BajaNomad - Dear Doug & Fellow Amigos/Amigas

Dear Doug & Fellow Amigos/Amigas

CaboMagic - 7-24-2006 at 09:57 AM

I respectfully request that you PLEASE remove BillM 's posts that are completely disrespectful and outrageously offensive.

I dont care if he starts his own threads and plays with himself all day long, but he has no respect for the living or the departed.

Thank you, Lori

CaboMagic - 7-24-2006 at 11:30 AM

The ones on the BajaNews thread where BillM showed utter disrespect for Elizabeth whose husband Roger passed away.

I can choose to open or not open any thread started by anyone - in this case BillM ..

I can choose to read or not read any posts written by anyone on these public forums.

In my opinion, the poor taste of posting on the condolence thread is one that I would hack if given the ability too - out of respect for the living and the departed.

[Edited on 7-24-2006 by CaboMagic]

YES!

djh - 7-24-2006 at 11:47 AM

Yes, delete those disrespectful, judgemental, and totally inappropriate comments.

I kindly asked the individual poster to consider deleting his inappropriate comment - a simple, sincere, and fair request, and he not only didn't delete his comment, he added two additional judgemental, accusatory, insensitive, and disrespectful posts.

Freedoms necessarily require responsibilities. MOST true conservatives - as the poster claims to be, believe that, and behave accordingly. When the "freedom" is not accompanied by responsibility, and it turns into harm to others, then it is time for the community to respond.

I agree that deleting those intentionally judgemental, disrespectful, and hurtful comments is the "RIGHT" thing to do.

Thank you CaboMagic for raising the question. I know you are very selective about which matters you choose to engage in here - you and I discussed that recently - and your concern and request is respectful, appropriate, and compassionate to a fellow Nomad who was deliberately kicked while down, and suffering from life's greatest loss.

Your thought, Doug?
djh.

Very briefly...

vgabndo - 7-24-2006 at 12:18 PM

The Off Topic forum is the place for MrBill. It has become a cesspool over there. His disprespect for Elizabeth was fairly mild when compared with a lot of his stuff Off Topic.

I've sworn off.

I've signed up with OTA (Off Topic Anonimous) I think I have three days on the wagon. I hope I can get by without detox.

I think the comments in this thread indicate that there must be rules of behavior on the main Baja forum. I believed there already were. I was BLASTED by Bill and his pals when I suggested that on the Off Topic Forum.

Sharksbaja - 7-24-2006 at 12:23 PM

SHOCKING! :lol:

NOT!

Many of us have experienced the same thrill-ride and arrived at the same place.....aqui! :lol:

bajamigo - 7-24-2006 at 12:59 PM

When I requested that the offending thread be removed, I was not suggesting any form of censorship. If someone who lacks basic intelligence and sensitivity wants to air his thoughts, fine, that's why I served in the Air Force. But the thread under discussion has taken on the characteristics of fish that's been left in the fridge too long. Somebody put it there, we all saw it, we all had a chance to react to it. Now let's toss it out.

As far as censorship is concerned, I only wish that the offensive poster had exercised a polite degree of self-censorship.

CaboMagic - 7-24-2006 at 01:04 PM

Perhaps like spraying retardant to stop a fire or putting ointment on a rash?

Out of respect to Elizabeth and her family and to Roger I say remove the posts so that others who have not yet seen it dont have to endure that manure.

I dont know Elizabeth or her family - We all know the pain of losing a loved one.

We all have, and are freely entitiled to have, different definitions for that which brings us happiness and fullfillment of our own lives and are free to express ourselves thus. This is one I choose to take a stand on.

Amigo de Baja

Sharksbaja - 7-24-2006 at 01:06 PM

Larry is right. We've seen threads get all torn up and ruined through selective censorship. While the thread is an abomination, at this point it would be unwise to do anything with it. I just hope that all the Nomads read this one and learn something important from it. Comprende?

elizabeth - 7-24-2006 at 01:12 PM

I am in no way suggesting that it should be my decision to delete or not delete messages, but I thought I'd like to comment even though I do not have an answer.

The damage has already been done. To remove the offensive posts renders the responses to them meaningless. The only solution would be to remove the entire thread, but then the posts that were positive and meaningful to me would be removed as well. Some posts contained both outrage and sympathy, and cannot easily be edited. I don't think there is an easy or a good solution.

Ideally, I would have liked to be able to print out the entire thread to place in the book I'm creating for our young grandson, who has been visiting Loreto with us since he was 4 1/2 months old, and who is only 26 months old now, and too young to remember how special his relationship was with his Tata. Instead I have selectively saved...

The larger issue of how to deal with toxic individuals is, as some have suggested, answered by simply ignoring them. Those few people can endlessly respond to each other without the rest of us feeding them.

