BajaNomad - Build That Fence !

Build That Fence !

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MrBillM - 11-9-2006 at 10:19 AM

A poll taken in Mexico found that 70 percent of the population said they would move to the U.S. if it were possible.

I guess we know what an "Open Borders" policy as championed by Felipe Calderon would do to the U.S.

DENNIS - 11-9-2006 at 10:24 AM

I wonder who took that poll, Bill. Do you know? The figure doesn't seem realistic if a well-rounded segment of society was polled. Maybe it's seventy percent of that part of the population which is forced to eat rocks and twigs. That, I would understand.

Don Alley - 11-9-2006 at 10:54 AM

A poll taken throughout the state of Montana last January and February showed that 75% would move to Mexico if they could. :lol:

DENNIS - 11-9-2006 at 11:09 AM

I think they would do that just to distance themselves from Dick-Cabeza Cheney.

Al G - 11-9-2006 at 11:32 AM

Of what I have seen, and do not profess to being an expert, Mexico controls their border very well. If I were in Mexico illegally, how long would I last, how severally would I be punished? If I were caught working for cash and not supporting the Mexican Government, what would happen to me? If I committed crimes in Mexico and ran back to US, what would happen to me?
I am in favor of supporting the Mexican Government and hiring Mexicano workers at all levels if we have equal rights as Mexico. That will never happen if people on both sides are not documented..period. There is no other answer. If you think there is, please explain very clearly, and carefully. I think a 700 mile fence is a joke, when we need 2000 miles and 40 feet high and 40 feet deep. Let us create a new industry and all the new taxes form the workers will more then pay for it. Not to mention fair working conditions for the Mexicano. This fence will cost big business and save the tax payer from subsidizing big business.

Small Potato

Summanus - 11-9-2006 at 11:41 AM

I say...."Al G for Speaker of the House!"...fire Nancy.

another opinion.

comitan - 11-9-2006 at 11:47 AM

Great idea Al, 40ft wide, that would make a great 4lane freeway the length of the border just need pullouts for rest stops, Burger King Mc.D. KFC, and if we charge a toll it would pay for itself in 50 years. THE GREAT WALL OF THE AMERICAS.

Taco de Baja - 11-9-2006 at 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
A poll taken in Mexico found that 70 percent of the population said they would move to the U.S. if it were possible.

I guess we know what an "Open Borders" policy as championed by Felipe Calderon would do to the U.S.

Don't forget another poll shows that 68%, or so, of Mexicans believe that the American Southwest really belongs to Mexico, and that the U. S. stole it from them. :rolleyes:

The Fence is being built..and creates jobs.

Summanus - 11-9-2006 at 12:08 PM

- the new fence -.gif - 50kB

Al G - 11-9-2006 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Great idea Al, 40ft wide, that would make a great 4lane freeway the length of the border just need pullouts for rest stops, Burger King Mc.D. KFC, and if we charge a toll it would pay for itself in 50 years. THE GREAT WALL OF THE AMERICAS.

Sorry I meant "High", but to funny, because it is about the same as Deep meant to be underground.
Ya know, the real answer is a $100,000.00 per incident fine for hiring an illegal. Again on the back and in the face of big business.

[Edited on 11-9-2006 by Al G]

jerry - 11-9-2006 at 05:01 PM

ill never understand why so many people are so against big busness??
with out it there would be a lot of little people out of work
a sub-standered living
people make big busness because there standered of living is higher
big busness is fed with the wants of people
so shoot your self in the foot
its like lets fight poverty get a gun and shoot the poor people

comitan - 11-9-2006 at 05:23 PM

Jerry

Just making big business follow the law is not bad business or shooting yourself in the leg, It would be helping solve the immigration problem.

Iflyfish - 11-9-2006 at 05:45 PM

Jerry wrote "ill never understand why so many people are so against big busness??" and I think it is a good question. I have some ideas I would like to share on this topic.

The inherent flaw of Capitalism is that wealth accrues to a few. It is a pyramid scheme or monopoly game in which eventually a few people accrue all of the resources and then the people on the bottom rise up and overthrow the system. There are many examples in History, including in the USA. See the history in the USA and "free boot capitalists" called Robber Barons and the history of Trusts. They nearly destroyed the country with their schemes. Their machinations eventually led to the Great Depression. Look at China pre Communist Revolution; they were the best Capitalists in history till the bottom had nothing and therefore nothing to lose in overthrowing the government. The list goes on.

The inherent flaw of Socialism or Communism is that the basic needs of people are supplied as a right and thus there is a disincentive to production and creativity. Central planning schemes usually fail because they are not in touch with local issues and there is disincentive for both creativity and generativity. See the history of the Soviet Union as an example of the failure of centralized planning.

All economic systems need to find ways to effectively re-distribute wealth or the society becomes unstable. We see this dynamic tension on an ongoing basis throughout the world and throughout history.

It is in the balance of the needs of the Capitalists or Ruling Class and the Working people that produce stability over time. It is the dynamic checks and balances of these interests that produce stability.

Iflyfish

Al G - 11-9-2006 at 05:56 PM

Jerry...you misunderstand me. I am all for big/small business. I am on big business side. Without it we would be a very sad group. The chore we are charge with (read vote) is to protect the economy....Bussiness...from the left and to protect the people from out of control BIG business that will do anything legal and immoral , as well as illegal. Hiring illegals, is both illegal and immoral in taking advantage of people without status(papers) Let us just say I try to look at all sides of the fence, and truly at the fair/legal/moral side.
Our world is not bad, but we must try to keep it on the fair path.

[Edited on 11-10-2006 by Al G]

Lee - 11-9-2006 at 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I am in favor of supporting the Mexican Government and hiring Mexicano workers at all levels if we have equal rights as Mexico. That will never happen if people on both sides are not documented..period. There is no other answer. If you think there is, please explain very clearly, and carefully. I think a 700 mile fence is a joke, when we need 2000 miles and 40 feet high and 40 feet deep. Let us create a new industry and all the new taxes form the workers will more then pay for it. Not to mention fair working conditions for the Mexicano. This fence will cost big business and save the tax payer from subsidizing big business.

Small Potato

Geeze. You need to be published. Outstanding.

:cool:

TMW - 11-9-2006 at 07:36 PM

The fence is a waste of time, money and effort. If you want to stop illegals from coming in hit the people that hire them. But the problem is not so simple. Many of the companies that hire them do so because they need the help and can't find enough workers. that's especially true for the Ag industry. A guest worker program of some sort needs to be worked out that protects the worker and provides a work force. The Reps have had 12 years without any results now maybe the Dems can do something. Bush signed the law to build the fence, but there isn't any money to do it and I don't thing congress will provide any. Just another example of screwball politicians unable to get what needs to be done done.

mtgoat666 - 11-9-2006 at 07:45 PM

Big business is going to reap great rewards using undocumented workers to build the fence! Mark my words, the final cost of the fence will be astranomical and the fence will not solve the problem -- ultimately, the fence will be an embarrassment to the republicans. I cheer the republicans in their vain quest for self destruction.

