BajaNomad - Developments in Sonora

Developments in Sonora

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 10:18 AM

Thought some of you might be interested in some of the goings on in Baja's sister state Sonora. I spotted this on a San Carlos board. I think most of it comes from info in the local Mexican news papers.

"Sonora Developments

Many people are always asking me, "Whats new in San Carlos, Guaymas, Hermosillo & Rocky Point?" So I thought I would post some of the new developments that are going on or are being planned for the State of Sonora. It's kind of unbeliveable what all is happening, Starting from North to South.

NOGALES, SONORA
Just recently opened: WalMart, Alpplebees, Fiesta Hotel, and Nogales Mall (a shopping mall with 110 locals). They just finished a new elevated road and overpass in Downwtown Nogales, to help relieve the traffic problem at the border.

LUKEVILLE/SONOYTA
Planned - A additional Port of Entry, just east of the current one, with a new four lane highway direct to the new Puerto Peñasco World Class International Airport, and then continuing on to the Mayan Palace Development. The new Gate, new Highway and the new International Airport all funded by the Mayan Palace.

PUERTO PEÑASCO ( ROCKY POINT)
The new Costal Highway from Golfo de Santa Clara to Puerto Peñasco is about 85% finished. Besides the 45 highrise condos that have been built on Sandy Beach there is another 65 highrises planed for around Puerto Peñasco, these are either in construction or in planning stage, to be built in the next 2 years. They range from 12 stories to 23 stories. In the last two weeks they announced two new developments, one for $1,200,000,000.00, this with two internationaly known hotels, condos, houses, etc., three days later they announced another for $3,000,000,000.00, this one with investors from Saudi Arabia, Spain, Italy, United States & Mexico. All but three of the trailer parks have been sold for future condos, the other three are on borrowed time. In addition to these and many others, WalMart, McDonalds, Applebees, and Burger King have all gotten locations to build on. The new International Airport is going to be built and ready for next winter. American Airlines has asked for the routes from Los Angeles to Puerto Peñasco, and Chicago to Puerto Peñasco. And there are rumors of other airlines.

SOUTH OF SANTA TOMAS
There has been an announcement of a new multa millon dollar development for there.

PUERTO LIBERTAD
In 2007 they will start the second phase of the Costal Highway, from Desemboque to Puerto Libertad. There is a very large development, Liberty Cove, Billons $, planned for just north of Libertad.

Thats all for now. Second chapter to follow."

bancoduo - 12-17-2006 at 01:18 PM

Now that you told us the bad news, how about the good news

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 01:44 PM

Wait until you hear about the developments in Hermosillo, Guaymas, and San Carlos.

The governor of Sonora is very aggressive in promoting tourism and industry. I don't know when the last time you were in Hermosillo, but this very large city has more middle class Mexicans than any other place I've seen in Mexico. So, I don't necessarily agree that development is a bad thing for Mexico or us. If you want to hold the Mexican people back from bettering their lives that's your problem.

It amazes me how anti-development so many people are on this board, beating the other voices down. You want the place to remain just as it was when "you" found it. Give me a break.

longlegsinlapaz - 12-17-2006 at 01:53 PM

I think it's great when Mexico can develop for Mexicanos to improve their way of life. :bounce:

I just hate to see Appelbee's, WalMart, Burger King & McDonald's cluttering up the landscape & culture!

Changes

MrBillM - 12-17-2006 at 02:00 PM

Just as Willie Sutton robbed banks because "That's Where the Money is", Mexico's development is keyed to the U.S. tourist and expatriate because they're next door with the money.

That's Life.

JZ------

Barry A. - 12-17-2006 at 03:09 PM

I think many of us are not actually "anti-development" for Mexico and it's people, we are just sad that "the Mexico" that we knew and loved is rapidly becoming "no more", and in fact is becoming less interesting for many of us------"development" is NOT why we went there.

Just my opinion, of course.

well said, barry

woody with a view - 12-17-2006 at 03:14 PM

capt. mike - 12-17-2006 at 04:09 PM

JZ - you are spot on, the Mexicans will decide their own future and if it includes taking advantage of norte americano dollares - well, that's free enterprize and marketing!

i found a couple of neat projects under way in kino Bay that have my eye! great prices and on the water, well planned and layed out.
Glad to see the Mexicans doing quality projects. These have 30% down owner financing with Mexican principals at great rates. Should be steady sales and build outs.

Minnow - 12-17-2006 at 04:27 PM

For those that don't know Sonora is very nice. If you ever want to visit a city in Mx with a strong middle class try Hermosillo. IMHO the people in Sonora are friendlier than those in Baja. Everyone you meet wants to give you a big hug and something to eat. Mike, Keno bay rocks, and I will be there in one week. Want me to stake out your lot for you?

DianaT - 12-17-2006 at 04:27 PM

I agree that development is not always negative if it helps the locals economically and if the locals want it.

Even here in the US, in Imperial Beach, there is a constant battle between the leave it alone group and the let's go high rise group. Frankly, if the let's go high rise group won, the value of our properties would skyrocket, but we land between the leave it alone and high rise group.

If what has developed at Rocky Point is good for the locals, so be it. I know that many, many years ago it was a quaint little fishing village where my husband camped with his grandfather. A few years ago, we decided to see what had happened---we knew there had been lots of change.

Well, it was the weekend---first thing we discovered was that the road to "Arizonia's Beach" did not look like a two lane Mexican highway. Then when we arrived at Rocky Poing, we thought it was crowded, tacky, and awful. The final thing was when the lady at the outside taco restaurant did not want to accept pesos---she wanted dollars. We turned around and drove all the way back to our home in Calexico.

Then again, lots of people LOVE Rocky Point, and developments will continue to grow in a way that makes gringos comfortable.

