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Amnesty

Barry A. - 5-20-2006 at 02:36 PM

Amnesty defined: "A general pardon for political offenses against a government"

To me, this means that all is forgiven----the slate is clean.

What the President (and others) are preposing is NOT a "general pardon"---it is a process by which illegals can obtain legality through deffinite accomplishments which take considerable effort, time, and money by them.

So why is the House (and many others) opposed to this plan, and say that the Pres. is granting "Amnesty". I don't understand-----it does not fit the deffinition.

Our legal system constantly depends on things like "Judicial guidelines", and "plea bargains" in deciding how CONVICTED criminals should be punished.

Is not what the Pres. is proposing just like a Plea bargain-----i.e. the illegals jump thru a prescribed set of hurtles as punishment, and then they can join the ranks of "legals", just like is laid out in a "plea bargain"?

When a Judge consults his "Judicial guidelines" to see what his options are in sentencing a convicted criminal, he sees what he can minimally do, or what is the max. he can do, to punish this individual. Isn't this very similar to what the Pres. is proposing-----i.e. you broke the law and now this is what the Judge/law says you have to do to correct the situation?

We as citizens except this all the time---------why do we now have a problem with the illegal aliens being treated the same way as other law breakers?? Why, in this particular case, do some of us insist that ONLY the most punitive of punishments be imposed without any mitigating factors taken into consideration?

Am I missing something here?

Of course it is not fair to the folks that have done things according to the law---------life is often not fair. Is it fair that many criminals are not punished as some think they deserve?? Probably not, but life is not fair----this stuff happens all the time in our legal system because of mitigating factors, and personal decisions by Judges.

I fail to see how this situation is any different----------lets get on with the Presidents plan for comprehensive reform of the Border situation, INCLUDING GAINING CONTROL OF THE BORDER WITH POSITIVE ACTION.

Bruce R Leech - 5-20-2006 at 03:46 PM

off topic this is U.S. politics not Baja Politics.

Bruce-----

Barry A. - 5-20-2006 at 03:50 PM

------you know, I considered that, but it seemed to me to meet the criteria of "Mexico related" so I put it in the Baja Forum-----------if this is not correct, I have no objection to Doug moving it--------I do not know how to do that, or even if I can.

Thanks for the heads-up, Bruce. I was kinda avoiding the crazy "Off Topic" forum, if you know what I mean. :yes:

TMW - 5-20-2006 at 05:06 PM

Barry I think it's taking a very complicated and somewhat explosive issue and using it for one's political gain on both sides. And that goes for both sides of the border.

Bruce R Leech - 5-20-2006 at 05:19 PM

Ok I withdraw :yawn:

the thing is.....

woody with a view - 5-20-2006 at 05:42 PM

if there is a method to gain acceptance (citizenship) why is there a different set of rules to attain it? whether a judge uses mandatory minimums or not is not a factor in "MY" side of this debate. if there is such a desire by the WORLD to come to this country, why do we give preference to our "border brothers?" what about all of the wannabe americans from overseas? why do they have to take a number at the back of the line?

is it just because they weren't born with the gift of picking vegetables? it makes me so mad to hear how "they" (whoever "they" are) only come to this country to work. that may be the case, but who runs the prisons in cali? the mexican mafia-that's who.

i heard that minnesota spends $189million/year on services for illegal aliens....nuff said!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 5-21-2006 by woody in ob]

[Edited on 5-21-2006 by woody in ob]

Bruce R Leech - 5-20-2006 at 06:09 PM

I don't care what anyone dose as long as it is legal. if they cant do it legal then they should just not do it ...

My wife would sure like to go to the U.S. to visit family but they wont give here a visa. you wont see us blowing up inter tubs and heading for the river. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2006 at 07:04 PM

Woody;
I must take exception with your use of "Picking Vegtables"

Have you ever Heard of Phillip Sanchez?

I was in the Central Valley of Califrnia during the time of Chavez and the Brown Berets.

Many of the people who had come over in the years past had sent their children to School and college while working in the fields; These same Children had obtained jobs in the Dept. Of Employment. It was known as the Labor Mafia-They would interview Mexicanos for Job Positions all over the Valley- they informed each Job applicant they sent to work that if they did not perform , go to School and take care of their families, they would be "Black Balled the next time they came in for another Job!

It worked very well as you know in the Mexican Culture-One who Speaks for another, takes that person Place and is held responsible by the Families.

I beleive that if an Accruate Survey were taken by "No Spin" people you would find a Large number of Mexicanos have done very well!!

It all walks of Life-Not just in the fields!!