Bajalero - 11-9-2006 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
The fence is a waste of time, money and effort. If you want to stop illegals from coming in hit the people that hire them. But the problem is not so simple. Many of the companies that hire them do so because they need the help and can't find enough workers. that's especially true for the Ag industry. A guest worker program of some sort needs to be worked out that protects the worker and provides a work force. The Reps have had 12 years without any results now maybe the Dems can do something. Bush signed the law to build the fence, but there isn't any money to do it and I don't thing congress will provide any. Just another example of screwball politicians unable to get what needs to be done done.

Some forget all too easily that a fence needs to be built for more reasons than to keep the poor from coming over and getting a job.

It's most important affect will be to stop people coming into the US who are not interested in getting a job at all .

You fricken people care at all that 3000 Americans were killed on 911 or do you just have a convenient memory.?

Like I said in another post , get this one built now so we can get started on the one from Vancouver to Maine

[Edited on 11-10-2006 by Bajalero]

Bruce R Leech - 11-9-2006 at 08:07 PM

I don't think that figure is right. I think all of the Mexicans that want to be in the USA are already there. If not then what is stopping them :lol:

jerry - 11-9-2006 at 08:27 PM

why big busness the target?? if im not mistaken small busnesses imploys more ppl then big busness
are small busnesses not hiring illagals?? just because everyone doing it dont make it right
the expence of the fence what a crock of bull
the good old usa has provided peace keeping forces for the whole world for the last 60 some yrs provide japan ,germany and a few others with all there defence and we cant afford a freaking fence for our own boarder??

i think ppl should read and understand the history of this country insted of looking at it like intidelments that everyone simply desirves what ever they want ( someone has to pay for it) business be it big or small imploys ppl and people pay taxes
taxes defend us
killing the golden goose will not get you where your going

jerry - 11-9-2006 at 08:35 PM

im not advocating that anyone should break the law and i think everyone in the usa should be legal just get tired of hearing money greedy big busness is the whole problem

Bajabus - 11-9-2006 at 09:05 PM

The fence is a joke. TW is right on with his comments.

WTF does 9/11 have to do with it? Like a friggin fence is really gonna even hinder for more than a few minutes someone bent on committing a terrorist act.

Jeez all I gotta do is come ashore in Florida with my phony drivers lic, walk into a gun shop, then head on over the the feed store, get a few bags of ammonium nitrate, 5 gallons of high octane gas and head to the Mall. (note I deliberately left out something from that equation for those who know such things and might want to point it out in a public forum, I do not)

What are you going to do lero put up a fence on the coastlines also?
How about land mines and machine gun turrets

bajarich - 11-9-2006 at 10:15 PM

What an incentive it would be to keep them in Mexico if all of the Gringos building houses down there actually paid the workers gringo wages instead of $10 per day. I think that some are real hipocrits when they complain about the Mexicans wanting to come to the U.S. but at the same time are taking advantage of the cheap labor down there. I'm sure it can be rationalized by saying that $10/day is the market rate, but the bottom line is they are just doing what workers in the States are told to do when they aren't being paid enough..."If this job doesn't pay enough, go find one that pays more".

Build a tall fence (very tall)

Stickers - 11-9-2006 at 10:24 PM

Quote:

You fricken people care at all that 3000 Americans were killed on 911 or do you just have a convenient memory.?

Like I said in another post , get this one built now so we can get started on the one from Vancouver to Maine

[Edited on 11-10-2006 by Bajalero]

I guess if we build a fence 60,000 feet high we can prevent another 911 and I must have memory problems since I always forget that those terrorist came from Mexico.

:lol:

vgabndo - 11-9-2006 at 11:02 PM

Bajalero:

Of the 19 Saudi and Egyptian murderers who attacked the US in 2001, can you tell us how many of them crossed the Mexican border on foot? If I'm not mistaken, when they committed their crimes, they were all flying highjacked airplanes. If I am not even further mistaken, there is nothing in the design of this fence that will keep airplanes out of the US. (A 40,000 foot tall fence maybe) While the fence might temporarily delay some certain stupid terrorists, it would be about as effective at preventing another 9/11 as me and my .22 pistol.

I don't think this fence is about protecting us from fear any more than it is a rational way to handle our need for cheap foreign labor.

Again I didn't look at the second page of posts :?:

I'm not really copying those very intelligent people with whom I was agreeing above. :lol:

[Edited on 11-10-2006 by vgabndo]

Iflyfish - 11-10-2006 at 01:25 AM

Just saw a great flick, A Day Without Mexicans. Says it all.

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2006 at 08:09 AM

Question for Bajabus and others.

What is you Solution to the Problem:

Words do not Count. Only Solutions that have Actions?

Does anyone know Why DOPE is no longer transported by Airplane from Mexico??

Does anyone Know Why the Berlin Wall kept People inside East Berlin???

Does anyone know the Difference in a Wall that Keeps People Inside as opposed to a Fence that Keeps People "Out"???

Skeet/Loreto

TMW - 11-10-2006 at 08:20 AM

Set up a guest worker program that IDs those coming into the U.S. to work and matches them with an employer. A physical fence is not needed. Besides tunnels can be dug under it. Technology already exist to monitor the border, it just needs to be put in place across all of it. If people can move across the border legally for jobs, less will try crossing thru the wilderness and deserts and our Border patrol will be better about to control it.

jerry - 11-10-2006 at 08:22 AM

skeet democrates dont have solutions they only condem republican ideas

wornout - 11-10-2006 at 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickers
I guess if we build a fence 60,000 feet high we can prevent another 911 and I must have memory problems since I always forget that those terrorist came from Mexico.

That's funny, I thought all the airplanes used in 9/11 took off from airports in the United States. I stand corrected and thanks for the education. I got to get out more!
:lol:

[Edited on 11-11-2006 by wornout]

Liberals and other Losers

MrBillM - 11-10-2006 at 10:01 AM

The Baja "residents" who become apoplexic over the Fence subject for the most part fall into three co-mingled groups.

1. The typical Fellow-Traveller Lefty who hates, and is ashamed of, most everything about the U.S. They believe that we are (and have always been) the World's Bully and are undeserving of the power and wealth our nation has produced. Born in another decade, they would have been among the multitudes in the 1930s who were in love with the Marxist movement in Russia and sat around in their secret meetings decrying all that the U.S. stood for, plotting the overthrow by the proletariat.

2. Those "residents" who are concerned that the fence and securing the border will reflect adversely on their residence in Mexico and wish for their neighbors to all know how oppressive they think U.S. policies are towards their adopted family and country in hope that they won't be grouped together with the "UGLY" Gringos who are so oppressing the downtrodden of the American Hemisphere.

