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Barry A.
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Amnesty
Amnesty defined: "A general pardon for political offenses against a government"
To me, this means that all is forgiven----the slate is clean.
What the President (and others) are preposing is NOT a "general pardon"---it is a process by which illegals can obtain legality through deffinite
accomplishments which take considerable effort, time, and money by them.
So why is the House (and many others) opposed to this plan, and say that the Pres. is granting "Amnesty". I don't understand-----it does not fit the
deffinition.
Our legal system constantly depends on things like "Judicial guidelines", and "plea bargains" in deciding how CONVICTED criminals should be punished.
Is not what the Pres. is proposing just like a Plea bargain-----i.e. the illegals jump thru a prescribed set of hurtles as punishment, and then they
can join the ranks of "legals", just like is laid out in a "plea bargain"?
When a Judge consults his "Judicial guidelines" to see what his options are in sentencing a convicted criminal, he sees what he can minimally do, or
what is the max. he can do, to punish this individual. Isn't this very similar to what the Pres. is proposing-----i.e. you broke the law and now this
is what the Judge/law says you have to do to correct the situation?
We as citizens except this all the time---------why do we now have a problem with the illegal aliens being treated the same way as other law
breakers?? Why, in this particular case, do some of us insist that ONLY the most punitive of punishments be imposed without any mitigating factors
taken into consideration?
Am I missing something here?
Of course it is not fair to the folks that have done things according to the law---------life is often not fair. Is it fair that many criminals are
not punished as some think they deserve?? Probably not, but life is not fair----this stuff happens all the time in our legal system because of
mitigating factors, and personal decisions by Judges.
I fail to see how this situation is any different----------lets get on with the Presidents plan for comprehensive reform of the Border situation,
INCLUDING GAINING CONTROL OF THE BORDER WITH POSITIVE ACTION.
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Bruce R Leech
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off topic this is U.S. politics not Baja Politics.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Barry A.
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Bruce-----
------you know, I considered that, but it seemed to me to meet the criteria of "Mexico related" so I put it in the Baja Forum-----------if this is not
correct, I have no objection to Doug moving it--------I do not know how to do that, or even if I can.
Thanks for the heads-up, Bruce. I was kinda avoiding the crazy "Off Topic" forum, if you know what I mean. 
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TMW
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Barry I think it's taking a very complicated and somewhat explosive issue and using it for one's political gain on both sides. And that goes for both
sides of the border.
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Bruce R Leech
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Ok I withdraw
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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woody with a view
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the thing is.....
if there is a method to gain acceptance (citizenship) why is there a different set of rules to attain it? whether a judge uses mandatory minimums or
not is not a factor in "MY" side of this debate. if there is such a desire by the WORLD to come to this country, why do we give preference to our
"border brothers?" what about all of the wannabe americans from overseas? why do they have to take a number at the back of the line?
is it just because they weren't born with the gift of picking vegetables? it makes me so mad to hear how "they" (whoever "they" are) only come to this
country to work. that may be the case, but who runs the prisons in cali? the mexican mafia-that's who.
i heard that minnesota spends $189million/year on services for illegal aliens....nuff said!!!!!!!!!!
[Edited on 5-21-2006 by woody in ob]
[Edited on 5-21-2006 by woody in ob]
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Bruce R Leech
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I don't care what anyone dose as long as it is legal. if they cant do it legal then they should just not do it ...
My wife would sure like to go to the U.S. to visit family but they wont give here a visa. you wont see us blowing up inter tubs and heading for the
river.
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Skeet/Loreto
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Woody;
I must take exception with your use of "Picking Vegtables"
Have you ever Heard of Phillip Sanchez?
I was in the Central Valley of Califrnia during the time of Chavez and the Brown Berets.
Many of the people who had come over in the years past had sent their children to School and college while working in the fields; These same Children
had obtained jobs in the Dept. Of Employment. It was known as the Labor Mafia-They would interview Mexicanos for Job Positions all over the Valley-
they informed each Job applicant they sent to work that if they did not perform , go to School and take care of their families, they would be "Black
Balled the next time they came in for another Job!