What I have learned from this Nomad experience is that the vast majority of you are kind, thoughtful and caring individuals. I treasure your expressions of concern.

Sharksbaja - 7-24-2006 at 01:18 PM

You, my dear lady friend are brave and strong. Thanks for the important feedback. Cork

djh - 7-24-2006 at 01:23 PM

Bless you Elizabeth, and your grace and dignity. And your ability to navigate your way through such a difficult time.

I hope Shing and I meet you in person one day in Loreto. You know our place !

djh

DanO - 7-24-2006 at 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
I don't think there is an easy or a good solution.

I agree with Elizabeth's assessment. As the saying goes, perfection is the enemy of the good. And good on you, Elizabeth, for the character and resolve you've shown this community. It's a lesson each of us should take to heart (those of us that have one, anyway

Stickers - 7-24-2006 at 01:34 PM

I am new to this wonderful Baja forum and must admit that I have misinterpreted posts from some of its members. I have mistakenly thought that certain posters were tongue-in-check and just goofing with off color humor and fell into their rut. I now see that these posts are in fact intended to spew nonsense and hate. It is also clear that this venom can destroy the wonderful mood that has developed among the folks who live and play in Baja. I feel that for Doug to "host" this type diatribe is ridiculous.
Innocent teenagers like Serena (Serinita) reads every post on this board while someone is advocating killing half of all Americans because he disagrees with them.
Loosing members like Shari and her daughter form this forum would be a great loss to the Nomads. They represent a kinda new-age Baja family and that is truly exciting.

I am also conservative, but waving flags and screaming free speech is for cowards and clan members.

CaboMagic - 7-24-2006 at 01:43 PM

Elizabeth I admire your strength and learn from your dignity ..

Larry I now do see your point and respectfully thank you for providing me the opportunity to see in a much grander picture .. I dont ever want to wish I did not say these words.

Sending kind regards and best wishes to all who welcome them ... Lori

bajamigo - 7-24-2006 at 02:03 PM

Elizabeth, you are the quintessential class act. I hope my wife and I have the great good fortune to meet you some day.

JESSE - 7-24-2006 at 03:59 PM

Lets see, Mrbill spends his time insulting everybody around, and i post one single response hinting he should be sacked, and my response gets deleted???

Whats going on??

DanO - 7-24-2006 at 04:08 PM

I had a post deleted on that thread too, which was also somewhat critical (and used some asterisked profanity

), but also noted my condolences for Elizabeth's loss. She has directly expressed her gratitude for all of our positive thoughts, and that's enough for me. I don't need to see my message up there again to know that it got across.

Well, I can see the Holier than thou crowd is

beercan - 7-24-2006 at 04:53 PM

alive and kicking .

I was taught by my Dad to respect the living when they deserved it !!It was too late to go to the funeral and say "nice "about them. They couldn't hear you then.

Larry is the only one who "gets it ' !!!!!!!Mr Bill said what he believe and feels. If you can't take it or don't like it ---remember that the next time you open you mouth to speak.
Someone is gonna be in your face to censure you !! No matter what you say, someone is going to disagree and ask that you be shut up
REMEMBER THAT-----How nice the feeling !!

Stinson Beach, yea I remember it -I know the family that owned the original old hotel there . Doesn't make me an expert to tell Bill to shut up.

Finally, any death usually touches many and causes grief--I know, I've lost many of my family , but words from people don't really help me !!!

Mike Humfreville - 7-24-2006 at 05:00 PM

Deleting a posters comments is always a tough call I would guess. mrBillM fatmouthed to me on Fred?s board for a short story I?d posted. I chose to ignore him. And I quit ever opening any pots of his. I made the gross assumption he was simply a sick puppy.

My personal belief, while I quite often don?t succeed at it, is to merge with others I respect and find ways to fit and be helpful and productive. We are all here to get along and so many of us aim for this objective. But there will always be people out there who derive their self worth from putting others down. You just have to feel sorry for and ignore them.

I have read many posts made by Lori and respect her as a supporter in general rather than a taker. Regardless of whatever consensus we may form and of Doug?s decision I just wish all of our membership would learn that criticism is only necessary occasionally.

DanO - 7-24-2006 at 05:27 PM

The issue of post removal/modification is such a recurring theme here that I thought I'd locate one of my more recent posts on the subject, this one from a thread relating to a dustup involving (who else?) JR:

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
Sigh.

I've addressed this sort of request several times in the past. Maybe what we have here, as the warden in Cool Hand Luke would say, is a failure to communicate.

Let me try it another way. The discourse on this board doesn't need a rule that permits only "nice" posts. Such imposed restraints will not be heeded by posters, because it is a fundamental aspect of human nature that we do NOT follow rules. Jesus, if we all followed what most people view as the commonly accepted parameters for appropriate behavior, we and this board probably wouldn't exist! These people think you're certifiably insane when they learn that you love spending time in (or, worse yet, are moving to or already living in) a country that in their view is lawless and corrupt, unsanitary and uncivilized, and just generally dangerous.