3. The last group consists of those who are just plain too Dumb to rationally assess the situation at hand. The Dumbos class tends to be predominantly LeftWing, thinking that their lack of success in life is due to their oppression rather than their low mental faculties.

The shrill bloviating that "the fence won't work" is really just so much smoke. Secure fencing HAS worked where it has been used and patrolled. The Left has moaned often enough about the effectiveness of the fence when the subject was Illegals who have fallen in the desert because of it. Their real concern is that it Will work.

Regarding FAIR wages:

Whatever wages a Mexican worker earns is the responsibility of the Mexican government. They have the power to legislate adequate wage levels, but choose to do exactly the opposite. When the Macquiladoras were in full force, Mexican law prohibited individual employers from paying a wage above that which was set by the Government.

Bajalero - 11-10-2006 at 10:06 AM

Gee , Where did I say anything about airplanes ? I swear some of you are just a little too simple if that is the best retort you can come up with. :no:

The whole point and my only point is national security and that we need to control who and what comes in and out of the country. Plenty of people from many other places than Mexico sneak across our borders on a daily basis and some of those probably don't have the best intentions otherwise they wouldn't be sneaking.

Border issues have been with us a long time , and I realize many of you are far removed and it is not apparent what transpires here everyday . It's out of control, period , and the rest of the country is finally waking up to the fact because it is affecting their communities and pocketbooks.

the Fence

SUNDOG - 11-10-2006 at 12:23 PM

[img] http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/sundog/graphics/mexfree.jpg[/img]
All the fence will do is slow them down

Iflyfish - 11-10-2006 at 02:18 PM

Jerry says:
"skeet democrates dont have solutions they only condem republican ideas"

I first ran into this issue some forty-five years ago when I was introduced to picking fruit by “Braceros”. I learned that I couldn’t pick worth squat. The owners put me on a clipboard-counting bucket in less than an hour. I also learned that I could swap my brown paper bag, balloon bread, bologna sandwich, a bag of chips and a coke for a trip to the Taco Wagon for a steaming bowl of Chile Verde and corn tortillas and a beer to boot! Now that was a deal.

I also learned words that I can’t repeat here but caused other workers to laugh their asses off when they heard me say them.

I learned that most of these people had families in Mexico and earned money here so they support them and build a better life. Most wanted to build a house for their families.

I learned that these were some of the hardest working people I ever met.

I learned that I had better finish school cause there was no future for me in the orchard.

I leaned that there were some “bad apples” in the bunch and that the “good guys” would find ways to protect me from them.

I learned that the Bracero Program was a documented worker program like the one we have now. There were also “*******s” in the group who found their own way across the border to work. Later there was an “amnesty” declared and some of the people who wanted to stay and raise their families in the US were able to do so.

There is no simple solution to this problem. I know that people like simple solutions. Issues like poverty, lack of access to medical care, inadequate resources for infrastructure, public health, and education are chronic social problems that never have a “solution.” As a society, what we do is continue to evolve approaches that will never completely eradicate the problems we wish to solve.

It is interesting to note that undocumented Mexican and Latin American workers in this country put exponentially more money into the system than they take from it. I will not bore you with statistics and at this point. They are readily available. This issue has been well studied and documented.

Periodically it is politically expedient for politicians to haul out this perennial issue. Because there is no simple solution, it suits well the need
to slogan around it and to try to polarize the electorate. Are you for it or agin it?
You say that “democrats” offer no solutions. I beg to differ with you. The “solution” to this problem will be a combination of some sort of “amnesty” and increased border “security”. It doesn’t matter who is in power, these are the options available to us. These are the “solutions” that Democrats will come up with and the President will go along with. Then, someday in the future, during some election cycle, another candidate will try to bifurcate the world and bring this issue up again.

I think Robert Frost said it best in his Mending Wall

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors'.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Check out the flick A Day Without Mexicans. I think it addresses the issue well.

Iflyfish

bajarich - 11-13-2006 at 03:57 PM

I recently saw a T-shirt for sale in Telluride, Colorado. It had a band of American Indians on it dressed for battle. The caption said "Fighting Terrorists since 1492"

The Seeing Eyes

MrBillM - 11-13-2006 at 04:10 PM

There was a short segment on the a.m. Cable news regarding the border in New Mexico. Without any additional fencing, the deployment of the National Guard AND High-Tech Infrared sensing devices which allow one Guardsman sitting at a Laptop to survey many miles of border area and directing Border Patrol units to interdict those crossing has brought the crossings down by forty percent. It Works !

It was cool seeing the screen show even the Jack Rabbits as they crossed the desert area covered by the sensors.

Missing Details

MrBillM - 11-13-2006 at 04:26 PM

For those "inquiring minds" who want to know more about the details Hinted at by The BajaBus, a rich source of information is "The Anarchist Cookbook". It's also available online. Although out of print, it is still available at Amazon.com, among others, and is COMPLETELY LEGAL to purchase, although it's not Legal to build anything therein without proper authorization from the Federal and State Governments. Both Palladin Press and Delta Press are also an excellent source of numerous how-to books, although it appears that some of the titles I purchased in the past are no longer available.

It makes for good reading.

ME - 11-13-2006 at 04:45 PM

I run a small construction business and it is very hard to compete with companys that cheat, they pay thier Illagal labor under the table to avoid liabilitys such as taxes and insurance. all employers need to fear punisment from the goverment and until that happens nothing will change. My house is clean and I need a fair playing field.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-13-2006 at 07:34 PM

Me;
I am sorry to inform you that it is not only the companys that are "Cheating", it is the Whole Generation!!
Lying, Cheating, and Stealing has become Normal in the New Culture of the Present Young Generation.

You are right about some employers using illegals, not paying Taxes etc. on the other Hand there are problems getting any other Workers, there are just nobody who will do the Grunk work,Field Work, Dairy Work, Roofing Work.

We need to Stop the Flow.
Set up a Guest Worker Program
I.D. the remaining "Producers'
Heavy Fines and Closure on Employers who Cheat
Send the Criminals back and Let Mexico deal with them.

Skeet/Loreto

Do it ALL !

MrBillM - 11-14-2006 at 04:48 PM

I've said it so many times, I am tired of it, but DO IT ALL.

Secure the border with a combination of physical barriers and Electronic interdiction methods.

Identify, Arrest and Deport Every Single Illegal Resident that can be found.

Identify, Arrest, Jail and Fine Every Single Employer found to have knowingly hired an illegal alien.

That should make even the Libs happy since they Claim they object to the fact that employers are not being cited.

DENNIS - 11-14-2006 at 05:14 PM

The Vatican has joined the fray saying that the wall/fence is inhumane. The wall around the vatican is OK but the one proposed by the USA is inhumane.
Unbelievable.
Why cant these people get it? Why is there a fence around Disneyland? Nobody ever called that inhumane.

motoged - 11-21-2006 at 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Why is there a fence around Disneyland? Nobody ever called that inhumane.

