BajaNomad - Violence against tourists ---

Violence against tourists ---

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 02:19 PM

Having read in detail all posts in this thread and those in General Discussion regarding recent very unfortunate, VERY sad events in Baja I find myself, out of respect and dignity for Raquel [her likely being identity mistaken or victim in another way of a very disturbed individual(s) whom I would take out without giving a second thought], and to Larry and the family, I've begun this new thread.

I've only been traveling in Third World countries, mostly Mexico since 1969 so may not have all the answers but - I'm just wondering?

Why is it?? That a few of you who have posted responses to the tragedy, seem to have most of the problems and most of the rest of us have few or no problems?

Ah!

Baja Bernie - 9-4-2006 at 02:35 PM

A most interesting and perceptive question.

fishbuck - 9-4-2006 at 03:16 PM

My guess is that silence on the subject does not indicate a lack of caring. Plus, the latest natural disaster is a distraction from the recent tragedy.
It would be difficult to not be somewhat heartbroken and troubled by the murder of a friendly grandmother.
The reality is that death in Baja by accident or violence is nothing new. I know of one other unsolved murder in the San Quintin area of some beach campers from about 5 years ago. Also a questionable "accident" killed WaycoolMike last year at the TJ airport.
We might never know what happened to that poor lady.

Don Alley - 9-4-2006 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drwnorth
Why is it?? That a few of you who have posted responses to the tragedy, seem to have most of the problems and most of the rest of us have few or no problems?

It may be partly a question of perspective, or attitude.

For example, in the context of the recent reports, I might say "Gee...I haven't had any problems."

Then again, our car got broken into, and stuff stolen out of it twice, and three neighbors on our block have been burglarized. In the last year or so. That surpasses 30 years of crime we have exprienced in Montana in a larger town.

Also, I still am not sure if there has been a surge in crime, or just a coindidental convergence of crime with internet message board connected people.

Stll, as we travel south from Montana into the large US metropolitan areas, we realize there is more crime, and criminal justice systems that routinely release people convicted of crimes that would keep them locked up in Montana. We are also aware, as we cross into Mexico, that there are larger gaps in wealth.And whether or not law enforcement in Mexico is sufficiently motivated, there are less resources available to them.

So, you have to find a perhaps narrow line between justifiable vigilance and unnecessary paranoia.

bajacagirl - 9-4-2006 at 07:36 PM

I live in Baja and all i can say is i have Dogs and a big wall, but before I had these things they broke into my husbands car and took all his tools (carpenter). The min. wage is $5 and something a day. I know I couldn't live on that not even here in Mexico. I wonder how people make it with the cost of things. Thank God for the Sentri pass and the U.S.A is only 20-30 miles from here.

DENNIS - 9-4-2006 at 08:52 PM

I dont think that your / our area is representative of the entire Mexican economy. Everything is higher here. A person earning no more than 5 bucks a day here couldn't afford to eat anything other than rocks and twigs.

Later .... Dennis

AmoPescar - 9-4-2006 at 08:54 PM

drwnorth...

Am I detecting some arrogance here...or am I just reading more(or less?) into your posting?? Am I missing something in your post?

I'm one of the posters who started a thread about the violence.

Should they/we not feel outraged and angry about the violence?

So what if they've had acts of crime or violence commited against them and they've shared that fact while expressing themselves. Does that somehow make them a lesser person? I get the feeling that you think they brought it on themselves in some way.

Please explain your posting to me.

Amo

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 09:15 PM

Amo,

Thank you for bringing the topic back on track.

I think I made my point about how I feel about the violence and what I'd do about it if given the chance....

Clearly this is not about arrogance or "better than you".

It's about understanding travel, living outside the States, and making this and the ex-pat concept better.

--------------------

........traveling at 3 AM on one of the most notoriously known dangerous routes in all of Mexico ???

--------------------

But what do I know? Being a gringo born and raised in soCal in a Latino neighborhood....

drwnorth

fishbuck - 9-4-2006 at 09:18 PM

After rereading the original posters question I too detect some smugness.
I've been very fortunate in my travels to baja. I lost a pair of fins in Mag Bay but it may have just been carelessness on my part. That's all.
I've traveled alone a lot and at night(very early morning). I've interacted(gotten drunk with) with the locals even some I wasn't sure about and never had a problem.
Maybe I've just been lucky. Even still I think I'll be a little more careful in the future.
I have noticed that some of the people who run into problems in MX are the same ones who run into problems in the states.

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 09:24 PM

fishbuck,

It's not about smugness nor was it intended.

It's about your last sentence.

Bajalero - 9-4-2006 at 09:27 PM

"doc"

Your perspective or anyone elses doesn't amount to a hill of beans when your numbers up .

If you spend enough time in Baja ,yours will come around

Your question, why is it , is absurd . Don't you think the most likely to respond actually have had a bad experience?

Do you by chance know Germanicus ?

Frank - 9-4-2006 at 09:47 PM

Quote:

........traveling at 3 AM on one of the most notoriously known dangerous routes in all of Mexico ???

How would you know it was a dangerous road at that time of morning without someone telling you? I use to travel that stretch of road on my way south @ that time of morning. Now that there were several problems and I know about it, I can be better prepared.

Its only a matter of time before a incident happens to all of us. We just try to minimize them. Im sure your name will come up on the big wheel, when it does, you will draw on your knowledge and handle it. If you didnt have the knowledge then, it could be considered a "problem" instead of a small tope.

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 09:53 PM

Bajalero,

Absurd?