You start imposing rules like theirs, you get on the slippery slope and it's just a matter of time before you start thinking like them and saying crap like "How can you eat the street food down there? Don't they all cook everything in trash cans?" (My response is: "That's why I always demand to see what they're cooking in. If they don't use a trash can, I'll go somewhere that does.")

Or how about this one: "What if you get sick or injured, aren't the medical facilities down there just totally primitive? (Response: "Absolutely, but I've got a contingency plan. Since I can't afford to call a stateside jet copter to come and get me if I have a heart attack, I'll drive for hours to get to San Diego, if I live that long. Or hey, I could avoid the drive altogether and just kill myself on the spot by swallowing my tongue!")

Simply put, a rule requiring us all to be nice would be unenforceable and would encourage precisely the sort of narrow-minded and cloistered thinking that I, for one, find totally unacceptable. I'm betting I'm not alone.

Hose A assured me I was not alone, so there are at least two of us that think this is the right approach.

Disregard, Ignore and Goodbye

losfrailes - 7-24-2006 at 05:39 PM

What seems to be the major problem here?

Mr Bull has managed to show exactly where his inner self is located.

We, who respond to his comments, good or bad, provide the impetus for him to continue.

Ostracize the sucka! If he posts, don't open and read. You just add to his credibility by doing so.

His commentary when being negative cannot be excused but if he gets responses he wins. Shut him down by not responding to anything he says or does.

Perhaps his vitriol will go away.

vjfamily - 7-24-2006 at 06:31 PM

My respect for this Board, for Baja and for the men and women who love Baja is strengthened by this series of posts.

I too, find Mr. Bill's comments to be completely off the wall and now I know not to bother opening his posts. Los Frailes hits the nail right on the head "Ostracize the sucka! If he posts, don't open and read. You just add to his credibility by doing so."

One of the lessons you learn on this Board is whose posts are interesting and valuable to YOU as well as worth your time to read, you also get a an opportunity to witness many people behave in a very classy fashion. Good luck on your future adventures, Elizabeth. If I can help you in any way send me an email, Joanna.

Bruce R Leech - 7-24-2006 at 06:39 PM

I'm kind of disappointed that Doug has not at least commented on this yet. maybe he isn't back yet or something like that .

thebajarunner - 7-24-2006 at 07:03 PM

Nicely done Doug!
You did the right thing....
thanks,
dh

comitan - 7-24-2006 at 07:04 PM

Bruce

He is back and has cleaned up that thread.

Hallelujuh !!!!!

beercan - 7-24-2006 at 07:39 PM

Break the other arm patting yourselves on the back. All you perfect people . Almost all of you have called Bill names and his acts are bad !! Who is perfect, let him cast the first stone !!

you are doing exactly what you have accused Bill of doing !!!

You hyprocrites !!!

JZ - 7-24-2006 at 08:22 PM

If you can't tell the difference you got a big iq problem.

JG - 7-24-2006 at 08:27 PM

btw ...Bills posts seem to have been deleted from Freds board as well...minimum standards of decency seem necessary to teach to some.

The world is full of surprises

Dave - 7-24-2006 at 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beercan
Who is perfect, let him cast the first stone !!

Interesting that you should quote the Gospel of John. Is this a maxim you uphold? That only those who are sinless should punish those who sin?

longlegsinlapaz - 7-25-2006 at 08:32 AM

Elizabeth, you certainly handled this situation with much more grace & dignity that I would/could have! My sincere condolences on your loss & the additional abuse you were exposed to here!

Beercan, you totally overlooked the point that it wasn't Roger, the deceased, that the words were meant to hurt, but rather Elizabeth who is alive & should never have been exposed to intentional additional pain & anguish. Common sense & common human decency should prevail.

Could all of you guys who posted in favor of leaving the desecrated thread intact look at this from a different point of view? WOULD YOUR PRESPECTIVE CHANGE AT ALL IF IT WERE YOUR WIFE, MOTHER, DAUGHTER, FRIEND IN ELIZABETH'S POSITION??? I'm not a promoter of censorship in general, but in this instance, I feel that Doug took the right actions; IMHO, more damage would have been done if the original thread were to have been left intact in the name of Freedom of Speech, than was done by removing the tasteless, offensive posts. In a nutshell; screw bill's rights, IMHO, Elizabeth's rights & the rights of the family take precedent in the name of common human decency!!

It's easy to say "Ostracize the sucka! If he posts, don't open and read. You just add to his credibility by doing so." when someone begins their own thread. It's impossible to ignore when an existing thread is desecrated. To my way of thinking, ignoring in this kind of situation condones by way of silence. It takes more courage to speak up when you're offended than it does to stick your head in the sand without speaking your convictions.

