-----it is dangerous stuff. Almost got me one Fall in Colorado. Creeps up on you and you don't even recognize it unless you know what the symptoms
are.
Bad scene!!!!
We lost a guy in Dunsmuir this past week of cold weather.
vgabndo - 3-18-2006 at 08:16 PM
Suspicion of alcohol abuse, found on a sidewalk in front of a cafe. You sure can't take it lightly.Paula - 3-18-2006 at 09:23 PM
With every needless death-by-politics, we all lose a piece of our souls.
[Edited on 3-19-2006 by Paula]bajabound2005 - 3-18-2006 at 09:28 PM
Our take? There should be no border...well, maybe a border so you know when you've crossed, but no walls, no fences, no immigration, no
checkpoints....Anyone seen the movie "A Day Without A Mexican"?Packoderm - 3-19-2006 at 12:35 AM
Should Mexico have a southern border with Central America? Or an inter-oceanic border with China? There are many good people all over the world who
could benefit from moving from their desparately poor situation to a richer country like Mexico.Capt. George - 3-19-2006 at 10:25 AM
Why has the United States become so wealthy and so powerful in such a short period of time?
Immigration and the mixing of blood....the most ambitious and hard working people, from all points of the globe, looking for a better life.
How many Mexicans a year take that risk illegally crossing our border, die in the process? I don't think they're stealing too many jobs from our
populace. I don't look at them as criminals per se, they are just trying to improve the standard of living for their families in the best way they
can....
Would you not do the same for your children?
Every Mexican that dies in an attempt to get to the U.S. to improve their lot in life, is in itself a crime. These are our neighbors, can't we do
better?
There's a powerful movement to push Mexico into becoming another communist state....the pressure (and money) are coming from Central America/Cuba etc.
Will this be a better situation? Look at the lead in the upcoming presidential race!
All the monies spent in the Far East would be, perhaps, better spent aiding our next door neighbors to the south. Ah, but alas, peaceful aide to a
neighboring country does not, immediately, increase the profit margin for our wealthiest of Corporations.....
I will now step down from the soapbox and wish you all a very Happy Sunday.
Capt. GeorgeTMW - 3-19-2006 at 10:46 AM
Having an open border is a foolish ideal with too many extreme possibilities. If you want a guess worker program fine, get it started. To hand over
billions in aid with no strings is also foolish. To have strings attached labels us as interfering. If the Mexicans want a commie type government
that's for them to decide for better or worse.Capt. George - 3-19-2006 at 10:56 AM
rather spend my tax dollars in Mexico then in Iraq causing more death and distruction on both sides...it's all about more MONEY to be made.
slowly the death count for our young soldiers climbs....as in Nam, if nobody you know taking the brunt...in all goes on our back burners....
No open border but allow immigration for qualifying Mexicanos....who once owned California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico??? Billions on war? How
about billions on peace? Sorry, no big profits there!
Capt George : been a right wing republican most of my life....getting harder and harder with each passing day...vandenberg - 3-19-2006 at 11:07 AM
Quote:
Capt George : been a right wing republican most of my life....getting harder and harder with each passing day...
Make room for another one Captain.
People dying------this is new??
Barry A. - 3-19-2006 at 11:24 AM
Without Politicians there is no democratic government.
Without any government there are no laws.
Without any laws there is chaos, and barbarism----BECAUSE THERE ARE ALWAYS THOSE AMONG US WHO WANT IT THAT WAY, and there always will be.
People make choices, and some die because of those choices. Politicians make mistakes. What else is new? Each individual is responsible for their own
choices, and the consequenses of those choices.
I find it difficult to lose sleep over dozens dying in the desert as a result of decisions that they made. Should we lose sleep over the 10's of
thousands dying on the hyways because of choices that they made? Do you???-----all knew the risks before they embarked, or they should----there is
ample info available. Shall we do away with speed limits, or go back to 55mph? Nothing works perfectly. The border situation has remained in
stalemate for decades because people will not sit down and solve the problem------they would apparently rather wring their hands in dismay, or ignor
the problem, or both.
I say enforce the laws, (all of them---duh!!), impliment "guest worker programs", gain physical control of the borders, and get on with our business.
Just do it!!!bajabound2005 - 3-19-2006 at 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TW If you want a guess worker program fine, get it started.