I think not.

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 10:03 PM

Frank,

That's the beauty of a website like this - current info.

Baja is unique and we're lucky to have one of the more comprehensive boards anywhere outside the US with current accurate updated info.

How would you know?

I've known about the toll road between TJ and Ensenada for about thirty years so my question now is - why wouldn't you know?

Frank - 9-4-2006 at 10:18 PM

You wouldnt know if you were a new Baja traveler. The road looks just like a regular US road. The little reciept says the toll you just paid helps to pay for the green angels that will come to your assistance. You feel safe.

I have to admit, I drove that road so many times, Id let my guard down when I got on it. It was like a old friend, never changing. To read about problems on it really shocked me, so now Ill be more aware, and alert.

drwnorth - 9-4-2006 at 10:30 PM

That stretch has always had it's problems.

First time in MX, back in '69 returning to the States at night we were pulled over by police.

We bought our way out of it no problem.

I think the key is to advance your trip using forums like this.

A wealth of info....

Many of us...

Mike Humfreville - 9-4-2006 at 11:02 PM

have had lives filled with the wonderful and sometimes fearful things that can happen in any society or foreign place, in this case Mexico. While many of us knew Raquel for many, many years there are many that were closer to her and Larry and their family than others of us. It has nothing to do with problems we've experiemced or a lack of support for that family. It has to do with respect for the fact that the family is filled with people with closer values and history than, in this case, me.

I agree with Amo that your post sounds condescending and perhaps like you are really trying, between the lines, to make some other point. This is not a criticism. We all communicate in our own ways. But for you to initiate a thread superficially filled with discrete putdowns as to why we may choose a reason for empathy during a very trying time is, to me at least, inappropriate.

Regardess how many years we've been spending time in Baja, many of us have learned to respect each other across our differences and similarities and to be there for each other when an emergency or tragedy occurs. Some of us do that best by being silent out of respect.

At any rate, Raquel's death will remain an influence in the village for generations. I hope that was the purpose of your post, and, if so, I completely agree.

AmoPescar - 9-5-2006 at 12:01 AM

drwnorth...

Quote:

Why is it?? That a few of you who have posted responses to the tragedy, seem to have most of the problems and most of the rest of us have few or no problems?

But what do I know? Being a gringo born and raised in soCal in a Latino neighborhood....

Bajalero, Absurd? I think not.

How would you NOT know? YOU FORGOT THE "NOT" !!!

I've known about the toll road between TJ and Ensenada for about thirty years so my question now is - why wouldn't you know?

WELL...IF YOU DON'T THINK WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN DOESN'T SOUND ARROGANT, SMUG CONDESCENDING OR SUPERIOR, YOU SURE HAVE A PROBLEM!

Not everyone can be as well informed as you. Some don't have internet access or know who (or where) to ask the questions.

I've been traveling Baja for years, have read many stories and books on Baja, and have been reading this Baja Forum and other Baja Internet Forums for years. But by NO MEANS do I consider myself an expert in any aspect of the Baja experience.

I DO know the dangers of the highways, and I have always tried to be careful driving on them. I have never had a ticket for driving in Baja, nor have I ever been stopped for a vehicle driving infraction...or even a fake one. Nor, have I ever been robbed, or had anything major stolen. This is all because I am extremely cautious and very careful. Yet, despite all my cautions, I know that I won't always be that lucky. SOMETHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO ME SOME TIME!

Yet, despite my feelings for your opinions, I consider you a Nomad and Baja Amigo.

Amo Pescar (aka:Michael)

[Edited on 9-5-2006 by AmoPescar]

fishbuck - 9-5-2006 at 12:24 AM

The toll road is notoriously dangerous? I've never heard that before. I've read of a few incidents here.
The only danger I've ever noticed is people driving to fast. I just try to stay out of their way.
I always stop on the side of the road north of Ensenada. That's the best place to relieve myself before TJ and the border.
What else is dangerous that we should know about?
I guess I really have been lucky and I want to get smarter about being lucky.

Smugness-by many here

Baja Bernie - 9-5-2006 at 06:45 AM

By Don Alley, "So, you have to find a perhaps narrow line between justifiable vigilance and unnecessary paranoia. "

That is where I was hoping this thread was going!

Instead I hear someone screaming here.

Most of us old timers have always known that it attracted those who would prey on those with nicer things and more money. I even knew this before I was allowed to join the Amigo's and then Nomad board. Like sometime 'before' this terrible road was built.

I guess we have been remiss because we assumed that 'everyone' knew of the problems.

Thinking about it-- to us it was really not a problem--just something to be dealt with on a routine basis.

Now, I believe that it is being very much overdone.

There are a bunch of place in San Diego and LA that I have knowledge of and would never think of going there during the day, much less at night.

I started harping on the hazards of driving in Baja (all of it) at night on the two forums I spoke of and all I got was--silence at best.

Baja does have a dark underbelly and those of us who still love it and plan on continuing our visits had better be aware of it!

So, alright, already, let's balance things out and talk about some of the good stuff.

oxxo - 9-5-2006 at 09:47 AM

Check out the "Mexican Police Stories" thread for the other side of the story.

drwnorth - 9-5-2006 at 09:49 AM

When posting this thread I knew it would stir up a hornet's nest and it has. And also has "got people thinking" which it was intended to do as well as stimulate responses with useful information for the sake of everyone's safety and hopefully better Third World experiences.

To those of you who have been able to discern the message and respond positively, I thank.