Diane

Developments in Sonora

k1w1 - 12-17-2006 at 06:11 PM

excellent news. Thanx for the report!

bancoduo - 12-17-2006 at 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k1w1
excellent news. Thanx for the report!

More time shares for you to sell BOZO.:moon:

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 07:22 PM

"Sonora Developments - Part 2

HERMOSILLO
I don't know where to start on this one as there is so much going on.
New main road into Hermosillo, from the North to be built. Just south of the Toll Booth, about where the monument of the Yaqui Deer Dancer is, Km 10, there will be a major cloverleaf overpass built with a new 4 lane road to the right that will go on to connect with Blvd. Morelos, which will turn into an 8 lane blvd. This is the main road that comes out to the road throught town by McDonalds and the Chevy Dealer. This will be a faster way into Hermosillo. Taking the new clover leaf to the east, you will go on a new 4 lane highway (Libramiento Hermosillo) that will by pass all of Hermosillo, passing on the east side of the lake and comming out at Km 240 south of Hermosillo. They say this will save 45 mins of time. Also they will be making the highway to San Pedro a 4 lane highway, and the highway to Sahuaripa a 4 lane. In the same area of the cloverleaf north of Hermosillo, they plan on Building a new La Salle University, Convention Center, 2 Hotels, Golf Course, and futher in on Blvd. Morelos a 32 story Airbus Office Bld. Also in the north part of Hermosillo, on Blvd. Morelos or close by, in the future they are going to build a new WalMart, Sams Club, Costco, and a new Plaza Power Mall with Office Max. On the Periferico Poniente, they have just opened the new Shopping Mall, Plaza Sendero, with a new Coppel, Soriana, Woolworth, Radio Shack, Burger King, Office Max, Movie Theaters, etc., with 130 locals in total. In downtown they just opened Plaza Cine Sonora with 24 locals. Towards the Center/South end of town in the area of the river by Walmart, Sams Club. and Home Depot, they are going to due major developing. Paseo Del Rio road that runs on both sides of the river will be put all the way through to the Periferico Poniente, comming out by the dam with an interchange there. In the area of Home Depot, they are going to build a new Soriana, Ashley Furniture Store, Famsa, and Hospital Angeles. Along the river road they are going to build 6 hotels, Camino Real, Lucerna, City Express, One Hotel, Micotel, Holiday Inn Express, a 10 story Condo, a Convention Center and a Culture Center consisting of a Museum of Contemporary Art, Music House, and Assemble and Visitor Center. Also another Applebees, and another Carl Jr's. They also will be building along the river road three shopping malls. Fashion Mall, Pabellon Reforma with 80 locals, Maga Plaza Gallerias with 160 locals, Sears, Sanborns, Liverpool and possibly Pennys. Also in Hermosillo Big Cola will be building their major bottling plant. I've probably left out something, but I don't know what.

GUAYMAS
They are contuining to work on the Guaymas Marina, now filling in the area where they will build the stores, hotel and parks, restoring the old buildings, along with the Mercado Municipal and soon they will make Serdan, in front of the Marina, into a divided blvd.
In February the President of the Cruse Line Holland America is comming to Guaymas to see about their cruse ships comming to Guaymas. The are going now to Topolambampo, with about 250 of the passengers getting off and taking a train trip to the Copper Canyon. While they are waiting for them to return they want to take the remaining 1,000 passengers to other areas, Loreto and Guaymas/San Carlos, and then return to Topolabampo for the Copper Canyon Pessengers. They are making a new 4 lane road into Guaymas, from Miramar, giving another route into Guaymas. Also they are going to 4 lane the road to the Airport and San Jose. They will be making a new Cinepolis Movie Theater in 2007, and WalMart is still pending for construction. In the second half of 2007 we will be getting a new local bus service with modern buses.

SAN CARLOS
Many new Condos comming and new housing projects. And of course they just opened the Delfinario.
Also on the plans for 2007 is the starting up of the Tourist Train services from Nogales to Guaymas and back. This will be a great addition.

EMPALME
They have sold most of the land from the road to Cochorit Beach, to the end of the Beach at Playa del Sol. This was the second peice that has been sold to this group. The sale was for 4,400 hectares. It was purchased by a group of investors from Chihuahua. This land runs almost all the way to the new check point at Km 98. They are currently looking at more land in the area. That is a great Beach.
They plan to build Hotels, Condos, Resturants, Stores and Housing for North Americans.

I'm sure I've left somthing out on these postings."

You should see what's happening in Kino

Sonora Wind - 12-17-2006 at 08:06 PM

When I first arrived in 1984 you could buy a beach lot for $9000.00. Now you can buy a lot in the rocks on a hill with a distant view of the water for $125,000.00. Glad I arrived in 84. :cool:

Gota love Sonora!!

hmmmmmm.....

Baja Bucko - 12-17-2006 at 08:13 PM

Let's see...why have I been going to Mexico for over 35 yrs? To go to Walmart and eat at Applebees???? Was all over Sonora in 1980 and Hermosillo sounds like it just ain't the same. Just what we all need- wall-to-wall high-rises from Rocky Point to Kino Bay.....

bajarich - 12-17-2006 at 08:17 PM

Camped on the beach at Kino Bay on our first trip to Mexico in 1990. We returned there in 1996 and the beach where we camped was all houses. Haven't been back since. It's not that I'm against development, it's just that I'm not going to drive 1,000 miles to see a bunch of tacky stucco homes. Thats why I go to Baja. It's being developed too, but I don't go to those places either.

The real boon for Mexico is when they start collecting property taxes on all those houses, and income taxes from all the Gringos that rent them out on the internet. They need to learn from Utah about how to tax everything the tourists do. That's economic development!

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bucko
hmmmmmm.....
Let's see...why have I been going to Mexico for over 35 yrs? To go to Walmart and eat at Applebees???? Was all over Sonora in 1980 and Hermosillo sounds like it just ain't the same. Just what we all need- wall-to-wall high-rises from Rocky Point to Kino Bay.....

