BajaNomad - loreto bay, again

loreto bay, again

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Bob and jane - 4-1-2007 at 06:58 AM

There is someone posting information on the "Trip Advisor" forum about Loreto. He calls himself "watchout buyers" and says he was a builder at Loreto Bay, but quit because of mismanagement. His posts are deleted by the forum shortly after they are posted because they "are not travel related."
This is what he posted this morning:
"heres the latest news. peter wardle the new director of the whole project is being sued for sexual harrasment by two mexican women who work for him. these women are also planning to go to immigration to try to get him deported, or arrested. from my experience dealing and working with peter i believe these women. also ken foust who was in charge of custom homes was given his walking papers for no reason. loreto bay owes him over 170,000.00 dollars for back pay, and by mexican law must pay him 3 months wages for letting him go. also about three months ago they hired a consultant to come to loreto to give a 3 day seminar costing over 3 million dollars. this project is being mismanaged, both money , and construction wise. think twice before buing there."
This guy obviously is angry and might have a vendetta. I can't vouch for anything he says. But it is all quite interesting. Just thought I'd share.

vandenberg - 4-1-2007 at 07:19 AM

$ 170.000.00 back pay :?:

Now there's a wothy employee, I say. About his money's worth in gold. :lol:

And a guy that runs a million a day seminar :?:

Tough to get your money's worth at events like that. Wonder if there was free champagne and fish tacos :?:

Maybe they were "NUEVO PESOS" possibly :?:

aquaholic - 4-1-2007 at 09:04 AM

...I see that that particular thread was shut off...think it might be because Loreto Bay is a major advertiser..???

Crusoe - 4-1-2007 at 10:47 AM

What about "Free Speech" against dishonerable developers??????? :mad:

Phil S - 4-1-2007 at 01:48 PM

Whatever happened to "Both Sides of the Story"?????????????????????? Before making judgement, I'd like to know L.B.'s story first!!!!!!

Diver - 4-1-2007 at 01:55 PM

We had an interesting discussion in Loreto with three ladies from the bay area that had joined to buy a place in LB. They had put down money at three different times (almost $100,000) and had come down to see the progress on their place. There was no progress, just vacant land.

These gals either had so much money or so little smarts that they had very little concern. I would guess that many of the buyers are very similar; it's anly money ! Yikes !

.

Phil S - 4-1-2007 at 02:01 PM

Whatever happened to "Both Sides of the Story"?????????????????????? Before making judgement, I'd like to know L.B.'s story first!!!!!!

Don Alley - 4-1-2007 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil S
Whatever happened to "Both Sides of the Story"?????????????????????? Before making judgement, I'd like to know L.B.'s story first!!!!!!

Well, go ahead and ask Loreto Bay what their side of the story is. :rolleyes:

backninedan - 4-1-2007 at 03:04 PM

Yes Phil, please find out the true story for us. All I get are first hand reports from people working there, and they have nothing good to say!!

Minnow - 4-1-2007 at 04:24 PM

The 3 million dollar consulting fee was probably nothing more than a legal way for the powers at be to funnel out money that was intended for construction costs. :lol:

This is one project that Captn. Mike can't even get behind. :lol:

[Edited on 1-4-2007 by Minnow]

Phil S - 4-1-2007 at 07:04 PM

Thanks Don. I think I will. I'm acquainted with Ed Tates replacement, so I think I'll ask him who the heck this guy is. Peter Wardle is a new name to me. You know him by any chance Don? If so, what was his job title? I thought I've met most of them over the years, including those who aren't here anymore.

jerry - 4-1-2007 at 08:38 PM

pure conjecture and b.s i havent seen a single fact only hearsay

capt. mike - 4-2-2007 at 01:33 AM

well.............wait just a gosh durn minute here.

i have said in the past i was neither for nor against it as its not my cup of tea - i like a cheap palapa. where i can get smashed on the patio, torture the neighbors and generally bark at the moon..............

but i support development done right.
well here it is, my confirmation. a friend of mine, pilot, biz man and volunteer (medicos) bought a home there last year. it is gorgous, they delivered the goods from scratch just as promised, he was around periodically during the ops to talk with decorators etc. - bottom line? he says the place is tops.
well good for him, he is rico - if thats what he likes its ok for me.
you can't tell me ALL the people having jobs there are b-tchin!

i suspect a lot of sour grapes about. take em with a grain of tequila with your salt.

Phil S - 4-2-2007 at 11:35 AM

Don Jorge & Mike. Well said!!!!!!! Yes I'm sure there will be sour grapes from many people
Don Alley. I don't know where your finding these "workers" who give you first hand reports, but I usually try & give rides from Nopolo when I go to town with the local workers when they are at the hwy. I haven't had one of them say anything derogatory about his job, or indicate to me he was unhappy.?????????

Hook - 4-2-2007 at 01:35 PM

So, what is the current status of LB? How many homes are completed? What percentage of the 1st phase does that constitute? And how many people are moved in and kicking back?

Personnel comes and goes in any business.............

[Edited on 4-2-2007 by Hook]

capt. mike - 4-3-2007 at 06:39 AM

i flew over it last month low and slow. there were dozens of completed homes and lots of infrastructure. and looked like about twice as much under various stages of building processes.
sales are strong based on the news letter, You can only deliver so fast given the limited labor and material logistics.
compared to Calif ocean view/front property its a bargain i guess even at $250K for a small casita. Those people take the airlines down too, simple connections to Loreto, and don't forget all the Canadians as a customer base. They love it.