Um, I'm not exactly sure but I thought it might be there to keep Mickey and Goofy from teaming up with the Girly Men that Arnold feels so threatened by.

Ged :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 11-22-2006 at 07:22 AM

Secure the Border.
Arrest and Deport all Criminals.
Allow all Illegals who are working and Produceing from Their Labors to obtain Green Cards or Citizenship.Treat those that Work with Dignity.

Give Employers the Tools and Methods to Assure Correct Idenity. If they fail and contunie to Hire Illegals- Close them Down! Spend an equal amount on this Program as is spent closing the Border.

Make it a Requirement that All-Americano and Mexicano Children Learn Spanish. .

Fire all of the Professors who Teach their Opinions instead of Facts.

Teach All of our Children Discipline, Respect, Responsibility, Kindness, Caring.

Teach our culture not to depend on the Govt. to take care of them!

Teach our Children not to FEAR.

Skeet/Loreto

Taco de Baja - 11-22-2006 at 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Make it a Requirement that All-Americano and Mexicano Children Learn Spanish.

Why?

--Larry

Did you mnot get the memo?

When Spanish becomes the official language of the United States, it will, by default become the official language of the World, like English is now......We have to be prepared.... :rolleyes:

jimgrms - 11-22-2006 at 08:55 AM

If you run a buisness and hire illegals you are breaking the law , if f caught you should be prosicuted if you are a illegal immigrant you should be deported and all your property in the us siezed to pay the cost . the fence is a joke

Skeet/Loreto - 11-22-2006 at 12:18 PM

When All of the Children of Americanos/Mexicanos Learn to Speak each others Lanuage it will inable them to understand each other for a more Positive relationship.

We all have to take Responsibility for our Acts, including the Condition of the influx of Mexicanos to the United States.

The Solution is not easy, try to think of the Economic Chaos that would follow if all the Mexicanos/Legal and Illegal/ would not be able to fill the Jobs they now have.

Jimgrms--All Highway Speeders and Tail-gaters should also be Shot , they are breaking the Law and putting my Life in Danger!!

Would you pay $10 for a Head of Lettuce{If you could get it.}
Would you Pay $10 for a Gallon of Milk{If you could get it?}.

Tell me where you can find millions of Workers to fill the Jobs the Mexicanos fill today- No BS, Just Facts Please.

Wake Up!

Skeet/Loreto

Taco de Baja - 11-22-2006 at 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Would you pay $10 for a Head of Lettuce{If you could get it.}
Would you Pay $10 for a Gallon of Milk{If you could get it?}.

Tell me where you can find millions of Workers to fill the Jobs the Mexicanos fill today- No BS, Just Facts Please.

Wake Up!

Skeet/Loreto

It would not cost that much, and even if the price went up the rates we pay for insurance both healthcare and vehicle would go down as we would not have to subsidize the cost uninsured illegals add into the mix....
The taxes we pay to send illegal alien children to school, illegal aliens to our jails, and infrastructure such as water, sewer, electricity, roads would also be reduced. Thus there would be a net cost savings.

Who would fill the jobs??? MACHINES. The illegal alien employers would be forced to invest in technology that mechanizes production. There is no incentive to do this with cheap labor provided by the illegals.

Some industries are already mechanizing. I remember as a kid in the 1970's the trash truck would come by and 4-5 guys (all Mexican, of course, as this was a job “no American would ever do") would be on the truck, one driving and the rest empting the trash cans into the truck. Now, there is one guy (Still Mexican), he drives a truck that has an arm on it. All he does is pull up next to the trash can, the arm grabs the can and dumps it into the trash truck. Start up was probably expensive, but now, one person does the work of 5, saving everyone $$. And the union driver gets $18.00/hour, plus benefits

These same old arguments have been used since the black salves were freed, and the Southerners uttered "Who will pick the cotton and tobacco if there are no slaves? Why, I do declare, a bale of cotton will cost at least $1,000, if you can find one”

Skeet/Loreto - 11-22-2006 at 02:23 PM

Taco: You are living in a Dream World!!

Think Man Think!

Robots for bending down to pick a Head of Lettude, place on a Converyor Belt.

Robots to climb the Roof and Nail on Roofing?

Robots to go out and Landscrape a Home?

Robots to drive in the cows so that the Milking Machines can somehow attach themselves to the Udder of a Cow?

Robots to Cut up the Beef in all of the Meat Factories?

Robots to Rope a Cow, tie down and shoot Medicine into a Vein?

Robots to Climb and Appletree and pick the Fruit?

And Last, Robots to serve you Coffee at Mac.s?

You must have been rasied in the City where all of those goods you Eat, use were provided for by Robots.

Just came back yesterday from Lubbock Texas and observed the Annual Picking of cotton with Machines. Who do you think were running those Machines, Balers, Presses?

You cannot find many Americanos to do those Grunt Jobs! They are too busy playing with their Game Boys, riding around in Momma and Daddy's Cars, going to College, learning how to get at least 1/2 of all those who are working and paying taxes with out doing a Days Work

You must have read "The HandMadians Tale""..

Skeet

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 03:10 PM

What are you talking about Skeet ----
Nobody wants to see an end to guest labor. We need it.
Nobody wants to pay too much for milk, and we wont unless those cows are illegal.

What I want is respect. I want Mexicans to enter our country legally.
What I want is a neighbor country which doesn't treat us as if our laws dont matter.
What I want is a Robert Frost border when he said, "Good fences make good neighbors".
What I want is equal rights and treatment because, if I were to be traveling with a bunch of illegals on there passage across the border and apprehended, I would go to jail and the Mexicans would be flown home.
What I want at my home is a guest who comes through the front door and, not through the back window.
Mostly what I want is a government that will enforce our laws. Period.

Taco de Baja - 11-22-2006 at 03:17 PM

So let me get this straight.

20 years ago only “lettuce picker” and trash collector was on the list of jobs that Americans would not do.

10 years ago landscaper showed up on the list.

Now it is:

Roofing
Cow milking
Cow butchering
Cow doctoring
Coffee server, and
several others you did not mention.

What will be on this list in 20 years?
Ill tell you. It will be all jobs, because by then the invasion will be complete, and even the American lawyers, doctors, accountants, sports players, actors, computer technicians, etc wont work for the slave wages that the Mexican lawyers, doctors, accountants, sports players, actors, and computer technicians will work for....
But on the bright side you can get your appendix removed for $50.....And then be able to find a cheap lawyer to sue the doctor who removed your sphincter instead of your appendix :rolleyes:

It’s not about “jobs American will not do” It’s about jobs Americans want to be paid fairly to do. And when you have a slave labor force that will take anything more than what they make in their home country, you create the situation we have now.

[Edited on 11-22-2006 by Taco de Baja]

Cypress - 11-22-2006 at 03:17 PM

Dennis is speaking for a lot of folks. :yes:

Cypress------Your sure got that one right!!!

