BajaNomad

Is this normal?

KenS - 1-28-2007 at 05:45 AM

Let me start by saying that I am a newcomer to this site. I have lurked for months, and recently registered (I heard about the site by lurking on the rv.net forums)

I am new to Baja, but not to Mexico, I spent a lot of time in the 90's on trips which started in el DF and radiated out, learning about the culture, the people, and the language that I have come to love.

Over the past few years, circumstance has limited my trips to day-long excursions to Sanborn's for lunch and to look for the latest edition of Mexico Desconocido and what ever interesting books I might find. Today (Saturday) was my first trip in about a year and probably my last into Baja.

Until today, the only contacts I had ever had with the police or military in Mexico was at checkpoints in Oaxaca and Guerrero, which were always professional and pleasant.

Today in Tijuana, I was frisked three times on my walk from the border to downtown and back.

The last frisk was a "double dipper", both officers felt the need to frisk me. The second officer seemed to be finished when he reached between my legs and squeezed hard enough to bring tears to my eyes. (I'll say here, I am somewhat fat and "40ish", I could be subdued by more humane methods, if necessary) I knew better than to say anything as he went through my wallet, counting my money and commenting on how much it was (it was less than $100 but it was mostly small bills, so it may have seemed like a lot).

He then pleasantly thanked me and sent me on my way.

As someone who has developed a long-standing love affair with Mexico and has always poo-pooed any stories I heard of official misbehaviour I was devastated. I walked to the border in a haze and will admit I've shed a tear tonight, not so much because of the humiliation but from a sense of loss.

I realize that this is a relatively small thing, but it's now 4:00 a.m. and I can't shake it.

It seems like the folks on BajaNomad.com don't really stop in TJ if they can help it, but maybe someone can tell me if this is normal? I will soon be able to resume my travels to Mexico, am I somehow wrong to write off Baja completely?

I realize this post may not be right for this forum, and I'm sorry if I've violated your space.

FARASHA - 1-28-2007 at 05:58 AM

NO Problem - it is about BAJA after all. SO-get it off your chest, it sounds as this was an traumatizing (and painful) event for you. IT IS HUMILIATING what you encountered, and comes close to sexual harrassement. And it would P$$ me Off too. You have the right to feel the way you do now. Bodysearch happens, so I heard, but that seems to me a bit too much,it is intimidating. Another reason (for me) to FLY in, rather then to cross border in BCN.
My 2 cents >f<

[Edited on 28-1-2007 by FARASHA]

bajabound2005 - 1-28-2007 at 08:55 AM

What's happening in TJ is not normal. Tijuana is pretty much under military law right now due to its enormous problems. A trip to TJ is NOT a trip to Baja, not even close! Next time, drive down, and get further south. Or walk over and hop on the ABC bus to take you wherever it might go! You'll have a much more pleasant experience.

Bajalover - 1-28-2007 at 09:23 AM

Sorry to hear of your experience. Baja isn't like that. It's an outstandingly beautiful place with people, food, sights which only lift your spirits and not harass them.
A scarey thought - being physically checked out like that.

When I travel to Baja, I don't stop for 200 miles (San Quentin - Cielito Lindo). THERE, things begin looking, feeling, and tasting like the Baja I've come to love.

:bounce: Give Baja a chance, You'll love it.

DENNIS - 1-28-2007 at 09:24 AM

Kinda like strolling around Bahgdad. Is that spelling correct?
Is everybody in TJ getting this attention? If so, it's worse than I'd imagined. Mexico Desconocido isn't worth the humiliation.
By the way, Ken, isn't MD published in the U.S.? Check out their website. It's a great magazine.

FARASHA - 1-28-2007 at 09:41 AM

Don't think Dennis that you'll be searched in Baghdad like that. You're either shot at, or blasted away by a car bomb.:lol:
I do remember a thread, about Bodysearch, a couple month ago. It was a 70 something woman that was searched, and she carried drugs. Can't recall if it was TJ or SY.
Basically nothing wrong with Bodysearch - had it on Airports. It is about HOW it is done. It should not HURT or Intimidate.
>f<

Paulina - 1-28-2007 at 09:57 AM

I might suggest that you report your experience to the Dept. of Tourism.