Hmmmmm... I guess you would like the Mexicans to remain in poverty so you can travel to another country absent of commerce. Seems to me you are a very selfish person based on those statements.

[Edited on 12-18-2006 by JZ]

Stickers - 12-17-2006 at 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
"Sonora Developments - Part 2

HERMOSILLO
I don't know where to start on this one as there is so much going on.
New main road into Hermosillo, from the North to be built. Just south of the Toll Booth, about where the monument of the Yaqui Deer Dancer is, Km 10, there will be a major cloverleaf overpass built with a new 4 lane road to the right that will go on to connect with Blvd. Morelos, which will turn into an 8 lane blvd. This is the main road that comes out to the road throught town by McDonalds and the Chevy Dealer. This will be a faster way into Hermosillo. Taking the new clover leaf to the east, you will go on a new 4 lane highway (Libramiento Hermosillo) that will by pass all of Hermosillo, passing on the east side of the lake and comming out at Km 240 south of Hermosillo. They say this will save 45 mins of time. Also they will be making the highway to San Pedro a 4 lane highway, and the highway to Sahuaripa a 4 lane. In the same area of the cloverleaf north of Hermosillo, they plan on Building a new La Salle University, Convention Center, 2 Hotels, Golf Course, and futher in on Blvd. Morelos a 32 story Airbus Office Bld. Also in the north part of Hermosillo, on Blvd. Morelos or close by, in the future they are going to build a new WalMart, Sams Club, Costco, and a new Plaza Power Mall with Office Max. On the Periferico Poniente, they have just opened the new Shopping Mall, Plaza Sendero, with a new Coppel, Soriana, Woolworth, Radio Shack, Burger King, Office Max, Movie Theaters, etc., with 130 locals in total. In downtown they just opened Plaza Cine Sonora with 24 locals. Towards the Center/South end of town in the area of the river by Walmart, Sams Club. and Home Depot, they are going to due major developing. Paseo Del Rio road that runs on both sides of the river will be put all the way through to the Periferico Poniente, comming out by the dam with an interchange there. In the area of Home Depot, they are going to build a new Soriana, Ashley Furniture Store, Famsa, and Hospital Angeles. Along the river road they are going to build 6 hotels, Camino Real, Lucerna, City Express, One Hotel, Micotel, Holiday Inn Express, a 10 story Condo, a Convention Center and a Culture Center consisting of a Museum of Contemporary Art, Music House, and Assemble and Visitor Center. Also another Applebees, and another Carl Jr's. They also will be building along the river road three shopping malls. Fashion Mall, Pabellon Reforma with 80 locals, Maga Plaza Gallerias with 160 locals, Sears, Sanborns, Liverpool and possibly Pennys. Also in Hermosillo Big Cola will be building their major bottling plant. I've probably left out something, but I don't know what.

GUAYMAS
They are contuining to work on the Guaymas Marina, now filling in the area where they will build the stores, hotel and parks, restoring the old buildings, along with the Mercado Municipal and soon they will make Serdan, in front of the Marina, into a divided blvd.
In February the President of the Cruse Line Holland America is comming to Guaymas to see about their cruse ships comming to Guaymas. The are going now to Topolambampo, with about 250 of the passengers getting off and taking a train trip to the Copper Canyon. While they are waiting for them to return they want to take the remaining 1,000 passengers to other areas, Loreto and Guaymas/San Carlos, and then return to Topolabampo for the Copper Canyon Pessengers. They are making a new 4 lane road into Guaymas, from Miramar, giving another route into Guaymas. Also they are going to 4 lane the road to the Airport and San Jose. They will be making a new Cinepolis Movie Theater in 2007, and WalMart is still pending for construction. In the second half of 2007 we will be getting a new local bus service with modern buses.

SAN CARLOS
Many new Condos comming and new housing projects. And of course they just opened the Delfinario.
Also on the plans for 2007 is the starting up of the Tourist Train services from Nogales to Guaymas and back. This will be a great addition.

EMPALME
They have sold most of the land from the road to Cochorit Beach, to the end of the Beach at Playa del Sol. This was the second peice that has been sold to this group. The sale was for 4,400 hectares. It was purchased by a group of investors from Chihuahua. This land runs almost all the way to the new check point at Km 98. They are currently looking at more land in the area. That is a great Beach.
They plan to build Hotels, Condos, Resturants, Stores and Housing for North Americans.

I'm sure I've left somthing out on these postings."

I sure hope they are also building a sewage disposal facility.

.

Paula - 12-17-2006 at 09:38 PM

Who in the United States has really been helped by the development of big box stores and chain restaurants? The minimum wage worker who is often given a 32 hour per week schedule after being promised a full time job so that the company can avoid paying benefits such as retirement and health insurance? The consumer who can waste more of his money on what he never needed to begin with? Small bussiness owners who can't compete with corporate power? The young couple out for Saturday night eating oversalted overprocessed food that all tastes the same whether you get it at Appleby's, Chili's, Sizzler, or IHOP? The small restaurant owner who wants to serve a good and interesting meal at a fair price?
I'm not against growth that truly benefits the people of Mexico or any other country. But it would all be so much better if cultural identity were maintained, and there were new experiences when we travel rather than the same least-common-denominator stuff world wide. How does Mexico really benefit when the tourists and ex-pats come and spend their dollars to have them sent back to corporate America? And why leave your hometown to eat at Appleby's or Carl Jr"s?

tehehe

k1w1 - 12-17-2006 at 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bancoduo

Quote:

Originally posted by k1w1
excellent news. Thanx for the report!

More time shares for you to sell BOZO.:moon:

try again el chumpo (that's mexi for 'chump') but I gots a bridge I could sell ya!