To those who have had your feelings hurt and responded with innuendo, hence taking the thread away from the point and what that is I say - refer back to 'fishbucks' first post here on the 4th at 8:18 PM- specifically his last sentence.

To those who wish for more information about MX travel or in any foreign country - good or bad, do your homework and ask questions, in advance. It's pretty amazing how many people are out there - been there, done that - and are most helpful in providing needed info - including Mexican nationals once there and traveling about - and don't forget about the international travel forums. Then in particular Baja is truly unique in that due to its high popularity and travel forums like this, an unusually high degree of up to the minute, mostly accurate info is at your fingertips.

---------------------------------------

Bernie,

Your summary of all posts here, and added insights - quite well done!

And agreed, let's move on........

Dangers of the toll road?

DanO - 9-5-2006 at 10:56 AM

Here's a funny story. Coming back north yesterday I pull out onto the highway from La Bocana/Puerto Santo Tomas, and join a long string of cars and trucks crawling up the grade to the top of the hill and the checkpoint. A guy in a new jacked up Ford 150 crew cab with a couple of ATVs, some kids' toys and camping equipment in the back coming from farther south is right in front of me, and apparently in a real big hurry. At the base of the first switchback, he pulls out to pass and takes about three vehicles before downhill traffic around the second switchback forces him back into line. At the top of the hill, the line from the checkpoint is stretched back about a dozen vehicles, and the guy takes a shot at pulling out of line and passing the cars waiting in line. This apparently catches the eye of the checkpoint guys, so the Ford driver wisely hangs back, but with the back end of his truck stuck out into the southbound lane, forcing a few southbound vehicles to negotiate around him. He goes through the inspection about the same time as us, then roars off. We mosey on down the road, stopping at a store for some sodas and snacks. As we pass through Ensenada, we see the Ford guy again. He's been pulled over by a motorcycle cop, who is writing him a ticket. The next time we see him is on the grade down to La Salina, where he blows by me and a semi going at least 100 mph, obviously steamed about the ticket, and now in an even bigger hurry (to do what, wait in line for three hours?). Just after he passes me, I pull out from behind the semi, and as I'm passing it, a big metal collapsing chair flies out of the Ford guy's truck and into my lane (I'm doing about 70), forcing me to jam on the brakes and swerve back in behind the semi to avoid hitting the chair. I assume the half dozen or so cars and trucks behind me had to deal with the same problem.

DENNIS - 9-5-2006 at 01:34 PM

drwnorth ----
Thanks, for inspiring me to"think", as you put it.I've never been able to do that without an insightful guide, such as yourself.
Please, drw, in the future, would you just pose your question in a manner unlike a Buddhist monk? You know, the one hand clapping kind of crap, and see if those of us, less gifted than you can fathom the depths of it?
I usually take offense to anybody who assumes the role of teacher to me without my request but, this time I'll let it go.
Your "thanks" to those whom you assume extrapolated meaning from your meaningless question was a desperate plea for support. I doubt that many, if any here,understood your post. Had they known they were being led to "think", I'm sure most of the confusion would have been avoided.

Please drw, dont take offense to my tirade. This is a place for opinions, yours as well as mine. At least I think it is. [ there I go, thinking on my own ]

You have a really b-tchen day ..... Dennis

Lencho -

Mike Humfreville - 9-5-2006 at 08:39 PM

I enjoyed Dennis's reply and found it fitting. You could reread it with toung in cheek.

rnbrocha - 9-5-2006 at 10:45 PM

:?:

Now common sense is what lacks in driving today. Whether it be US, Mexico, wherever! I have driven all over Mexico (thanks to great traveling parents) and the beauty of this country always takes away the bad stuff. If it is your time to go, so be it.... Be strong in your faith and love your family. As for the Mexican Banditos.... let's not stereo-type here, there are these type of drive by robbery criminals here in the states... Common sense!

drwnorth - 9-6-2006 at 12:18 PM

Wow !!

Some interesting fabricated untruths posted by a few here.

........hmmmm, I suppose this may be a result of not being able to answer the question........????????

DanO - 9-6-2006 at 03:41 PM

Although I smell troll here (see below for a sad one), I don't have anything better to do, so here goes:

I don't understand the question, as it appears to be based on an unproven and likely flawed statistical analysis. Please rephrase. In the interim, here are a few possible interpretations I've been able to come up with:

1. You think bad things are more likely happen to people who do bad things to other people. I'm hardly in a position to argue with this, as it's just a restatement of the principle of karma.

2. You think bad things are more likely to happen to people who act like a**holes in foreign countries, disobey the law, flaunt authority, etc. No argument from me here either -- the best way to get noticed is to draw negative attention to yourself.

3. You think bad things are more likely to happen to people who knowingly put themselves into dangerous situations. I can't argue with this either -- it's the concept that insurance companies operate on.

4. You think that bad things are more likely to happen to people who get into dangerous situations because they haven't taken the time and effort to educate themselves about the potential dangers beforehand. Again, I can't argue with this. I think we all have a responsibility to arm ourselves with as much knowledge as possible and to travel with care for ourselves and with consideration for others.

5. You think that people to whom bad things have happened and who've posted about them on this board must fall into one of the four groups above. See, this is where I, and apparently others, have a little difficulty with your question and its implications. Maybe you'd like to clear this up for us.

DENNIS - 9-6-2006 at 03:52 PM

Hey there dw ----

Did DanO get it right, or what?

You're still doing the ,"sound of one hand clapping chit".

What is the question?

Ask the question.