Bajafun777 - 1-28-2007 at 10:11 AM

Ken, it is too bad you experienced this. You do have a right to complain to the Mexican Consul regarding this treatment. There is good and bad in officers on both sides of the border, you happened upon a bad one:(. I have traveled into Baja and mainland Mexico for over 40 years and have experienced the good and a few bad situations. It is good you maintained yourself and did not say anything back, as it would have only made the situation worse. TJ is under a lot of pressure to clean its mess up but it is a mess that is not going to be easy to get under control. I agree with the others TJ is not Baja and do not let one wise guy ruin your future fun and enjoyment. The Mexican Tourist agency can also take complaints and it may not resolve your situation but the complaint may get the government to tell their border police or military to be professional with tourists. The bottom line if nobody reports these things then nobody will be told to stop such actions. They have the right to search and do pat downs but not to harm in their searching techniques. You did not say if you were traveling with others but this also helps these type of actions not to occur when you have friends with you, additionally Baja is always great with friends:bounce:.

Bajalero - 1-28-2007 at 10:56 AM

KenS

You should talk to this woman reporter who's looking for just such a story.


http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22179&pag...

As far as what is normal , there is no normal in Mex.

The way it is going, it will remain an unpredictable and for some a dangerous place for a long time.

Chin up amigo , worse things have happened to people.

Like the sign says...

Don Alley - 1-28-2007 at 11:17 AM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22206

...they have the power to make injuries:no:

[Edited on 1-28-2007 by Don Alley]

No, it's not normal

fdt - 1-28-2007 at 12:23 PM

I am very upst at this that happened to you, it is not normal. I really don't have great writing skills, specialy right now that I read your post. These abusive %$@?*^$%$ should be sent to some shark or piraña infested waters. There are many, if not the vast majority of us Tijuana residents that are really trying very hard to change this. For 3 weeks now you could sense a certain degree of peace in the city, when the above mentioned %^$%#*)*(&%^ had no weapons, call it coinsidence if you want, but we all felt prety good, there was some doubt, but as time passed we did not feel unsafe without them having guns. They, the ^$%^^%#$%%&^are so ridiculous, with that slingshot BS they did. Believe me, most of us did not feel bad for them. Now they have their guns back and we realy hope they don't come back with a vengence. Were they armed? I know that they aren't all ^%&^$&&^*, but the 2 or 10 or 100 that are make a name for them all. I know for a fact that there are people with power or position that are trying to make a difference and there are some of us that are doing it in our own different ways, because we want to know that we live in a good city, a peaceful, noble, welcoming, friendly, safe and hospitalarian city. I have to dissagree with those that say that Tijuana is not México or that is not Baja California, because it is. This is not Baghdad, we are not and never were under martial law, whoever sais that IMHMO resembles the sligshot cops, just ridiculous, not worthy of a response.
I've done it before and will do it again and again and every time I see that I can, I will intervene. First thing tomorrow I will drop everything and persue your case with whatever authority can give response to this. I am sure you realize that in order to do this I will need some info from you, ie. names? badge #'s? time of day? etc. Can you do this?

What a way to start this day, :fire:

FARASHA - 1-28-2007 at 01:17 PM

fdt I am sure Ken will feel some comfort through your words, and you just made it up - showing that there ARE kind and caring Mexican people in TJ. BRAVO - I'm so happy about your post!! >f<

Hook - 1-28-2007 at 01:21 PM

I hope this doesnt appear callous, as you were clearly violated. But could you clarify something.....did the policeman proceed to relieve you of the contents of your wallet? It was unclear to me.

A groping of a 40ish man would be, well, something that I have never heard of by TJ police, unless it was simply a thorough weapon search.

[Edited on 1-28-2007 by Hook]

fdt - 1-28-2007 at 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fdt
I have to dissagree with those that say that Tijuana is not México or that is not Baja California, because it is. This is not Baghdad, we are not and never were under martial law, whoever sais that IMHMO resembles the sligshot cops, just ridiculous, not worthy of a response.


