BajaNomad - More tourists complain of abuse by officials

More tourists complain of abuse by officials

Anonymous - 1-2-2004 at 09:46 PM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20040101-9999_1m1t...

By Sandra Dibble
January 1, 2004

TIJUANA ? Amid a rising number of tourist complaints about police misconduct, an Arizona man has claimed he was stopped by police officers Friday near the San Ysidro border crossing, placed in a police truck and forced at gunpoint to take money from an ATM.

Ron Terwilliger, 44, said he walked across the border to Tijuana the day after Christmas to buy jewelry on Avenida Revolucion. About 4 p.m., as he was lining up to cross back to San Diego, he said, a man in a police uniform motioned him aside. Two other officers soon arrived.

"I feel lucky to be alive," Terwilliger said in a telephone interview from his home in Arizona.

He reported the incident to San Diego police as soon as he returned to the U.S. side.

At least a dozen allegations by U.S. tourists who say they have been extorted or assaulted by Tijuana police have come to light in recent months.

Over the summer, the U.S. Consulate in Tijuana sent the city's internal affairs office complaints filed by eight tourists who said police officers forced them to hand over money, in one case $600.

In the past 15 months, three U.S. women have filed reports with California police agencies accusing Tijuana police officers of rape.

Tijuana law enforcement officials say they are trying to discipline corrupt officers. Gilberto Fimbres, Tijuana's assistant police chief, said nothing will change unless victims report the crimes. "They should have the civic valor . . . or we will never end corruption."

In November, four municipal police officers were arrested after one of the alleged U.S. rape victims crossed the border and identified them as her assailant. One officer was quickly charged with rape, two with extortion and abuse of authority, and the fourth with failing to report the crimes. Two are in prison and two are out on bail until their trials.

Other U.S. victims have seen the wheels of justice turn far more slowly. When Tijuana's head of internal affairs reviewed the complaints from the tourists who said they had been extorted, his office recommended that 16 police officers be dismissed. But David Solis, president of Tijuana's Citizens Council for Public Safety and a member of the Commission of Honor and Justice, said the cases were too weak to warrant outright dismissal.

Instead, the commission ruled in November that only 12 of them should be punished ? with 30-day suspensions without pay.

As of this week, however, none of the officers has been notified of his suspension. Solis said he was told they were still on the job because the department is short-staffed during the holiday season and is waiting until early next year to suspend them.

Terwilliger, a locksmith, said that when he was stopped he was carrying $200 worth of jewelry he had bought as gifts and $10 to pay for his parking across the border.

After leading him for a half-block and handcuffing him, Terwilliger said, the first officer steered him around a corner to a covered white Chevy pickup with a siren on top and marked with the word "Police."

"He told me, 'Get in,' and I said, 'What have I done?' " Terwilliger recalled. "He put his hand on his gun."

The officer wore a brown uniform, the color worn by Tijuana's commercial police, who are paid directly by banks and businesses to protect their premises. They have no authority to patrol near the border.

A second officer arrived in a blue uniform, the color worn by Tijuana's regular patrol officers. Later, Terwilliger noticed a third officer watching from a distance.

Terwilliger said he was told "the judge wants $400. He's very angry at you." He said the officers took his jewelry. They pulled off his shoes, emptied his wallet and drove him to an ATM, forcing him to withdraw more than $200. At one point an officer c-cked his gun.

Terwilliger said he was released after he said he couldn't get any more money out of the machine. After crossing the border, he reported the incident to San Diego police.

U.S. police can do little except tell victims to call the U.S. Consulate, said Sgt. Bob Lopez, head of the San Diego Police Department's Mexico liaison team.

"People think that because we're so physically close it's one, but we're not just talking two different cities. We're talking two different countries," Lopez said.

Liza Davis, a spokeswoman at the U.S. Consulate, said officials are aware of Terwilliger's case.

"We're really pleased that people come forward to us," she said, "and we do aggressively pursue the complaints with local authorities when we know about them."

hahahahahaha

Ski Baja - 1-2-2004 at 09:55 PM

:lol:

corruption in TJ law enforcement

Phil S - 1-3-2004 at 10:25 AM

Ski. My first thought with your ha ha response was, "I hope that this should happen to Ski sometime". Then maybe he might not think it were so funny. I can imagine the terror the gentleman must have felt during that experience. I'm sure your experience in crossing there Ski so many times, has taught you not to "walk" downtown. But what about all those other Americans who are wanting to experience the "mexican" visit? Most likely, enought exposure will force the gov't to do more than "slap hands" I would suppose that maybe all the border towns of any size have this problem. Maybe it's not exposed as well as here.