I honestly dont believe you have one.

Later ..... Dennis

DianaT - 9-6-2006 at 04:14 PM

Quote:

5. You think that people to whom bad things have happened and who've posted about them on this board must fall into one of the four groups above. See, this is where I, and apparently others, have a little difficulty with your question and its implications. Maybe you'd like to clear this up for us.

In my opinion, you nailed it. Thanks DanO

Diane

[Edited on 9-6-2006 by jdtrotter]

oxxo - 9-6-2006 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
A guy in a new jacked up Ford 150 crew cab with a couple of ATVs, some kids' toys and camping equipment in the back coming from farther south is right in front of me, and apparently in a real big hurry. As we pass through Ensenada, we see the Ford guy again. He's been pulled over by a motorcycle cop, who is writing him a ticket. The next time we see him is on the grade down to La Salina, where he blows by me and a semi going at least 100 mph, obviously steamed about the ticket, and now in an even bigger hurry. Just after he passes me, I pull out from behind the semi, and as I'm passing it, a big metal collapsing chair flies out of the Ford guy's truck and into my lane

I wonder if Mr. Jacked Up Ford is a person who would say that something bad happens to him every time he visits Baja. Bad Karma! :lol:

Oso - 9-6-2006 at 04:53 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

DanO - 9-6-2006 at 05:00 PM

Oxxo -- Exactly. That's why I posted the story. If the theory of karma really works, here's what I imagine might have happened after we saw him last: He (1) got in the crossing lane that turned out to be the slowest, (2) tried to change lanes and banged into another car that wouldn't give ground but did call the TJ police, (3) paid mordida to TJPD to get out of it (4) got back into line and waited some more, (5) got sent to secondary, and (6) got nailed with some contraband in the back of his truck that he claimed was planted by the Mexican cops.

Mind you, it's just a theory. :lol:

[Edited on 9-7-2006 by DanO]

drwnorth - 9-8-2006 at 03:38 PM

.... DanO knows it all, how lucky can we be?

Hmmmm? Question this in the big time........

Gosh! If I didn't have all these KIA's in Baja, what would I do ????

DanO - 9-8-2006 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drwnorth
.... DanO knows it all, how lucky can we be?

Hmmmm? Question this in the big time........

Gosh! If I didn't have all these KIA's in Baja, what would I do ????

Uh, not quite the clarification I was hoping for. It seems to be in code, except for the snark about me knowing it all, which is, sadly, untrue. Wish I did, but I still learn things every day, good and bad. Anyway, I'll speculate that KIA is "killed in action," and that drw is using it to refer to people who've had the temerity to die violently while in Baja, forcing drw to explain to all of us pollyannas that they had it coming. Am I close?

synch - 12-11-2006 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
Here's a funny story. Coming back north yesterday I pull out onto the highway from La Bocana/Puerto Santo Tomas, and join a long string of cars and trucks crawling up the grade to the top of the hill and the checkpoint. A guy in a new jacked up Ford 150 crew cab with a couple of ATVs, some kids' toys and camping equipment in the back coming from farther south is right in front of me, and apparently in a real big hurry. At the base of the first switchback, he pulls out to pass and takes about three vehicles before downhill traffic around the second switchback forces him back into line. At the top of the hill, the line from the checkpoint is stretched back about a dozen vehicles, and the guy takes a shot at pulling out of line and passing the cars waiting in line. This apparently catches the eye of the checkpoint guys, so the Ford driver wisely hangs back, but with the back end of his truck stuck out into the southbound lane, forcing a few southbound vehicles to negotiate around him. He goes through the inspection about the same time as us, then roars off. We mosey on down the road, stopping at a store for some sodas and snacks. As we pass through Ensenada, we see the Ford guy again. He's been pulled over by a motorcycle cop, who is writing him a ticket. The next time we see him is on the grade down to La Salina, where he blows by me and a semi going at least 100 mph, obviously steamed about the ticket, and now in an even bigger hurry (to do what, wait in line for three hours?). Just after he passes me, I pull out from behind the semi, and as I'm passing it, a big metal collapsing chair flies out of the Ford guy's truck and into my lane (I'm doing about 70), forcing me to jam on the brakes and swerve back in behind the semi to avoid hitting the chair. I assume the half dozen or so cars and trucks behind me had to deal with the same problem.

Wow!

tripledigitken - 12-11-2006 at 12:52 PM

drwnorth,

I don't agree with the statement that the Toll Road has had a bad reputation for 30 years.

I have lived in San Diego all my life (over 50 years) and have traveled south since age 6. If it was known that it was dangerous it was missed by me and my friends.

Yes,I have been "held up" for a mordida of $20 on a couple of occasions. But I also have been given a warning also. That is not what I would call dangerous. Especially in terms of other third world countries.

The incidents along the border are very recent events IMHO. I think most on this board would agree with that.

I also have left for trips typically crossing at 4am so as to time the sunrise south of Ensenada with never an incident.

I am questioning now if I will do that in the future, as others on this board are also doing.

Where are you coming from?

toneart - 12-11-2006 at 06:21 PM

Let me give it a try (without knowing it all). My intention is to be helpful. I don't want to get into trying to set the newby straight. That is being handled adeptly and eloquently by others.

It has been posted here, in other threads, that there is a new wave of violence in Baja. Most of this is in Tijuana. Regarding the toll highway between the TJ border and Ensenada, the recent (August) event that started all this discussion was when a Nomad pulling a trailer was shot. He survived by taking evasive action and drove like hell to the border. The cardinal rule that he broke, was driving at night; the event happened in the dark early morning hours, I think around 3:30 AM.