PS. Forgot to mention Los Cabos, it too is Baja California

DENNIS - 1-28-2007 at 02:18 PM

fdt -----------
It may not be Baghdad to you and I realize Marshall Law isn't in place but, for Ken and many others, it is equally inhospitible when they are victimized by a police department which has earned their abusive reputation.
I appreciate you're defense of the finer attributes of a great city but, too many people are denied that by bad experiences from those who are supposed to honor and protect everybody, not grope at their crotch just for walking down the street.

Not worthy of a response?

Iflyfish - 1-28-2007 at 02:50 PM

You are describing symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress secondary to a physical violation. Farasha is wise in her post. It is important to talk about htis and not internalize the feelings. You have been violated. It is wrong what was done to you. You experienced on a minor level what women often feel when raped. Your trust has been violated.

Keep talking about this and also focus on how you survived. You did great. You did not escalate and instinctively knew how to survive this situation. You may find as you think about it how powerful you were in that situation. Many who are not as self protective might have escalated this and then things could have really gone south. Good work!

I have traveled in Mexico for the same amount of time as you. Your feelings of Mexico aught to be seperate from your feelings about this abusive situation. Don't confuse Mexico and the years of experience you have with the wonderful people here with what that sadistic and insecure SOB did to you. Repressed Homosexuals can be very violent and his abuse of you may have been his own homosexuality "leaking out" in a culture that supports machismo. He is a sexual sadist who is operating on a low level. A real sick puppy and you survived. His later victims may not be so lucky.

I am in Baja and loving it. I also am cautious and avoid TJ like the plague. Having said that I have found wonderful people like FTD in TJ that have bent over backwards to help me.

On this trip. looking for the office to get my vehicle tag, I got lost and people came up to our rig to offer help unbidden. Remember those who have treated you with love, respect and regard. Those experiences far outnumber the sort of abusive experience you just survived.

Sexual saddists occur in all cultures. There was recently a very good film with Denzel Washington wo played an upper class black man whose wife is groped at a traffic stop. It happens in the US too, only more often to women than men.

My best to you. Thanks for posting.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 1-28-2007 at 05:19 PM

Ifly -----
Total BS on on your evaluation of Kens experience. It wasn't a queer cop doing a homo thing. It was a cop on a power trip, abusing a victim.
It's the same scenario of strong versus weak which takes place in prisons every day, every minute.
It usually isn't sexually driven. It is power driven.
Some cops are into doing there job.
Some cops are into doing you.

sylens - 1-28-2007 at 05:27 PM

sexually aggressive/invasive acts (rape and assaultive groping/pat downs) are rarely about sexual desire; almost always they are about power. perp's sexual orientation is entirely beside the point. iflyfish was right on the money in his response to the victim, imho.

DENNIS - 1-28-2007 at 05:46 PM

Well sylens ----
What about my response, which is the one that addressed your opinion.
Are you ignoring my input, or, just not reading it?
What do you know about PTSD?
What do you know about jail rape?
What do you know about power abuse?
What do you know about empathy?

dennis

sylens - 1-28-2007 at 06:58 PM

actually, i am agreeing with you about the power issue and commenting that it is not inconsistent with iflyfish's response to the victim.

my credentials? i'd be glad to u2u if you wish<:O)

and yours?

FARASHA - 1-28-2007 at 11:55 PM

KenS - Please check your U2U - >f<

Thanks

KenS - 1-29-2007 at 10:24 AM

Thank you all very much for you responses. Sorry I kind of dropped off the thread after I started it, but I began to think it was a little silly to have even posted it. What happened to me is so insignificant in the larger picture that I'm now a little embarrased.

However, I think that putting what I was feeling in writing and seeing thoughtful responses that were sensitive to my feelings have helped me feel this way. (I actually wrote my original post about five times, changing it from a CAPS ON rant to something that was hopefully a little more rational)

Some people asked me specific questions or raised issues that I'd like to address, so I will do that in direct response to those postings.

Thanks again and BTW, in spite of what I said in my original post, I won't stop going to Baja... what a goofy thought. I'm thinking of going to Ensenada this weekend.