Barry A. - 11-22-2006 at 03:23 PM

What Dennis said above is EXACTLY how I feel.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 11-22-2006 at 04:24 PM

Dennis. You are 100% correct! I want the same thing ,but what about all the Legal Mexicanos who are here doing all the Work? As well as the Illegals?

Are you going to Ruin the Economy While you are rounding up the Illegals?

Are you going to take care of all the Babies born here{American Citizens}.

Would it not be better, each time you deport an Illegal from a Job- Take a Dope Addict off the Streets of LA and force him to do the Illegals Job?

In Amarillo Texas every morning there is a line up for Day Work_Guess What- No Mexicanos!! They already have work! Mostly White and a few Blacks are standing in the Lines.

I would like very much for you to show me some of those Americanos "Want to get paid Fairly to do". Where are these People??
We have so many jobs back here that we have trouble getting anyone to work, other than the Mexicanos.

Ever been Hungrey and out of Work Barry A., Cypress, Dennis, ????

You guys are Spoiled!!!!

Skeet

comitan - 11-22-2006 at 04:26 PM

I go's with taco's & dennises.

Skeet

Barry A. - 11-22-2006 at 04:39 PM

-----I started working as a bag boy in a grocery store at 14. From that day until now, I have only been out of work (unless I wanted to) for 2 weeks, and that was because I was fired, and did not know it was coming.

Yes, I worked slinging hamburghers at Jack-in-the-Box, lots of construction, and lots of other strange jobs that I found as I stumbled along----there was always "something". Until I went to night school and got my College degree (with a non-working wife and 2 new kids), all my jobs did not pay that well. Things changed after that "degree".

So, yes, I DO have a hard time understanding.

It is hard for me to work up much sympathy for those who "can't find work"------I, to this day, see "help wanted" signs all the time.

We are talking about "ILLEGALS", NOT LEGALS, when we say to "enforce the laws". Illegals came into this country with their eyes wide open, and they are accountable, like everybody should be. What comes from their illegal act is their problem-------if they truly had any gumption, and we enforced our laws, they (and us) would find a way to solve the problems.

Now, lets get on with it.

Cypress - 11-22-2006 at 04:42 PM

Spoiled! :rolleyes:

Is it necessary to insult someone just because they disagree with your opinion? :?:

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 05:08 PM

I'm not saying that we should change anything which is happening in the states now. I dont agree that there should be a round-up of illegals and I see no benefit in the impossible task of regulating those who are already in the country.
Personally, I dont even care that employers hire cheap labor. If I were an employer, I would probably do the same.
My discomfort comes from the fact that we are tacitly mandated to accept the insult from Mexico that our desires, our necessities, our laws dont apply to them. Their needs trump our laws.
How can this point be lost, even from the casual, liberal observer?
The Mexican worker is a saint, in my book. The Mexican government is a sinner because they wont foment jobs for their people. They could do it, but wont.
Twenty billion dollars, coming from their unemployed isn't a bad deal for them.
That's enough for now.
Thanks

TMW - 11-22-2006 at 05:33 PM

Why is a Cuban legal if he makes it to the U.S. soil but not a Mexican.

Cypress - 11-22-2006 at 05:36 PM

Good question TW! :?:

TMW - 11-22-2006 at 05:36 PM

Take a look at bananas in the grocery store. They are about the cheapest fruit you can buy, yet they are not grown in the U.S. So the question is, why would other fruits and vegtables be any more expensive if there were no workers to pick the crops in the U.S. and we imported them.

Hmm ? Let's See.

MrBillM - 11-22-2006 at 05:39 PM

Because it's the (Federal) law !

Cuban refugees are automatically deemed political refugees if they make it here. They do live in a Communist Dictatorship, after all.

Mexicans (rightly) are considered Economic refugees and are not eligible for asylum.

TMW - 11-22-2006 at 05:43 PM

If a Cuban lived a while in Mexico, maybe a year or two (let's say he was there on a sports thing and abandoned the team) and then crossed into the U.S. illegally would he still be given legal rights?

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 05:49 PM

Because the U.S government will do anything to pee-off Castro. They dont want to pee-off Fox because he has been such a staunch supporter of the U.S., especially on the Gulf War issue.

By the way ---- Did everybody see the list of cabinet nomonees for the Calderon cabinet? Most all, educated in the United States.
I guess we arn't all that bad after all.

TMW - 11-22-2006 at 05:57 PM

"[Did everybody see the list of cabinet nomonees for the Calderon cabinet? Most all, educated in the United States.
I guess we arn't all that bad after all.]"

The more well to do in TJ send their kids to school in the U.S. many if not most to private school. Many live in Chula Vista.

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 06:13 PM

Or La Jolla ------- Or better

The point is, they return to Mexico and adopt the PC stance that the U.S. is the devil and can barely be tolerated.
The U.S. is used by Mexico. The poor use us and the rich use us. When they are done with us, we are the enemy.
So, if you think I'm wrong, just keep your hands around your ankles.

mtgoat666 - 11-22-2006 at 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Because it's the (Federal) law !

Cuban refugees are automatically deemed political refugees if they make it here. They do live in a Communist Dictatorship, after all.

Mexicans (rightly) are considered Economic refugees and are not eligible for asylum.

Whether you are born on one side of a border or another is possibly random, in many peoples eyes. I can't fault anybody for trying their best to jump a border to better their life. All this talk about "but it's illegal!!!!" is silly B.S. Hey, if they got the gumption to come here, I aint going to complain or try to kick them out. I suspect they contribute more to the economy than they cost our economy. Personally, I find immigrants harder working people and generally more morally upright than the lard-asses that have been here for several generations.. I think we should start kicking out the lard-asses that have been here too long and no longer work as hard as the immigrants.

mtgoat666

k1w1 - 11-22-2006 at 07:45 PM

give it up bud, nobody's listening. All these rednecks have grabbed the bottle of hand lotion and are watching O'Reilly on Fox!

mtgoat6666 and K1w1--------

Barry A. - 11-22-2006 at 08:06 PM

I am speechless (almost) !!!!! This seems so simple------why do you not get it???

I am not "blaming" the Mexicans for trying to "better their life"------I am simply saying that the "rule of law" is the glue that holds Democracies, and civilizations, together, and those that break the law are at risk, and they KNOW it, and must except the consequences of their actions.

All the rest of the arguments are just so much fog-----"rule of law" is the issue.

That's it!!!!!!

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 08:31 PM

Barry ---
That's how I see it as well. Laws are laws.......not just suggestions.

kiwi --------
By the way......... O"Reilly is an A-Hole. I form my own opinions.
I know what you're thinking so dont bother responding.

Hehhhhh??????

Barry A. - 11-22-2006 at 08:33 PM

O'Reilly is looking out for us "Red Necks", and the other 150 million in this country.