Crusoe - 4-3-2007 at 08:25 AM

Someone can correct me if this is wrong information...........I have heard many times, that Mexican Labor Laws require any contactor in the building business who employs more than 5 workers, is required by law to provide one meal a day and decent housing for their employees....Also from what I have heard that the L.B.C. are not a good people to get involved with. Time will cetainly tell!!

vandenberg - 4-3-2007 at 09:50 AM

Mike,
I don't think $ 250.000.00 will do any longer for a small casita

.
The multi million dollar homes they are building across the 9th green from me are a long way from completion. I'm afraid that even the " first phase " is years from completion. Yes, years

. There are workers everywhere, but the building almost seems to go in slow motion. Week after week nothing seems to change, even with tons of guys crawling around. In the mean time our intestines are well scoured with all the dust we're consuming :lol:

capt. mike - 4-3-2007 at 02:06 PM

$250K big samolleans can't get a man a shack at LB??

well, that's peso-flation fer ya!

glad i am a commoner.

wilderone - 4-3-2007 at 02:10 PM

"Week after week nothing seems to change"
looks like they're working on the authentic estuary

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loretobay/page5/

wilderone - 4-3-2007 at 02:14 PM

This just makes me ill.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loretobay/270420249/

Nellie's Place

bajabeachbabe - 4-3-2007 at 03:22 PM

I thought with all this Loreto Bay talk, I would post Nellie's blog link. According to Nellie, there are only two full-time residents of Loreto Bay at the moment. Nellie and another couple. Nellie owns Baja BOSS and Nellie's Place Bar/Hotel and I truly enjoy reading her weekly blog about living in Loreto.

She is (literally) invested in the town. I see her as one of the positive outcomes from the Loreto Bay project.

http://whereintheworldisnellie.blogspot.com/

Don Alley - 4-3-2007 at 03:32 PM

But, they have organic veggies!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/loretobay/116446407/

:lol:

Sallysouth - 4-3-2007 at 06:46 PM

Egads,m y goodness, how much has happened since I was there last,two years ago (three month stay?) in Nopolo.To me it is very sad, but at least I knew how it was back in the 70's and have my memories to refer to for that good ol feeling of days past. And the organic vegis? Irrigated in the brackish waters from LB?No thank you, I know what goes into that water!!Don Alley, do you eat those vegis? :no:

Paula - 4-3-2007 at 09:55 PM

Sally,
I have it on good authority he doesn't eat the veggies.

Don Alley - 4-3-2007 at 10:02 PM

It's going to take a lot more than eco-veggies to win me over to Loreto Bay and the dark side.

Like, uh, maybe Chicken McNuggets! :lol:

elizabeth - 4-4-2007 at 08:28 AM

I'm busy avoiding work, and a complicated budget projection, so I clicked on the link to Nellie's blog where I found the following piece of mind boggling (at least to me) information. It seems Nellie is the agent for the condo project at the former Whale's Inn, where you can get a

"10% pre-construction discount off initial Public Release pricing, which will range from $655,000 for a 2-bedroom condominium to $1,550,000 for a 4-bedroom penthouse..."

What's the current entry level price for Loreto Bay? I was told last month in Loreto that it was $360,000.

tripledigitken - 4-4-2007 at 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
I'm busy avoiding work, and a complicated budget projection, so I clicked on the link to Nellie's blog where I found the following piece of mind boggling (at least to me) information. It seems Nellie is the agent for the condo project at the former Whale's Inn, where you can get a

"10% pre-construction discount off initial Public Release pricing, which will range from $655,000 for a 2-bedroom condominium to $1,550,000 for a 4-bedroom penthouse..."

What's the current entry level price for Loreto Bay? I was told last month in Loreto that it was $360,000.

With that 10% discount, sounds pretty inviting.

Phil S - 4-4-2007 at 08:44 AM

Oh well. I don't see the end to this Nopolo developing. Only the beginning!
Don Alley. I did run into my friend at Loreto Bay, and he said he "couldn't comment" regarding Mr. Wardle!!?? So I guess I won't be getting the "other side of the story for you". Sorry.

David K - 4-4-2007 at 08:56 AM

Everyone looks pretty happy in Nellie's pictures!

Capt. Mike, how about that Jet from Scottsdale?

Seems to be a millionaires' hangout, this Loreto Bay place!

I would like to try the sushi... Phil, can you get me in? :yes:

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 09:17 AM

david the sushi time place was a block notrh a month a go and the food is very good
looks like the developers are tapping in to the rich and famous

flyfishinPam - 4-4-2007 at 10:23 AM

I don't make it a point to pick up hitchhikers but maybe I'd like to pick one or two up and hear their stories. Out of touch comes to mind when I read Nellie's blog. She's a nice lady and running a nice business but does not truly understand the people here, and its the people that make up Loreto. Also I have a hard time believing the guy who posted and gave the story of the hitch-hiker worker at LB.
Hard to imagine an ex-pat in a beefed up diesel $50K+ truck getting the "true story" from a worker from the mainland. Don't you know that they tell you what you want to hear? I have "pizza insurance" and no money, speak the language and have itegrated even though I'm a blonde gringa. I'd like to see if I can get the story out of my own curiosity. Yeah, lots changed in two years in Loreto. I'm really trying to enjoy the simple things like watching "las botas" (our name for the boot-wearing sardinero) net sardinas off the dock and boats shoving off the beach on a glass calm morning. Wonder how long it will last. I have received a loud and clear message that I'm not invited to "the club" but that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that the Loretanos aren't going to be invited either. They will be bought out, moved away out of eyesight, and bussed in to clean the toilets and prune the water demanding introduced ornamentals of Loreto Bay and environs.

