BajaNomad - A Recommended Tire for My Use... See what I decided on... (11-08 update)

A Recommended Tire for My Use... See what I decided on... (11-08 update)

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David K - 4-14-2006 at 07:32 PM

My use (as most) is mostly daily street and highway driving...

Size: 265/70 X 16"

1) Quiet running is desired.

My primary 4WD use is in deep sand (beaches and arroyos) followed by steep grade climbing, mud and snow would be the least often 4WD use, but needed.

For sand, a rounded sidewall is prefered for better floatation as opposed to the stiff, square edge sidewall of BFG All Terrain T/As. I have seen too many sidewall holes in All Terrains to buy into their 3 ply sidewall advantage talk.

My favorite 4WD tires were the Armstrong Tru Tracs sold by Dick Cepek over 20 years ago.

2) Good sand floatation along with some mud/snow and climbing traction is desired.

3) Decent milage (tread wear) would be nice.

My Toyota Tacoma has BFG Rugged Trail T/As, but as with my previous TRD Tacoma, they do not get over 30,000 miles... I now have about 24,000 miles on them and the tread is getting shallow.

When my last Tacoma wore out the second set of BFGs at 60, 000 miles, I changed to Futura Dakota tires (made by Cooper and sold through Pep Boys) and was very happy with them (low, low price of $85 and 50,000 mile warantee). At 25-30,000 miles when they needed replacing, new ones were only about half the price ($45).

3) Easy to swallow price... specially if they only last 30K miles.
The popular All Terrains are about $165 each, however they seem to last longer according to those who have them.

4) Not made by a French or communist owned company... That eliminates BFG and their parent company, Michelin. I would prefer an American or Japanese company. Now, this is not a major issue, just a minor one. If the arguement for a French tire is strong enough, I will consider it.

What I am looking at:

1) Dick Cepek Radial F-C II (in magazines, but who stocks these?)

2) Mickey Thompson Baja ATZ Radial

WHAT SAY YOU ???

My fall back choice is Cooper/ Futura Dakotas, again...

[Edited on 11-24-2008 by David K]

Bruce R Leech - 4-14-2006 at 08:07 PM

4) Not made by a French or communist owned company

this should be #1

Bob H - 4-15-2006 at 05:27 AM

Not another tire thread... go with the BFG A/T To's and you can't go wrong.

Are you saying you already need new tires on your new truck? What?
Bob H

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by Bob H]

20 Straight Wins....

LaTijereta - 4-15-2006 at 07:53 AM

Sorry for the low resolution..but 50K :mad:

bajajudy - 4-15-2006 at 07:57 AM

We have BFG A/T on all 4 of our vehicles, and never had a flat. (I am knocking on wood at this moment :biggrin:

)
They are loud on the highway, I think, but nothing that Sirius Radio cant block out.
Go with the pros(off roaders that is)

[Edited on 4-15-2006 by bajajudy]

TMW - 4-15-2006 at 09:51 AM

If your happy with the Cooper tires stay with them. I prefer BFG. Have never had a sidewall failure but have had flats when the tread was less than 1/3 so I change them sooner. I've got 33,000 on my Z71 and the tread appears to be about 5/8 or more of a new tire. It came with Bridgestone passenger car tires but any water on the road and the rear end would break loose in a sec. I didn't like that so I keep the BFGs on. Noise is not a problem for me as I'm a little hard of hearing and the radio level goes up automatically as the speed does.

David K - 4-15-2006 at 11:18 AM

Thanks amigos, let's put the all mighty All Terrain T/As to rest for now... as I said, I want a rounded sidewall (I seen how poorly they work on Shell Island, and to please Bruce :yes:

something other than a Michelin product if possible.

Here is one of my possible tire choices:

David K - 4-15-2006 at 11:22 AM

Problem is nobody has these in stock... According to their web sites, both should be available at Big O Tires (one near me)... But yetsreday, Big O said they only deal with Mickey Thompson and not Dick Cepek...?

Any opinions on the Pirelli Scorpions?

[Edited on 4-21-2006 by David K]

Bajaboy - 4-15-2006 at 09:13 PM

Just my two cents, I've had my Tacoma with factory installed Bridgestone's now for about 6 months with two flats...one nail and one razor blade. Previously, I had a Toyota p/u with BFG Mud tires (over 185k on a few sets of tires) with no flats. Hmmm....coincidence...I was a lot more confindent drive the BFGs....I can't wait until these tires wear down so I can switch back to BFG.

BTW, DK, never had a problem driving on sand.

Zac

[Edited on 4-16-2006 by Bajaboy]

Frank - 4-15-2006 at 10:06 PM

I have Toyos MT's load range E. So far Im really happy with them, I checked the sidewall thickness of the BFG and others the Toyo's were thicker.

Ken Cooke - 4-16-2006 at 09:18 AM

David K,

Don't fall for the false advertisements. The truth is, those "Baja Champions" do not race the thin-sidewalled All-Terrains or Mud-Terrains very often. They run the more expensive and better built tires seen in this photo.

My experience with BFGoodrich tires has been more akin to this photo where we had to change out the BFG tire in the desert with power tools in hand.

If it were me, I'd try the Mickey Thompson/Dick Cepek tires you mentioned for their available traction and better sidewall strength. Either America's Tire/Discount Tire or 4 Wheel Parts should stock these. Big O will most likely try to sell you some Kelly tires which also have paper-thin sidewalls - from what I have SEEN in the past.

[Edited on 4-16-2006 by Ken Cooke]

David K - 4-16-2006 at 10:22 AM

Ken: Big O didn't try to sell me anything, was very nice... said he could get Mickey Thompsons... Mentioned Nitto (sp?)... Isn't that one of the brands you had on the Jeep?

Discount Tires and Pacific Tires are listed as dealers too.

Zac: I remember you telling me how happy you were with Mud Terrain T/As... Cooper (Futura) makes the same style tire as well. My concern is highway noise with those... Do I need to play Van Halen at max volume to cover up the tire humm??

Thanks for responding Frank... Where did you get the Toyos?

Ken Cooke - 4-16-2006 at 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ken: Big O Mentioned Nitto (sp?)... Isn't that one of the brands you had on the Jeep?