Was he responsible because he was there at the wrong time?
Well, the bad guys were the ones who shot him. They were there waiting for an opportunity and voila, along he came. Bet he won't drive that highway again at night! I think all of us benefited by the incident being reported on BajaNomad.

Then a woman was shot and killed near Catavina. Who knows if this is cartel related? It is quite a distance south of the border. I tend to think it was meth related. Let me be clear here: I am not inferring any responsibility on the part of the victim or her husband! Then there was the poor man who was minding his own business on a secluded beach, murdered, jeep and other personal effects stolen....nobody arrested.

Apparently they haven't caught the perps, nor have they caught anybody that has recently murdered.

I don't think it is valid to say, "more violence happens in the U.S", or "it is safer in Baja than in Los Angeles". By not valid, I mean in this context. This is a board that exists as a source of information about BAJA. So, Baja is the focus here. When something bad happens in Baja, the rest of us can benefit by that knowledge so that we can maybe avoid the mistakes that put the victim in the wrong place.

True, bad incidents have occurred to gringos in Baja since before Bernie started his adventures there. What is happening lately is that there is a cartel turf war happening. They are asserting themselves and demonstrating that they can't be stopped. Targeting gringos is a way to make a huge statement: "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone." There is also a lot more meth in Mexico now. It makes people delusional, desperate and crazy. Nobody is totally safe. The Police don't have the power to stop it. Indeed, the ones who try get murdered.

This kind of Baja-related news almost always appears here first. Much of it never makes the news in the U.S.

A lot of this is speculation; by others and by me. I don't know it all, but dammit, I know more than I did before reading and joining this board. I am not an adrenalin junkie and neither do I have a deathwish. I will still spend a lot of time in Baja. Figuratively, I will run a zig-zag pattern rather than in a straight line, armed with new information from my fellow Nomads.

Iflyfish - 12-11-2006 at 07:08 PM

Thanks toneart a very good summary of the situation as it is. I appreciate the clarity. I appreciate DanO for his clarity also. You both think very well and I appreciate your posts. We are fortunate to have friends like this.

Iflyfishwhennottryingtountiegordianknots

Al G - 12-11-2006 at 08:42 PM

Toneart...I take your points well and maybe right on target.
"""What is happening lately is that there is a cartel turf war happening. They are asserting themselves and demonstrating that they can't be stopped. Targeting gringos is a way to make a huge statement: "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""

I however think there is another more sinister plot unfolding.
At the root is Meth, and possibly survival.
This part of your assessment is not making sense to me:
""Targeting gringos is a way to make a huge statement: "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""
If you think about it...it is a huge statement, but do you think the military will not respond if they
""ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""
IF we are speculating, I speculate it is Gang bangers from LA/SD either deported or whatever. Just makes more sense to me. A bunch of gang bangers moving south fits time frame and the fact they could not speak Hispaniola(?) The poor guy in Mulege may not be part of this senerio, because of no guns, but may have been same bunch not carrying.
Just another point of view...

I hope that DRWnorth has headed NORTH... :fire:

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by Al G]

QuePasaBaja - 12-11-2006 at 09:10 PM

People are victims of crim, because of opprotunity. You give it to them, and they WILL take it.

If you have two locks on your door, lock them both. Lock your windows when you leave, and draw the blinds. The bad guys are waiting for you to be tired, and think. " I have loved here X years, and never had a problem.

toneart - 12-12-2006 at 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
Toneart...I take your points well and maybe right on target.
"""What is happening lately is that there is a cartel turf war happening. They are asserting themselves and demonstrating that they can't be stopped. Targeting gringos is a way to make a huge statement: "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""

I however think there is another more sinister plot unfolding.
At the root is Meth, and possibly survival.
This part of your assessment is not making sense to me:
""Targeting gringos is a way to make a huge statement: "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""
If you think about it...it is a huge statement, but do you think the military will not respond if they
""ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone.""
IF we are speculating, I speculate it is Gang bangers from LA/SD either deported or whatever. Just makes more sense to me. A bunch of gang bangers moving south fits time frame and the fact they could not speak Hispaniola(?) The poor guy in Mulege may not be part of this senerio, because of no guns, but may have been same bunch not carrying.
Just another point of view...

I hope that DRWnorth has headed NORTH... :fire:

[Edited on 12-12-2006 by Al G]

Al,

My statement, "ruin the tourist economy until they leave us alone," was a reference to the cartels, not the meth users. I don't think that is the mission of the meth users. I do think that meth users are committing some of these crimes and I agree that it is desperation and survival.

Yes, I do think the military will eventually intervene. There was a new post today to that effect; the military is intervening in Michoacan. I don't think they are in Baja yet for that purpose though. Between this issue and the political uprising, maybe the military is mobilizing, thereby not manning the checkpoints.

I don't think the cartels and cartel wannabes are the same malevolent force as the meth users. They may crossover in some distribution of meth, but as I understand it, the users are turning up among local populations, just as they do all over the world now. Also, I think the military's target will be the cartels. It is the cartels that have become armies with heavy weapons. The police are ineffective, afraid and/or involved. The meth users will fall through the cracks and continue to be a local police matter (such as it is).