You knew it, I knew it...

Dave - 4-4-2007 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
What bothers me is that the Loretanos aren't going to be invited either. They will be bought out, moved away out of eyesight, and bussed in to clean the toilets and prune the water demanding introduced ornamentals of Loreto Bay and environs.

Then why didn't the Loretanos know it?

Are they the most gullible people in the world...or ostriches?

This project could not have begun without their approval nor continue without their support.

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 01:59 PM

did the loretanos really have any say in it?? wasnt it decided by fonature a long time ago??
even if they had i dought if it would have changed anything
loreto was a fishing village . when the people who lived there saw the light of the end of fishing as they knew it and were seeing there kids moving to other places with opertunity and more money was being made.
what choices were there?? stagnate and die or grow with the flow

does anyone really wish the people of loreto would have stoped progress??
if so at what point??when the missonaries came?when the first gringo came with a fishing pole? just after you or i bought our propertys??

Dave - 4-4-2007 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
did the loretanos really have any say in it??

Don't know how it works in Loreto but here in Rosarito building permits are issued by the city.

No permit....No building....No nada.

Progress

Skipjack Joe - 4-4-2007 at 02:29 PM

The point is that that is NOT progress!

Progress is a relative word. What you see as progress I see as destruction.

The links show a series of images of the land being scraped by bulldozers next to others of pelicans and whale sharks. To me that's absurd and offensive. The developers on the other hand see them somehow complimenting one another in a wonderful representation of progress.

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 02:38 PM

a small percentage of the development is going on in the city of loreto
i dont think that the citys development is whats being chastized its the surrounding areas

Don Alley - 4-4-2007 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
did the loretanos really have any say in it??

Don't know how it works in Loreto but here in Rosarito building permits are issued by the city.

No permit....No building....No nada.

Ah, but from what I've seen, a select few Loretanos have been "invited to the party." Or at least given that impression. I've seen them scmoozing with development folks in local restaurants. And these are the people with power to approve permits, although I doubt any official in Loreto ever had the clout to oppose Fonatur by denying building permits.

This is all going to change things. For some, it will be change for the better, for others, change for the worse. Right now, everyone thinks they know which camp they fall into, but time will prove that many of them are wrong.

Paula - 4-4-2007 at 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Then why didn't the Loretanos know it?

Are they the most gullible people in the world...or ostriches?

This project could not have begun without their approval nor continue without their support.

The presidente and the deputados can approve whatever they wish to and grant permits without the backing of the citizens of Loreto. Many locals I've talked with see their cost of living going through the roof, and the new jobs are not causing an increase in their incomes.

tripledigitken - 4-4-2007 at 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
...does anyone really wish the people of loreto would have stoped progress??
if so at what point??when the missonaries came?when the first gringo came with a fishing pole? just after you or i bought our propertys??

Yes I am sure that some wish that no development came to Loreto, or anywhere else in Baja for that matter.

But most have to resign to the fact that it is inevitable. What I take exception to re LB is the railroading of environmental concerns. The apparent lack of longrange planning for the water needs of LB and the city in general.

I see down the road that to accept a solution to the water needs, the probable environmental damage from a poorly planned Desal plant will become "acceptable". As there will be few alternatives.

I don't see LB and other poorly planned developments (the La Paz develpment mentioned recently) in Baja as anything other than a very sad situation for all. Including the smiling and happy owners.

Owning property and seeing paper profits, while these develpments push up prices, is no excuse to accept the probable damage to the native population as well as the sealife that makes Baja so precious.

just my 2 cents

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 03:00 PM

tripaldigetken

we all have conserns about how developments will turn out
you mentioned Loreto Bay project and the development in LaPaz
as poorly planned
could you please tell me of any development in baja that has not been poorly planned??
or does development = poorly planed

tripledigitken - 4-4-2007 at 03:25 PM

Jerry,

I am pleased to here that you have concerns about Loreto Bay along with myself.

Most developments in Baja were poorly planned with regard to environmental issues. That is the very point I am making. Developments don't have to equal bad planning. But they will have to have governmental oversite with regards to environmental issues just as they do stateside IMHO.

Many posters on this board relative to LB have seemed to give them a pass on the water issues and I can't be silent on the issue. Doesn't mean I am anti development. I just want to be able to take my grandaughter out fishing and see the joy on her face when she brings one in. I want her to enjoy Baja like most of us here have.

Isn't that why you want to spend 8 months of the year in Baja? It's why I will build a house and live in Baja too!

Regards,

Ken

[Edited on 4-4-2007 by tripledigitken]

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 04:17 PM

its just seems that the enviromental issues are like a wild card any time anyone is against development be it baja or the USA

i havent seen any facts as to a desalt plant in loreto bay being poorly planned or a threat to the enviroment
as a matter of fact i have seen nothing at all about the facts of the desalt plant that loreto bay in proposing only that they plan on building one

before that it was where is the water coming from??

and then the plants and animals,
this all costs lots of money

soon only the rich and famouse will be able to afford to live there

isnt it nice that we saved it all for them??

Gee, I wonder how they came to be called...

Dave - 4-4-2007 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
The presidente and the deputados can approve whatever they wish to and grant permits without the backing of the citizens of Loreto.

the presidente and the deputados?

Were they appointed by Loreto Bay developers?

Paula - 4-4-2007 at 07:52 PM

Interesting question, Dave.

David K - 4-4-2007 at 07:53 PM

When will the wages catch up to the cost of living? Who's making out with the difference, since fuel and food is not much lower than here (US).