I haven't run Nitto's on my Jeep. So far, LT245x16 Goodyear MT/Rs (7,600 mi.), 33" TrXus MTs (36,000 mi.), BFG ATs (~1,800 mi.), and BFG MTs (~2,400 mi.). I now run the TrXus MTs again - made proudly in Mexico.
It says so on the sidewall.

BTW, if you buy a set of BFG MT/KMs, don't forget a bottle of Advil to go with the headache from the high-pitched whine you'll hear at 60 m.p.h.

Jack Swords - 4-16-2006 at 11:12 AM

I'm on my 5th set of BFG T/A 31X10.5 on two Tacomas. I like to keep some tread on the road and the rocks sure eat it up. But, then again, that represents lots of Baja milage. Just got a new 2006 4Runner 4X4 (kept the Tacoma 4X4 too). Tires are 265/70/16 and are Michelins as we bought it from Toyota. Sooo we'll wear these out carefully and plan to go back to BFG. I have run Coopers in Baja, but rolled the truck and didn't get a chance to really wear them out. David, let us know what you finally decide, and how it works out in the real world.

David K - 4-16-2006 at 11:18 AM

Okay, here's one more possibility...

Cooper Tires Discoverer STT

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by David K]

David K - 4-16-2006 at 11:21 AM

Thanks Jack...

I still have plenty of time to find my next tire and I appreciate everyone's input.

bufeo - 4-16-2006 at 01:10 PM

Here's a link you might find useful-
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.js...

A couple of months ago Cooper was listed and was rated quite high. I don't see it now and I don't have an explanation for the omission.

Seems to me I read something about a recent Cooper 'recall' but I'm not certain for which tire.

I use the BFG ATs (3-ply sidewalls and I like that)

I know that Hercules Tires is the distributor for M Thompsons and Cepeks, but I don't know who makes the tires.

BajaTaco purchased the Coopers a month or so ago, but he's out on a trail (SW AZ) this weekend.

Bajaboy - 4-16-2006 at 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay, here's one more possibility...

Cooper Tires Discoverer SST

DK-a friend of mine ran those on his Toyota and loved him. But, he was mainly wheeling in the Sierra's and thus was doing more rock-crawing than anything else. But, the price was right from what I recall.

Zac

Ken Cooke - 4-17-2006 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks Jack...

I still have plenty of time to find my next tire and I appreciate everyone's input.

David,

I saw that Mickey Thomson ATX today in a parking lot, and it looked like a perfect Baja All-Terrain. I'm not sure about the sidewalls, but because the tread extends into the sidewall, there looks to be plenty of footprint for use on the sand. And those "Sidebiter" lugs look more substantial than what BFGoodrich offers. It looks like a much better tire IMO.

David K - 4-17-2006 at 05:22 PM

Thanks again for the input...

Today I discovered a sidewall crack on my BFGs (and a nail)... No air loss, however... yet!

So, my desire for new tires has just increased... I called a Cooper tire dealer today and they have the Discoverer STT. I will go take a look to see in person...

I would like to see the Mickey Thompsons in person too... If anyone knows where in No. San Diego County they have the ATZ, please let me know...

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by David K]

Mike Supino - 4-17-2006 at 05:50 PM

Did you check this site for Mickey Thompson dealers?

http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/dealers.html

David K - 4-17-2006 at 05:53 PM

Yes I did Mike, thanks... BIG O (a named distributor) is near me, but they don't stock it, can order it in. The Dick Cepek web site also listed Big O, but Big O said NO! :rolleyes:

Roberto - 4-17-2006 at 06:46 PM

Here you go - http://fourwheelparts.com/4wp/products/productLine.asp?cat=T... .

Three stores in San Diego County.

Have you checked the prices on those tires? I don't think they'll qualify for "easy to swallow price".

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by Roberto]

Ken Cooke - 4-17-2006 at 07:53 PM

Just take your copy of FOURWHEELER in to 4Wheel Parts and have them price match what their competitors are charging for Mickey Thompson's ATZ's:

National Tire and Wheel has LT265sx16s listed at $136 a tire.

www.ntwonline.com

For that price, there's no reason to buy another BFGoodrich AT. :bounce:

Press Release:
Mickey Thompson? Introduces The Baja ATZ? Radial!

A New Line of All Terrain Radial Light Truck Tires
Stow, Ohio - The newest generation and technology in all-terrain tires from Mickey Thompson! The Baja Radial ATZ offers a smooth ride with aggressive looks and functionality. The perfect tire for everyday drivers and weekend off-roaders.

The Baja ATZ Radial Features:

* Sizes for most light truck and S.U.V. applications - from the traditional 30x9.50R15LT, all the way up to the giant sized 40x13.50R20LT

* Variable sized, interlocking tread-lugs for quieter, smoother ride and excellent handling

* Enhanced Sidebiters? for a more aggressive look in an all terrain and better off-road traction

* "Stone-Kickers" built in between each shoulder lug to disperse rocks and gravel

* Newest technology in construction delivers ride, handling, low road noise, and long mileage

* Siped tread-lugs for excellent all weather driving

For more info on Mickey Thompson Tires visit:

www.mickeythompsontires.com
or call (330) 928-9092.

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by Ken Cooke]

David K - 4-18-2006 at 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Here you go - http://fourwheelparts.com/4wp/products/productLine.asp?cat=T... .

Three stores in San Diego County.

Have you checked the prices on those tires? I don't think they'll qualify for "easy to swallow price".

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by Roberto]

Thanks Roberto, yes... I called them... the tires in your link are all bigger than my needs, perhaps why they exceed the $165 mark?

David K - 4-18-2006 at 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Just take your copy of FOURWHEELER in to 4Wheel Parts and have them price match what their competitors are charging for Mickey Thompson's ATZ's:

National Tire and Wheel has LT265sx16s listed at $136 a tire.

www.ntwonline.com

For that price, there's no reason to buy another BFGoodrich AT. :bounce:

[Edited on 4-18-2006 by Ken Cooke]

Thanks Ken, I saw them in JP Magazine, but no prices were shown... I think I am going with the Coopers... Both the Mickey Thompson and Dick Cepek tires are slightly taller (75s vs. 70) and I don't want to mess with my speedometer as it is right on (for mapping Baja roads). I will try and look at them all today...