It worked very well as you know in the Mexican Culture-One who Speaks for another, takes that person Place and is held responsible by the Families.
I beleive that if an Accruate Survey were taken by "No Spin" people you would find a Large number of Mexicanos have done very well!!
It all walks of Life-Not just in the fields!!
Skeet/Loreto
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Skeet/Loreto
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Another Point with Doug's Permission:
I just came from the Armed Forces Day Program at the heritage Room in Amarillo, Texas.
As I looked at all the Services - There were many Veterans of all Colors, As well as many Active Duty People-Mexicano, Black Women serving their
county. Did you know that the State of Texas produces 1 of every 10 Serving in the in the Armed forces??
The Point is that "there are some Brave Men and Women who are fighting next to each other to Protect this Gread county and they are not-Field Hands!!
Skeet/Loreto
Anon The Preacher
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Dave
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Guilt, maybe?
| Quote: | Originally posted by woody in ob
if there is such a desire by the WORLD to come to this country, why do we give preference to our "border brothers?" |
It's because we're complicit in the fact that they are here. If there weren't any "illegal" jobs offered there wouldn't be any "illegal" aliens.
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woody with a view
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skeet, ya gotta point...
seems like everybody gotta point nowadays. sometimes i wear mine on the top of my head.
but i think that our citizenship outta be for the "BEST" qualified folks, and their generations to come....lo siento.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Woody:
Somewhere along the Way from the 6o's forward, my Generation failed to instill in our Children, the Morals,Respect for each other that we as
Depression Babies had taken for Granted!!
After the "Forgotten War" or "Police Action War" Money and Drugs became the important part of many of our Children"s Life.!
The Mexicanos crossing the Border at that time were looking for a "Better way of Life", The Farmers, Ranchers, Textile Factories were looking to make
that money that so many had not Had in the Past!
The Riots in Watts began,Martin Luther King Jr., Chavez, and many others were obtaining Power and Rightfully so!
Parents were spending much of their Time working,not spending time with their Children-The Family unit was breaking down-Drugs and Money replaced
Discipline.
I often try to find a Single thing that caused our country to become so Split!
I only come up with our Failures to instill into our children those Values that we had so proudly Held in the Past.
Skeet/Loreto
"In God I Trust"
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jerry
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yup skeet im with you there and its a long way back with second and third generation instilling these false intidlments
wrong is right if you got the bucks
dont die wondering jerry
jerry and judi
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MrBillM
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Meaningless Success Stories
Back in 1995, I attended a symposium on illegal immigration at the Claremont Colleges. The advocate of relaxed immigration had just published a book
advocating his position that was a collection of illegal immigrant success stories. When I had an opportunity to address a question/comment, I told
him and the audience that his book was a meaningless collection of anecdotal tales that contained NO statistical breakdown of the "Immigration"
effect. For every success story he recorded, I could point to an illegal immigrant in prison for heinous crimes. The ONLY thing that matters in this
discussion are the STATS. Since then, these anecdotal examples have become "de rigueur" for politicos on both sides. Whenever we get into one of
these discussions, each side trots out some family or families to make their point. What a Crock !
I'll repeat what I (and others) have said. There is NO need at this time for COMPREHENSIVE Immigration legislation. Both sides agree that the 11-12
million are here for awhile, at least. The important thing is to STOP the bleeding. Secure the border. Once Homeland Security certifies that the
Border is secure, then we can begin to sort out the problem affecting the illegals already here. While we can construct some sort of Guest Worker
program if we should find it in our best interests, there should be NO path to citizenship for any of the malefactors. To say that they will go to
the back of the line is absurd since they would be allowed to stay, putting them AHEAD of every single person complying with the laws and waiting
their turn.
Libs keep repeating the Canard that the illegals are ONLY doing work that Americans won't do. Last week, ICE arrested eight Los Angeles DWP employees
from maintenance worker to Supervisors, the upper ones earning over $100K per year. I think that there are plenty of Americans who would take those
jobs.