DENNIS - 11-22-2006 at 08:45 PM

That's OK Barry........ He's your hero, not mine. I'm independent in my political beliefs and cant make room for modern day N-zis. Although he and I would agree on some things, as we do, I will always agree with your choice of friends.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-23-2006 at 05:57 AM

Dennis- Dennis; You finally gave away your Grand Secrets:

"I Know what you are thinking". Dennis You do Not, I repeat you never know what the other Person is thinking!!

That is a Grand Fault in your EGO.

I too have Opinions based on my "Life Experiences" instead of being influencied by a "Ward Churchill" type Liberal College Professor.
But that is the way of some People, they only know how to call People Names, Blame everyone else for their own Shortcomings---Never being Hungrey, Cold, having thier Mamma give them everything they Want instead of being Disciplined with a good Wack on the Bottom.

Instant Gratification
Drugs
Gameboys
Rap Music
Nudity
Profanity
Booze

Skeet

Cypress - 11-23-2006 at 07:28 AM

mtgoat666!!! That's exactly the way I feel about the issue. :bounce:

Cypress - 11-23-2006 at 07:31 AM

except for the law breaking aspect of it

oxxo - 11-23-2006 at 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

I am simply saying that the "rule of law" is the glue that holds Democracies, and civilizations, together,

So many of the threads on Baja Nomads are dedicated to "how do you get around Mexican laws." How do I circumvent customs at the border, how to use VHF for land communications, how to get out of paying a speeding ticket when you admit you were speeding, etc.

If "laws are laws” isn’t every law just as important as another? Or do we get to decide, on an individual basis, which laws are important and which aren't?

Perhaps an illegal Mexican immigrant just feels that U.S. immigration laws are just not important to him, just like some expatriates sneaking some household goods across the border into Mexico.

Just not the same you say? Who exactly gets to decide what law is important and what law is not? Common sense dictates what is important you say? Whose common sense? Too many Americans have the "holier than thou" syndrome thinking they get to decide what is important for everyone else.

But then there is the other side of the coin.

A friend a mine, who is a physician, relates this story. An illegal immigrant from Mexicali walked into an acute care clinic in California with a very serious, life threatening illness that had been diagnosed (but untreated) in Mexico months earlier. Two weeks later he was released from the clinic with a $100,000 bill at the clinic and additional charges from 3 attending physicians (one my friend). The patient paid nothing, he had "no money" and of course no insurance. He received a "free" service in the U.S. that he would have had to pay something for in Mexico. My friend was not concerned about his fee; he said he gives free services all the time to the indigent, both legal and illegal. His concern was about the clinic. The clinic had a $500,000 capital improvements budget for that year. The free service to this patient came out of the clinics capital improvements budget and reduced it by 20%. My friend said that 5 years ago there were 11 acute care clinics in our area. Today there are just 2 and they are in danger of closing because of lack of funds.

Illegal immigration is a very complicated issue, one that will not be solved or resolved on this Board. However, let us all be careful about being hypocrites.

DENNIS - 11-23-2006 at 09:00 AM

Oxxo -----
You make very good points and I agree, hypocrisy is evil. Did your friend, the doctor, loose money for his altruistic efforts at the clinic? I hope not.
Would he continue to treat the needy poor if he had? I would hope so but, he probably wouldn't do that for long.
Back to the point. Is it hypocritical to expext our laws to be respected? Should I declare Grand-Theft Auto laws to be invalid because I cant afford to buy a new car?
Your allusion to the border game is right-on. Some like to see it as an effort to pay fewer taxes. In the U.S., that is an honorable endeavor. Im not refering to tax evasion, Im refering to what one would pay a good tax attorney to do. Many of the Mexican customs inspectors have their price as well. All in all, I couldn't use the Mexican port of entry as a showpiece of high moral behavior. It's just the nature of the beast and, personally, I dont believe it will ever change.
Anyway, your points are well taken.

Oxxo-----

Barry A. - 11-23-2006 at 09:13 AM

Excellent post, but it skirts the issue, I believe. So here I go again: If you break the law, any law, then you should expect to have to pay the penalty. Everytime we break a law (any law!), and are ALLOWED to get away with it with no consequences, the principal foundations of civilization are erroded a little, and we all suffer a little. The more important the "law", the more suffering will occur when it is broken.

That is my sincere belief.

All the arguments that refute or mitigate this principal, to me are just avoiding (side stepping?) the inescapable truth, and making life far more complicated than necessary.

Making things complicated is the main reason that "issues" are not resolved. There is often room for considering the "complications" of life, but not when it renders a particular "issue" unresolvable.

Gored Ox

MrBillM - 11-23-2006 at 09:56 AM

B.S.

ALL laws are not equal and anyone who feels differently has a severe cognitive disability. IF observing ALL laws had equal value, the penalties for not doing so would be equal. However, nobody is proposing the DEATH Penalty for illegal use of a Marine VHF radio. ANYONE who says that they obey every law in the U.S. or Mexico is either a Liar or bedridden and paralyzed from the neck down. The HARM created by using a radio or exceeding an unreasonable speed limit on an open highway is trivial. Illegally entering a foreign country and creating an economic and CRIMINAL (check the number of illegals in the Criminal Justice sytem) problem of huge proportions is NOT.

oxxo - 11-23-2006 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
ALL laws are not equal and anyone who feels differently has a severe cognitive disability. IF observing ALL laws had equal value, the penalties for not doing so would be equal. However, nobody is proposing the DEATH Penalty for illegal use of a Marine VHF radio.

Let's see, the last time I checked, the penalty for illegal immigration into the U.S. was a free ride back to the border and deportation. No fine, no jail time, nothing. So using your logic, illegal immigration is of little consequence (at least according to the penalties). If you are caught using a VHF illegally, you will be fined at the minimum. So therefore illegal immigration is of lesser consequence than illegal use of a VHF.

I see that you, MrBillM, have set yourself up as the final arbiter of what laws to obey and what laws not to obey. According to the logic of Barry A (a democracy depends on laws), YOU are the greatest threat to a free democracy. If everyone used your logic it would be chaos and anarchy. From a Psychology perspective, you suffer from the "I'm okay, you're not okay" syndrome.

However, next time I can't decide which law to obey, I will contact you and ask your permission......NOT.

I'll be visiting San Felipe tomorrow. Look for me; I'll be the one driving the posted speed limit. I'm in no hurry. You will, no doubt, be the one riding my bumper. Yes, I will pull over to the right so that you can pass in your Dodge Ram, 380 c.i.d., girlie-man twuck as you give me the finger.

Taco de Baja - 11-23-2006 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

I suspect they contribute more to the economy than they cost our economy. Personally, I find immigrants harder working people and generally more morally upright than the lard-asses that have been here for several generations.. I think we should start kicking out the lard-asses that have been here too long and no longer work as hard as the immigrants.

You suspect?
Based on what? Let's look at one issue, Education. It costs approximately $10,000 per student per year to get a so called "education" in a public school in California. If a small family of illegals comes up to the US (dad, mom and their 5 kids), that's $50,000 in taxes for "education". Your telling me his family contributes $50,000 into society? Please! And this is not even counting the food stamps, medi-cal, free school lunches and breakfasts, healthcare, the family also receives.