Ken Cooke - 4-18-2006 at 04:35 PM

Let us all know what you decided on... :?:

and the winner is.........................

David K - 4-18-2006 at 07:59 PM

COOPER Discoverer STTs

I went to Four Wheel Parts, Off Road Wharehouse, and made calls...

Express Tire was the only place that actually had a tire to show me of the 3-4 candidates... It was the exact size I was seeking, and very close, albeit slightly above to my price range' top end of $165... ($169.99).

I will tell you how well or poorly the other places handled my quest, later...

[Edited on 4-19-2006 by David K]

Bob H - 4-19-2006 at 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
COOPER Discoverer STTs

[Edited on 4-19-2006 by David K]

David, from the looks of the photo... that tire looks great, but I would ask about how much noise they might make. There is nothing worse than noisey tires, in my opinion.
Bob H

TMW - 4-19-2006 at 07:18 AM

David if your Toyota has the wheel well clearance I'd recommend going for an LT285 size tire. It's basically equil to a 33x11.50 where as the LT265 is a 32x10.50. I put them on my chevy and GMC and they made a big difference in the sand and they wear longer. Of course the price is higher.

David K - 4-19-2006 at 07:23 AM

That was my first question... and Baja Angel's too!

Unlike the 'monster mudder' tires that those raised trucks use which are as loud as a 747 flying overhead, Cooper has sound cancelling technology built into them... the 'bars' and 'recesses' are of differnet widths going around the tire. I expect them to be louder than the 'street-like' BFGs I have now, but not too bad...

They should be here Thursday PM... I will post photos.

[Edited on 4-19-2006 by David K]

David K - 4-19-2006 at 07:27 AM

Thanks TW, but they are already ordered and I wanted my odometer to not change, as well as the budget... so I stayed with 265/70-16.

By the way, they are 3 ply sidewalls, but 'newer technology construction' that will be 'better' than All Terrain T/As 3 ply sidewalls.

David K - 4-20-2006 at 07:22 PM

Last look at the BFG Rugged Trail T/As with sidewall crack, at 24,850 miles and 8 months old...

A closer look...

David K - 4-20-2006 at 07:23 PM

Cooper Discoverer STT

David K - 4-20-2006 at 07:28 PM

So, I now have some good 'shoes' for my 4X4!

They do 'hum' driving, but not obnoxiously... Watch out Baja, here comes Tacoma with new tread.

The sand test will be how far I get without deflating on Shell Island or how much deflation is needed to 'float'.

Then I think a drive into Mision Santa Maria is in order! :light:

David K - 4-20-2006 at 07:42 PM

Yes, 3 ply sidewalls... I will play around with tire pressure for the best 'feel'...

Toyota recommends 29 front, 32 rear on my truck.

The BFGs were rated for max. 35 PSI.

The Coopers are rated for max. 50 PSI.

Any opinion on how much air I should run highway driving?

The 4 Wheel Parts place had a fellow who didn't really know anything about tires, even though his fellow counter workers were all there, nobody came to his aid to help him answer my questions... Rate them near 0.

Off Road Warehouse had someone with some knowledge, but no tires to show me I was seeking... and they get whatever tire I wanted but from some middleman distributor. I will go back there for shocks or lights, not tires.

Express Tires had what I was considering for me to look at and touch, and that counted big time. I have had good experience with Cooper before, and I know other Cooper customers who were all happy. They are American made... (the only bad thing? :lol:

). Just kidding...

Frank - 4-20-2006 at 08:22 PM

Wow its starting to look like a truck :biggrin:

Just messing with ya DK. Great looking tires, and your truck is ok too :smug:

David K - 4-20-2006 at 08:29 PM

Thanks Frank... time will tell how these tires really do, and I will report the truth... as I do with my new Toyota's problems (if I ever have any) :yes:

Frank - 4-20-2006 at 08:42 PM

Now you need one of these. It will push the cows under the truck :lol:

Ken Cooke - 4-20-2006 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Last look at the BFG Rugged Trail T/As with sidewall crack, at 24,850 miles and 8 months old...

David,

That is not a crack, it is a cut from something sharp you must have driven over on the trail. Perhaps a creosote branch or something. Those cracks are not too much of a concern since the cuts are superficial. However, depending on the sidewall thickness, it could turn into a problem later on down the line.

At any rate, a new set of tires was sorely in order.

You will want your tires to sit 'square' on the pavement - not so much air pressure that they ride on the center of the tire, and not so little that your tires have a 'squishy' ride either. So, right around 28-32 p.s.i. you might find a happy medium. There is the ubiquitous chalk test to measure correct air pressure. But, recommended tire pressures typically cover this. Have fun with those new meats and I hope they float real well across Shell Island.

David K - 4-21-2006 at 07:40 AM

Thanks Ken!

If nothing else, they sure look good!

Bob H - 4-21-2006 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks Ken!

If nothing else, they sure look good!

David they surely do look good and I don't think you will need to air down at all. I didn't air down at all on our Matomi run a couple of years ago and did fine. Your new tires are much meatier than mine are now. You will have a blast with those new tires.
Bob H :yes:

[Edited on 4-21-2006 by Bob H]

bajataco - 4-23-2006 at 11:20 PM

Great choice David! I am very happy with my STT's so far. I have been able to test them in Baja, and also some snow driving, rain driving, and rock crawling. I am happy.

Nice looking tires...

They stick well on the rocks...

David K - 4-24-2006 at 07:39 AM

Oh great... I am happy to hear that!

BajaTaco.com and VivaBaja.com both using Cooper STTs...

David K - 4-24-2006 at 07:22 PM

Chris, what are the tire pressures you have discovered work best for: Highway, Deep Sand, Wash board... ???

I first tried the recommended 29/32 (front/ rear psi) that worked on the BFGs fine. That was too low for the Cooper STTs as it gave a sloppy feel.

I now have them at 40 psi and the feel great driving.

Have you driven in deep sand with them, yet?

Thanks amigo!