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2006 at 07:11 PM

Another Point with Doug's Permission:

I just came from the Armed Forces Day Program at the heritage Room in Amarillo, Texas.

As I looked at all the Services - There were many Veterans of all Colors, As well as many Active Duty People-Mexicano, Black Women serving their county. Did you know that the State of Texas produces 1 of every 10 Serving in the in the Armed forces??

The Point is that "there are some Brave Men and Women who are fighting next to each other to Protect this Gread county and they are not-Field Hands!!

Skeet/Loreto
Anon The Preacher

Guilt, maybe?

Dave - 5-20-2006 at 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody in ob
if there is such a desire by the WORLD to come to this country, why do we give preference to our "border brothers?"

It's because we're complicit in the fact that they are here. If there weren't any "illegal" jobs offered there wouldn't be any "illegal" aliens.

skeet, ya gotta point...

woody with a view - 5-20-2006 at 08:29 PM

seems like everybody gotta point nowadays. sometimes i wear mine on the top of my head.

but i think that our citizenship outta be for the "BEST" qualified folks, and their generations to come....lo siento.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-21-2006 at 02:24 AM

Woody:
Somewhere along the Way from the 6o's forward, my Generation failed to instill in our Children, the Morals,Respect for each other that we as Depression Babies had taken for Granted!!
After the "Forgotten War" or "Police Action War" Money and Drugs became the important part of many of our Children"s Life.!
The Mexicanos crossing the Border at that time were looking for a "Better way of Life", The Farmers, Ranchers, Textile Factories were looking to make that money that so many had not Had in the Past!

The Riots in Watts began,Martin Luther King Jr., Chavez, and many others were obtaining Power and Rightfully so!
Parents were spending much of their Time working,not spending time with their Children-The Family unit was breaking down-Drugs and Money replaced Discipline.
I often try to find a Single thing that caused our country to become so Split!

I only come up with our Failures to instill into our children those Values that we had so proudly Held in the Past.
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"

jerry - 5-21-2006 at 07:54 AM

yup skeet im with you there and its a long way back with second and third generation instilling these false intidlments
wrong is right if you got the bucks

dont die wondering jerry

Meaningless Success Stories

MrBillM - 5-21-2006 at 09:09 AM

Back in 1995, I attended a symposium on illegal immigration at the Claremont Colleges. The advocate of relaxed immigration had just published a book advocating his position that was a collection of illegal immigrant success stories. When I had an opportunity to address a question/comment, I told him and the audience that his book was a meaningless collection of anecdotal tales that contained NO statistical breakdown of the "Immigration" effect. For every success story he recorded, I could point to an illegal immigrant in prison for heinous crimes. The ONLY thing that matters in this discussion are the STATS. Since then, these anecdotal examples have become "de rigueur" for politicos on both sides. Whenever we get into one of these discussions, each side trots out some family or families to make their point. What a Crock !

I'll repeat what I (and others) have said. There is NO need at this time for COMPREHENSIVE Immigration legislation. Both sides agree that the 11-12 million are here for awhile, at least. The important thing is to STOP the bleeding. Secure the border. Once Homeland Security certifies that the Border is secure, then we can begin to sort out the problem affecting the illegals already here. While we can construct some sort of Guest Worker program if we should find it in our best interests, there should be NO path to citizenship for any of the malefactors. To say that they will go to the back of the line is absurd since they would be allowed to stay, putting them AHEAD of every single person complying with the laws and waiting their turn.

Libs keep repeating the Canard that the illegals are ONLY doing work that Americans won't do. Last week, ICE arrested eight Los Angeles DWP employees from maintenance worker to Supervisors, the upper ones earning over $100K per year. I think that there are plenty of Americans who would take those jobs.

"Amnesty by any other Name, Stinks all the same"

Mr Bill----------

Barry A. - 5-21-2006 at 09:36 AM

---------I TOTALLY agree with everything you say here EXCEPT the part about "no path to citizenship by illegals"------when WE (the Govt.) are largely to blame for allowing them to come here, work, and set up their lives without enforcing our laws already on the books. I certainly see where you are coming from, but what in the world (realistically) are we going to do with the 10 to 12 million??? and their offspring???? I don't believe we can assume that they will just fade away------they won't. No matter how you slice it, that is a huge chunk of humanity!!!! And we just cannot leave them in limbo-----there has GOT to be some light at the end of their tunnel, IMHO.

We can draw the line in the sand NOW, and then go on from here (which is what I hear you saying) and enforce our laws strickly, but that still leaves the 10 to 12 million-----the 800 lb gorrilla sitting at the foot of your/our bed.