More BAJA related reports added I notice. Excellent again! (sure as hell beats reading about ... marines holding hands / which weapons are flavor of the month / how to cook that elk you've taken with your crossbow (yyyeeeaaa sign of a real man HA!) / and the ever elusive baja Morro Bay ... on a site implying info re BAJA California.

Keep 'em coming (good & bad but on topic), much appreciated. Paz.

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
How does Mexico really benefit when the tourists and ex-pats come and spend their dollars to have them sent back to corporate America? And why leave your hometown to eat at Appleby's or Carl Jr"s?

They aren't building those for gringos. I can assure you of that. All those are being built in Hermosillo. There aren't many gringos there. Mexicans benefit from generally better selection and prices at Home Depot and Costco.

Paula - 12-17-2006 at 10:10 PM

My point is that if Mexico must emulate the worst of America business and culture, perhaps they would be better off doing it through Soriana or Gigante, and whatever else they could develop to fill their own needs. Why should Mexicans contribute to US corporate profits?

JZ - 12-17-2006 at 10:44 PM

No, you have modified your point, because you realized it was flawed. Your new point is equally flawed.

Mango - 12-18-2006 at 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ

Quote:

I'm sure it's been posted here before.. but here is a nice little story about "improvements"

-=-=-=-=-=-

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, "only a little while."

The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs.

The American then asked, "but what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15 - 20 years."

"But what then?" Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!"

"Millions - then what?"

The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."

-=-=-=-=-

I'm all for Mexicans improving their lives and communities. I have allways have a mixed reaction about "progress". Mexico has had plenty of commerce for eons. The markets of Teotihuacan were vast and famous. However; I'd rather travel to a foreign country to do business with foreign businesses.

If I wanted to eat at McDonalds and stay in an overpirced Hilton.. I'd just go down the street. We even have tacos here too, at Taco Bell, and I hear people get sick there just like in Mexico! However; I'll be the first one to admit I often eat at a modern Vips or Sanborns when in Mexico City. (I love Vips)

The reality is. The world is dynamic and changes. Mexico has never been the same since the first fish crawled out of the water. Later the Toltecs, Aztecs, and later Cortez and then the French imposed their changes. International businesses are the modern day "Cortez" in Mexico. They bring change, new ways, new ideas and often spell death to the old ways.

Modernification is not inherently bad. I just love Mexican culture and history; and, would rather see them keep an identity of their own and support their own businesses.

I don't see why you would be confused why people would be upset about changes and development. It is just natural. The older someone is, the more they want the world to stay the same. The younger someone is, the more they are open to new ideas. It's just a hunch; but, I'd suspect we have many older people on this board.

I'd also suspect one of the main reasons most people goto Baja to enjoy the natural beauty and solitude. I have few old secret campgrounds here in Alta California under foundations of new "modern" hotels, etc.. I can't afford to stay there now, nor would I want to.

I thank you for your posts. They are very informative and well worded. I know progress often has good intentions and results; however, for me and others it is sad to see the old days and old ways slowly disapear forever. It's like losing an old friend.

Cheers, have a great tomorrow, and maybe I'll see you at Vips someday. :lol:

capt. mike - 12-18-2006 at 05:49 AM

the one thing no one except a few business minded folks understand here is.............
Ta Da!!...........drumroll please.........ONE WORLD, ONE ECONOMY!!

Get used to it. It's here to stay. This ain't the 1800s anymore. The revolution in communications and travel has manefested itself in the power of convenient trade. Mexico and USA will forever be strong trading partners and our common likes will merge, We like beach front...........they like Applebees and Walmart. good for us both.

And if you like solace.....it's easy to find places undeveloped. go and enjoy those too.

Interesting factoid:
everyone living on the planet right now, if the were on a 4000 SF lot and small tract home, 4 to a home, all would fit in the geographical area of Texas.

there's a lot of extra space in the mundo!

Minnow - tell me more of your plans to be in Kino. I'd like to come down.

Minnow - 12-18-2006 at 07:50 AM

The liberal perspective. Anti business, anti government, anti development. Yet at the same time, the government is supposed to provide all the entitlements the underprivledged demand. Give me a flippin break. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Wise up.

Mike, leaving friday, returning the 3rd.

Cypress - 12-18-2006 at 07:55 AM

Investors are already lining-up to pour $$$ into Cuba with the hopes that, after Castro, Cuba will be open for development.

Might draw some of the high dollar investors away from other potential resort-type areas.

HotSchott - 12-18-2006 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
No, you have modified your point, because you realized it was flawed. Your new point is equally flawed.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who is always right...kinda like "when I want your opinion I will give you one"...truly beautiful dude!

Anyway, I can't wait until there is enough development in Mexico to allow Mexicans to see the value in staying home. Nothing would make me happier than to see the Mexican people develop and sustain a first world economy that could feed, employ and house its population inside its own borders. It will be a great thing for the future of Mexico and it will start with economic growth and development. Maybe someday hoards of illiterate and unskilled Americans will be looking for work on the corners of every Home Depot in Mexico. It would be amazing to see Middle class Mexicans driving nice cars and living in beautiful homes in well kept neighborhoods on both coasts of the Sea of Cortez.

Given the difficulties involved with land ownership, immigration, employment and importation of goods into Mexico for Non-Mexicans, I would find it very difficult to believe that large American Corporations will be ripping off the Mexican Government and sending ALL their profits back home. You have to be pretty naive to think any of the millions of dollars needed to set up shop and make these ventures work will not be a huge long-term benefit to the infrastructure of Mexico. There will be lots of Mexicans benefitting from this stuff before any of it gets off the ground. It aint small town, but what is? They can't all be bamboo farmers and fisherman and the Peace Corps and Missionaries can't be our only legacy.

$$

Minnow - 12-18-2006 at 08:26 AM

Jorge, We went last year and had a great time. The game went 14 innings and the final score was like 17 to 18.