You all make me so sad.......All ......

Debra - 1-3-2004 at 05:26 PM

I'm kind of phyco right now.....so forgive me (if you please) I .......oh, good gosh, we all lost a good friend today........Can we all stop the bickering for a moment?.....I'm sorry, I'm "on the wrong board"

Anonymous - 1-3-2004 at 10:54 PM

The almighty dollar is the best tool to use to bring the Mexican Gov. pressure on corruption. Foriegners should stay away for a couple of months, this might have a profound effect on additudes.

After hearing about all this abuse

Stephanie Jackter - 1-4-2004 at 01:35 AM

I wouldn't let myself be caught in Tijuana right now for all the trinkets in the world. The fact that few of the accused cops have been disciplined in any way is definitely no laughing matter to all the unwitting potential victims still going there.

Unfortunately, just publiciizing this to the Southern California crowd won't do much good. It's still your average Joe that's coming in from out of state who's getting attacked by these cops and they are also less likely to stick around and complain. I hope this makes it onto one of the news shows like 60 minutes. It's the only way enough people will be warned about this nastiness to bring the economic house down on Tijuana until the mess is cleaned up. - Stephanie

Grains of salt

Ski Baja - 1-4-2004 at 10:33 AM

is what I take anything I read on these boards with.
Having spent a lot of time in TJ, NOT going to bars or being an idiot, I find it hard to believe that Sr. Terwilliger was just pulled out of the innocent line and charged all that money. Especially if there was more than one officer involved.
Something smells a little fishy with this one. Again.
If something like this happens to any of you guys, demand to be taken to the police station. And, if they don't let you, go there immediately after the fact.
Unless of course you don't speak any Spanish which means you really have no business being here anyway.
The Mexican people have a lot more morals than most people north of the border. I am sure there are still some corrupt cops but as far as them acting like terrorists which is what Terwilly is describing, I doubt it.
As far as apologizing to this board so you join my group Skeet, you are the one missing out, not me. I put that Group together for everyones enjoyment and I hope they enjoy what's on there.
Maybe I'll do a "staying safe in dangerous places" section. Let's see, should I start it with Tijuana, San Diego or Los Angeles ?

How about the woman who was raped AT THE POLICE STATION, J.R.? Duhhh.

Stephanie Jackter - 1-4-2004 at 12:24 PM

You can choose to believe whatever fairytales you care to, but the facts are that there's some serious doo doo going down in Tijuana and the big problem is that going to the police station won't help a bit because THEY'RE THE CRIMINALS! And the fact that the majority are not being punished at all shows that this goes way higher than a few street cops. Get Real. - Stephanie

You're absolutely right

Ski Baja - 1-4-2004 at 01:06 PM

If I were you, I wouldn't dare take the chance of coming to this dangerous country at all if I were you guys. You never know what might happen, that's for sure. So, why do you ? And shouldn't you stop coming for your own safety?
I have a feeling that these types of incidents are going to happen more frequently and in many more areas including the american enclaves like BDLA for instance.
I recommend the safety of your own neighborhoods in your own country to insure security, good health and a happy future. Feliz A?o Nuevo :light:

First, JR, I think you know we're discussing a city, not a country.

Stephanie Jackter - 1-4-2004 at 01:24 PM

Go throw back a couple more beers and laugh all you want. If you think that's a constructive way to solve a very concrete and verifiable problem, you're deluded. If you think it's laughable because the problem is so big that it will never be solved or that the victims deserve what they get (which is an obvious tone of your posts), then it's disheartening to know there's somebody out there who might be an even sicker puppy than those doing the crimes. - Stephanie

Here we go

Ski Baja - 1-4-2004 at 01:53 PM

I don't "throw back" many beers. I am laughing because I don't believe half the doo that comes out of peoples mouths, especially when they are talking about a country other than their own.
In many of your minds I am a very sick puppy I am sure. hahahaha And I will never agree with many american ideas which makes me even sicker in some shallow minds but as far as safety in Mexico goes, stay home.
Many people feel much safer here and with very good reason. In the mean time, enjoy your own areas that are free of rape, thievery and crime. We wish we were you. :lol:

Baja Red - 1-5-2004 at 12:20 PM

.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Baja Red]

Ski

Baja Red - 1-5-2004 at 12:30 PM

Ski, I am with you ...partially...You can't believe everything you hear or read. However I did not agree with your:"unless of course you don't speak Spanish which means you really have no business being here anyway"....comment. I live in Long Beach, Ca and I deal with the public daily. Should we send ALL of the people who cannot speak "English" back to where they came from or tell them "you have no business being here if you cannot speak English? I speak a little Spanish and I love going to Baja. I know enough to get by but I am not a pro. I would "like" to learn more Spanish (and I will) but I don't think that just because I don't speak it fluently that I should stay home. Baja Red

Clarification

Ski Baja - 1-5-2004 at 02:32 PM

I said "if you don't speak (any) Spanish". Meaning some will work. Again, it is all about attitudes from what I have seen. I am sure there are exceptions but everytime I have seen a problem occur anywhere down here, it's because of a certain "attitude" that many norte americanos carry around with them. And it's quite common whether some of you want to believe that or not.
Humans are already aware of what I am saying. These are the people that don't go to the american/canadian enclaves for safety in numbers and they are not afraid of seeing the real people and country of Baja and Mexico and learning from them. Rather than teaching them american nonsense.
And yes, I do believe that you should speak the language at least a little bit before moving to a foreign country. Especially if you plan on working at the DMV. :lol:

And by the way, I don't wish anything bad upon anyone. Ever. I may not be sympathetic in many instances but as far as people getting hurt or robbed, I take it highly offensively to be accused of wishing it upon them.
You can take my posts and ------------but as far as you interpreting my meanings , WRONG again Steph.
My brother lives in Long Beach and so do some other Nomads.

BajaNomad - 1-5-2004 at 04:16 PM

Something I wrote seven and a half years ago:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=51r60c%24ccg%40newsbf02...

Subject: Baja/Mexico Paranoia (Was:Robbed by cops in Baja)
Newsgroups: rec.travel.latin-america
Date: 1996/09/19

In article <51iuqr$rpk@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez018859@dale.ucdavis.edu (Marc
Crepeau) writes:

>allegations about raping and knee-cap shooting police in
>Baja... ... this is
>just a lot of paranoid hogwash.

I think I'll raise a Pacifico to all of the paranoia that surrounds North
Americans on travel to Mexico, and *especially* Baja. For if it wasn't
for this, the place would be DELUGED with tourists!!!!!

Here's the address/phone for the Baja California Secretary of Tourism (if
you need it):
P.O. Box 2448
Chula Vista, CA 91912
Phone#: 01152.668.19492
Fax#: 19579

Yeah, I've been hassled for $$$ at times, but that's about the extent of
it. And I CERTAINLY haven't had ANY problems when I'm away from the
cities in a rural locale. People are at their most basic element in these
locations, and they live life "close to the bone." People like this have
little knowledge of politics, living-class, etc. They know what it takes
to survive and enjoy every precious minute of life that's been given to
them. If you were out there in your $20,000 automobile/truck in the
backcountry, and went hiking in your $100 Nikes, with your $500 Nikon
around your shoulder, and hurt yourself..... these people (with few
possessions), would take the last shirt off their back if they needed to
to stop you from bleeding.... and not expect anything in return (except
maybe a little mutual respect). Their reality is that everyone helps
everyone else out.

GOD, what has happened to us in the big cities of North America?????
We're afraid to walk out the door, in fear someone may shoot us down today
(I live in L.A. area, okay!). We're all defensive.... and it all boils
down to the rotten apples making it miserable for the rest of us in the
bunch. We end up not being able to trust anyone, unless you already know
them somehow. Life in largely populated areas becomes more impersonal
than it does in sparsely populated areas.

South Ensenada, I trust ANYONE if I'm in a bind.... and with just reason.
Those who've been there, know it. Those who haven't, don't worry about
it. Stay where you're at. You're right, Mexico is dangerous. And where
you're at, I will presume, is not.... allrighty?

This basic theme has been seen before on the r.t.l-a board. Yes, crime
happens in Mexico (yes, there are rotten apples there too!!). But it also
happens in the U.S. Just look at your newspaper. I see a lot more
shootings/major crimes in Southern California than in Baja on a daily
basis. For me, case closed.