Ken

KenS - 1-29-2007 at 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabound2005
What's happening in TJ is not normal. Tijuana is pretty much under military law right now due to its enormous problems. A trip to TJ is NOT a trip to Baja, not even close! Next time, drive down, and get further south. Or walk over and hop on the ABC bus to take you wherever it might go! You'll have a much more pleasant experience.


I have actually thought of taking a bus just for a change of pace. Where do he ABC busses leave from?

KenS - 1-29-2007 at 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fdt
I am very upst at this that happened to you, it is not normal. I really don't have great writing skills, specialy right now that I read your post. These abusive %$@?*^$%$ should be sent to some shark or piraña infested waters. There are many, if not the vast majority of us Tijuana residents that are really trying very hard to change this. For 3 weeks now you could sense a certain degree of peace in the city, when the above mentioned %^$%#*)*(&%^ had no weapons, call it coinsidence if you want, but we all felt prety good, there was some doubt, but as time passed we did not feel unsafe without them having guns. They, the ^$%^^%#$%%&^are so ridiculous, with that slingshot BS they did. Believe me, most of us did not feel bad for them. Now they have their guns back and we realy hope they don't come back with a vengence. Were they armed? I know that they aren't all ^%&^$&&^*, but the 2 or 10 or 100 that are make a name for them all. I know for a fact that there are people with power or position that are trying to make a difference and there are some of us that are doing it in our own different ways, because we want to know that we live in a good city, a peaceful, noble, welcoming, friendly, safe and hospitalarian city. I have to dissagree with those that say that Tijuana is not México or that is not Baja California, because it is. This is not Baghdad, we are not and never were under martial law, whoever sais that IMHMO resembles the sligshot cops, just ridiculous, not worthy of a response.
I've done it before and will do it again and again and every time I see that I can, I will intervene. First thing tomorrow I will drop everything and persue your case with whatever authority can give response to this. I am sure you realize that in order to do this I will need some info from you, ie. names? badge #'s? time of day? etc. Can you do this?

What a way to start this day, :fire:


fdt - thank you for your kind words and I'm sorry this was so upsetting for you. Unfortunately all I can tell you is it was about 8ish pm on the pedestrian bridge that many of us take to downtown (can't explain where it is, but hopefully you know what I'm talking about) The bridge was nearly empty but not completely and I was not the only person stopped. I did not see if they were armed as they were both wearing big jackets. I didn't ask names, badge numbers or anything all I thought of was getting home.

Sorry I don't have more information but I do applaud your efforts to make positive changes.

Ken

KenS - 1-29-2007 at 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
I hope this doesnt appear callous, as you were clearly violated. But could you clarify something.....did the policeman proceed to relieve you of the contents of your wallet? It was unclear to me.

A groping of a 40ish man would be, well, something that I have never heard of by TJ police, unless it was simply a thorough weapon search.

[Edited on 1-28-2007 by Hook]


Hook - No, the policeman didn't take anything from my wallet and he actually counted the bills without removing them (maybe he wasn't counting, just looking for something between each one?) he was the only one I encountered who cared to look in my wallet and he did not look in the small shopping bag I was carrying

Ken

FARASHA - 1-29-2007 at 10:52 AM

Great to see you are back on KenS ! Welcome BACK - sometimes memory comes back, after couple days you might remember some things!
>f<

DianaT - 1-29-2007 at 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by KenS
Thank you all very much for you responses. Sorry I kind of dropped off the thread after I started it, but I began to think it was a little silly to have even posted it. What happened to me is so insignificant in the larger picture that I'm now a little embarrased.

Ken


It is easy to become embarrased, but don't! You were violated by a power and control freak with an act of violence--and because of his power, you were not able to respond toward him---a wise decsion.

Glad you didn't just shake if off----might have come back on you.

Take care of yourself --- good to hear you feeling better.