PS If your winshield sign guy has measured the new Tacomas, have him contact me... He didn't have the measurements for the newer ones when we emailed...

comitan - 4-24-2006 at 07:33 PM

David

First note that I have BFG's and am very happy with them. Now you are saying that the pressure you used on the BFG's is not enough for the Coopers that would lead me to beleive that the Cooper Sidewalls are not as stiff (strong) and by the way my BFG's call for a tire pressure of 50lbs but have sttled on 45 for Hwy.

David-----

Barry A. - 4-24-2006 at 07:52 PM

----On my Isuzu Trooper with BFG-AT's (load range C) (235 x 15) I run them at 30 on the road, 40 if heavily loaded, and 25 in the dirt, and down to 12 in the sand. Never had any problem with them.

On my F-250 long bed with heavy Callen Camper (1000 lbs.), I run the BFG-AT's (load range C)(285 x 16) at 50 on the road, and about 35 in the dirt, and down to about 15 in the sand-----again, never had any problems with them at all.

All in all I love the BFG's.

Ken Cooke - 4-24-2006 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
David

First note that I have BFG's and am very happy with them.

I ran both the ATs and the MTs from November '05 through February '06, and they were nothing but trouble - with a capital 'T'.

The ATs spun in the swamp leading to Mision Sta. Maria making me wonder if I'd have to winch myself through. The ATs and MTs squirmed at moderate speed (35-45 m.p.h.) on washboard and dirt roads, and to make things worse, I blew a brand new MT sidewall out while flexing on some rocks. :?:

Not impressed, I sold the BFGs and run my 'Made in Mexico' Interco TrXus MTs...

And the love affair with a plethora of tires continues------

Barry A. - 4-24-2006 at 08:21 PM

:lol:

Ken Cooke - 4-24-2006 at 08:23 PM

p.s. - When I ran the BFG ATs, they ran like I had 4 pillows under my Jeep. Quiet and soft as a feather.

But, when I switched to the BFG MTs, it felt like the tires were stuffed with rocks. They were just as noisy as my old bias Super Swamper SXs I used to run, but with less traction. I guess its a loyalty thing. Those Coopers sound like a great deal and I'm watching to see what David says about them...

Ken Cooke - 4-24-2006 at 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
:lol:

Shhh! Don't tell the wife!!! :cool:

David K - 4-25-2006 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
David

First note that I have BFG's and am very happy with them. Now you are saying that the pressure you used on the BFG's is not enough for the Coopers that would lead me to beleive that the Cooper Sidewalls are not as stiff (strong) and by the way my BFG's call for a tire pressure of 50lbs but have sttled on 45 for Hwy.

Gracias ...

Keep in mind that when I say BFGs, I am talking about the Rugged Trail T/As that Toyota puts on the TRD trucks I got.

They were rated for a max. of 35 psi on the tire.

The Cooper STTs are load range C with a max. pressure on the tire of 50 psi.

As I said earlier, they are now at 40 psi and seem to be doing fine on the highway... feels good, anyway.

I would like to hear back from bajataco as to what he has experienced with pressure on his Tacoma using the STTs.

[Edited on 4-25-2006 by David K]

comitan - 4-25-2006 at 05:07 PM

David

I bought the BFG's here in La Paz $106 ea incl mtg. balance,tax, no other charges they are load range C, they are all terrain T/A KO they also say 3ply sidewall medium letters on sidewall, I'm wonering if they might be selling a different tire down here. Also if you look at all the vehicles down here that have A/T tires my guess 85% are useing BFG.

OFFCOURSE2 - 4-26-2006 at 09:45 AM

I am a Cooper dealer here in Florida the Cooper sst is a good tire but by far the most popular offroad tire here is a ProComp they make four different offroad tires in the U.S. everyone tells me they make a lot less noise than any other tire ,last longer & ride better. sizing might be a problem (they tend towards bigger tires) check their website they have a conversoin calculator

Geronimo - 4-26-2006 at 09:41 PM

The ultimate tire for BAJA, the BFG Baja TA. They are rough riding; don?t last long, extremely heavy, loud, and very expensive. They flat spot when left parked for a couple of days, and the best tires I have ever run. I was killing BFG muds, went through about six after the suspension was redone. I air these down to 5 psi on the 3700lbs XJ and they act like paddles in the sand, carves like rails at 75mph on fire roads with about 15 psi. The side walls make tire guys cry they are so thick. I run ATs on my Ranger, drive a lot slower and they are holding up very well!

[Edited on 4-27-2006 by Geronimo]

[Edited on 4-27-2006 by Geronimo]

roverdude - 4-27-2006 at 07:01 AM

Sure these are the best. But what is the retail price?

TMW - 4-27-2006 at 07:08 AM

Most people forget it's cost per mile not cost per tire. I use and like BFGs but the tires used on the winning race teams are not BFG TA KOs, they are BFG project tires. Many race teams do use standard BFG tires, but the project tires are made for racing in the desert not for 50,000 mile highway driving.

David K - 4-27-2006 at 07:15 AM

"The ultimate tire for BAJA, the BFG Baja TA. They are rough riding; don?t last long, extremely heavy, loud, and very expensive. They flat spot when left parked for a couple of days, and the best tires I have ever run."

I think you should try something else, unless you just like to punish yourself!!

On BFGs (All Terrain and Mud Terrain): Yes, they are the most popular Baja tire now-a-days... But being popular does not make them 'the best', just the most common.

As I said at the start of this thread, I was seeking a Baja tire for my needs and was hoping that might be an American or at least non-French tire (Michelin & BFG).

The Coopers may fit the bill, I will let you know how they do on various surfaces... On the highway (up to 80 mph) they are good.

bajataco - 4-27-2006 at 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I would like to hear back from bajataco as to what he has experienced with pressure on his Tacoma using the STTs.

Hi David,

Keep in mind that the following pressures are for a 32"x11.5"x15" Cooper STT tire on a '98 Tacoma that weighs roughly 5,100-5,400 lbs. depending on payload. I run 34-35 psi on the street. For trail use, I run anywhere from 20-24 psi for mild trails depending on the surface conditions. For very technical trails on rocks and dirt, or the occassional severely corrugated (or "washboard") roads, I will go down to 17-18 psi. For sand or mud, if 17-18 psi is not performing well enough, I will go way down to 12-14 psi. You asked if I had been in deep sand with the Coopers yet. The answer is that I have been in fairly deep sand, and the tires did great. However I wouldn't say that it was REALLY deep sand, because I was able to run the coopers at about 16-17 psi and didn't get stuck.