If the typical laborers get paid $3 per hour instead of $1.50, will everything else jump in cost?

Paula - 4-4-2007 at 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
its just seems that the enviromental issues are like a wild card any time anyone is against development be it baja or the USA

i havent seen any facts as to a desalt plant in loreto bay being poorly planned or a threat to the enviroment
as a matter of fact i have seen nothing at all about the facts of the desalt plant that loreto bay in proposing only that they plan on building one

before that it was where is the water coming from??

and then the plants and animals,

this all costs lots of money

soon only the rich and famouse will be able to afford to live there

isnt it nice that we saved it all for them??

Jerry, could it be that these environmental issues are legitimate concerns?

Can you tell us of a development that has not altered the natural environment?

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 10:42 PM

Paula your right everything that changes anything will change everything in the whole world
and nothing that changes will change everything too
E V O L U T I O N

jerry - 4-4-2007 at 10:44 PM

oops it was jerry speaking
everyone loves judi

OMYGAWD!!

Sharksbaja - 4-5-2007 at 12:57 AM

WATABLOG!! :lol:

now where's that barf bag?? :lol:

Now that's what I call.......

Sharksbaja - 4-5-2007 at 01:00 AM

"all-inclusive" :lol:

I've never seen one but maybe I will in Baja. Like the Trophy Trucks. :lol:

Paula - 4-5-2007 at 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
Paula your right everything that changes anything will change everything in the whole world
and nothing that changes will change everything too
E V O L U T I O N

Jerry, you have an interesting take on evolution there. To re-phrase my question, do you know of any development that has improved the environment?

jimgrms - 4-5-2007 at 07:15 AM

Sharks what the heck are those things ???

ha!! she's a real

capt. mike - 4-5-2007 at 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
I thought with all this Loreto Bay talk, I would post Nellie's blog link. According to Nellie, there are only two full-time residents of Loreto Bay at the moment. Nellie and another couple. Nellie owns Baja BOSS and Nellie's Place Bar/Hotel and I truly enjoy reading her weekly blog about living in Loreto.

She is (literally) invested in the town. I see her as one of the positive outcomes from the Loreto Bay project.

http://whereintheworldisnellie.blogspot.com/

Hose Bag for sure! wonder how many ex's she has around......dead or alive? Hope i run in to her sometime in trendy SDL, i'd love to spoof her in person. :lol:

:moon:

Crusoe - 4-5-2007 at 07:25 AM

jimgrms.........Those are called "NICE TOMATOES" in old sailor talk!!! :lol:

jerry - 4-5-2007 at 08:53 AM

Paula
the house im living was part of a development and it sure improves my Enviroment doesnt yours?

flyfishinPam - 4-5-2007 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
When will the wages catch up to the cost of living?

never, and worse yet "credito" is starting to catch on around here

Quote:

Who's making out with the difference, since fuel and food is not much lower than here (US).

small businesmen like me and others in my age group that are Mexican. why do I say this? because the Mexican financial burdens are on the shrinking middle class and most of us own small businesses because those over 30 have a hard time getting a well paying job in a company.

Quote:

If the typical laborers get paid $3 per hour instead of $1.50, will everything else jump in cost?

yes and costs for everything have already skyrocketed here. I'm just a working stiff and can baerly afford the prices. my Mexican neighbors can't afford them at all. so they will eventually sell out and move to a barrio where they'll be bussed in to their jobs wiping the asse$ of the rich and famous.

bienvenidos a Loreto

Bob and Susan - 4-5-2007 at 12:08 PM

:lol:

outstanding pam :lol:

[Edited on 4-5-2007 by Bob and Susan]

backninedan - 4-5-2007 at 12:45 PM

As usual Pam, you hit the bulls eye...

vandenberg - 4-5-2007 at 12:54 PM

You're right Pam.After 20 years our greatest fears realized. Another Cabo in the making. Grrr.... :mad:

David K - 4-5-2007 at 04:38 PM

Thanks for the reply Pam... So, how long before the revolution?

It is the injustice in pay and living standards the gave birth to success by Castro, Mao, Lenin.

Communism is a failed concept. Opportunity available through capitalism is a proven concept, however.

The masses must have an opportunity at making life better for themselves.

[Edited on 4-5-2007 by David K]

Roberto - 4-5-2007 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for the reply Pam... So, how long before the revolution?

It is the injustice in pay and living standards the gave birth to success by Castro, Mao, Lenin.

Communism is a failed concept. Opportunity available through capitalism is a proven concept, however.

The masses must have an opportunity at making life better for themselves.

[Edited on 4-5-2007 by David K]

So, when do you see that coming?

Crusoe - 4-5-2007 at 05:52 PM

David.....With all due respect........I am new to this website. And....I do not understand why you attacked Pam.( this ...How Long Before the Revlotion?) She lives in Loreto and has a bussiness there and is a very positive contributer to this website just like you.......This thread is about LBC......Please explain why you attacked Pam and are being so politcal. Castro?? Lenin?? Mao?? ....I personaly feel after spending alot of time in the area it is a nice place, with alot of very concerned people that would like to see the place not change as much as it has??

flyfishinPam - 4-5-2007 at 06:24 PM

My above responses can be epitomized by the following:

"Sunday, March 18, 2007
The One With The Most Toys Wins"

"The bigger the boys, the bigger the toys. Many things have changed in Loreto over the last year. One that appeals most to me is the increase of nicer cars, boats, motorcycles, and recreational vehicles ....."