Diane

fdt - 1-29-2007 at 11:41 AM

OK

SoCalAl - 1-30-2007 at 09:25 AM

Hello KenS,
Many years ago, 16 to be exact I was stoped by TJ Police for urinating in a parking lot structure. I walked for blocks back then and could not find a toilet and or an empty lot or foeld or anything and I had to go. So I walked into the parking lot structue where I had parked my car after dropping my little brother off at the airpost that afternoon and decided to take a wiss right there. By the time i was getting ready to get into my car, the police magically showed up. I could not figure out how they had made it inside the parking structure on foot and then the nightmare began.
At first it was about money.... They just wanted a bribe but the truth was I did not have much, about 15 dollars in my wallet. They searched my car, my pockets, my wallet and in particular there was one officer (jerk) that was very agressive. They asked me to explain why I did what I did and the one officer agreed there was no restrooms in the area while the jerk was like, well that is no excuse, your not a little boy. So I knew right there I was in deep crap.
The one officer told the other guy let's get out here as they took my fifteen bucks but the jerk insisted no. So they or rather said the jerk put me in the back of the patrol car and started cruising the city wit me in the car all the meanwhile trying to convince me to go to the ATM and get him some cash.
I got to a point where I said I do not have any. All I had was what I gave you. So this JERK, decided he was going to intimidate me further by driving the patrol car into some hills (I think in Otay Mesa) or somewhere towards the airport. The sun was already sitting on the horizon and it was geting dark. This guy wanted the money at all costs and I knew it was a volitole and dangerous situation. All the mean-while the partner was politly trying to tell the guy to forget about it and just take me back. But the jerk insisted and began to get angry.
I remember I did have some money in my account enough to withdraw the maximum at the time, I think 200 dollars and I had told these guys I did not have it so I knew I could not back down. I had to stick with my story if it cost me my life. I knew that if I had given in to the Jerk's demands I be i deep crap. So up on the hill and already in the midst of dusk and nightfall upon us, the two officers began to argue. So the Jerk began to walk around into the driver seat and the other officer opened the back door and asked me to get out. I got out and they left me on top of that hill with about 10 mintes of daylight left.
In my heart I was always thankful to God and that one officer who told me to get out. I knew that he saved me from at least a beating if not my life. I was not excited about taking my brother into TJ but did it cause he is family and look what happend. Anyway to make a long story short after walking for a few minutes, I convinced a family living on the hill to give me a ride to my car and I walked into the ATM across the parking lot pulled out a few bucks and gave it to the people. I felt a little redemtion as I handed them a $20 and thought about all the other possibilities.
When I drive to Baja, I drive right through TJ, I don't stop to eat, I don't stop to drink or socialize, I just drive through cause I have to but I consider TJ the Compton of Baja. No a days I drive right through Rosarito and soon I know I will be driving right through Ensenada as I already do half the time. I guess it is just the nature of the beast of greed. Give them a chance and they will stick you. But south of Rosarito I feel safe, at least for now.
Don't be discuoraged, that kind of stuff happens even in America as it something similar happend in San Diego few years later with INS officers. It a power trip for many of those guys.

SoCalAl

Iflyfish - 1-30-2007 at 05:40 PM

Good to see you back online Ken and I am glad to see this is getting resolved for you. There are some wonderful and amazing people on this forum.

Many of us have this sort of experience and remain silent and then carry the scars. Your sharing of your experience will, I hope help us all to be cautious and more open in sharing our experiences with others.

I really like what jdtrotter, Diane, said about embarrassment. Embarrassment is often what keeps us from talking about these experiences and then these experiences can become internalized i.e. "what could I have done to cause it?", "what did I do different this time" etc. and negative decisions can be made that further affect our lives, like, "I caused this", "I will never do..........again." This further victimizes the victim.

Female victims of sexual abuse and rape often do not report their experiences due to shame and the inevitable blame inherant in the questions about how they might have handled things differantly etc. I think it is often even more courage for men to report these experiences.

I mentioned a film in my previous post. I now remember the name of the film. It is called "Crash". It is an excellent movie that explores that complex dynamics involved in this sort of experience. I would highly recommend this film to anyone interested in this issue.

Iflyfish

Mike Supino - 1-30-2007 at 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoCalAl
But south of Rosarito I feel safe, at least for now.
SoCalAl


I'm thinking El Rosario not Rosarito!