A note regarding sand:

I just posted on another forum where a guy was asking about recommended pressure to use on his 80 series Landcruiser pulling a small-ish camp trailer (1,000 lbs or so) on a beach/sand trip. Here is what I answered:

The size of tire, type of tire, and the weight of the vehicle are all factors. Larger tires can usually afford to run lower pressures than smaller tires. For your 80 series, if you are using 32" or 33" tires, I would say that you could go down to 10-12 psi without an issue. BUT, what I would do is try running a little higher psi first (say, 15-17 psi), and if you find yourself bogging too much, then let some more air out. If it is a scenario where you can't even risk a bog and loss of momentum (i.e. crossing a flat at low tide) then I would go down to 12 psi, or even 10 psi if you want to take a little more chance on the bead in trade for a little more traction insurance. The reason I say to try a little higher pressure first is more for the sake of convenience. Typically if I am driving in the sand on a trip, it's only for a small segment or portion of my total trail time. I don't want to run regular dirt tracks with super low sand pressures, so if I can get by with a compromise pressure then I don't have to mess with airing up and down every time I enter and exit the sand. (Don't use this compromise pressure though if there is risk of getting stuck below the tide line, or if your engine or trans. will overheat easily).

For the trailer, my guess is that since the trailer is very light and likely on the same size tires as your 80, that you can go to the very low end of the pressure range - 10-12 psi or even lower (8 psi) with no issues. The trailer likely won't be heavy enough to damage the bead, and won't have power to the axles that could "spin" the tires on the bead.

For anyone wanting some kind of idea what to use in the sand, I suggest a little test in your driveway right before you leave for a road trip, so the vehicle has a typical "full" trip load on it. Measure the distance from the ground to the bottom of your wheel rim at full street pressure. Then let air out until you have reduced this height measurement to 75% of what it is at street pressure. This will likely be the sand pressure you want to go with.

Don't underestimate the "power" that small increments of air can make once you get down really low - around the upper 'teens (psi) and going down from there. After getting down past 18 psi or so, the percentage of increase in tire footprint length really starts to jump - even with 1 psi difference. So, while you are airing down for the test above, take the test one step further. After you have aired down the tire to about 20 psi or so, start recording the length of the footprint of the tire by sliding a piece of paper in front of the tire and behind the tire until the paper stops against the tread. Then measure the distance between the two pieces of paper. Continue to let air out of the tires, maybe a 2 pounds at a time, and re-measure the footprint length. You may be surprised. For example, on my Tacoma - at 34 psi my footprint is about 6 1/2" long. At 18 psi, it increases to 7 7/8" (21% increase). At 12 psi, it ends up at about 10 1/2" long (62% increase!) Percentage-wise, that's only about 1.3% per lb. for the pressures between 34 and 18 psi. Then it jumps to an average of 5.5% per lb. for the pressures between 18 and 12 psi. Anyway, play with it on your own tires and you will see what I am talking about.

If you have a light vehicle with really stout sidewalls, you may reach a point of diminishing return, where the footprint fails to increase in length, and all you are doing by running pressure below that point is increasing your chance of breaking the bead (or seal) between your tire and the wheel.

bajalou - 4-27-2006 at 02:58 PM

Great post and advise bajataco

bajataco - 4-27-2006 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitanNow you are saying that the pressure you used on the BFG's is not enough for the Coopers that would lead me to beleive that the Cooper Sidewalls are not as stiff (strong) and by the way my BFG's call for a tire pressure of 50lbs but have sttled on 45 for Hwy.

When you say your BFG?s call for a tire pressure of 50lbs. ? you are likely referring to the pressure required to achieve the maximum load rating of the tire. Unless you intend to roll a vehicle that weighs as much as the maximum load rating of the tires, the 50 psi listed is very different from the actual pressure you will want to use for your normal street pressure. The recommended tire pressures for an OEM size tire on an OEM weight vehicle can be found in a typical car owner?s manual, or often on a decal located on the door jamb. This is the pressure that should be used for a point of reference. In the event that you change to a heavier gross vehicle weight, and/or a larger tire size, or a different tread type, load rating, etc. then you can adjust the OEM recommended pressures as necessary.

I think what David is experiencing with running a higher pressure on his new Cooper STT?s vs. his old BFG A/T?s is quite natural. (I doubt the sidewalls on the Coopers are less strong than the BFG?s. They are 3-ply and utilize a cross-angled ply construction to increase the strength.) With my old BFG A/T's I would run them at 32 psi. Since the lugs on a tire like the Cooper STT's are bigger and have a softer compound, they add more rolling resistance (and consequently worse fuel economy), so I run a bit higher pressure with these types of tires. If you run a pressure higher than necessary (like the pressure stamped on the side of the tire) then you will get uneven treadwear (center will wear while outers will not) less road contact, and the ride will be cruddy. On the flip-side, too low of a pressure will result in increased sidewall wear, possible cupping of the tread, excessive heat, and poor fuel economy.

Here is one method of determining a good pressure for street driving: http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/onroadtireguide.ht...

comitan - 4-27-2006 at 04:27 PM

Taco

Thanks for the info and the website very informative, If someone goes into it they should go into home many sections very helpful.

David K - 4-27-2006 at 05:47 PM

Thank you so much Chris... This is of great help to myself and other Nomads!

The answer rates right up there with the quality of your web site http://www.bajataco.com

Geronimo - 4-27-2006 at 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by roverdude
Sure these are the best. But what is the retail price?

about $365 ea for the 33x10.50's, I don't pay nearly that much. I get them from BFG through their motorsports program. When I started running the BAJA's I was simply running to hard for a DOT tire The Baja's have a seven ply sidewall. To answer your question I could not afford to run these on the street. The XJ in the pic will be a trailered rig after its current reincarnation.

bajataco - 4-27-2006 at 07:28 PM

Hey, you are welcome guys, glad I could help.

Thanks for the compliment on the website David

Great post to follow!