".....My friend Darryl arrived this week from California with some of his toys. ... he shows up with a luxury condo on wheels, complete with garage that is more comfortable than my current home. As if the leather interior and plasma TV were not enough, there is a hydrolic lift in the back and he pulls out dirt bikes, ATVs, a home gym, and a steady stream of tools and other equipment. "

"The dune buggy will be particularly fun for the back roads and exploring the endless beaches and wilderness before the new developers put up fences and access is no longer free and open. This is progress and a natural transition for people to protect their properties, but in the meantime, we are lucky enough to be here while it is still the Wild Wild West. "

"The bad *ss Harley was of course my favorite and I can not wait to go for a ride. We will definitely be setting a new standard for Loreto! Darryl is one of us ... the new bred of foreigners in Loreto who want to participate in making this seaside village a prosperous place for everyone by doing business here and fully integrating into the community. A very classy guy. .."

from the blog that's been the subject of some of this discussion.
http://whereintheworldisnellie.blogspot.com/

This is the way the "new breed of foreign immigrants to Loreto" actually thinks. And the price of tortillas is 10 pesos per kilo, a good part of a days wage for a local worker. Yes David, if this continues there will be a revolution. Mexico can be one bad-ass place and I will pick up a machete and fight right with my neighbors and defend them for their right to a dignified life here. You ought to read the history of Mexico sometime, its a really good read.

David K - 4-5-2007 at 06:26 PM

Crusoe, you are misreading me... Pam is a friend, I did not attack her... See where I thanked her for answering my questions?

David K - 4-5-2007 at 06:31 PM

If anything I am attacking the corrupt system that must change to prevent a revolution. I re-read what I posted and your responce and for the life of me can't figure how that is against Pam???

Mao, Lenin, Castro were commie dictators who used situations like we see in Loreto/ Mexico to create revolution... Of course it just took out one form of corruption and replaced it with a far worse one.

Crusoe - 4-5-2007 at 06:54 PM

Sorry David.....I stand corrected.

Don Alley - 4-5-2007 at 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
If anything I am attacking the corrupt system that must change to prevent a revolution. I re-read what I posted and your responce and for the life of me can't figure how that is against Pam???

Mao, Lenin, Castro were commie dictators who used situations like we see in Loreto/ Mexico to create revolution... Of course it just took out one form of corruption and replaced it with a far worse one.

I don't see the problem being a "corrupt system." I see the problem as a small handful of specific individuals...greedy beyond belief, cloaked in lies, pigs who see nothing here but an opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of a marvelous natural and social environment.

And I for one don't see a web site that glorifies these people as "one of the positive outcomes from the Loreto Bay project," but just more septic waste draining from that pustulent sore.

Paula - 4-5-2007 at 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
My above responses can be epitomized by the following:

"Sunday, March 18, 2007
The One With The Most Toys Wins"

"The bigger the boys, the bigger the toys. Many things have changed in Loreto over the last year. One that appeals most to me is the increase of nicer cars, boats, motorcycles, and recreational vehicles ....."

".....My friend Darryl arrived this week from California with some of his toys. ... he shows up with a luxury condo on wheels, complete with garage that is more comfortable than my current home. As if the leather interior and plasma TV were not enough, there is a hydrolic lift in the back and he pulls out dirt bikes, ATVs, a home gym, and a steady stream of tools and other equipment. "

"The dune buggy will be particularly fun for the back roads and exploring the endless beaches and wilderness before the new developers put up fences and access is no longer free and open. This is progress and a natural transition for people to protect their properties, but in the meantime, we are lucky enough to be here while it is still the Wild Wild West. "

"The bad *ss Harley was of course my favorite and I can not wait to go for a ride. We will definitely be setting a new standard for Loreto! Darryl is one of us ... the new bred of foreigners in Loreto who want to participate in making this seaside village a prosperous place for everyone by doing business here and fully integrating into the community. A very classy guy. .."

from the blog that's been the subject of some of this discussion.
http://whereintheworldisnellie.blogspot.com/

This is the way the "new breed of foreign immigrants to Loreto" actually thinks. And the price of tortillas is 10 pesos per kilo, a good part of a days wage for a local worker. Yes David, if this continues there will be a revolution. Mexico can be one bad-ass place and I will pick up a machete and fight right with my neighbors and defend them for their right to a dignified life here. You ought to read the history of Mexico sometime, its a really good read.

Pam, I couldn't read the blog-- the pictures are worth thousands of words-- hats off to you for wading through...

When the day comes, I hope to be right out there on front line with you.

David K - 4-5-2007 at 09:58 PM

Well... I think it is corruption because there are laws not being enforced and the Mexican constitution is supposed to be patterned after ours.

However, it is a far different society having been established by Spain with some French involvement than those established by the British.

Former British colonies: U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand...

Former Spanish colonies: Mexico, El Salvador, Chile, Colombia...

Former French colonies: Haiti, Algeria, Chad, Cameroon...

Which group of nations do you feel safer in or have more rights and (legal) opportunity?

[Edited on 9-15-2008 by David K]

elizabeth - 4-5-2007 at 10:01 PM

Quote:

This is really sick....
I'm out there with Pam and Paula....

[Edited on 4-6-2007 by elizabeth]

David K - 4-5-2007 at 10:21 PM

Yup... agreed... I want it the way it was when I first came to Baja... But, that's not dealing with reality, is it?

Until Mr. Peabody builds a Way Back machine, I will continue to stay away from this 'new' Baja and seek out the places far from pavement where the ranch people welcome you into their homes without reservation and you are made to feel like family.... and even beyond that to where there are no people at all. Baja Nomad, all the way!