And, I still say, that by deffinition the President is NOT granting Amnesty------lets use some other word, but not "Amnesty", as that word just confuses the issue.

Definitions

MrBillM - 5-21-2006 at 10:05 AM

I note that the current line of advocacy now revolves around the Dictionary Definition. In addition to your thread, at least three advocates on today's news talk shows have been using that line. Apparently, some polling has gone on and made that the new catch phrase. It still looks like an Amnesty program to us. As far as what to do with the 11-12 million, its like the AAs say "one day at a time". The first thing we could do is write a software program for Social Security that would flag SS accounts that appear to be a result of a specific number being used by multiple users. That would net enough hits that ICE would be kept busy for quite awhile. Another immediate fix would be sweeps on the Day laborers hanging out on the streets soliciting construction work. We could solve a couple of problems there. Most of those are working for cash which means that the contractor is using unreported cash to pay them. Turn him over to the IRS so they can find out where his unreported cash is coming from. There are a host of enforcement actions we can perform which would chip away at the ones already here. It's not going to happen overnight, but at least we could move in the right direction.

Mr Bill------

Barry A. - 5-21-2006 at 10:16 AM

-------I can honestly say that I was not aware that others were saying the same thing that I am saying about the dictionary deffinition of "Amnesty"----------that is funny, to me. :lol:

I hope that these "others" are credible :lol:

The rest of what you say is "ENFORCEMENT" of existing laws, isn't it, which I TOTALLY agree with. That is where we should go from here (line in the sand concept).

So you DO believe that these actions you propose will just make the 12 million fade away???? Interesting. You may be right but I am VERY skeptical, and have serious doubts, but I am certainly no expert.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-21-2006 at 05:16 PM

Mr. Bill
I would like to see some of the Americans being out out of a Job!!
Most of the unemployed i have seen at the Malls cannot pass a Drug test to maintain a Job.
Here in The Panhandle of Texas there are Hundreds of Jobs not filled.
Tell me where are the Employers going to find someone to fill the Jobs!!
The Unions?
There are no americans with out Jobs-Just the Loafers, Drug Addicts, and Mall Hounds who do not want to work!!

Skeet/Loreto

Thinking it through

Dave - 5-21-2006 at 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
There are a host of enforcement actions we can perform which would chip away at the ones already here. It's not going to happen overnight, but at least we could move in the right direction.

Which is?

What do we then do with all the millions of out of work illegals? They ain't gonna go home willingly. Being without a job in the U.S. is a picnic compared to the same in Mexico.

The Longest Journey............

MrBillM - 5-21-2006 at 07:32 PM

Begins with a single step.

The attitude that bothers me most in the current debate is that which says the problem is simply too big to solve. We have to give in and accept the current situation and deal with it. Bull !

As I said, once the borders are secure, we begin enforcement activity under CURRENT law. It can be done and those we arrest WILL leave the country courtesy of La Migra. Once we jail a few Contractors and the IRS seizes their assets, the message will be heard. As far as the illegals who become unemployed as a result, they have the choice of leaving or becoming a law enforcement problem. Arrest, jail and deport them. It's a sad fact that a lot of good people are going to be eaten up by the system, but sometimes little people have to lose to make the big picture work.

Poco a Poco.

Got it right !!! Bill

beercan - 5-22-2006 at 07:08 AM

Enforce the current laws and stop the bleeding !!!!

Beercan & Mr. Bill-------

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 10:10 AM

--------ABSOLUTELY, enforce the current laws!!!!!!! and CONTROL THE BORDER.

and as for the 12 million, "---------arrest, jail, and deport them------" (?????) as Mr. BillM says?????-----------

Arrest 12 million people?????? Now think about that for a while, and then tell me where we are going to PUT 12 million people even if we string it out over the next 10 years------WE DON'T HAVE ANY PLACE TO PUT THAT MANY FOLKS (this is just one of a number of problems with that idea).

Get real, guys--------we really DO have to deal with these folks, no matter how infuriating it is, and arrest is NOT a viable, workable alternative!

The N-zi's tried that long ago with 1/2 that many folks, and guess what----------it did not work then, and it won't work now. And no, I am not comparing YOU with the N-zi's-----just the historical data from those times applied to todays problems. History IS the best teacher, as Neut G. says.

12 million people------think about that----------it IS a REAL problem!!!!----no matter how much you wish it was not. We simply have waited too long, and the problem will not fade away.

Barry

Barry, Barry, Barry.............

MrBillM - 5-22-2006 at 04:57 PM

Sometimes it seems like we are talking to a wall.