Hook - 5-2-2006 at 02:04 PM

I must say, David, I am really surprised how little treadwear you got on those original BFG tires. Looks like they would be gone in 30k.

I run my tires very close to their max rating on the hwy., usually about 5psi from the max. They ride stiffer but they last much longer. Then, IF they tend to be wearing more in the center, I will let a little more out to slow the center wearing down.

My experience has been that I get longer treadwear from running tires at/near max pressure (and discarding when the center gets too thin) than running them at an even-wearing pressure.

I like the Michelin LTX MS (load range E); it appears I will get nearly 50k miles on a 1 ton truck with about 70% driving with a 2500lb Lance on the back. Very quiet on the road. REALLY IMPRESSED! But I clearly do little off hwy driving with all that weight.

About 165/tire for a 265/75/16.

comitan - 5-19-2006 at 12:50 PM

Something else to look at in tires.

http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/

No more Cooper Discoverer STTs on my truck...

David K - 8-23-2007 at 08:36 PM

Well the front pair were replaced a couple months ago and had 32,000 miles on them. The back pair I replaced yesterday and they gave me 38,000 miles... All in all, not bad for a mud tire!

The new tires are TOYO Open Country A/Ts (from Express Tire, same place I got the Coopers).

Here's my evaluation of the Cooper Discoverer STT tire...

GOOD POINTS

1) They looked great... real beefy off road look and had a true 3 ply sidewall. Made in the USA.

2) Never got a flat or lost any air. I did find a rock cut and some steel was poking out and that is why I replaced the front pair at 32,000 miles.

3) Excellent in mud and rocks... Laguna Salada wet was no problem and neither was the road to Mision Santa Maria.

BAD POINTS

1) NOISY as Hell!

2) Terrible in sand unless pressure lowered to 10 PSI. I nicknamed them 'gravediggers' the first time on Shell Island with them! Once lowered to 10 PSI then they were fine... other tires I have used required lowering to just 20 to 15 PSI to float well.

3) No warranty for mileage... However, at 32-38K miles, they still did better than BFG Rugged Trails that came with the Tacoma (replaced at 24K).

TOYO is now on the TOYOta... and I will give a full report at any event or when they get replaced!

By the way, my '05 Tacoma just turned 2 years old this month and has 63,000 miles on it! Oh, what a feeling! :yes:

As reported when they came up, the only issues I had was noisey brakes when it was just a few months old, but ended with new pads... and the soft rear suspension which I am modifying with bigger shocks and air bags...

No motor or drivetrain issues at all... love it! :bounce:

[Edited on 8-25-2007 by David K]

Sharksbaja - 8-23-2007 at 08:42 PM

Welcome to da club! I could probably squeeze another 10 k outta these M/Ts but I think I'll not wait. About the same as you David, 38k on these Toyos.

btw, those ATs are the quietest "big tire" I've ever owned David. Low noise and good wet weather adhesion. But as for traction the MTs are a world better.

[Edited on 8-24-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Ken Cooke - 8-23-2007 at 10:48 PM

My Mexican-made Interco TrXus MTs are roughly at 30,000 miles, and I will probably replace them within the next 5,000 miles due to some alignment issues which put a huge dent in the treadlife of the front axle tires. My next set of tires will be the 34" TrXus MTs because they are great on the rocks/sand/wet pavement, offer a smooth ride, and the sidewalls are virtually bulletproof. David K - you should have given these a chance! :light:

bajataco - 8-24-2007 at 10:46 AM

Thanks for the updates guys. It's always fun to see what people are using and what they're experiences are.

David, good luck with the Toyos. I think you'll be happy.

Congrats on 2 successful years! Next month will make 10 years for my trusty Tacoma.

Don Alley - 8-24-2007 at 11:17 AM

I just put Toyo Open Country ATs on my Frontier. I ran over some hunk of metal that ruined one of the BFG Long Trail TAs, and they had 34000 miles on them so I needed to make a quick choice on new tires or run without a spare.

I've used Coopers for years, but was put off by DK's assesment that they were noisy. Although I almost went with the Michelens.

Another factor: the Nissan I just bought with 34000 miles had an optional feature we had overlooked. Each wheel had a special lug nut that needed a special wrench, as an anti-theft device. But no such wrench was sold with the truck. My Cooper dealer said they could not remove the wheels, nor could the Nissan dealer. Les Schwabe removed, and replaced, all four of the pesky (and unwanted) nuts for free. Nice. And I liked their Toyos and bought them.

But unfortinately I could not hold out long enough to get Free Beef with my tires. :lol:

Barry A. - 8-24-2007 at 04:27 PM

Don Alley--------

I have a 2007 Nissan X-terra "off road" model with those anti-theft lug nuts. The tool for their removal was/is packed with the jack under the rear seat in mine, and it is hard to see.

Don Alley - 8-24-2007 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Don Alley--------

I have a 2007 Nissan X-terra "off road" model with those anti-theft lug nuts. The tool for their removal was/is packed with the jack under the rear seat in mine, and it is hard to see.

Not mine. The previous owners (fleet operation) apparently removed it from the car.

David K - 8-24-2007 at 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajataco
Thanks for the updates guys. It's always fun to see what people are using and what they're experiences are.

David, good luck with the Toyos. I think you'll be happy.

Congrats on 2 successful years! Next month will make 10 years for my trusty Tacoma.

Yup, 2 years with the '05 four door and 5 years of outstanding performance with my '01 xtra cab 2 door Tacoma... That's 7 happy Baja proven Toyota years for me!

David K - 11-23-2008 at 05:42 PM

Okay... another set of tires tried!

The Toyo Open Country A/Ts have been replaced... Although there still was many miles of tread left, the amount was getting pretty low for secure off road and 'flat proof' driving. In fact, I picked up a screw somewhere and noticed it at Bahia Santa Maria... the leak was tiny and it didn't need to be repaired before I got home.

The Toyos were purchased in pairs, 6,000 miles apart replacing the Cooper Discoverer STTs that were just way noisey (but looked so cool).

Even with 6,000 miles between them, they looked about the same with just over 22,000 miles on one pair and 28,000 miles on the other pair. This makes them no better on wear than the BFG Rouged Trails that came on the truck when new.

