexico too.

I will keep my ears tuned, and yes, I will assist you if the time comes when you need it:yes::yes:

Also, about 90% of the time when camping I am pretty much alone in wild and wooly areas, both in the USA and Mexico. I almost never camp in RV areas, or parks, unless in a city.

Couldn't have said it better than Barry

Malihiniman - 2-26-2006 at 01:07 PM

I too have extensive remote camping experience with animal and human threats. The animals worry me less then the "humans".

add on--------about animals and protection----

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 01:18 PM

I was the bear management officer in Glacier National Park, and I NEVER went into the back country without my .41 magnum--------and no other Ranger that I knew was EVER in the backcountry without at least a .357 Magnum.

It was only the defenseless "tourists" that were not allowed to carry arms, which I always thought was incredibly bazaar, and sure exposed the NPS for lawsuits, IMHO. :fire::fire:

Sheep or Sheepdog???

bajaguy - 2-26-2006 at 01:34 PM

I would truly like to believe that everybody who travels (anywhere) are great folks, out to have a good time....however after 35 years of law enforcement in California and Nevada, and 20 in the military, I find that, unfortunately, it's not the case. North of the border, I always have my good friend, Dr. Glock (I also have pepper spray and my wife carries pepper spray). When in Baja, I ALWAYS carry pepper spray, several in the vehicle, and my wife and I always carry it on our person. Additionally, in our vehicle, along with a well stocked first aid kit, I always carry an Olin marine signal kit that contains a 12 gauge flare pistol and several hand launched flares. I also have a pen type flare launcher that I carry in my pocket.....never bothered at the military check points...although I'm sure that my military ID helps. I am not looking for trouble, but it I prepare for it. I have been travelling to Baja since 1962 and have never had an occasion to protect myself or fear for my safety, unlike several times north of the border.....I like the idea of the wasp spray. Just remember, you can either be a sheep or a sheepdog.....I prefer to be the sheepdog.

Don Alley - 2-26-2006 at 03:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
I was the bear management officer in Glacier National Park, and I NEVER went into the back country without my .41 magnum--------and no other Ranger that I knew was EVER in the backcountry without at least a .357 Magnum.

It was only the defenseless "tourists" that were not allowed to carry arms, which I always thought was incredibly bazaar, and sure exposed the NPS for lawsuits, IMHO. :fire::fire:


We've lived in Kalispell for over 30 years. I know some locals who pack a handgun in Glacier. I only know one person who ever fired his...that was a local dentist...shot himself in the stomach at a backcountry campground with a big magnum. Oops!

So one wonders...maybe carrying a gun makes me safer from bears, but a bunch of other people carrying guns may be as dangerous as the bears. I'd rather keep the tourists unarmed there.

Don Alley--------

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 03:32 PM

your post points out why the "rule" still stands------apparently the majority agree with you that guns are "just bad news in the hands of tourists", and that may very well be true.

Still, there is no way that I will hike in Glacier without a very serious weapon----------I saw several times what those bears can do-------I was there in 1968, just after the 2 girls were partially consumed. And, the hypocracy still stands---------Rangers armed/tourists not armed.

Now, having said all that, I never had to shoot anything the entire time I was there, but I sure was totally comfortable hiking in the back country with my cannon. :yes:

Paula - 2-26-2006 at 04:34 PM

What a small world, Barry! We weren't up there yet for the infamous Night of the Grizzlies-- the book was chilling. The bears are certainly to be respected and given the right of way.
Having seen crazed hikers come running down a trail wild-eyed and yelling "GRIZZLY ON THE TRAIL!!!! AAAAYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!" more than once, I am so glad they were not carrying guns, as I think any sound on the trail could have caused them to panic and fire.

My hiking group has always appreciated seeing those good rangers of Glacier on the trail. Muchas gracias!

Paula----

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 04:47 PM

If you liked "Night of the Grizzlies", did you ever read Olsen's "Slaughter the Animals, Poison the Earth"? He devoted several pages to dumb me getting myself shot with a "coyote getter" cynanide gun outside Dinosaur National Monument, Utah-------now that was "chilling"!!! and my cannon did no good at all!!!:lol::lol:

I arrived in Glacier just after the bear attack, the newby on the block, so to speak. No body wanted to deal with the bears----the Ranger's were all traumatised------so they just "appointed" me as Bear Management Officer----what a hoot, but scary. Glacier is beautiful, and lots of fun. I trapped and "moved" 44 bears that summer of ' 68.

Thanks for the kind words.:bounce:

turtleandtoad - 2-26-2006 at 05:48 PM

In Glacier NP, there have been 9 bear-related deaths in a park that has hosted 55 million people in the last 65 years.

In Yellowstone there have been 6 bear-related deaths since it became a NP in 1872 (one of these was a man that kept poking the bear with his umbrella to get it to "preform" for the camera).

Bear traps used by trappers/hunters kill more people (about 1500) than bears.

Every year, 50 thousand people lose their lives in auto-related accidents.

So we should all carry guns and wear leg armor in the woods and drive tanks on the roads. :?:

Diver - 2-26-2006 at 06:03 PM

Lencho,

I like to show them my Batman Club membership card.

Sometimes I show them my driver's license picture from 1973.
It's always worth a laugh !