But, it is fun to join up with others who feel the same way, as well... oncve in a while!

Stickers - 4-6-2007 at 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Former British colonies: U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand...

Former Spanish colonies: Mexico, El Salvador, Chile, Columbia...

Former French colonies: Haiti, Algeria, Chad, Cameroon...

Which group of nations do you feel safer in or have more rights and (legal) opportunity?

David you forgot to mention quite a few former British colonies in Africa, Central America, the Caribbean the East and the Mid East that didn't work out so well. They sure cleaned up India too. : :spingrin:

Skipjack Joe - 4-6-2007 at 05:18 AM

Don 't forget South Africa.

And the Israel/Palestine debacle is England's doing.

The English 'successes' were lands that were largely unsettled or had small endemic populations like the Maori natives of New Zealand and the Aborigines of Australia.

Osprey - 4-6-2007 at 07:23 AM

Recent La Paz newspaper articles:
1. The San Bruno development by a Spanish group will be no less than a 5 billion dollar investment.
2. Fonatur says it is scaling back the Sea of Cortez project from 18 new marinas to 9. Since Puerto Escondido is the keystone they will begin to develope there the end of 2007 (576 million dollars - 3,200 jobs).
I think marinas in the Loreto area would be less problematic than those on the Pacific or the one they plan to build here in La Ribera. Puerto Los Cabos (Modelo and Coke $) is still having problems, Santa Rosallilita is inoperable and I believe Puerta La Salina still has to be constantly dredged.
I'm not against the big development here; I'm afraid they will prove to be the "land pimps" they were at Lighthouse Point Estates where 500 lots have been sold and only 6 or 7 have been built -- THIS OVER 6 YEARS AFTER THE DEVELOPERS PROMISED INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS STILL INVISIBLE AT THAT SITE. These folks are really good sales people but I don't think they have deep pockets and I fear they will build 1/2 a marina, 1/3 a hotel, 1/5th a golf course and leave the beach in a shambles like/with Fonatur.

It is a DISEASE

djh - 4-6-2007 at 07:42 AM

A diesease that makes blind and deaf those infected. It also weakens the heart and some say even the soul...

It has lead to millions of human deaths.

The disease is highly contagious.... one can be a carrier for years before symptoms occur.

It is called AFFLUENZA!

djh

(sorry about the bold & underline, I only meant to to that to AFFLUENZA.... can't seem to change it.... oh well, you get the idea....)

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam

"Sunday, March 18, 2007
The One With The Most Toys Wins"

"The bigger the boys, the bigger the toys. Many things have changed in Loreto over the last year. One that appeals most to me is the increase of nicer cars, boats, motorcycles, and recreational vehicles ....."

... the new bred of foreigners in Loreto who want to participate in making this seaside village a prosperous place for everyone by doing business here and fully integrating into the community. A very classy guy. .."

This is the way the "new breed of foreign immigrants to Loreto" actually thinks. And the price of tortillas is 10 pesos per kilo, a good part of a days wage for a local worker. Yes David, if this continues there will be a revolution. Mexico can be one bad-ass place and I will pick up a machete and fight right with my neighbors and defend them for their right to a dignified life here. You ought to read the history of Mexico sometime, its a really good read.

Skeet/Loreto - 4-6-2007 at 08:56 AM

The "Rape of Loreto" by Ugly Americans and Canadians.

How sad to watch it unfold, brought on by being a most Beautifull Place, to become a Ugly Place full of "Big Boys and Their Toys", Druggies, Cheaters!

The "Love of Money", cannot bring Happiness to the Heart, it is done by the feeling of Love and "Self-Worth".

Anon The Preacher

flyfishinPam - 4-6-2007 at 01:24 PM

Hi there, I was a little afraid of what I'd see after writing what I did. Yes I do mean it that I will defend the people as I've set my roots here after a life of being transient. One thing my Mexican husband made me realize was that if we were to ever re-locate once this place becomes unbearable, we will never find jobs because of our age (42 and 43). He explained to me that we'd absolutely have to be self employed. After ten years of being self employed that doesn't bother me anyway as I have lots of talents and skills and so does he. But our neighbors aren't so lucky. Most don't have beyond a 6th grade education, and even that 6th grade education at the public schools here doesn't amount to much when kids are admitted one hour late and dismissed two to three hours early every day. Yes there are laws in place already that can put the reins on this whole issue but the people that have the power to change things...the people... don't know and understand them. It is our job to enlighten them. Print up the article I posted about three weeks ago in the "Baja News" section about the development to take place here. Maybe if all of us print up a copy and pass it on, start a discussions with localsa as to what they think. Get them thinking. Here are some sample questions to ask:

If they sell out where will they go? (refers to selling their lands)
If they stay in the Loreto area where do they think that they will they afford to relocate themselves?
If they leave the area where will they go?
How will they make a living?

this doesn't even touch on the water issue.

I was for the development at first, before I knew how grand a scale it was to become and before I really understood the water issue. Nedless to say, I am very against it now.

I'm really lookng forward to "fishing season" when the tourists that come here are from this planet!