SoCalAl - 1-31-2007 at 08:31 AM

Mike,
You may be right... Maybe I did mean south of El Rosario:lol: Really though, once you are away from the border towns it gets better. Once you are away from the hustlers and etc. Border towns tend to be inhabited by people from all over the country and mostly with people from major cities. So even when a say "farmer" or someone from the country or a small pueblo come to places like TJ, they themselves are victimized. I am Mexican born in Mexico, speak fluent Spanish, became an American Citizen and yet I have been targeted several times in Mexico and each time it has been by police. I can think of three incidents right off the bat. Two in TJ and once in La Jolla (believe it or not):cool: For the cop in La Jolla I had to pop out my US Passport and as soon as I did that he stoped dead in his tracks about how he was treating me. You know I still have the cactus leaf forhead look (Cara de nopal) :lol::lol: but these guys do not know that I am an American Citizen... ;)

Once I traveled to Puerto Vallarta and the Mexican Customs agents, would not let me into Puerto Vallarta and or out to return to the USA. They held me for about 30 minutes trying to get me to pay them a few hundred dollars. I finally gave in to their demands and forked out 15 dollars:P I remember telling them, is this the way you treat Mexicans that come back home. The guy said how do I know your Mexican? I said do you not see my birth certificate? He said you could be Central American? I said and you can't tell simply by looking at my Cactus Face? Like I said I speak fluent Spanish and I told the guy since when did you ever here a Central American speak like a Mexican does.

Ohh in that one they had a woman frisk me:o well at least this time it got me thinking,:rolleyes:, never mind..

kellychapman - 2-1-2007 at 12:59 PM

It seems like I hold my breath from the TJ border till south of Ensanada.......my hands have to almost be pried from the wheel upon first entry...but after that it is all good......at least for me in the years of living here....This all sounds like a horrible experience and it is not normal in my eyes and being a woman I can relate.....hope your feeling better. Mexico is a great place and horrible things happen everywhere.....it sucks......
My only experience was a horrible time in the wee hours of the morning just out of Ensanada (talk about stupied) and the cops wanted me out of the car....I refused and put my stafford shire terrier in my lap....cost me 600 pesos but sure made me sweat....and I DID NOT GET OUT OF THE CAR......
I am alot more careful now!!!!:light:

I appreciate all the responses and info

zforbes - 2-1-2007 at 01:38 PM

I have been debating if I have enough experience to drive from San Diego to Asuncion. After hearing these stories, I think I'm not yet familiar enough with the roads and turns to venture on my own through TJ. Beyond that, I feel ok (well, except for those hairy grades with skinny roads). Thanks for sharing your experiences. Zoe

Bajalover - 2-1-2007 at 07:19 PM

zforbes, it's not that bad. The first time is alittle stressfull but once on Hwy1 toll road it's quite easy. If you're driving south to Asuncion on Sunday 2/4 - I'll gladly join you on the southerly route. Shall be towing a Coors Can Condo (airstream trailer).
If not - good luck with your travels and don't let TJ traffic get in the way of your Baja experience. Baja's great.

kellychapman - 2-1-2007 at 10:08 PM

It is one of the most beautiful drives ever and is very stressful at first....then you can relax and have a wonderful time....but being a defensive driver helps alot....I have traveled it many times and love it....you should team up Bajalover if it works out for you....what fun....I cannot wait to go up to Asuncion and shake rattle and roll...:wow:

Iflyfish - 2-2-2007 at 03:45 PM

zforbes,

you wrote: I think I'm not yet familiar enough with the roads and turns to venture on my own through TJ.

I recently inquired on this site for information as to how to navigate through TJ. If you search my posts you will be able to find it. My internet connect is bad here in Todos Santos or I would do it.

You will find an excellent post on how to navigate TJ.

It is actually rather easy. Just stay in the right hand lane. Always the right hand lane and follow the signs to Ensenada, that will lead you to the toll road. Others may have even better advice. I just know that it was easy for me. The only difficulty I had was finding the office where one gets the tourist visa's and long term permit for our RV. That too is not hard if you know where you are going and folks here can tell you.

I would highly recommend that you come to Baja. You will love Asuncion and Shari, Juan and Serena will introduce you to the culture in a wonderful way. You will be very safe there.

Travel during the day and you will be fine. Thousands do this every year. There are bad things that happen, they can happen anywhere. Knowledge is power and you have a wonderful resource here with the Nomads.

Iflyfish