I agree with you that some of the violence may be perpetrated by L.A. gang bangers. If we are speculating, they too are trying to move into the cartel drug wars. Some have been ID'd as such by robbery victims; English sounded like from north of the border; shaved heads; tattoos, etc.

toneart - 12-12-2006 at 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Thanks toneart a very good summary of the situation as it is. I appreciate the clarity. I appreciate DanO for his clarity also. You both think very well and I appreciate your posts. We are fortunate to have friends like this.

Iflyfishwhennottryingtountiegordianknots

Thank you, Fly.
Yeah, that DanO is right on!...very clear. :yes:

Violence against Tourists

Baja.Bim - 12-13-2006 at 09:22 PM

It does seem that the problem people have the problems.
The negative crowd keeps the black clowd over them and
leaves the rest of us free to enjoy life.

toneart - 12-13-2006 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja.Bim
It does seem that the problem people have the problems.
The negative crowd keeps the black clowd over them and
leaves the rest of us free to enjoy life.

Nice swagger, newby.

Attack on your first post. Is that the way you enter a party? Have you gotten any that way? Did the host or hostess say, "Cool....here's a drink?" :?:

pargo - 12-26-2006 at 01:03 PM

A week late and a buck short but here's my two cents:
The first thread of this post was a guy expressing a thought/question...simple enough you'd think. but true to form, here come the Nomad "sabe todos" jumping all over a guy with their been there done that, I know more than you, high horsed attitudes. I sense no smugness or arrogance except on the part of alot of nomads' replies. Violence is not just viloence. It's vilonece against us in a foreign country that we've come to love enormously....That's scary chit bro's And anyone who wants to share a thought on that should be able to do so without the kind hornets nest effect that it brings against you. Sometimes you get the feeling you're intruding on this forum. Maybe a good idea is to have a board rule which mandates a minimum of 20 years Baja experinece before you're allowed to open your mouth on this board. :mad:

and finally

Cypress - 12-26-2006 at 01:47 PM

Meth heads think? :?:

wtf?

k1w1 - 12-26-2006 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Nice swagger, newby.

Attack on your first post. Is that the way you enter a party? Have you gotten any that way? Did the host or hostess say, "Cool....here's a drink?" :?:

wtf is your problem? is this board just fill of grumpy & old rednecks who reside in Mulege (sp) ??
I mean c'mon ... Mulege is soooo ghetto for christo's sake.
Some of you are just jokers and you should just hurry along & expire already :bounce:

pargo - 12-26-2006 at 02:15 PM

klwl
Not in those exact words but my sentiments exactly bro

Summanus - 12-26-2006 at 02:29 PM

snort..puff, puff....OBVIOUSLY a pair of young whipper-snappers. :fire:

Listen here, sonny-boy....say, can you help an old codger out of this dang chair?...okay, thanks, ...now...uh...what was I saying again?

pargo - 12-26-2006 at 02:37 PM

Obviuos to who carnal? I'm fast approaching fiddy years. I am flattered nonetheless!...thanks Some- anus...oops, I mean Summanus :spingrin:

pargo - 1-2-2007 at 02:25 PM

Hey Triple,
You've qouted two persons posts. This is usually followed with a comment from the person who just quoted....Anything?

tripledigitken - 1-2-2007 at 02:37 PM

Pargo,

I posted by misstake before I added text.

My thoughts are what is the rap on Mulege..."soooo ghetto" by k1w1 and supported by you.

Also I'm hearing more elderly bashing again on the board. We went through that awhile back. None of us are getting any younger you know.

Seems to be a lot of cranky posts for the New Year.

Saludos

Ken

DENNIS - 2-22-2007 at 02:39 PM

Grover ----

Sorry but, your list is incomplete. These fine folks you mention all seem to be brown or black. What happened to equality? Where's whitey?

toneart - 2-22-2007 at 03:19 PM

The original topic was "Violence against tourists" as it applies to Baja. I think we have mostly agreed in the past that there is far more violence north of the border. I don't think we are unnecessarily dwelling on the subject down here but a heads up does help. It reminds people to remain aware. No need to let it ruin your day (unless it does).

Hurry up and build that border wall and keep the perps outta Baja. All is fine here in Mulege. Oh, and keep those young farts up there too.....just send us your women. :lol:

DENNIS - 2-22-2007 at 07:27 PM

toneart ----------

Right on

Bajalover - 2-22-2007 at 07:52 PM

Wow, a person can get lost trying to understand this thread. Starts with one thing and migrates to ?? who knows where?? Dang! When traveling anywhere an eye must always be kept open. Besides, if an eye isn't open.....how can you spot the women????? :light:

:moon::moon::moon:

DENNIS - 2-22-2007 at 07:59 PM

Yeah --------

Threads morph. Probably a sign that people get tired of saying and agreeing with the same thing over and over. It's kinda like watching your kids grow up. Change is expected.

SDRonni - 2-23-2007 at 03:05 PM

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/latin_america/jan-june07/mexi...

Ken Cooke - 2-23-2007 at 10:29 PM

Maybe I'll start a business where I just ride around with Baja tourists and stare down the bad guys!! :mad:

Hook - 2-23-2007 at 10:54 PM

Grover, would you email me this list the next time I decide to vacation inside of a ghetto surrounded by 8 million people? I'm sure I will need reminding. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 2-24-2007 by Hook]

The Gull - 2-24-2007 at 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Grover, would you email me this list the next time I decide to vacation inside of a ghetto surrounded by 8 million people? I'm sure I will need reminding. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 2-24-2007 by Hook]

Los Angeles seems to be a destination for vacationing tourists from other states and other countries. Has anyone heard of such a thing? With almost 3 shootings per day, it does seem a bit risky.