Phil S - 4-6-2007 at 02:28 PM

DAvid K. Sorry took so long to get back to your question as to whether I can get you in for "sushi" at Nellies bar. You bet David. Nellie is becoming a friend over the past week before she headed to Phoenix several days ago. Love the bar. Great second story overlooking the malecon. She has several motel rooms also. Don't particularly like the direction her "blog" is going, but I have met her. And she is "sharp" lady. She will be very successful there. Baja Boss has it all!!!!
Capt George. Give Nellie a chance mia amigo. Meet her, then decide for youself. I can see where some "males" won't like her because she does know what she's doing, and will succeed at it. But George. Drop by & say hello, and give her a chance. PHil S

elizabeth - 4-6-2007 at 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by flyfishinPam
I was for the development at first, before I knew how grand a scale it was to become and before I really understood the water issue. Nedless to say, I am very against it now.

I've been following Loreto Bay since the beginning because I think it's a disaster, both socially and environmentally. I have also followed your comments. I think it took great courage on your part to change your opinion based upon changes in your knowledge of what was going on. It is also a big deal for you, with your business, to voice these opinions.

bancoduo - 4-6-2007 at 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phil S
DAvid K. Sorry took so long to get back to your question as to whether I can get you in for "sushi" at Nellies bar. You bet David. Nellie is becoming a friend over the past week before she headed to Phoenix several days ago. Love the bar. Great second story overlooking the malecon. She has several motel rooms also. Don't particularly like the direction her "blog" is going, but I have met her. And she is "sharp" lady. She will be very successful there. Baja Boss has it all!!!!
Capt George. Give Nellie a chance mia amigo. Meet her, then decide for youself. I can see where some "males" won't like her because she does know what she's doing, and will succeed at it. But George. Drop by & say hello, and give her a chance. PHil S
Do the motel rooms rent by the hour?

vandenberg - 4-6-2007 at 04:07 PM

" And she is sharp lady " Chinese rubbing off on you

bajabeachbabe - 4-6-2007 at 04:33 PM

I knew when I posted Nellie’s blog link I was going to possibly stir up the pot. Wow, was that an understatement. Ironically, I found her blog while googling to see if Herzon and his father had a website. Nellie’s blog showed up as she wrote about Herzon in one of her postings.

I too was disturbed by the show of “Affluenza” that is displayed in the blog. (My poor husband had to listen to me rant and rave about it.) It does make us look like ugly Americans.

When I mentioned that I thought that Nellie and her endeavors were one of the positive outcomes from the Loreto Bay project, it was because I know how much courage it takes to start a business, much less, move to a foreign country and then start a business from scratch. (Right Pam?)

Because of her business, she will need to integrate into the community or she will fail. I am sure she realizes that. Right now much of her business is coming from the Loreto Bay community. Once Loreto Bay is built out with shops, there will be less need for the residents to even venture into town. They will be able to spend all their time in their Loreto Bay Biosphere.

Don Alley - 4-6-2007 at 04:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
...Because of her business, she will need to integrate into the community or she will fail....

That's the old way of doing things, I suspect.

But I think some are part of creating a new paradigm, where they strive to integrate into a new community of wealthy expats, not longer term residents. I believe Fonatur, Singlar and API are playing this game, where not only the native Loretanos, but the middle class expats, fall below their radar and below their price fixing. So the prices of many goods and services, the prices of commodities such as water and power, and the price of access to much of the land and water-for recreation, for work or for homes-are set to maximize revenues from the new wealthier foreigners at the cost of marginalizing everyone else.

Phil S - 4-6-2007 at 06:29 PM

bancoduo???????? If you know something about Nellie that I haven't heard about yet, I think it would be proper & less liabeless to share what you know, rather than "imply" something about her hotels activities. But then again, I might be reading something into your response that wasn't meant what I read????????????????????????????????????
Or was your question in regards to your needs of a 15 minute hotel!!!!!!????? If you would like, I could call and inquire for you, as I don't remember he saying anything other than all night rates. I am aware of them, as I took a visiting friend from Eugene Ore by, to inspect the rooms for his next visit to Loreto. I think he needed something close to Auggies where he wouldn't have to walk so far to the Oasis after an evenings entertainment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vandenberg - 4-6-2007 at 06:36 PM

Phil
The way she talked about Augie's staggering drunken customers,she probably won't rent a room to one

bancoduo - 4-6-2007 at 06:53 PM

Just remembering my Asian military experiences. Meant a lot of Asian girls named Nellie. Kinda like Rosies in " MASH".No offence.

PS. How much are the rooms.

Phil S - 4-7-2007 at 06:38 AM

I believe she said $65.00 a night. Right on the malecon & close to downtown centre. I don't know about staying at a motel that has a bar on premises for myself. But for a nights drinking, convenience & closeness is important.

flyfishinPam - 4-7-2007 at 08:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabeachbabe
...Because of her business, she will need to integrate into the community or she will fail....

Originally posted by Don Alley
That's the old way of doing things, I suspect.

yes that is the old way of doing things. I came here just when the "no mas mordida" campaign started. Fortunately for me because I had very few finances just a barely established seasonal business. This will never be repeated here again. It will take at least a million dollars now, maybe more.

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley
But I think some are part of creating a new paradigm, where they strive to integrate into a new community of wealthy expats, not longer term residents. I believe Fonatur, Singlar and API are playing this game, where not only the native Loretanos, but the middle class expats, fall below their radar and below their price fixing. So the prices of many goods and services, the prices of commodities such as water and power, and the price of access to much of the land and water-for recreation, for work or for homes-are set to maximize revenues from the new wealthier foreigners at the cost of marginalizing everyone else.

please excuse me for jumping in before reading even the post below which one this was quoted from. There's a lot I cannot say so this is difficult for me but you have hit the target, bullseye. This is why the ramp in town is in such bad shape and why the ramp at PE won't go down in price. At some point nobody will want to fish from a panga. The netters won't be able to catch sardinas from the floating dock. The independents will be working for one of the big outfitters on one of their big boats and they will remain on contract with no benefits and a low wage. The big guys have money and they can play right into the old system before the program for which I just mentioned started. They play dirty with all of us. The people will lose, bigtime.