Yes, I have to be smart when in Mexico to avoid being taken advantage of,
but I need to do that in the U.S. too. Some of us just happen to be in
the wrong place at the wrong time, wherever we are, and whatever country
we're in. The luckiest among us, make our own luck by just plain being
aware of our surroundings, and being the smartest travelers we know how to
be.

--
Doug

bajalera - 1-5-2004 at 08:46 PM

JR, that hahahaha wasn't worthy of you. YOU might have enough Mexi-smarts not to be scared shotless in the situation described, but this poor guy obviously didn't have. But I don't think he deserved a snide guffaw--particularly from a guy who devotes considerable time to doing good stuff.

- bajalera

CLARIFICATION II

Ski Baja - 1-5-2004 at 09:12 PM

See my replies to Stephanie J. and Baja Red.
A. Ha HA HA = I don't believe half the dung I read here or elsewhere.
B. READ what I am saying rather than trying to interpret hidden meanings like the Steph.
C. These things happen everywhere.
D. I am not sympathetic to many things that could have been avoided with just a little knowledge or better attitude.
And thank you for your compliment. The feeling is mutual.

JESSE - 1-5-2004 at 09:22 PM

This is nothing new, been goin on for ever, but i am sure glad its getting the attention it deserves.

bajalera - 1-5-2004 at 11:44 PM

Ski
A. Not believing about half of what you read, here or elsewhere, sounds about right to me.
B. I did read your stuff, and seeking secret meanings has never seemed worth the effort.
C. Agreed. Stuff happens everywhere, and what doesn't hit the fan flows downhill.
D. I'm more tolerant of human frailties than you are, but don't think that this earns me any halos.

You're a bit weird, but you already know that.

- bajalera

Touche, Balalera

Stephanie Jackter - 1-6-2004 at 12:59 AM

And to Doug, You, like JR, missed the point completely. I've written the same tomes as you about how people who don't know Mexico judge it very harshly and how glad I am that there's less invasion of the places I love to be in Baja because of it, but frankly, in this case, I consider it a hackneyed and shallow argument. Is this something to be taken lightly simply because it's not likely to happen in La Paz, BCS? - or Boise Idaho, for that matter?

I was very specifically speaking of a specific set of situations having to do SPECIFICALLY with POLICE BRUTALITY in TIJUANA. You name me one city in the US or Mexico where tourists are being taken out of the shopping district and being robbed and raped by the very police that are assigned to protect them. This is insanity and you and JR are treating the issue as if it's a little roadside bribe that one has to pay to get on with a vacation.

No. This is something we should all be up in arms about and let the powers that be in Tijuana know that their City, which bases much of its economy on day tourists, is off our invite list until things change. Not acknowledging the gravity of these crimes or the travesty that the aggressors who have positons of power directly over the tourists who shop there have not been punished, seems to me callous at best and at worst, invites even more terrible behavior by those very criminals.

And as far as Americans being jerks, JR, and therefor deserving what they get, I don't buy into that game of blaming the victim. You think there's more to the story of the woman that got taken by cops away from her husband and child and raped at the police station????

Only what you make up in your own mind so that you can feel superior and invincible. The bottom line is that if you can convince yourselves that whoever got victimized brought on his or her own victimization, then you can walk through the world feeling like nothing like that will happen to you. Well, maybe that will work for you. Maybe it won't.

The only thing I would agree with you on is that those who don't speak spanish are the most likely to be victimized in Tijuana. But, last I saw, that was no crime and those are the very people Tijuana needs to sell all those trinkets to. Most of us who speak spanish haven't bought trinkets in 20 years, have we?

But anybody with half a heart would stand in support of these victims instead of laughing at reports of what happened to them and making them seem responsible for the audacity of taking a day trip to Mexico without speaking the language. What baloney! That attitude is just wrong and you know it. Do you laugh when you hear gang bangers killed an innocent by-stander in Los Angeles? I bet not. Then why laugh or try to make excuses or diminish the importance of the event when cops extort and rape tourists whose only crime has been to come across the border to buy trinkets?

I feel very sorry for those victims. We all should. - Stephanie

Seems to me

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 09:03 AM

that yall would be a little more interested in fixing the problems in your own country rather than spending all this time trying to fix Mexicos problems.
But then, I guess some of us have the need to stick our noses everywhere as long as we can get an argument. Right Steph.
And to answer your question regarding this happening in the U.S., Long Beach had the exact same things going on not too many years ago. They got caught and punished for it too. Just like the TJ officers would have been if Terwilly went to the Police Station. In Mexico.
Unless of course you believe that all TJ cops are dishonest like Steph. And again, if this is the case, stay home.