Not all the areas listed were "ghettos" (using your term). Also not all of LA is a ghetto. Also, there are not 8 million people in LA city. Maybe 3 million is closer to the mark. Hook, were you stretching to make a point?

The point that could be made is that the level of violence against these people in LA is never given much press - practically none. Compare that to the worldwide press given to the geezers attacked on a Costa Rica van during a land excursion off a cruise liner.

Example of hyperbole and exaggeration by the press to sell ads and fish wrap?

This Spring break, starting in a few weeks, will witness thousands of American young adults from colleges going to foreign countries to act in all nature of low class activities all in the name of fun. Here is a prediction...at least one story will appear on this board regarding an unfortunate situation between a university reveler and the Mexican cops or a major injury or a death will be reported. From now until that date, probably 100 people (real living people) will be shot in LA and hundreds more will be the victims of violent crime and nothing will appear in any major newspapers or world news systems.

Hook, do you want to place a wager on the possibility?

No hype, just facts. :no:

The Gull - 2-24-2007 at 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pargo
A week late and a buck short but here's my two cents:
The first thread of this post was a guy expressing a thought/question...simple enough you'd think. but true to form, here come the Nomad "sabe todos" jumping all over a guy with their been there done that, I know more than you, high horsed attitudes. I sense no smugness or arrogance except on the part of alot of nomads' replies. Violence is not just viloence. It's vilonece against us in a foreign country that we've come to love enormously....That's scary sh-t bro's And anyone who wants to share a thought on that should be able to do so without the kind hornets nest effect that it brings against you. Sometimes you get the feeling you're intruding on this forum. Maybe a good idea is to have a board rule which mandates a minimum of 20 years Baja experinece before you're allowed to open your mouth on this board. :mad:

and finally

Bravo Pargo, very accurate response. There are those on the board that act like differing views are only allowed when they differ. If there is a "cartel" in Baja, it is the opinion cartel.

The topic is violence and understanding its apparent uneven distribution.

By the way, I passed the "minimum requirements" 19 years ago.

fdt - 2-24-2007 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
Also not all of LA is a ghetto.

And not all of Baja is LA Cetto :spingrin:

DENNIS - 2-24-2007 at 01:51 PM

Yes Pargo---- Bravo...Bravo....................Bravo

And Bravo to you as well, Gull, for pointing this out. Who but you would have the time to dive into the anal's of history to retrieve these gems?
Thank you for your concern.

The Gull - 2-25-2007 at 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
And Bravo to you as well, Gull, for pointing this out. Who but you would have the time to dive into the anal's of history to retrieve these gems?

On more than one occasion I have offered that "reading is fundamental" to various brain bursts that appear on this board. While I admit to being guilty of over- or under-processing some posts, I have found it is more informative to read the entire string before I consider making additions. It is rewarding when someone provides a perspective that is unique and likely in the minority.

This string recently resurfaced with some of the normal exchanges of not sticking to the subject (like that is something new) and I just read it from the beginning.

I have found that there are Nomads who do not write very much, but they read a lot. It is a pleasure when someone recognizes a good post. There are Nomads who only feel comfortable expressing themselves in this manner on a U2U.

Thank you, Dennis :yes:

Hook - 2-26-2007 at 03:03 PM

yes, I was using hyperbole.

And ,yes, many people will be vacationing in the LA area. Which goes to show that you can fool some of the people all of the time, but we alread knew that.

And yes, I believe there are at least 8 million people surrounding the ghettos that made up the preponderance of shootings that Grover listed, regardless of where a line is drawn between cities.

What I'd really like to see is the per capita rate of violent crime in Baja as opposed to, say, LA county. But I doubt that RELIABLE figures are available from Mexico.

I still think Baja is relatively safe, especially if you avoid the TJ-Ensenada corridor.

But it's getting more dangerous. At least the trend is downward in most areas of the US.

The Gull - 2-26-2007 at 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I still think Baja is relatively safe, especially if you avoid the TJ-Ensenada corridor.

But it's getting more dangerous. At least the trend is downward in most areas of the US.

Last time I checked there weren't many options for entering Baja Sur by roads other than something that includes one or both of those cities.

Without the data you want (which you have already decided would be inaccurate) how do you assess that PER CAPITA violence is growing in that area? The fact is: none of us know!! We are only being fed the HYPE that sells fishwrap in the US and none of that is providing accurate and truthful data. We can see the population explosion with the massive building projects. It the denominator is getting bigger...

If as you say violent crime in the US is dropping in some cities, it isn't LA. Both the Mayor and the chief of police had to report the cold hard PER CAPITA facts to the public recently. Wrong trend!!!!

I'll tell you when Baja is most dangerous - Spring Break. You didn't take me up on my prediction...why not?

jeans - 2-26-2007 at 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
".... Who but you would have the time to dive into the anal's of history to retrieve these gems? "

Please wash them before sharing!

Hook - 2-27-2007 at 01:44 AM

Sure, I'll take that bet. But you'll lose because the other incidents of violent death in LA WILL be reported by major new systems. The Times diligently reports every incident of violent death in it's coverage area. So does the OC Register and they have the whole basin wrapped up with coverage. IT SELLS PAPERS! So, I dont buy this US coverup theory of yours, to the detriment of Mexico.

If you're talking about simple violent crime then, no, these papers wont report every incident. All instances in Mexico dont get reported either.

We are in agreement that there is no way of knowing the per capita rate of crime in Mexico. I was just stating a desire to know.