I agree on the lard asses comment. I have an idea :light:

lets ship our lard-asses to Mexico and demand that Mexico provide for them, including providing them with translators for government services, and English ballots so they can vote in mexican elections....Especially since we know the lard asses will be too lazy to learn Spanish. :rolleyes:

It could be part of the free trade agreement. One US lard-ass in exchange for an illegal worker.

MrBill is wandering into virgin territory------

Barry A. - 11-23-2006 at 11:46 AM

-----it seems to me. WHO said that all laws have equal value??? Of COURSE they don't.

What I said is that "when people break any laws, they ought to expect the consequences, etc, etc"----whatever those consequences are. (and they are not equal)

But yes, I do still believe that breaking any law, no matter how trivial, is still erroding the society (etc.), even if ever so slightly. Yes, we all do it from time to time, often unintentionally-----some more than others-------but my premise is still valid, it seems to me. Bad laws shouldn't be ignored, they should be abolished!!

Breaking BIG laws, like the laws of immigration, have devastating effects on the society (and so on) for all the reasons (and more) that have been laid out in this thread.

Lecho---------a no-brainer!!!

Barry A. - 11-23-2006 at 02:57 PM

You are being a good citizen.

Now, write a letter to the editor of the local newspaper and state how rediculous the 60km per hour limit is, and try to recruite (sp ?) more to do the same, etc.. if you don't like that law. Isn't this the way it is supposed to work???

To do otherwise is to subvert the system, cause confusion, get tickets, pay fines, and generally make a mockery of traffic laws, at least as they relate to that particular highway-----boy, THAT is a real solution, (NOT). Democracy only works if the majority of the populace supports it (but you know that).

Like I said, a no-brainer. Now, if you don't want to jump thru all those hoops, then just obey the law------what is so hard about that??? (I am beating my head against a solid wall, aren't I)

DENNIS - 11-23-2006 at 02:59 PM

Both.

I love trick questions.

Oxen, Cabras and Manure.

MrBillM - 11-23-2006 at 03:48 PM

Just to be completely clear on the question regarding the LEGAL penalties for ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, although as a practical matter the majority of the border jumpers are simply rounded up and dumped back across the border, this is simply a vehicle used by Immigration because of the tremendous backlog of cases in the Justice system. The Authorities have the RIGHT to actually charge and prosecute those they roundup, in which case PRISON TERMS can be applied. This is only done in rare cases, again because of the backlog.

Your analogy is completely without merit (as are you, in my always humble opinion). It would be more appropriate to compare the current situation with a traffic stop where you were guilty of the offense, but the officer decided to let you go with a warning.

BTW, sadly, I haven't ventured into Virgin territory in many years.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-23-2006 at 07:27 PM

"Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves"" A very good demonstration contained in the Above Threads.

Which are Which???

SENT WITHOUT COMMENT

Barry A. - 11-24-2006 at 09:50 AM

JUST RECEIVED BY E-MAIL FROM A FRIEND:

For Your Information.........

New FBI Statistics on Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

Sunday 12 November 2006, by admin

After reading these statistics, I could cry. We have an invasion and no one seems to care. Worse, the "McKennedy" Bill (McCain and Kennedy) would give legal status to these law breakers. If we want to control murder, rape and vicious crimes, we may not need Three Strikes, what we need is to find and deport the criminals who are here as illegal aliens. The FBI already has a list of sexual predators here illegally. In May they, along with the Salinas, California police picked up 40 of them. Why not pick up the thousands of sexual predators that the FBI know are here in this county illegally?
Now is the time for crime groups, police and law enforcement groups to stop playing politics, stop endorsing candidates, and to start enforcing the law. Our public officials must act now, the citizens of Simi Valley, Ventura County, of California and of the nation are not safe. Read this FBI/ statistics and weep for the victims of our government not enforcing the laws.
These statistics were published at www.polipundit.com
Write your thoughts directly on the web site for all to see and discuss. Pass this along to your friends, family and especially to law enforcement and elected officials. Ask them why they are not doing more to protect our community from the criminal element of the illegal aliens. Steve Frank
INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants
CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.
86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually
53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.
71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes".
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.
63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens
66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S.citizens.
97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.
66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers

Taco de Baja - 11-24-2006 at 10:51 AM

^^^

Barry,
I guess that is what people mean when they say that illegals "contribute more to society....."

Cypress - 11-24-2006 at 02:38 PM

I'm thinking that the phrase "howling at the moon" sums up most thoughts on this issue. :yes:

"Wolves" howl at the moon-----

Barry A. - 11-24-2006 at 03:02 PM

----I see NO posts by wolves--------just several suspected "sheep", and a few concerned "sheep dogs", some more agressive than others.

DENNIS - 11-24-2006 at 03:30 PM

What ever happened to that crocodile found in the Rio Bravo? [ not just a pretty lure either]
Why build a fence when you can bring more water to the region and fill the new canal with crocks, like a moat? That would be a barrier with a reasonable intent all around. Irrigation added to a home for an endangered species as well as a tourist attraction.

Grover-------

Barry A. - 11-24-2006 at 05:57 PM

Oh my God--------If what you say is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I have helped perpetuate stuff that is really questionable, and for that I apologise to everybody on this board. I don't know what else to say?

I really don't know who to trust anymore. That "piece" came from what I thought was a reliable source (a Superior Court Judge), but maybe he did not know either---------the blind leading the blind?????

I give up.

DENNIS - 11-24-2006 at 06:08 PM

Jeezo Barry, will you ever get over the shame you brought upon yourself?

Just kiddin. This site is a nice blend of fact and fiction, not a court of law. Your post made for interesting reading. Besides, who said it wasn't accurate?

Paula - 11-24-2006 at 06:17 PM

To post these statistics without knowing whether they are true or not is highly irresponsible. Barry, your apology should be to the group of people you defamed. Yes, they are all lawbreakers in your eyes, but try to see beyond that and realize that they are human beings doing the best they can to take care of themselves and their families. I have no statistics to back my statement, but I do read on this issue from a wide variety of sources, and keep an open mind about people in any diverse group. Illegal immigrants are just that, and anyone making blanket assumptions about them is acting irresponsibly.

Diver - 11-24-2006 at 06:21 PM

Her's an interesting tidbit FYI;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hispanics lead drunk-driving arrests, accidents
Federal study: Car crashes 3rd-leading cause of death for Latinos

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 12, 2000
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By David Walsh
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

Hispanic drivers, as a whole, experience a disproportionately high number of drunk-driving arrests and accidents -- along with alcoholism, drug abuse, "macho" attitudes and illiteracy key factors -- according to a long-overlooked federal study that shows car crashes are the third leading cause of Hispanics' deaths.