Dave - 1-6-2004 at 10:39 AM

How to solve the problem:

A couple of vigilantes should pick up the cops in question, take them for a joy ride and "explain" how not to treat those they are sworn to protect, with a warning that if this continues, others will meet the same fate. Once this got back to their brother officers you would see a marked decline in this kind of behavior.

Anonymous - 1-6-2004 at 11:22 AM

JR, what would you prefer us tourist do? Stay out of Mexico altogether, because the local cops won't protect it's dollar spending visitors.
Over recent years this has become the issue with prospective tourist as well as those of the past. I have had mumerous friends who love to go to Baja in the past. I can not get a single one to travel with me anymore. They say its not save, all the news is bad and they would rather stay and vacation in this country. If this keeps up, what will happen to Mexico's number ONE industry?

What will happen ?

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 11:58 AM

The Canadians, Japanese, Europeans and well to do Mexicans will continue to take over and develop as they are already doing everywhere in Baja besides BDLA, Gonzaga Bay and Punta Peque?a where the american enclaves are.
As far as american tourists go, I recommend doing a little bit of research and study before visiting any country. And leaving your attitudes at home where they belong. These people are very happy and honest. Except in the cities. Just like in the U.S.

My recommendations

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 12:32 PM

Problems I have personally witnessed in Mexico by American tourists are generally attitude related. Many of these problems could be avoided had a little respect been shown from the americans having the problems.
Knowing the laws of Mexico or any country you are visiting is a wise idea. Most of the problems arise from a law being broken.
Speaking the basics of the language will get you far. And for some of you, "The Basics" doesn't mean talking louder but using please and thank you instead. In Spanish.
Baja is being populated by the people that don't read the nonsense that the U.S. media loves to write about Mexico. And these people seem to love it here. So do I.
I doubt there is a place on the planet without some sort of crime but for americans to make such a big deal out of the crimes committed in Mexico while they are themselves afraid to go out after dark in their own country does tend to bother me. Something about the frying pan calling the kettle black.
When and if these american people were to set a good example with their own country and families, many more would be a little more respectful and attentive to their blabber and attempts to americanize the rest of the planet.
The way it stands now, very little respect is being shown to the average american because of what their government is doing. Most Mexican people have morals enough to show respect but the criminals just don't care about much of anything. Especially dumb gringos.
Bottom line. Learn the language. Learn the laws. Pay attention and show respect. You are gauranteed respect from all that way. Including the criminals.

Anonymous - 1-6-2004 at 01:18 PM

Don't worry Stephanie! I think one of those Tijuana street corner zebra-striped burros runs more risk of being raped than you.... :moon:

Ski Baja/attitudes

Baja Red - 1-6-2004 at 01:41 PM

I know what you mean about "attitudes". I have "ALWAYS" been polite and courteous to the Federallys, police, and anyone else that I come across while in Baja. I was taught many years ago to have respect for it's people and their land. I have never been treated badly while in Baja. 20 years ago while on a trip from Guerro Negro to San Franciscuito (a rough ride at the time!!) we came to a fork in the road and a rancher pointed us in the right direction. We gave him some sodas and were on our way. Fortunately for us he had pointed us in the right direction. If you go there with a "holy-er-than-thou" attitude you will get treated differently. If you give attitude, you will get it back. And as far as the Spanish goes....as long as you can say "taco de pescado and dos cerveza por fa vor" you've got it made!!! :lol:

No, really...I am starting a Spanish class this month!! Ski, Happy New Year!! Baja Red :lol:

dos cervezas

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 01:53 PM

Assuming that you are ordering that extra cerveza to share with someone, you won't even need the Spanish classes! :light:

Dave - 1-6-2004 at 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ski Baja
Problems I have personally witnessed in Mexico by American tourists are generally attitude related. Many of these problems could be avoided had a little respect been shown from the americans having the problems.
Knowing the laws of Mexico or any country you are visiting is a wise idea. Most of the problems arise from a law being broken.
---------------------------------------------------
Bottom line. Learn the language. Learn the laws. Pay attention and show respect. You are gauranteed respect from all that way. Including the criminals.

Nonsense! Problems with corrupt cops has nothing to do with attitude. Crooked cops are criminals with badges and do not deserve courtesy OR respect. They deserve to have their kneecaps busted.