Time for a change... sort of:

Back to Cooper (the American made tire company) and this time with their Discoverer ATR truck tire...

So, here is a quick history of tires on my '05 Tacoma:

BFG Rugged Trails 0-25,000 miles

Cooper Discoverer STTs 25,000-60,000 (57K & 63K) miles

Toyo Open Country A/Ts 60,000 (57K & 63K)-85,000 miles

Cooper Discoverer ATRs: 85,000 - ?

So far, they are quiet on the road!

[Edited on 11-24-2008 by David K]

comitan - 11-23-2008 at 06:54 PM

We'll read about how you got stuck on shell beach, then what!!!

rts551 - 11-23-2008 at 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Okay... another set of tires tried!

The Toyo Open Country A/Ts have been replaced... Although there still was many miles of tread left, the amount was getting pretty low for secure off road and 'flat proof' driving. In fact, I picked up a screw somewhere and noticed it at Bahia Santa Maria... the leak was tiny and it didn't need to be repaired before I got home.

The Toyos were purchased in pairs, 6,000 miles apart replacing the Cooper Discoverer STTs that were just way noisey (but looked so cool).

Even with 6,000 miles between them, they looked about the same with just over 22,000 miles on one pair and 28,000 miles on the other pair. This makes them no better on wear than the BFG Rouged Trails that came on the truck when new.

Time for a change... sort of:

Back to Cooper (the American made tire company) and this time with their Discoverer ATR truck tire...

So, here is a quick history of tires on my '05 Tacoma:

BFG Rugged Trails 0-25,000 miles

Cooper Discoverer STTs 25,000-60,000 (57K & 63K) miles

Toyo Open Country A/Ts 60,000 (57K & 63K)-85,000 miles

Cooper Discoverer ATRs: 85,000 - ?

So far, they are quiet on the road!

[Edited on 11-24-2008 by David K]

I just hate it when the spelling police can't spell. ie noisey, Rouged.

David K - 11-24-2008 at 12:26 AM

Baja place name spelling teacher, not police... I am totally friendly about teaching the correct way to spell places in Baja!

Trying to spell English words correctly, all the time? Forget it!!! LOL :lol:

TMW - 11-24-2008 at 08:37 AM

I replaced the BFG Rugged Trails on my 07 Tacoma at 15,000 with Cooper Discover ATRs and I have 27,000 (12,000 on the ATRs) and frankly it looks like they will get replaced at about 35,000-40,000, (15,000 to 20,000 on the tires). Then I'm back to BFG TA KO. I also don't like the ATRs traction in the snow compared to the TA KOs.

David K - 11-24-2008 at 09:39 AM

Thanks TW... It looks like it will do fine in sand... I will let everyone know.

The Toyos worked at 15 psi. The Cooper STTs at 10 psi.

comitan - 11-24-2008 at 09:46 AM

:no:

all terrain pro-comps

BAJACAT - 11-24-2008 at 09:28 PM

This are my new Baja shoes, so far I have only take them to Laguna Hanson,but they will be test it on the 09 Matomi trip and then on my March Baja trip to Loreto..

They are 35"X12.50 R17

This is neither pro nor con, just info.

vgabndo - 11-25-2008 at 01:24 PM

While cutting firewood in an area of burned Juniper and the occasional Mountain Mahagany, I arrived back at the pavement with a low tire. Upon checking I found the interesting damage below, and subsequently learned that the tire was irreparable. $100.00 with a 50/50 wear guarantee at Costco. BFG All Terrain T/A

The stick was about 7/16" in diameter. Rear tire. :no:

Three ply sidewall, but wouldn't that damge be right through all the steel belts?

[Edited on 11-25-2008 by vgabndo]

1015081703-02.jpg - 21kB

David K - 11-25-2008 at 01:34 PM

Hi Perry,

Why I don't use BFG T/As is I have seen more sidewall punctures on them than standard 2 ply sidewalls... Don't understand why, but me thinks the sidwall plys on BFG T/As are not that strong, not steel either... ?

Bummer on the puncture... Amo Pescar had a stick go through his brand new BFG T/As on the road to Yubay back in '01.

Edit: The Cooper STT 3 ply sidewalls (told to me to be superior to BFGs from a dealer that sells both) are polyester:

ARMOR-TEK3 CARCASS CONSTRUCTION
Cooper's STT is now 33% stronger in the sidewalls and 2.5 times more resistant to tearing. It's the heavy duty carcass that makes the new STT so special. In a normal 4WD tyre there are rubber gaps between the sidewall cords. The rubber gaps are the weakest point of the tyre. A nail, a stake or sharp outback grass can push against the sidewall cord, deflect off and penetrate through the weakest point, (the rubber) and you get a flat. What Cooper has done is reduce the rubber gaps by taking its outstanding 2 ply STT and added a third ply on an angle (as 8 degree angle). It's called Armor-Tek3 technology and it's unique to Cooper. While some other 4WD tyres have three plies, none of them have the Armor-Tek3 angle ply.

[Edited on 11-25-2008 by David K]

[Edited on 11-26-2008 by David K]

discvr_STT_Cutaway.jpg - 28kB

pappy - 11-25-2008 at 02:58 PM

david - i am on my second set of those coopers-best tire for what we do since those tru-tracs you speak of. i've gone thru nfg's and goodyears fast and with sidewall or wear issues. the cooper just keeps on trcukin. i got over 40k on my first set without any issues.i think you'll be happy with them..

rts551 - 11-25-2008 at 04:10 PM

Everyone has their own story. Had ATR's on my F250. 5K replaced one for chunking. Dealer said it was the way I drive. 10k 2nd tire chunking. Dealer said it was the roads I drove on. 15k. 2nd replaced tire split. 50% money back and replaced them with BFG's. 20K. no more problems

TMW - 11-25-2008 at 07:07 PM

I think any side wall puncher and the tire needs replaced because a patch will not flex with the tire properly. There is very little flex in the tread area in comparison.