Diver - 2-26-2006 at 06:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by turtleandtoad
So we should all carry guns and wear leg armor in the woods and drive tanks on the roads. :?:


Or drive F350's and spend the rest of our time on the couch.:lol:

T & T----------Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh--------

Barry A. - 2-26-2006 at 06:13 PM

I never said that "all should carry weapons"--------I just am amazed when folks pound somebody for even asking if "we" experienced Baja people have answers for folks with security issues about travel in Baja. The first few answers to this question were testy, and NOT helpful, or so I thought.

Your points are well taken, of course, but people do get concerned about their safety, no matter if the odds are a million to one that anything bad will happen. I personally think that the odds are somewhat better than that for something bad happening in Mexico, or the USA, if you are not prepared, and if it did, I for one would be devastated that I had not taken the precautions that seemed obvious, to me.

Paranoid????? some would say so, but for me, it is so easy to take the proper precautions, so I do. We all have our fears and personal comfort zones-------There are probably things that you protect yourself from that I would not even give a thought too, and vice-versa.

Bottom line for me: There ain't no way that I am "walking with the bears" in the woods without my weapon-------they truly scare me, and I don't like them. I feel the same way about "bad guys", and even some "bad women". :lol:

Diver - 2-26-2006 at 06:28 PM

Making me think now, Barry.

I would bet that even those who are against self defense probably don't pick up as many hitch hikers as they did in the '70's. Most probably don't leave their vehicles unlocked when away from home anymore, either.
I know I don't. Call me paraniod.

LENCHO

bajaguy - 2-26-2006 at 07:57 PM

If stopped at a checkpoint and they are searching vehicles, I will generally engage the troops in conversation regarding their equipment and rank structure. Most of them are friendly and want to show off the equipment....when I display some knowledge regarding the vehicles, radios or weapons they enquire of my knowledge, and I explain/show them my retired US Army ID card. Most often the sergeant or officer in charge, after some conversation will just wave me
through.

Pompano - 2-27-2006 at 04:35 AM

Hmmm....let me get this staight.

- An armed bandit is molesting me and/or my family. I spray him with illegal pepper spray. Now I have a pee-off armed bandit molesting me and/my family.

I don't like that scenario. I would have to be an idiot to put myself in that situation in the first place....and a stupid, unloving, dangerous turd to even remotely think of putting my family at risk.

I much prefer these scenarios.

- I don't go to places where I feel these events could happen.
- If I have made a mistake and let harm approach my loved ones....I protect them from mortal danger by using sudden and decisive deadly force, not some stinging perfume.

A 'possible' scenario:

- I leave the bandit with a huge hole in his forehead and continue on our way..with another firearm for my collection.

...which reminds me...where is that Smith & Wesson anyway?

bajajudy - 2-27-2006 at 07:31 AM

I have one question for Malihiniman
Do you carry pepper spray in your car where you live in the states or Canada?

Bruce R Leech - 2-27-2006 at 07:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pompano
Hmmm....let me get this staight.

- An armed bandit is molesting me and/or my family. I spray him with illegal pepper spray. Now I have a pee-off armed bandit molesting me and/my family.

I don't like that scenario. I would have to be an idiot to put myself in that situation in the first place....and a stupid, unloving, dangerous turd to even remotely think of putting my family at risk.

I much prefer these scenarios.

- I don't go to places where I feel these events could happen.
- If I have made a mistake and let harm approach my loved ones....I protect them from mortal danger by using sudden and decisive deadly force, not some stinging perfume.

A 'possible' scenario:

- I leave the bandit with a huge hole in his forehead and continue on our way..with another firearm for my collection.

...which reminds me...where is that Smith & Wesson anyway?


maybe if you spray it on there feet:lol: but if you spray it in there face like you are supposed to they will be disabled long enough for you to make a git away.

LENCHO

bajaguy - 2-27-2006 at 08:16 AM

Larry

The radios that I have seen are all US supplied. Mostly all are SINGARS (Single Channel Ground & Airborne Radio System) although they have multiple channels - can be either vehicle/aircraft/manpack and are capable of voice and data transmission-either short or long range. Had to dig out one of my old "cheat sheets" to find out.....FM/VHF 30-87MHz.
I remember how to turn one on and off, change the freq's and the battery......my radio guy (God bless him) did the rest. They are "old" technology and are being phased out. If you are interested in additional info, try and get a copy of the operator's manual....TM 11-5820.

Terry (CPT, MI, USAR Ret)

PS: Yeah, another Captain!!!

Kumbaya

MrBillM - 2-27-2006 at 10:32 AM

It is interesting that any question regarding prudent precautions to protect oneself and family are ALWAYS met with an abundance of answers from the Kumbaya crowd describing the idyllic and crime-free paradise they inhabit known as Baja. It matters not if you preface your question by noting you are interested ONLY in the question of legality and aren't soliciting Philosophical advice. You are "Damn" well going to get such advice whether you like it or not. It also would not matter if you were to spend days enumerating documented cases of innocents being the victim of violent crime at times and places where they would least expect it, it simply doesn't happen in our Southern Shangri La.

As far as going nowhere that I would feel in danger, Personally, I have lost count of the number of times that I have ended up in a place I would rather not be simply by making a wrong turn or taking a highway offramp in an unfamiliar town. There is also no reassurance in statistics that indicate the unlikelyhood of coming to harm. Those reassuring stats are meaningless if you are the ONE victim.

Ignore anyone's advice regarding defending yourself and your loved ones. It's just a bunch of aged Love Children spouting nonsense. Do whatever you think is advisable legally.

Bruce R Leech - 2-27-2006 at 11:59 AM

well spoken MrBillM