"Amnesty by any other Name, Stinks all the same"
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Barry A.
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Mr Bill----------
---------I TOTALLY agree with everything you say here EXCEPT the part about "no path to citizenship by illegals"------when WE (the Govt.) are largely
to blame for allowing them to come here, work, and set up their lives without enforcing our laws already on the books. I certainly see where you are
coming from, but what in the world (realistically) are we going to do with the 10 to 12 million??? and their offspring???? I don't believe we can
assume that they will just fade away------they won't. No matter how you slice it, that is a huge chunk of humanity!!!! And we just cannot leave them
in limbo-----there has GOT to be some light at the end of their tunnel, IMHO.
We can draw the line in the sand NOW, and then go on from here (which is what I hear you saying) and enforce our laws strickly, but that still leaves
the 10 to 12 million-----the 800 lb gorrilla sitting at the foot of your/our bed.
And, I still say, that by deffinition the President is NOT granting Amnesty------lets use some other word, but not "Amnesty", as that word just
confuses the issue.
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MrBillM
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Definitions
I note that the current line of advocacy now revolves around the Dictionary Definition. In addition to your thread, at least three advocates on
today's news talk shows have been using that line. Apparently, some polling has gone on and made that the new catch phrase. It still looks like an
Amnesty program to us. As far as what to do with the 11-12 million, its like the AAs say "one day at a time". The first thing we could do is write a
software program for Social Security that would flag SS accounts that appear to be a result of a specific number being used by multiple users. That
would net enough hits that ICE would be kept busy for quite awhile. Another immediate fix would be sweeps on the Day laborers hanging out on the
streets soliciting construction work. We could solve a couple of problems there. Most of those are working for cash which means that the contractor
is using unreported cash to pay them. Turn him over to the IRS so they can find out where his unreported cash is coming from. There are a host of
enforcement actions we can perform which would chip away at the ones already here. It's not going to happen overnight, but at least we could move in
the right direction.
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Barry A.
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Mr Bill------
-------I can honestly say that I was not aware that others were saying the same thing that I am saying about the dictionary deffinition of
"Amnesty"----------that is funny, to me. I hope that these "others" are
credible
The rest of what you say is "ENFORCEMENT" of existing laws, isn't it, which I TOTALLY agree with. That is where we should go from here (line in the
sand concept).
So you DO believe that these actions you propose will just make the 12 million fade away???? Interesting. You may be right but I am VERY skeptical,
and have serious doubts, but I am certainly no expert.
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Skeet/Loreto
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Mr. Bill
I would like to see some of the Americans being out out of a Job!!
Most of the unemployed i have seen at the Malls cannot pass a Drug test to maintain a Job.
Here in The Panhandle of Texas there are Hundreds of Jobs not filled.
Tell me where are the Employers going to find someone to fill the Jobs!!
The Unions?
There are no americans with out Jobs-Just the Loafers, Drug Addicts, and Mall Hounds who do not want to work!!
Skeet/Loreto
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Dave
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Thinking it through
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
There are a host of enforcement actions we can perform which would chip away at the ones already here. It's not going to happen overnight, but at
least we could move in the right direction. |
Which is?
What do we then do with all the millions of out of work illegals? They ain't gonna go home willingly. Being without a job in the U.S. is a picnic
compared to the same in Mexico.
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MrBillM
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The Longest Journey............
Begins with a single step.
The attitude that bothers me most in the current debate is that which says the problem is simply too big to solve. We have to give in and accept the
current situation and deal with it. Bull !
As I said, once the borders are secure, we begin enforcement activity under CURRENT law. It can be done and those we arrest WILL leave the country
courtesy of La Migra. Once we jail a few Contractors and the IRS seizes their assets, the message will be heard. As far as the illegals who become
unemployed as a result, they have the choice of leaving or becoming a law enforcement problem. Arrest, jail and deport them. It's a sad fact that a
lot of good people are going to be eaten up by the system, but sometimes little people have to lose to make the big picture work.
Poco a Poco.
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