Gotta love those "guess" workers programs!Paula - 3-19-2006 at 12:55 PM
Can it be that some of us just have'nt put a human face to this issue? To be able to dismiss the deaths of people who are just doing what they can to
survive and make a living seems heartless. The work of mankind is to try to get it all right, and never to stop trying, unless by some miracle we
ever actually do it.
Crossing Over: A Mexican Family on the Migrant Trail, by Ruben Martinez, published by Henry Holt and Company in 2001 is an excellent book on
this issue. Take a look at it on amazon.com, or at a bookstore-- it is availble in paperback. And it is good reading-- you will enjoy it!
Happy March 19 to you all-- especially Captain George and Vandenberg!bajabound2005 - 3-19-2006 at 01:14 PM
Have you see the movie, A Day Without A Mexican? It might open some eyes out there.
"---results staring them in their faces----"
Barry A. - 3-19-2006 at 01:17 PM
-----You are right, Soulpatch, of course, but that is part of the problem------those that deal directly with the "bodies" sometimes only get to see
the "trees" and lose sight of the "forest", in my opinion. Each of us in only capable of rationally handling so much "reality" before we lose our
objectivity------that is "heart", I suppose.
I worked the border in a LE position for 13 years, and that sure shaped my opinions at the time----I saw lots of bodies. Now, I have been away from
the border for 20 years, and I have a different perspective------don't really know which one is right, but probably a combination of both.
But we have to do something-----the present situation is really out of control, in my opinion, and is not good for the Country.
BarryDon Alley - 3-19-2006 at 03:15 PM
Guest worker program...a corporate "dream workforce." Use 'em, then send them away. You don't have to worry about them needing retirement plans, or
long-term health insurance. You don't have to worry that they may someday be voters. But of course government will collect taxes on their earnings.Don Alley - 3-19-2006 at 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by bancoduo
Remember the John Birch society. Everyone thought they were right wing nuts. It seems now they were right on predicting the future of this country.
google it.
Yeah, right. I want some of what you're smoking.
Questions
Baja Bernie - 3-19-2006 at 04:07 PM
This entire subject has me very conflicted as it has for the 40+ years. Just the concept of borders is one that we may ponder over forever and reach
no conclusion. The only thing that I know for sure is that borders have always existed between people, society?s and civilizations. AND, they have
always been stoutly defended by those civilizations which have continued to exist and prosper.
When Americans started to cross this continent many Indian tribes took exception to our crossing their borders?they didn?t seem to even want
neighboring tribes moving into their territory. No solid lines painted on the ground but everyone knew and understood that there was a very real
danger in crossing over those borders. Our pioneers had no doubt that on any given day they would have to circle the wagons and that some of them
would die before they got?to wherever?they were going. When the Donner Party entered California they were breaking into someone else?s territory?the
only thing different from today is that the Border Patrol was not hanging around trying to rescue them. How many of these same pioneers were just
people seeking a better life for their families. No one seemed to much care when they perished in rather large numbers trying to cross the western
deserts.
I posted this statement by Pio Pico a while back on this forum and I was honestly surprised that very few seemed to either understand or care about
it?Pio Pico, last Mexican Governor of Alta California.....................................
?What are we to do then? Shall we remain supine, while these daring strangers are overrunning our fertile plains, and gradually outnumbering and
displacing us? Shall these incursions go on unchecked, until we shall become strangers in our own land?"
What it tells me is that the Mexicans did little or nothing to even attempt to stop the hordes of Americans who were overrunning their
?borders?.(Perhaps there was really nothing they could have done) Sadly, Pico was exactly right?as I believe that I said before?borders must be
defended by civilizations or they will perish as the Mexicans, as a civilization, did in the southwest. And as have all civilizations since recorded
history. A few such as Rome continued to exist after failing to staunch the flow of foreigners across their borders?but they became much less
important and vastly different civilizations in the process.
It seems to me that most successful country?s and civilizations have ?controlled? the influx of foreigners, much as America has done, by selectively
controlling who would be allowed in and in what numbers. Exceptions have always been made in the cases when the civilization has determined that a
person or a group of people would vastly benefit the host nation.