Ever Changing

MrBillM - 12-18-2006 at 10:26 AM

There is a significant irony in hearing from people who are late-comers themselves complain about change albeit those changes are coming a quicker pace. Most of us hope that the moment we arrived would be frozen in time, but those who arrived twenty years earlier hoped for the same thing.

I once had an old friend and fanatic fisherman who had been going to his spot in San Carlos for six months out of every year. When he finally sold out in the late 80s (early 90s ?) after some 20 years and bought an isolated place in British Columbia, I asked him why he was leaving. His reply was "That there are so damned many Gringos, I think you need a Visa to get in if you're Mexican".

I'll bet today that some or most of those late-arriving Gringos that drove him away are bemoaning the current changes.

[Edited on 12-18-2006 by MrBillM]

Hotshott------and MrBill------

Barry A. - 12-18-2006 at 10:40 AM

----both excellent posts, and right on target, I believe, as are others here.

Bravo!!

wilderone - 12-18-2006 at 02:53 PM

"Nothing would make me happier than to see the Mexican people develop and sustain a first world economy that could feed, employ and house its population inside its own borders."
Might be difficult on that restaurant or sales job salary. Minimum wage in Mexico? Don't think so.
A case in point is the Yucatan Peninsula. No need to speculate on what-ifs - you can see the result. The hard fact is that the genuineness of the Yucatan peninsula is gone and in its place, 65 mph 4-lane highway, an appalling, shocking, very disturbing amount of plastic, glass and wood debris on the beaches for miles and miles and miles, Sams Club, Office Depot. The development projects bring in more people (not necessarily the ones who live there) who must find an affordable place to live, which are not being built - only megaresorts are being built. The traditional thatched roof huts are STILL what they build and live in. 40 years later, and the people who lived in pre-Cancun still build thatched roof huts for themselves. Some of the shanty neighborhoods on the outskirts of Playa del Carmen is testament to the post-Cancun development success or lack thereof. It doesn't necessarily follow that development brings prosperity to those living there. And in the process, the irony of it all, is that what was the draw is being destroyed - the beaches are filthy with litter, the coral reef bays are 95% destroyed, beach access is extremely limited due to the private property. This is not progress - it is doom rushing headlong into the future and you cannot go back. Yet, new development in Mexico is emulated by the short-sighted and ignorant who are impressed with the norteamericano way - itself disasterous (WalMart employees on welfare, Enron-sized businesses going belly-up, etc.) - while they could handle development in a way that would sustain itself and preserve the very qualities that create the attraction in the first place. But they do not.
I had a great time camping in the Yucatan peninsula because I drove 200 miles away from the development and mingled with the local people on their own properties - thatched roof huts with turkeys and baby pigs roaming around; sharing a $1.50 pineapple and warming by a wood fire in the jungle. It was difficult to sit on a littered beach or snorkle in a pool that should have had fish, but have long gone and not feel some despair. This is the consequence of development for development's sake. Same thing happening in Loreto now. And it's sad.

Packoderm - 12-18-2006 at 03:09 PM

The plastic garbage on the beaches of the Quintana Roo coast did not come from Mexico. If you pick some of it up and look, you'll see it is just about all U.S. products. The rumor is that huge garbage barges dump garbage from Florida and other Southern states into the Atlantic, and some of it washes to the beaches south.

As far as the need for every coastal community, U.S. as well as Mexico, to emulate the development as experienced by Los Angeles, it seems that we humans are alike to salmon swimming upstream to spawn and face an inevitable death. We might not want to do it, but we just can't help ourselves.

JZ - 12-18-2006 at 03:19 PM

Reading between the lines what I'm hearing from you two is that Americans and the American way of life is horrible. Wow. Maybe it's time for you to move to Europe, Canada, or the Far East. Have at it.

wilderone - 12-18-2006 at 03:25 PM

"Reading between the lines what I'm hearing from you two is that Americans and the American way of life is horrible. Wow. Maybe it's time for you to move to Europe, Canada, or the Far East. Have at it."

You have a reading comprehension problem.

Cypress - 12-18-2006 at 03:26 PM

Garbage barges from southern states??

Those dumb southern rednecks just don't care where they dump their garbage.

Come on!

Jeez! They probably eat grits also, can't spell polenta. :yes:

Packoderm - 12-18-2006 at 03:30 PM

When my grandmother lived in Los Angeles in the 1940s to 1950s, the American lifestyle there was just fine for her. However, it changed; she couldn't take it anymore, so she had to move out. Now the same thing is happening to us here in No. Calif. It has become unsafe for our children to attend public High Schools here. I love America and the American lifestyle. I just hate to see it go to crap. I like what Portland Or. has been doing better.

JZ - 12-18-2006 at 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"Reading between the lines what I'm hearing from you two is that Americans and the American way of life is horrible. Wow. Maybe it's time for you to move to Europe, Canada, or the Far East. Have at it."

You have a reading comprehension problem.

Don't think so... especially from the the PacMan.

[Edited on 12-18-2006 by JZ]

wilderone - 12-18-2006 at 03:33 PM

I had plenty of opportunity to see the beach trash. It is bottles of suntan lotion, about 1,000,000 plastic water, soda and juice bottles, hundreds of plastic sandals and other shoes, beer and liquor bottles, plastic oil containers, plastic beach chairs, blue tarps, probably a ton of polyurethane rope, fishing line, all kinds of wood debris, plastic bags of all kinds, travel sized shampoo, etc. In my opinion, it is the trash of the tourists and local Mexicans - a direct result of development. And there is no plan to clean it up. An ecological disaster.