I agree that we are each responsible for the words we utter & that no bell can be unrung, but in this case the utter of the profane wasn't who I see as being hurt & having to live with his decision to utter them in the first place!

Again Larry is about the only person to get it !!!

beercan - 7-25-2006 at 09:44 AM

Longlegs , don't tell me whats in my mind or what you think I missed ---cause as you reject Bill's words , likewise I reject yours !!!!!!!

I have been in this world for 63 years and as a Firefighter/EMT, I have seen enough Blood, Death, and destruction to last me forever !!

My views and words have been shaped by truth and reality!!
If Bill is censured /removed , then I hope everyone on this board as self-righteous and narrowminded persons that most have demostrated that they are, suffer the the same fate !

JESSE - 7-25-2006 at 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by beercan
Longlegs , don't tell me whats in my mind or what you think I missed ---cause as you reject Bill's words , likewise I reject yours !!!!!!!

I have been in this world for 63 years and as a Firefighter/EMT, I have seen enough Blood, Death, and destruction to last me forever !!

My views and words have been shaped by truth and reality!!
If Bill is censured /removed , then I hope everyone on this board as self-righteous and narrowminded persons that most have demostrated that they are, suffer the the same fate !

Theres a big difference betwen your annoying yet tolerable presence, and the insulting nature of almost everyone of Bill's posts. I get into very tough arguments with BB and others here, i don't always like what they say, but i feel they have something to contribute, Bill on the other hand, is plain loco and amargado and serves no purpose whatsoever.

If you like reading bills bitter and poisonous posts, why don't you give him your personal email so he can email you a daily dose of venom.

Bruce R Leech - 7-25-2006 at 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Jesse you are right on the mark

longlegsinlapaz - 7-25-2006 at 10:50 AM

Larry, I DO understand your position & agree with it for the most part, I don't agree with it in this particular circumstance, for the reasons stated originally. Nonetheless, I respect your right to your opinion, as I feel you respect my right to mine. Peace!

Beercan, DITTO on my comments to Larry. I also believe that my views & words have been shaped by my life's truths & reality. We each got here via our own individual personal paths...the world would be a mighty dull place if we all thought alike!

Cypress - 7-25-2006 at 10:51 AM

Respect, Disrespect for the death of someones relative serves no purpose. Why add to the pain of the loss of a loved one? It's a time to bury the past and move into the future.

DanO - 7-25-2006 at 06:18 PM

If those are my only choices, I'd say delete the whole thread, largely for the reasons Larry cited above. However, I don't like the choices. I'm opposed to any system that proscribes certain content in advance, or one that imposes those limits ex post facto via the removal of certain posts from threads to "sanitize" them. I'm also opposed to the deletion of entire threads to eliminate what people -- even myself -- consider unacceptable discourse. And if you get a post like the one that ignited this whole debate (this time) -- one that offends the most fundamental notion of human decency -- the answer isn't to have it expunged, or even to ignore it. The answer, IMHO, is for people who feel strongly about it to express their view, as I did, that the poster should STFU and move on to another topic. Otherwise, the place will be like an Etch-A-Sketch, and we'll have no real record of our community and discussions here (like it or not, every community has some folks you do not and will probably never agree with).

longlegsinlapaz - 7-25-2006 at 08:14 PM

Larry, yeah, what DanO said! He just got his posted first! I don't like the options, but if those are the only two doors I get to pick from, then in this particular instance, because of the nature & intent of the original post, I'd have to opt for door #1...remove the truly offensive posts...I KNOW that's subjective to different people, but I feel Doug did the right thing in this particular case; eliminating the entire post would have cheapened the original poster's intent to honor someone...in a different way that bill did. I know you're looking at a much bigger picture than I am, but I was so offended by his intentions, that my concerns were totally on behalf of the family, and by extension, the moral need of this board (members, not just Doug) to take a stand against that kind of posts, much more so than a historically correct audit trail. On a different thread, my feelings might be different.

longlegsinlapaz

Baja Bernie - 7-25-2006 at 08:40 PM

"On a different thread, my feelings might be different. " And there in lies the problem

What you all are talking about is an event past--sadly with less than happy results, but finished none the less.
I believe that this thread has been talked senseless.

All anyone has to do to stop this type behavior is not to respond to the offender---should they not get the attention they crave they will find gratification elsewhere. AS long at a single idiot feed their needs by replying then the board loses.

To ask Doug to solve the problem is like giving a young man a dull sword and asking him to solve the .......knot! He might try but with only a dull blade he will never succeed.

We should have handled 'ou'r problem.

All we have to do is turn our back upon the offender! Surprisingly that takes a degree of self control.