I could care less if criminals respect me. I do however want them to FEAR me.

You name me one city...

Herb - 1-6-2004 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephanie Jackter
You name me one city in the US or Mexico where tourists are being taken out of the shopping district and being robbed and raped by the very police that are assigned to protect them.

Oh, let's see, how about making a list of the 50 largest cities in the US and then the answer would be?

All of them have the same problem! It's just how you define "tourists."

There are corrupt law enforcement officers and corrupt people everywhere. We have a former highway patrol officer serving a life sentence in prison here in California for raping and killing a woman he pulled over. There is an investigation still going on in Los Angeles (for years now) trying to catch all of the officers that were involved in a string of police atrocities that included extortion, robbery narcotics trafficking and murder.

The key for corrupt law enforcement anywhere is to choose victims who are likely to have no viable recourse against their assailants. That is why here in the US the majority of the victims of these crimes are people who are themselves criminals or have commited a crime. They are less likely to come forward and complain and are unlikely to be believed even if they do. (It was not so very long ago in this country that people would regularly fall into this category just because of the color of their skin, whether they had commited a crime or not. It still happens, just not regularly)

In Tijuana, it is assumed by the thugs that the foreign tourist, particulaly one who does not seem savvy or speak the language, who is least likely to have recourse and so becomes the common victim.

The only reason that rape occurs so infrequently among corrupt law enformcement here is because they are well aware of the technology available to prove their crime beyond a "he said, she said" credibility gap. When they still cross that line, then they dispose of the body like the Highway Patrol officer I mentioned above.

So, there are bad apples in every profession in every country. What bothers me most, as well as others who have posted on this topic, is how as soon as any thing like this happens in Mexico we want to get on our high horse and threaten to "show them!" To quote someone here, "Hahahahahaha!"

The fact is, we have. You see, there are some that say we should use our economic leverage and threaten their tourist revenue if they don't clean up their act. Well, add up all of the money flowing through Tijuana as the result of: Americans buying narcotic drugs in the US that were smuggled thruogh that region, Americans crossing the border to buy prescription drugs illegaly, underage teenagers coming to Mexico to drink illegally, Americans of all ages coming to buy all sorts of other contraband, American "Johns" seeking illegal paid affection for one evening and foreigners from everywhere paying bribes to run their maquiladora plants contrary to the laws and the intent of NAFTA...

It quickly becomes obvious that the revenue from the sale of "trinkets" is not so signficant and I believe the ongoing trend in police corruption in Tijuana reflects as much. Given the environment and the typical police salary, I believe it is a testament to the inherent decency of Mexican culture and society as a whole that there are any honest cops at all in Tijuana and that complete and total lawless chaos doesn't rule the streets.

Don't get me wrong. I like to hear warnings, even if they are rumors, just to get a feel for what the word on the street is so I can be more informed and aware. I am also savvy enough not to totally believe everthing I hear, though. ( I wonder how many of these forced withdrawals are stories by the aformentioned Johns used to placate suspicious spouses who question, "How in the heck did you drink $300 worth of tequila in one night?)

So, yes, I do believe there is a growing problem in Tijuana as Jesse, who lives there, can attest. But before we start spouting off about how WE ought to show THEM, lets remember that THEY are not unique and that sometimes WE are part of the problem.

Anonymous - 1-6-2004 at 05:05 PM

I have always maintained a respectful additude in Mexico. For the most part I have had wonderful experiences while visiting there. But every now and then I run to a local with a rude disposition, such as your's By the way what is you do in Rosarito? Do you own a tourist destination, or work in one????

Dave - 1-6-2004 at 05:12 PM

Excellent post Herb!

Nonsense

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 06:10 PM

Take it back you big pastrami head. You know what I am saying and it's true. With a little savvy, even the corrupt cops go away. But, the majority of problems down here don't stem from corrupt cops. They come from drunk gringos.

All your points (except the HaHaHa part, which I still think is crass as Hell), are well taken, Herb

Stephanie Jackter - 1-6-2004 at 07:56 PM

You put up an eloquent argument. Dave's point that a corrupt cop is a corrupt cop and should have his power taken away toot sweet is also well taken.

But back to your argument, we can definitely blame Americans for having helped create an environment that led to this insanity, but to blame the victims of these attacks is an insult to those who were injured and supports future criminality even further.