We don't need a place to jail 12 million or even 1.2 million per year. We arrest at a rate we can handle comfortably, charge them and streamline the deportation process so we can dump them back in Mexico or whatever other country they came from. We CAN do this. It's just a bunch of whiners like yourself that can't face up to the problem and it's usually due to factors other than those you profess.

For you, or anyone else, to draw a parallel with the current ILLEGAL ALIEN problem in the U.S. and that of N-ziGermany is IMBECILIC. Anyone who puts forth such a comparison is simply too stupid to have his or her views considered.

Yes, it has taken a long time for this problem to reach today's levels and, YES, it will take a long time for it to be resolved, but the answer is not to give these people a pass. It is to attack the problem squarely with the viewpoint that these are CRIMINALS who need to be rounded up and dealt with. Once we reach a certain point of control, I have no objections to a rational GUEST-WORKER program that ensures we know where these people are, that we collect the taxes and they LEAVE when they're supposed to.

GET CONTROL.

"AMNESTY by any other name, STINKS all the same".

bajalou - 5-22-2006 at 07:11 PM

Better hope Mexico doesn't do that with the people evading Customs duty.

Same old story, I'll do what I want but YOU have to obey the laws I like,

Mr. Bill--------

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 07:16 PM

-----Wow!!!! "IMBELICIC"????? and "too stupid", and a "whiner", and resembling a "wall"--------??????

Since I agree with about 95% of what you previously said (insults excluded) I certainly hope that these derogatory statements do not reflect back too badly on you. :lol:

And to think that the ex-Speaker of the House Ginghrich (sp?)must be all these things, too----------now that is something.

You know, now that you have expanded on your ideas, I see more merit to them than I originally thought, but I still do not buy them 100%, but I WILL think about them. It will be hard, tho, as I obviously have some serious mental problems, assuming that your analysis of me is correct.

I have no hidden agenda----what you read from me is what I am thinking-----nothing more----not sure what you were thinking on that one.

It is a shame that we who agree on almost everything can tend to self destruct on issues such as these by hurling insults------it gives me better perspective on where the Republicans (and I am one) are headed with this internal devisiveness, and it does not look promising.

We will have nobody but ourselves to blame if we lose the House and/or the Senate next fall, I am afraid.

Barry

What generations do.

Sharksbaja - 5-22-2006 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Somewhere along the Way from the 6o's forward, my Generation failed to instill in our Children, the Morals,Respect for each other that we as Depression Babies had taken for Granted!!
After the "Forgotten War" or "Police Action War" Money and Drugs became the important part of many of our Children"s Life.!
The Mexicanos crossing the Border at that time were looking for a "Better way of Life", The Farmers, Ranchers, Textile Factories were looking to make that money that so many had not Had in the Past!

The Riots in Watts began,Martin Luther King Jr., Chavez, and many others were obtaining Power and Rightfully so!
Parents were spending much of their Time working,not spending time with their Children-The Family unit was breaking down-Drugs and Money replaced Discipline.
I often try to find a Single thing that caused our country to become so Split!

I only come up with our Failures to instill into our children those Values that we had so proudly Held in the Past.
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"

Quote:

Somewhere along the Way from the 6o's forward, my Generation failed to instill in our Children, the Morals,Respect for each other

Boy, you make it sound like the whole of society has gone down the toilet. Do you say these things to the parents Ivy Leaguers too?
You may be exagerrating your frustration at societys' moral downward trend, but I think blaming drugs is a cop out. Isn't alcohol a drug?
My father smoker reefer with Billie Holiday, served in the Navy and was in the theater of war with Japan. He was a brilliant inventor and phyicist among other attributes. Are you blaming him. Or are you blaming me/us?
I have two honest, well mannered young men.. one who is top of the(entire) class.
Where do you get off telling us our generation failed the kids. Our generat9ion thinks YOUR generations govt failed the people.

I can't believe you don't know why the country divided in the 60s and early 70s. Were you not aware that the bloodshed in Vietnam on the tails of the failed North Korean war produced distrust and fear of where we were headed next? The Cold War and threat of nuclear annihilation prompted a grassroots response.
When the govt went liberal the people were placated. That doesn't necessarily equate to a generation of misfits that you seem to highlight.
Can you blame drugs for Japans changing culture, how about Columbia for that matter. Do we really know?
Granted drugs are a scourge of society but the evolution and continuing changes of any culture weighs heavy with time.
You my friend are acting delusional. You are in the wrong place to spew such directed insults. If you must stereotype our generation please do it in the proper forum with the proper people.
----
"It is to attack the problem squarely with the viewpoint that these are CRIMINALS who need to be rounded up and dealt with."