I would ask a few questions here. As a long time Republican I have quit supporting the current administration because they will not defend our
borders (not because I dislike Mexicans?I love most of them) but because as a student of history I know what will occur if we do not control our
borders. I should also say that I do not have any requirement to earn money or support a family so my opinion of the jobs lost in America because of
the uncontrolled influx of people across our border or the outsourcing of job elsewhere does not impact me.
What do the young people of America think about how ?their? future will be effected by illegal aliens ?I can tell you what my grandkids think when
they can?t even get a hamburger flipping entry level job because they can?t speak Spanish in their own country.
Why is it that the Mexican Government refuses to provide meaningful jobs for it?s own citizens?in a country that now has more natural resources than
we do. Why is it that this same government (and many other people) believe that the United States should provide, jobs, hospitals, etc for Mexico's
own marginal citizens?at the same time rich Mexicans are buying up American companies right and left.
How many of you honestly believe that the illegal Mexicans are taking only the lowest level jobs in our country?
Why should Mexicans be forced to leave their homeland to find jobs and then send a huge percentage of their money back to their relatives who can not
support themselves?
How many of you understand that the Mexican style politics and government are already being followed at the city, county, and state governments in
California and elsewhere in the United States?
When this take over is completed where will the poor Mexicans go then?
You have it exactly right, Bernie-----
Barry A. - 3-19-2006 at 04:51 PM
----and Don Alley: your definition of "guest worker program" sounds reasonably accurate to me-----So?????
What is the problem??? This IS a Capitalist society, not a Socialist society. Would you have it some other way??bajabound2005 - 3-19-2006 at 07:29 PM
Here's a possibility: why don't we treat the Mexicans the same way we do the Canadians? The last time I was in Niagara Falls, I didn't recall seeing
something that makes the old Berlin Wall (which I also saw) look like one surrounding a Beverly Hills garden. Give our southern neighbors a break. To
the best of my understanding, the only threat they pose to us is taking the crappy jobs that few gringos will line up for. Geez, these are just people
with a lot of pride and loyalty whom history has unfortunately relegated to a less advantageous position, probably much the same as we'll be when
China and India really get cranked up.
bajabound2005----------
Barry A. - 3-19-2006 at 08:01 PM
Because comparing Canada with Mexico is like comparing apples and oranges-------somewhere between 10 and 20 million (we don't even know how many)
Latin immigrants are in the USA ILLEGALLY right NOW, and they continue to come. The key word here is ILLEGALLY----they have broken the laws of the
USA, and we are just as much at fault as they are as we are not even enforcing our laws, for the most part. What is the point of having laws??? What
do we expect??
We NEED immigrants, for lots of reasons, not the least which is our tradition to except them, but they should be LEGAL.
I won't even address smuggling, and other criminal enterprises that are satelite to ILLEGAL immigrants, and the porosity of our borders, nor the other
very valid points that other "posters" have brought up in this thread.
I believe we HAVE a problem, and it has been with us a long, long time, and we need to address it NOW. And those that don't seem to realize it, or
care, make me very nervous.Paula - 3-19-2006 at 08:45 PM
Quote:
We NEED immigrants, for lots of reasons, not the least which is our tradition to except them, but they should be LEGAL.
Freudian slip???
Why don't we try accepting thembajabound2005 - 3-19-2006 at 09:09 PM
did everyone miss the "guess" worker program?
No,
Baja Bernie - 3-19-2006 at 09:24 PM
but I try and not correct others as I have enough problems of my own.awfulart - 3-20-2006 at 08:15 AM
Perhaps some attention should be given the Mexican Government and what they might do to correct or alleviate what causes their citizens to leave for
the U.S. Is there a Mexican "Middle Class" Could part of it be the amount of money being sent back to Mexico from the illegals. Until the law is
changed, most of them are here illegally.