Luck of the draw

Ken Cooke - 11-29-2008 at 08:55 AM

During the 7 day Baja Grande this year, the only tire failure was with my 1 yr. old set of Interco TrXus MTs. Unbelieveable! I actually had a large thorn puncture the shoulder area of the sidewall/tread, causing the tire to lose air pressure overnight while camped in Gonzaga Bay at Campo Beluga. I have 2 spares - 1 of which will be mounted and balanced instead of purchasing another new TrXus MT. My next set will be the BFG MT/KM2 since these ride smoothly and quietly like All-Terrains, but with improved sidewalls, and stick like "glue" on the rocks (according to Ron) who attended Baja Grande '08.

Bob and Susan - 11-29-2008 at 12:08 PM

you guys better be buying the road hazard policy when you purchase these expensive tires :wow:

Ken Cooke - 11-29-2008 at 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
you guys better be buying the road hazard policy when you purchase these expensive tires :wow:

TrXus MT repaired at local Goodyear Tire Center - free of charge!

David K - 11-29-2008 at 07:25 PM

Ken... please, your Baja Grande Trip Report + photos... we are waiting! :bounce:

This year was as crazy as the last

Ken Cooke - 11-29-2008 at 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ken... please, your Baja Grande Trip Report + photos... we are waiting! :bounce:

I have someone to call in half an hour. Tomorrow morning, I'll get started on everything. It took 2 hrs. to clean up the Jeep, and it still isn't 100% clean yet. I didn't wake up until almost 1 p.m. Mañana, amigo...

marek - 11-30-2008 at 10:53 AM

We run the Toyo Open Country M/T on our truck. I suspect I'll get about 35,000-40,000 miles out of them and they take a beating. Our truck is heavy and we run them soft for miles on end. On this last trip, we sustained a slash from the rim to the tread on the sidewall that was probably about a half an inch deep. No leaks, no worries.

For an agressive tread, they are relatively quiet on the road. Traction is excellent, and as long as you don't goose it too hard in the sand, they float over just about everything.

I honestly can say that I probably won't purchase another type of tire for this truck.

David K - 11-30-2008 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marek
We run the Toyo Open Country M/T on our truck. I suspect I'll get about 35,000-40,000 miles out of them and they take a beating. Our truck is heavy and we run them soft for miles on end. On this last trip, we sustained a slash from the rim to the tread on the sidewall that was probably about a half an inch deep. No leaks, no worries.

For an agressive tread, they are relatively quiet on the road. Traction is excellent, and as long as you don't goose it too hard in the sand, they float over just about everything.

I honestly can say that I probably won't purchase another type of tire for this truck.

I would sure like to hear the Toyo M/T to compare to the Cooper Discoverer STT (almost the same type tread), which was very loud (even though their info said it was made with 'quiet technology'). They sure look good, however!

My Toyo A/Ts sure didn't provide the life I expected out of them... that's why I am trying the Cooper ATRs.

Thanks Marek!

Ken Cooke - 12-4-2008 at 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David KMy Toyo A/Ts sure didn't provide the life I expected out of them... that's why I am trying the Cooper ATRs.

How many miles did you get out of them?

Did you run these tires on dirt roads w/gravel, and lots of worn asphalt? That may have something to do with the mileage you got out of them. :!:

David K - 12-5-2008 at 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote:

Originally posted by David KMy Toyo A/Ts sure didn't provide the life I expected out of them... that's why I am trying the Cooper ATRs.

How many miles did you get out of them?

Did you run these tires on dirt roads w/gravel, and lots of worn asphalt? That may have something to do with the mileage you got out of them. :!:

Ken, go up about 20 replies for the answer, and photos of the three, after BFG... Here it is with some added details:

So, here is a quick history of tires on my '05 Tacoma:

BFG Rugged Trails 0-25,000 miles (ie. 25,000 miles)

Cooper Discoverer STTs 25,000-60,000 (57K & 63K) miles (ie. ~35,000 miles)

Toyo Open Country A/Ts 60,000 (57K & 63K)-85,000 miles (ie. ~25,000 miles)

Cooper Discoverer ATRs: 85,000 - ?

==========================================

Yes, I could have gotten perhaps 5,000 more miles out of them... But, I don't like having almost no tread on my tires... You are more suseptable to flats with less rubber... gas milage and traction is also reduced. I am running the recommended pressure for the load, and have my alignment checked and adjusted if needed.

As for what I drive on... the same roads and highways as the rest of us in San Diego... all very good, no pot holes, etc. Only the trips to Baja to give them a bit of dirt... not a big enough % to matter in the whole life of the tire.

I would like to hear from other Tacoma owners an honest mileage their tires last. My previous ('01) Tacoma also required new tires at ~30,000 miles +/-. 2 sets of BFG Rugged Trail T/As & 2 sets of Cooper/ Futura Dakotas.

Because 98% of the time I am on pavement, the tire that is quiet running is more important than the really cool looking (STT, MT, etc.) off road tires... Most of my four wheeling is in deep sand (Shell Island), and a highway tread works much better at floating than an aggressive mud tread, which digs into the sand.

tripledigitken - 12-5-2008 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Because 98% of the time I am on pavement, the tire that is quiet running is more important than the really cool looking (STT, MT, etc.) off road tires... Most of my four wheeling is in deep sand (Shell Island), and a highway tread works much better at floating than an aggressive mud tread, which digs into the sand.

I agree with that statement completely. Driving our Xterra 95% on asphalt roads at highway speed, road noise and longevity are my 2 top priorities. I have been running Michelin tires for years and without exception I get over 50,000 miles on 4 wheel drive vehicles.

F250 4x4 diesel with 10' camper
Toyota SR5 PU 4x4

Both of these had/have LTX m&s

I currently am trying their new AT/2's which have a little more agressive tread but are as quiet, and with 20,000 miles they are sure to last at least another 30,000 miles as well.

I just went through Titus Canyon in Death Valley over loose rock and some soft sand and they performed well.

Ken

David K - 12-5-2008 at 09:51 AM

Thanks Ken... my web host uses them and loves them (Costco sells 'em).

Skipjack Joe - 12-5-2008 at 12:55 PM

Got about 60,000 miles on the Tacoma with BFG M/T tires. They went everywhere but were unbelievably noisey. Had them replaced with Michelin AT/2 tires from costco and now I can actually hear the engine. Did some 4WD driving so far but nothing serious. I'm expecting more than 60,000 miles on the Michelins. I don't think I could afford to replace tires every 25,000 miles.

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