JZ - 12-18-2006 at 03:36 PM

Sounds f'd up. But don't assume all dev will be that incompetent.

bancoduo - 12-18-2006 at 03:53 PM

The barges come from NY&NJ on there way to Haiti. they are not covered and crap blows off it and ends up on some beach where it mixes with mexican beach crap. The highest mountain in FL is south of Miami, its a mountain made of trash. You can see it miles away. looks like a Disney version of Mt hood.

The new national bird of Mexico should be all the plastic bags flying around. GO WALMART!

Cypress - 12-18-2006 at 03:56 PM

Any trash from the southern states of the USA is more than likely the backwash from hurricane Katrina. :no:

bancoduo - 12-18-2006 at 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
Sounds f'd up. But don't assume all dev will be that incompetent.

Call back when you are feeling better. :lol:

Barry A. - 12-18-2006 at 04:13 PM

Personally I believe that all these problems result from population explosion, and migration to the "promise land" that these resort areas represent to some, and the kind of folks that are attracted to them.

7 years ago we spent 3 weeks driving around the Yucatan and we sure did not see all these problems detailed-----we stayed in old Cancun, Tulum, Vallidolid, and many of the small villages thruout Quintana Roo, Campeche, and the Merida area. We thought the whole place was delightful, and pretty darn prosperous, especially as compared to Belize. Belize was a disaster in the making. Spent a month in Belize, but will never go back. We did not see/go to any of the touristy places, tho. Belize City was the worse place I ever stayed, ANYWHERE!! I gave a huge sigh of relief when we bussed into Mexico from Belize-----one of our favorite places was Chetumal----a delightful city. I would revisit the Yucatan in a heartbeat. Cancun peninsula was pretty tacky to us, and we simply drove thru, and then on into Old Cancun which we loved. Merida and Campeche were wonderful. All appeared prosperous to us.

bajalou - 12-18-2006 at 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
I had plenty of opportunity to see the beach trash. It is bottles of suntan lotion, about 1,000,000 plastic water, soda and juice bottles, hundreds of plastic sandals and other shoes, beer and liquor bottles, plastic oil containers, plastic beach chairs, blue tarps, probably a ton of polyurethane rope, fishing line, all kinds of wood debris, plastic bags of all kinds, travel sized shampoo, etc. In my opinion, it is the trash of the tourists and local Mexicans - a direct result of development. And there is no plan to clean it up. An ecological disaster.

Sounds like what you find at Malarimo beach on the Viscaino Peninsula.

HotSchott - 12-18-2006 at 06:12 PM

I refuse to get caught up in a political debate about whose fault garbage is, but blaming development is like getting angry at the tide coming in. Why is it that some people are so passionate in their descriptions of the societal ills like pollution and poverty? If you feel so passionate about how screwed up it is, take a roll of garbage bags on your next road trip and spend some time cleaning your least favorite stretch of beach. Contribute your money to programs that teach people to recycle. Pollution is what happens when people don't have values that include clean public spaces. Why not volunteer your time to engage locals to clean their beaches? Blaming development for pollution will not stop development and won't remove pollution. If the only industry supporting an economy is tourism which results in irresponsible development, uncontrolled pollution and abject poverty, you can be sure the attraction will fade and the tourism will go elsewhere - so it is not sustainable. The only constant is change. The evolution of paradise in the modern world is to become something else. If this bothers you, let your actions be as obvious as your words and be the difference instead of simply reporting the scope and magnitude of the problem. Global whining is making people deaf. Post some pictures of the beach or creek that you just cleaned, the house you just built for an impoverished family, the medical clinic where you volunteer your time. Sitting there at your keyboard bashing development in Mexico and describing the places you won't go back to just tells me that you aren't capable of understanding what is really wrong or aren't willing to involve yourself in the solution.

On a final note, making ends meet on a restaurant salary probably doesn't appeal to a lot of people including my Mother-in-law who raised five kids waiting tables. If your perspective includes making ends meet by being a prostitute then the restaurant job might start to look a little better. Of course, maybe we should all support growth which only allows Mexicans to earn a $2.80 a day making pinatas and subsistence farming to feed their families.

$$

bancoduo - 12-18-2006 at 06:44 PM

Contribute my money to fix the problem. I never heard of that before. Where do I send my tax deductible check. :lol:

Packoderm - 12-18-2006 at 06:51 PM

I don't think you guys understand the scope of garbage flotsom on the beaches south of Tulum. I've seen it about 6 years ago while stopping on the way to Punta Allen. There was enough garbage such as plastic quart Penzoil bottles to fill a bunch of dump trucks all on just one small stretch of beach (less than 100 yards) that would have otherwise been pristine. I should have taken pictures of it. It was simply breathtaking. There are no tourists or tourist facilities there, and camping is not allowed. Probably the only ones really being hurt by this are the sea turtles. There are not enough garbage bags at a dozen home depot stores that would take care of what I saw. But I have joined in on what HotSchott suggests at several beaches and rivers. If you guys want to see some real amounts of garbage, just look at a couple abandoned homeless camps at my grampa's old property and along the Sacramento and American rivers. Dump trucks upon dump trucks.

Minnow - 12-18-2006 at 07:52 PM

Some good posts here. Once again, the anti development crowd is trying to duck the question.

"The gulf stream runs south to north. It is impossible for trash from New Jersy to end up in the yucatan inless it traveled to africa first.