What does the Mexican Government do when an Americano is caught without the proper paper work etc?TMW - 3-20-2006 at 08:24 AM
The Canadians aren't crossing the border by the millions illegally to find work. Legally they have a green card. The problem with most of the bills
proposed in congress for a guess worker program involve granting some type of amnesty to the illegals already here. What signal does that send. The
same one Reagan sent when he granted amnesty to 6 million or more in the 80s. They just keep coming. The Mexican gov't doesn't mind, they want the
billions of dollars that's sent back home. The employers don't mind, they want the cheap labor (in contrast to union labor) that they can get. Many in
the public are brainwashed to believe that this illegal labor force is necessary to keep the cost of fruit and vegetables down. The only way you can
stop illegal immigration is to confiscate the employers assets and shut them down period regardless of who they are. And throw them in jail. It's not
hard to do a background check on someone and if they are not legal they don't get hired. If an employer has done a proper background check and later
finds the person is illegal they turn him over to the authorities. Now we can start talking about a real guess worker program.bajalou - 3-20-2006 at 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by awfulart
What does the Mexican Government do when an Americano is caught without the proper paper work etc?
Give them 30 days to get proper papers - If they don't, deport back across the border.David K - 3-20-2006 at 09:10 AM
Supply and Demand... That is the magnet... There are many jobs that the latinos come here to perform because Americans are NOT interested in doing
them... At least that is my observation, almost daily... Latinos actually want to work! That is a big plus.
They should be documented, so let's figure out why that can't be done without the expense and wait that keeps the masses coming here illegally.Don Alley - 3-20-2006 at 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
----and Don Alley: your definition of "guest worker program" sounds reasonably accurate to me-----So?????
What is the problem??? This IS a Capitalist society, not a Socialist society. Would you have it some other way??
Crooked congressmen, bloated with corporate donations, pass legislation creating a new class of laborer. One with limited rights. No social security.
No benefits. No unions. Use 'em up and toss them out.
Being a "Capitalist" society, these workers would be very much in demand. So much so, that if some US citizens won't work under similar conditions,
the companies can hire the "guest" workers instead.
There is a demand for poor foreign labor to keep wages and prices depressed. That in turn helps keep interest rates down to grease the housing market.
And the USA only pretends to try to stop "illegal" immigration to provide some political cover for politicians.
So that's Capitalism?
All presided over by some clown claiming to be a born again Christian guided by some kind of higher moral beliefs.
I think it's Corruptionism.Baja Bernie - 3-20-2006 at 09:36 AM
Look around the building trades and you will find that they do not only come here to do the work the Americans won't do.
The last time I had some drywall installed I called a cell phone number and the guy came up from Tijuana and did the work for me. My electrician,
born again, left for Las Vegas and my new electrical contractor is a very nice Mexican guy whom I can't understand unless we are face to face (Yes, he
is licenced). His 'journeyman' can't speak any English but he is one good electrician. My plumber is always crying about the fact that so many
Mexican 'plumbers' have come up that he is losing business right and left because they are'only' charging $40.00 per hour.
No, a lot of them are not coming up here for those jobs Americans won't do.
[Edited on 3-20-2006 by Baja Bernie]chickensoup - 3-20-2006 at 03:25 PM
Open the borders??? Give back Mexico??? Come on.
First, how many Mexicans lived in the area when it was taken from them? Compared to today's populations?...Very little.
What's done is done. It can't be changed. Should we go back to speaking some native american language too?
As for letting everyone just come on up for the party...give me a break! Ever lived in a 3rd world country??
It is sink or swim...and just like when you throw a swimmer next to a drowner...well, everyone drowns.
Why should we be the solution for them? How about their own countries trying a little problem solving.bajabound2005 - 3-20-2006 at 06:54 PM
People, People!! It's a GuesT Worker program, as in a guest in our country -- not a Guess Worker program. And let's go back to this question, any
of you seen the movie "A Day Without a Mexican?"Pappy Jon - 3-21-2006 at 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Capt. George
No open border but allow immigration for qualifying Mexicanos....who once owned California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico???
You missed one ... Florida.
Whoa - Don't cut them out of Social
neilm - 3-21-2006 at 08:45 AM
Security - we need those guys paying into the bottom of the pyramid.
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
No social security. No benefits. No unions. Use 'em up and toss them out.
.
Don Alley - 3-21-2006 at 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by neilm
Security - we need those guys paying into the bottom of the pyramid.
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
No social security. No benefits. No unions. Use 'em up and toss them out.
.
Maybe the law (as yet not passed) will have them pay into Social Security. After all, otherwise we will have a portion of the workforce not paying
into the system, and that's not good, is it? But if it's a guest worker law, will they be allowed to stick around to collect? No, and that's not good
either.