Are you serious? Would you like domestic chaos? This would do it, and maybe some violence TOO! No?

It goes along with the mindset that drug addicts are criminals too. Yes?

for the record:
Barry.... you're not stupid because you have an opinion.

Todays' Keyword: OPINION !

Skeet/Loreto - 5-22-2006 at 08:03 PM

MrBill M ; Go back to the Off-Topic Board where you belong!!

I would also suggest that you Post your Resume!

Let us all see your Experiences?? Are you Afraid?

Skeet/Loreto

Sharksbaja - 5-22-2006 at 08:14 PM

Thanks Skeet

Skeet----Sharks-----

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 08:18 PM

----I hate to be defending Mr. Bill, but I started this "thread", and maybe that was a mistake in this venue, but I thought it would work out----------apparently I was wrong------probably should have been in "off topic", seeing what it has become.

I appreciate your comment, Sharks, reference me.

I also appreciate Skeeter's input as it makes me think and consider another point of view, and I think he posts from his heart.

Isn't that what all this is about???---sharing ideas, and thoughts, and experiences???? if not, then why are we even posting????

Surely it is more than just mental masturbation????

Bruce R Leech - 5-22-2006 at 08:22 PM

Ok I withdraw my withdrawal. probably should have been in "off topic", seeing what it has become. :light:

I Live and learn, Bruce (I hope)

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 08:27 PM

:lol:

Bruce R Leech - 5-22-2006 at 08:30 PM

it just doesn't mater as long as we all can keep our sense of hummer. :lol:

Over The Top, Barry

MrBillM - 5-22-2006 at 08:48 PM

Ok, sometimes (lots of times ?) I get a little wound up when discussing certain subjects and go into Attack Dog mode.

I will acknowledge that most of your comments, Barry, have been thoughtful and, I'm sure, heartfelt. We may agree or disagree on various points of contention regarding the Immigration Resolution. Only time and whatever legislation comes out of Congress will determine the course and who turns out to be correct.

What did get me wound up in this case was the reference to the WWII German "final solution". To inject that horrible evil into this discussion in any way is simply intellectually lazy and dishonest. Good people can disagree, but neither side in this debate should be likened in any fashion to the Nazzis.

Besides, terrible as it was, that "Final Solution" was working out pretty well from Der Fuhrer's point of view. Other events caused them to run out of time. It is, therefore, a defective comparison on its merits.

Skeet-I'm afraid my life experiences would pale in comparison to yours. For that matter, I'm not sure anyone else's experiences could match yours. If True, that is. Given some of your ramblings which indicate obvious age-related dementia, I really don't know what your life has been all about.

"They Don't Make Em Like They Used To, and They Never Did"
Don Meredith.

[Edited on 5-23-2006 by MrBillM]

Sharksbaja - 5-22-2006 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
it just doesn't mater as long as we all can keep our sense of hummer. :lol:

and that's the best piece of advice all day!

Mr Bill-----

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 09:20 PM

-------I truly appreciate your comments and, I believe, understand what you say------------and I really do NOT want to butt heads with you----it simply is not productive.

Now, having said that------- :saint:

But the ref. to WWII, AS I CLEARLY STATED, was in historical context, NOT a personal comparison. The point being, some of us believe that you cannot eliminate any problem involving "millions" of people simply by "arresting" them, and I am a long time Law Enforcement officer with 30+ years experience (my partial resume, ala Skeeter). Even Hitler could not have eliminated the Jews (and the others he was after) no matter how much time he had-------it simply cannot be done, period, when that many people are involved. Even Bolivia, who has killed an est. 8 million (8,000,000) people in their mines over the past 400 years (according to PARADE Magazine), has not eliminated "miners", and the problem continues (not sure how that fact figures into this equation, but I am grasping at straws :lol:

)

Anyway, I appreciate your response to my theories, and, you are right, we will see how the legislature does with this very real problem------and none of us will be totally satisfied, I am sure, least of all the ILLEGALS.

My worst fear is that they will do NOTHING!!!!! and if that happens, include me in your camp TOTALLY!!!

Best, Barry

Sharksbaja - 5-22-2006 at 09:27 PM

"I am a long time Law Enforcement officer with 30+ years"

Of course you are! Everyone knows that the Nomads are either retired cops or old hippies livin'' off mom and dads' real estate fortune! :lol:

I do agree tho....that we all need a fix.

Barry A. - 5-22-2006 at 09:29 PM

:lol:

Bruce R Leech - 5-22-2006 at 10:05 PM