The report, released back in 1995 by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, says that while Hispanics comprised 9 percent of the driving population, "21 percent of those arrested for impaired-driving nationally were Hispanic." They also are involved in proportionately more crashes than whites or blacks, the study showed.

The 195-page document, "Highway Safety Needs of U.S. Hispanic Communities," was based on phone surveys and material submitted by over 100 agencies. Surveyed were Latino community leaders, focus groups, alcoholism and drug-abuse experts, clerics, health and social workers and law enforcement officers.

The study covered heavily Hispanic eastern, western and southwestern regions of the country, and was further broken down for ethnic subgroups: Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatemalan, Nicaraguan, Puerto Rican and Cuban.

The study noted several factors in the high incidence of deaths and injuries, most based on machismo, or "macho" cultural norms. These included:

drag racing.
"proving" one can drink and drive.
the combination of alcohol and illicit drugs.
the enforced silence of young males' girlfriends.
the growing tendency of Latino girls to engage in the same behaviors.
speeding and reckless driving.
inattention to or inability to read signs and signals.
the custom of gifting sons with powerful sports cars, which often end up demolished.
combining alcohol with illicit drugs and inhalants.
Collectively, these factors produce a grim harvest. Auto accidents were number-three overall in the cause of death among Hispanics, the study said, along with countless serious injuries.

Despite the study's major breadth, scope and implications, Robin Meyer, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's Safety Outreach chief, did not know of any media coverage of its findings.

Meyer added, though, that largely due to the study, NHTSA had rapidly accelerated its safety and educational programs for Hispanics. One, in Texas, was credited with reducing infant deaths. It stressed to mothers the importance of "car-seating" babies rather than holding them.

But the federal official could not say if Hispanic-caused U.S. road fatalities and injuries had declined since the study's release.

The study found that accidents were the third-leading cause of Hispanic deaths overall, the second-leading cause for 24 to 44-year-olds and the chief killer of young people aged 17 to 24. The numbers grow with the influx in the Hispanic population, it stressed, adding that the group is growing at seven times the rate of the American population as a whole.

The continuing rise in mortality, the NHTSA document concluded, "is a matter of great concern and points to the need for intervention."

DENNIS - 11-24-2006 at 06:26 PM

Interesting stuff Diver ---- ancient but interesting.

Paula--------

Barry A. - 11-24-2006 at 07:02 PM

My God, the statistics came from a SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE!!!! If they are wrong, or not totally accurate, then of course I am very sorry--------it is not my intention to mislead people, no matter how strongly I feel about this issue.

Nobody loves the Mexican people more than I do----NO BODY!!!! But we HAVE A PROBLEM, and it is screaming for a solution-----------borders are just that, BORDERS, and the laws concerning them SHOULD BE ENFORCED.

Those that feel the same as I do, are NOT against the Mexican People, or poor people--------we are against CROOKS!!!

No amount of "saying" that we are somehow BAD for feeling the way we do will make it so, and I will be darned if I am going to RESEARCH every piece of information that comes my way.

Barry

Paula - 11-24-2006 at 08:30 PM

Barry, I didn't mean to say that you or anyone else on the board are bad people because of the opinions you hold. You are correct that we have a problem with illegal immigration. The problem that I see as most serious is that people are dying everyday trying to cross. A large part of the responsibility for the problem rests with the Mexican government and economy.
The issue is personal for me because of the circumstances of some of my neighbors here in Mexico. A grandmother whose daughter moved-- illegally-- to San Diego has not seen her daughter for 8 years. She has had one visit from her oldest grandaughter who can enter and leave Baja legally, but the cost of the trip may prevent it from happening again. I met this "illegal" family in San Diego when I picked up gifts "Juanita" wanted to send to her mother. Juanita doesn't speak English, and misses her home and family, but feels she has done the right thing for her 3 children. They are all bilingual, excellent students, college bound, bright and delightful. This is the story for many families split up by the border, however it was crossed.
So what I would like to see is the tone of the conversation here take into consideration that these are people just like us that we talk about. I have seen immigrants referred to as baby rapers here. I have read that 95% of murder warrants in LA are for Mexicans. I doubt the statistics, and I don't see that this kind of fear-mongering does anything to bring about a solution to the above mentioned problem. I suspect that "illegal" immigrants may statistically fall pretty much in with the rest of the population. Some are criminals, some are deadbeats, and most work hard doing the best they can. To place a dollar amount on their cost to the US government versus their contribution to society belittles us all, and makes constructive dialogue leading to a solution almost impossible.
So I am sorry to have offended you Barry, but I guess I got your attention anyway. And I really don't doubt that you care as much as I do for the Mexican people.

Paula-----

Barry A. - 11-24-2006 at 09:00 PM

Thank you for your sincere response.

I am not really "offended", but I do admit I did get rather HOT under the collar-------------as often happens when it appears that there are perceived personal insults (highly irresponsible, etc.) being thrown about. I have always contended that NOTHING can be accomplished if we hurl insults at each other----in fact it accomplishes exactly the opposite of what we wish to accomplish, namely to "convince" another person of the validity of our views.

We don't agree on this issue, but the debate hopefully clarifies our own personal views, and maybe leads to more intelligent and informed opinions.

My Judge friend swears that those stats are close to the truth, if not actually the gospel truth. Beyond that, I just don't know.

I hope that you enjoyed a wonderful Thanks Giving, like we did. :yes:

I am sure that we will have further opportunities to try and "convince" each other of our respective views (even tho we all know that I am always RIGHT) :lol:

Paula - 11-24-2006 at 09:43 PM

:lol:

now just a minute here....
IF (big if) those stats are true, they are inflamatory but meaningless. A warrant doesn't mean that the person has committed the crime, but only that he is a suspect. And it is possible that racism on the part of victims or witnesses can cause Latinos to be suspects of crimes committed by other people-- sometimes by people who are not Hispanic. And-- please don't take this personally-- sometimes the law is more aggressive in pursuing people lower on the economic scale, i. e. immigrants. So a person looking for evidence that illegal immigrants are killing our babies and stealing our cars reads this and extapolates that 95% of illegal immigrants are murderers. Faulty logic that adds fuel to a fire that ought not to be burning.
We did have a nice Thanksgiving, and I'm happy to hear that you did too.

You might always be right Barry, but I'll always get the last word in

[Edited on 11-25-2006 by Paula]

Burn Baby Burn

MrBillM - 11-25-2006 at 10:57 AM

I have to disagree that this is an issue that "should not be burning". Au Contraire ! This IS a Burning Issue and it is important to keep those fires burning in order to force our political wimps to do the right thing, much to their dismay.

Unfortunately, the current feeling is that NOTHING significant will be done in the next two years beyond what has already been voted on because both the Republicans and Democrats will be focusing on the Big Prize in 2008 and don't want to address anything controversial that might impact any voter segment. While that is good news on most issues, on illegal immigration it simply means that the problem will worsen and the numbers will increase.

"Fuel the Fire and Fan the Flames".

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