And you're unfortunately probably right about future events as well. If the women who were raped are successful in their prosecution of these rapists, the message to future rapists may well be not to leave any evidence behind next time. - Stephanie

Dave - 1-6-2004 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ski Baja
Take it back you big pastrami head. You know what I am saying and it's true. With a little savvy, even the corrupt cops go away. But, the majority of problems down here don't stem from corrupt cops. They come from drunk gringos.

Well, maybe you and I could finesse our way out of a potentially dangerous situation but we're not the typical casual tourists in TJ, and I'm NOT talking about rude, drunk gringos either, (although that shouldn?t matter).

Regardless of the situation OR one's demeanor, law enforcement officials everywhere have a RESPONSIBILITY to behave in a professional and courteous manner. There is no excuse for this kind of S**t, in Mexico OR the U.S. Machismo should end when a person puts on a uniform, badge and straps on a gun. Robbery and rape are NOT acceptable behavior, no matter what the provocation, no matter what the country. U.S. tourists even the rude, belligerent and/or drunk ones and Mexican citizens have the right to DEMAND proper police behavior.

Now, when are we going to the big city to sip some suds?

I don't know,

Ski Baja - 1-6-2004 at 08:36 PM

I'm startin to get a little nervous about going to Tijuana. But not as nervous as going to L.A. so let's make it pretty soon. Next Tuesday work for you ?
And I also am a firm believer in vigilante justice when called for. It is still practised here when dealing with real criminals and those that are considered harmful to society. Rather than the victim of the crime losing on all counts as in the U.S.. Got robbed and killed the verga, now you go to jail for murder ? Brilliant system they have going up there!

[Edited on 1-7-2004 by Ski Baja]

Anonymous - 1-7-2004 at 03:37 PM

Ski Baja

Certainly the Lord rewards the behavior of the godly, but the behavior of the wicked is self destructive; psalms 1:6

Praise the gourd

Ski Baja - 1-7-2004 at 11:40 PM

Anonymous - 1-8-2004 at 10:21 AM

The Tongue of the Wise treats Knowledge correctly but the mouth of the fool spouts out folly. Proverbs 15:2

police abuse

Brian Hadcock - 1-8-2004 at 02:16 PM

This is my first time at this site and I was very entertained by what I have read. Now I have only been going to Mexico ( mainland) and the Baja for the last 40 years so I am relatively new to this counrty. I have always traveled by road and by doing so I have had the opportunity of meeting many locals. And I must say a friendlier people I have never found. Now the border Police Forces have been another matter. And I might add I have crossed into Mexico at many different crossings.
The fact that the Police would accost a tourist or anyone for that matter is unacceptable. Lanuage barrier not with standing. When people in power abuse that power it affects us all tourists and locals alike. A please don't use the excuse that it happens in the USA and Canada as examples to nullify what happens in the Baja and Mexico (Mainland). Over the past 40 years I have see an increase in the agressiveness of the Mexican Police, and quite frankly I find it disturbing. I have like many been ask for money to make a minor problem go away. But you can always ask to be taken to the Police Station in the hope that everything will be solved. And as I read the postings some people seem to have the idea that alot of the problems expressed were brought upon themselves. Could be true, to a point, but still no excuse for those you would hope to protect you, to in fact abuse you. Now getting back to the problems in the USA and Canada with regards to police corruption. I have be a Peace Officer for more years than I care to remember and the police corruption and abuse of power is almost zero when you take the number of police officer there are. I wish I could say that about out Mexican counter parts. The only thing I feel we can do about the problem is what I tell folks at home here, be aware of your surroundings and when in doubt have others near by and travel with others. Also show some empathy for those people that are trusting of others and are let down by that trust. Everytime this happens another small piece of humanity is sliced away and we are all lesser for it. Well that about does it I have shoot my bolt. Thanks for the opportunity. And please forgive the spelling errors, I am well educated but still can't spell.
Brian

Very well spoken

Ski Baja - 1-8-2004 at 02:52 PM

Thanks Brian, I am sure you are an outstanding officer.

Anonymous - 1-8-2004 at 03:31 PM

Answer not a Fool According to his Folly,Lest thou also be Like Unto Him.

Proverbs 26:3

Oh brother !!

Ski Baja - 1-8-2004 at 03:41 PM

:lol:

Brian,

Stephanie Jackter - 1-8-2004 at 09:30 PM

You are literate, well spoken, plenty perceptive, and you spell better than I do. So, there! - Stephanie