Packoderm - 12-18-2006 at 08:33 PM

Not New Jersey - from Florida. Well that's what I heard anyway. But I have heard that the beaches around the New Jersey/New York area were really nice at one time, but the garbage barges from New York fouled them with a black sludge. It is supposed to be getting better since they eased up on the practice.

capt. mike - 12-19-2006 at 04:39 AM

mexicans are the worst at blatent littering. the americans generally clean up as i've witnessed. they seem to care more, its been ingrained into us since the ad campaigns started in the 60s when we were growing up.

woodsy owl....give a hoot, don't pollute etc.

hey you environmental wackjobs out there, quit blaming gringos for all the litter.

glad to hear from the anti development crowd as now and then i enjoy a good whine with my cheeze crisps!

tripledigitken - 12-19-2006 at 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
mexicans are the worst at blatent littering. the americans generally clean up as i've witnessed. they seem to care more, its been ingrained into us since the ad campaigns started in the 60s when we were growing up.

woodsy owl....give a hoot, don't pollute etc.

hey you environmental wackjobs out there, quit blaming gringos for all the litter.

glad to hear from the anti development crowd as now and then i enjoy a good whine with my cheeze crisps!

Hey Mike, chill out and have a beer with some chips instead! And a chaser of Patron of course!

Don Alley - 12-19-2006 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bancoduo
Contribute my money to fix the problem. I never heard of that before. Where do I send my tax deductible check. :lol:

Banco, just make that check out to The Loreto Bay Company and you can help make Loreto a better place with a higher standard of living for EVERYONE through the magic of Sustainable Development! But sorry, no tax deduction unless the whole project goes belly up.
:lol:

wilderone - 12-19-2006 at 09:24 AM

"spend some time cleaning your least favorite stretch of beach. Contribute your money to programs that teach people to recycle. Pollution is what happens when people don't have values that include clean public spaces. Why not volunteer your time to engage locals to clean their beaches? Blaming development for pollution will not stop development and won't remove pollution. "

I DO ALL OF THAT ON A REGULAR BASIS AND HAVE FOR YEARS AND THEN SOME - YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. WHY DON'T THEY CLEAN THEIR BEACHES? WHY DON'T THEY SEE THE BIG PICTURE? WHERE IS THEIR GOVERNMENT? WHERE IS THEIR MUNICIPAL PLANNING? IF "DEVELOPMENT" HAD A CLEAN-UP OR POLLUTION REMOVAL COMPONENT TO IT, IT WOULD REMOVE POLLUTION. PACKODERM HAS TRIED TO EXLAIN - IT WOULD TAKE AN ENTIRE ARMY - NO KIDDING - A YEAR AT LEAST - TO REMOVE ALL THAT TRASH. I DON'T CARE WHERE IT COMES FROM - THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT - NOT ME - MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT IS ON THEIR SHORES ON THEIR BEACHES. MY LAME ATTEMPT TO GATHER 10 FOOT CIRCUMFERENCE OF TRASH IN A PILE SO I COULD SIT AND NOT LOOK DIRECTLY AT IT WHILE I WAS THERE, MADE NO IMPACT WHATSOVER. I'M TALKING ABOUT 50 MILES OF TRASH.

bancoduo - 12-19-2006 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
Some good posts here. Once again, the anti development crowd is trying to duck the question.

"The gulf stream runs south to north. It is impossible for trash from New Jersy to end up in the yucatan inless it traveled to africa first.

Read what I said. The barges are going to HAITI, which is below the gulfstream and due east of Yucatan.

wilderone - 12-19-2006 at 09:35 AM

"Post some pictures of the beach or creek that you just cleaned, the house you just built for an impoverished family, the medical clinic where you volunteer your time."
IF I KNEW HOW TO POST PICTURES I WOULD. IF I WASN'T AT WORK USING THEIR COMPUTER I WOULD. I HAVE THE PHOTOS OF THE RIVER THAT I DUG A TON OF TAMARASK; I HAVE THE PHOTOS OF THE ALPINE LAKE WHERE I PLANTED 100'S OF NEW PLANTS; I HAVE THE PHOTOS OF THE TRAILS THAT I BUILT, ROCKED, BERMED; HAVE THE PHOTOS OF THE CLASSROOM I HELPED BUILD FOR THE ZAPATISTAS; DON'T HAVE THE PHOTOS OF THE BOOKS I'VE DONATED TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD THEY SHOULD PROTECT; DON'T HAVE PHOTOS OF THE MONEY I HAVE DONATED TO THE TARAHUMARA CLINIC, THE SCHOOL BUILDING PROJECT IN CHIAPAS; DON'T HAVE PHOTOS OF THE 200 PACKETS OF VEGETABLE SEEDS, CRAYONS, PAPER, SEWING KITS I'VE DISTRIBUTED IN INDIGENOUS AREAS.
I DO MY PART. AND BRINGING THE PROBLEM TO THE ATTENTION OF OTHERS IS SOMETHING - IT IS NOT WHINING. IF I COULD UNDERLINE AND BOLD SOME OF THESE WORDS I WOULD - IT WOULD EXPRESS MY FRUSTRATION WITH YOUR ATTITUDE. WHY ARE YOU STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND CRITICIZING WHEN YOU SHOULD BE LISTENING AND LEARNING AND MAYBE YOU COULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

Bob H - 12-19-2006 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
7 years ago we spent 3 weeks driving around the Yucatan and we sure did not see all these problems detailed-----we stayed in old Cancun, Tulum, Vallidolid, and many of the small villages thruout Quintana Roo, Campeche, and the Merida area. We thought the whole place was delightful, and pretty darn prosperous. I would revisit the Yucatan in a heartbeat. Cancun peninsula was pretty tacky to us, and we simply drove thru, and then on into Old Cancun which we loved. Merida and Campeche were wonderful. All appeared prosperous to us.

Barry, my wife and I did the same trip to the Yucatan last year and it is exactly as you describe it. We really enjoyed that trip and seeing all the Myan ruins, etc. Beautiful people and wonderful little villages.
Bob H

HotSchott - 12-19-2006 at 05:20 PM

Wilderone,

You sound like a real saint. You have obviously performed a lifetimes worth of community service. I don't know what the problem is with Mexicans. They don't seem to possess the same values as many other countries when it comes to pollution. I suppose poverty has a lot to do with it, but it truly is about their values being different. It is what it is.