And finally, you need to read beyond the political posturing by Villarigosa and Bratton when the cameras are on. They like to hype gang activity lately, especially racially motivated stuff.

Here is a link showing crime statistics from the LAPDs own site. Violent crime, in fact virtually all forms of crime, went down in 2006. The trend has continued for several years....in LA and the nation.

http://www.lapdonline.org/crime_maps_and_compstat/content_ba...

Oh yeah......no police beheadings reported in LA either, unlike Rosarito.

But I guess the Times wouldnt report it anyway, huh?

[Edited on 2-27-2007 by Hook]

AmoPescar - 2-27-2007 at 01:56 AM

HOOK...

The San Diego Union Tribune is full of crime stories every day too, and the TV stations also do stories on the crime. It's seems amazing some days how much crime is reported. And yet, we know that it's not ALL being reported!

Miguelamo :no:

Hook - 2-27-2007 at 02:56 AM

The media LOVES crime and death, AMO. They'll report it every chance they get.

Gawd, just look at this Anna Nicole cluster#$%!

I was a radio reporter for a while and had to make the "blotter" calls to all the local police agencies to see if anything juicy happened. Every day, without fail.

Heard on the news coming home about this headless, handless, footless corpse found somewhere down by Otay in SD......this outta play well in tomorrow papers and TV news. :smug:

[Edited on 2-27-2007 by Hook]

DENNIS - 2-27-2007 at 07:18 AM

Jeans ---

I'm glad somebody's paying attention to my sick humor.

The Gull - 2-27-2007 at 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Heard on the news coming home about this headless, handless, footless corpse found somewhere down by Otay in SD......
[Edited on 2-27-2007 by Hook]

Whoever that was, they should have been a cop in LA and it wouldn't happened.

Hook - 2-27-2007 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Heard on the news coming home about this headless, handless, footless corpse found somewhere down by Otay in SD......
[Edited on 2-27-2007 by Hook]

Whoever that was, they should have been a cop in LA and it wouldn't happened.

This might be an interesting case to follow. Clearly, someone wanted this body to go unidentified for a while. No dental charts, no fingerprints. Kinda sounds like the work of the cartels.

Gull, no hard feelings here, I hope. We are intelligent persons, discussing things that matter to us, right? Predicting crime trends in Mexico is a murky science.......I am only playing hunches.

The Gull - 2-27-2007 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Heard on the news coming home about this headless, handless, footless corpse found somewhere down by Otay in SD......
[Edited on 2-27-2007 by Hook]

Whoever that was, they should have been a cop in LA and it wouldn't happened.

Kinda sounds like the work of the cartels.

Gull, no hard feelings here, I hope. We are intelligent persons, discussing things that matter to us, right?

Can't get offended on this part of the board.

Cartels? Yes, the "opinion cartels" from this board must have off-ed that person over by Otay for using the Tecate-Rosarito 2000 road instead of enjoying the traffic-filled wonderland of TJ. "Let that be a lesson to all Nomads" is the message. Headless and handless would likely slow down some of the unwanted differing opinions on the board.

Saludos Hook

AmoPescar - 2-27-2007 at 02:14 PM

Hey Hook...

I'd love to write more, but gotta run. ...On my way to take a Paternity test for A.N.S. ...

Amo

Hook - 2-27-2007 at 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmoPescar
Hey Hook...

I'd love to write more, but gotta run. ...On my way to take a Paternity test for A.N.S. ...

Amo

You too, huh? I gave my swab last week.

It's kinda like the lottery........ :lol:

The Gull - 2-27-2007 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmoPescar
Hey Hook...

I'd love to write more, but gotta run. ...On my way to take a Paternity test for A.N.S. ...

Amo

Study hard.

DENNIS - 2-27-2007 at 04:14 PM

:lol:

Good one Gull

marla - 2-28-2007 at 05:06 PM

Yes speaking as a member of the media, though I hate that term because it lumps legitimate journalists in with the most revolting trash tabloids, it's true the media loves crime. You know why? PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT. Personally I never watch TV news because it sickens me. Their motto is "If it bleeds, it leads." But everybody wants to know about crime in their area, me included. Also, who can help being fascinated by freak shows like Anna Nicole?

However I didn't mean to reply to get on a soapbox, I actually wanted to ask if there's any new news on Raquel's death. I enjoyed her cooking in Bahia and am wondering what's up with the motel and how Larry is doing?? It makes me sad to think of violent death reaching that lovely peaceful community and also makes me frightened about driving the highway. I wish I could assure myself that it wasn't just random violence that is going to strike me and my family next time we go down there, which is actually next week!

El Comadante Loco - 3-1-2007 at 07:12 PM

A group of nine of us were down in BOLA two weeks ago. Drove from San Deigo, no problems had a great time. There was major road work being done in town and the sails were up. A new Pemex is going in at the north end of town.
We fished with Joel and I did inquire if there was any news regarding Rachel's murder. The response was no news but reported that they had noticed a drop in visitors since Rachel's death.
Go and enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stickers - 3-14-2007 at 12:25 AM

Thank God they got that guy. Another lunatic freak with a gun. I loved going to that dessert place by the park in San Diego. Lots of really nice people there. This incident was really horrible. :mad:

Baja Bernie - 3-14-2007 at 05:12 AM

Just an observation.................some threads just never have the grace to die!

Seems to me most of the violence here was/is Nomads beating up on Nomads.

bajamigo - 3-14-2007 at 06:26 PM

Amen! We're great at leading ourselves astray.