I still say that responsible development is plausible and necessary for so many reasons in Mexico. Without it Mexico will NEVER feed and house its growing population. Rather than identify what I know to be problems and places that have been screwed up by pollution, I will continue to seek out places that I enjoy and immerse myself in what beauty I can find. It must be very frustrating for you to feel so disillusioned with development and be so helpless to alter its course. I suggest two or three Pacifico's in the solitude of the remote desert somewhere. Go at night so you don't see the trash.

$$

baja829 - 12-19-2006 at 05:56 PM

I leased a "little" place in Choya Bay, (Rocky Point) in 1963. Incredible fishing village - shrimp $1.80 kilo, etc. etc., sold it all in 1985 -- as it began to balloon-- went back 2 yrs ago and could not recognize it. Will not be going back anytime soon, but know that someday, here in San Felipe, the same can and will happen. Fortunately it's being "well-done" which is a consolation. We still don't have electricity in the South Campos, and it's a ways off, but it will happen. Rocky Point lost it's identity due to Americans. Now they have built what they wanted - a place to party. Baja has so much more to offer as so many are discovering.

Economically, jobs create opportunity and growth for local populations. It allows nationals to stay home - the salaries will never meet what they can receive in the U.S., but it's still an opportunity. If you don't want growth in Mexico, Mexicans will continue to go North. If there's growth here and continued opportunity, due to the Tourist and Rentista dollar, they'll seek those opportunities here. We can't have our cake and eat it too! To us Mexico will always be more than a wonderful place to live. Can't ask for more.

JZ - 12-19-2006 at 06:06 PM

Every Mexican I know would rather stay in Mexico. It is lack of opportunity that makes them go North. I know dozens of people in their early 20's in San Carlos. All have university degrees. The opportunities are limited.

Cultural Displacement

MrBillM - 12-19-2006 at 07:35 PM

For anyone interested, there is an article in today's Los Angeles Times Business Section regarding native Mexican artisans deep in mainland Mexico who make their living handcrafting decorations for which their market is other Mexicans. Their biggest season of the year is Christmas, of course, given the nature of their product. Their livelihood has become increasingly difficult given the price increases for Raw Materials and the fact that their customer base of moderate to poor Mexicans are increasingly turning to cheaper mass-produced decorations from (Drum Roll Please) CHINA.

If anyone is expecting the Mexicans to save their own Native culture and artifacts, they're in for continued disappointment.

Mango - 12-19-2006 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JZ
Every Mexican I know would rather stay in Mexico. It is lack of opportunity that makes them go North. I know dozens of people in their early 20's in San Carlos. All have university degrees. The opportunities are limited.

Very true. Ultimately I belive Mexico, Canada, and the USA will form something like the EU out of necessity to remain competitive in the global market. I think NAFTA was just the tip of the iceburg.

I've only been traveling to Mexico for 10 years, albeit often and extensively, and in that time I have observed enormus change. The first time I went to Oacaxa in 96' I stayed in a hotel for 70 pesos a night. Last year I stayed in the same hotel for 700 pesos a night.

Cell phones are everywhere, roads are greatly improved in many areas, the ranks of the middle class are exploding...

Mexico is changing.. and much for the better. I just hope they start using more than one floorplan for all their tract homes.. Some of the developments look awful..and I wonder how anyone finds "their" home among all the home clones.

I think Plastic is the real issue with trash. Use of more biodegradable and green plastics/containers is well over due throughout the world. The amount of plastics in the oceans is alarming.

Here is interesting article about plastics and the ocean. Recommended reading for those with their heads above the sand...errr garbage.

Minnow - 12-19-2006 at 07:38 PM

Mr. Bill, you read the LA times. Boooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

YOU need the OC registar. :lol:

PS Me too

[Edited on 20-12-2006 by Minnow]

capt. mike - 12-20-2006 at 06:07 AM

yep, Rocky Point was once.............ain't no more. But big frigging deal.
just means ya go find another place.

the vast infrastucture and jobs the gringo enclave brought to RP over the last 30 years has been excellent for the locals and they love it!! good for them and sonora!

Puerto Libertad is the next one, buy now, reap later.
that's REAP, not RAPE!

Phil S - 12-21-2006 at 02:53 PM

a neighbor & friend who has a home in Cave Creek Ar. & Nopolo (Loreto) recently bought a condo in Puerto Penesco. Says an easy drive from Scottsdale area. Good place to invest right now??????Reading about the highway being built surprised me when it was said that Mayan Palace is paying for the construction of the highway & the port entry.???????? Anyone know about Mayan Palace resorts? I know nothing about them other than the one their building in San Jose del Cabo.

capt. mike - 12-22-2006 at 05:30 AM

Phil, the MP in RP is a real deal! i met one of the principals as he arrived in his jet at RP last year, talked for 30 min, very nice and mui rico guy, USA educated, wealthy mex old money family.

RP real estate is a bit flat right now sfter a 3 year hi rise condo boom. but its a cycle, yes 3-4 hour drive from SDL, i hour flight.
good time to buy, yes. all price ranges $100s to $1Ms plus ++

Phil S - 12-22-2006 at 11:59 AM

Mike. Is your comment based on your being in the building trades, or do you have friends that have researched it and are making these recommendations? It's probably a strong market for the Phoenix area residents most likely. And adding the baby boomers who want to experience the "other culture" . How much longer is your 'assignment' before you can return to Phoenix? I've forgotten where you went. Hopefully not DENVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JZ - 12-22-2006 at 02:56 PM

I think RP is a bit jacked up now. I would look a little further South. You get double for your money in SC and its way nicer.

capt. mike - 12-22-2006 at 05:55 PM

yeah, i'd agree there except its double the driving time from phx. but for flyers SC is a big hit.