[Edited on 4-7-2007 by flyfishinPam]

[Edited on 4-7-2007 by flyfishinPam]

Pescador - 4-7-2007 at 04:59 PM

Friday, April 6, an article in USA Today about Low-Key Loreto drawing more Americans. I sent a response to jeclark@USAToday.com to suggest he look over this website to get better information

bancoduo - 4-7-2007 at 05:31 PM

You did a good thing, but you have to realize that these people are spoon feed $$$ to print garbage for vested interests. although, It never hurts to try.

capn.sharky - 4-7-2007 at 08:58 PM

As I have stated over and over, I am against Loreto Bay and have been from day one. I still believe that will walk out before finishing everything with their pockets full. As for a free room and one meal a day---that is not what I am seeing in Loreto when I pass little one room houses with 20 workers cramed in it like sardines. I too, have talked with the workers of Loreto Bay and they tell me things much different from whats written in some of the above posts. They are there to earn money to feed their families---period. There are no benefits and round trip airplane tickets for the lower paid ones. Many are not paid on time by the sub contractors that LB uses to isolate themselves from the problems. Additionally, there is not enough water to go around in Loreto. However, after the first good hurricane or earthquake, that might not still be a problem. Finally, how did Loreto Bay get those signs posted along the highway. They are government signs---paid for by Mexican citizens. Nope, someone is getting a little payoff here and there and they could very well be working for Fonatur. Sorry, Phil, but I think the construction is very poor and I wouldn't live in one of their units at 10% of the going price. By the way, does anyone think Loreto Bay is just like a typical Mexican pueblo? That is what they advertise.

Pescador - 4-8-2007 at 02:02 PM

You know that everyone that goes to Baja is looking for a different experience. I quit going to Loreto 5 or 6 years ago when I noticed that the prices were reaching new standards that were barely short of Cabo. But in the same way that I am happy that Cabo literally pulls off the type of tourists that I deplore (in for 5 days and try to cram all of into a short time and act like an ugly american or worse), actually I find some relief in the fact that Loreto has left other areas of the baja relatively untouched. If this grand experiment somehow fails due to lack of water or lack of any of the other ingredients that make this all happen, then maybe some of the "out of the mainstream places" may keep some of their original charm. I love it when I can go out to eat and then walk around town and not run into "those Norte Americanos" who somehow change the very atmoshphere of the places they visit.

Julie - 4-8-2007 at 02:08 PM

If one of those staggering, drunken customers was at Halloween and a Pirate, it might have been me! OOPS

Cypress - 4-8-2007 at 02:18 PM

Augies is a laid back, neat place. Good food, good people!:tumbleidn't see any staggering drunks, my vision might have been impaired.

Phil S - 4-8-2007 at 03:26 PM

Capt. Sharky. You've brought up a question in your statement about Loreto Bay uses sub contractors to"insulate themselve from problems" ???
I guess I've been out of the loop of "contractors/developers". I always thought that anyone who is a developer uses "contractors" to build for them. I wasn't aware it was for "shielding them from problems???????
Maybe your coming from the laborers point of view. I guess I'm sitting in then C.E.O. seat most of my life. Help me out here by what you mean, insulate them selves from problems. Thanks.

Sharksbaja - 4-8-2007 at 04:58 PM

Blogs are something that are tailored to the specific audience they target and the author fails to realize that it should address a larger more dynamic crowd. But then, how many Loretans have internet. By addressing the elitist common ground so many wealthy visitors share it selfishly entices those folks and more. The reality is that Loreto and it's residents don't like or care for the noisy toys and drinking habits many gringos think is so cute.
Kinda like a new nudie bar going in, sure it attracts biz but would most of us want one next door. Baja has it's own set of seekers. I can empathize with the people of Loreto. Their culture and way of life is at stake.

A blog such as Nellies' undermines the attempt to build a harmonious Loreto. Water is one major issue constantly batted around, but there are many ramifications. I'm glad to see that people like Pam see the other side of the coin. It is so easy for these huge projects to overshadow concerns put forth by residents. Their spin machine just spews out another press release with more hollow promises or spiel.

Quite frankly I doubt the people of Loreto carry much clout with regards to the project(s). The decisions are being made by those with a vested interest, that is, money, not a care for the environment, culture or way-of-life.

tigerdog - 4-9-2007 at 09:29 AM

OMIGOD the "beautiful people" have arrived. Loreto is doomed.

I remember when it happened in Cabo. One day we were all driving around in "Cabo" cars, you know the kind I mean, and no one cared too much about what you had or how you looked.

The next thing we knew the streets were filling up with fancy cars driven by tanning-bed afficionados with perfect white smiles who looked down their noses at us. "Jeez," growled one of the oldtimers as a bleached blonde Californian drove by in a new convertible, "the beautiful people are here. Time to move on." And that's how I've thought of them ever since.

The Cabo Tomatoes were quickly infiltrated by the new breed. I remember one of them complained bitterly about not being allowed to post a bulletin of some sort in a prominent place at Aramburos. "After all," she sniffed piously, we ARE the backbone of this community!"

Gee, I always thought it was the working stiffs in the barrios who were the backbone of the community, not a gringa living in the Pedregal. But what do I know?

I'm all for progress in any way that is actually good for the Mexican people, but I fear what is happening in Loreto may not be that kind of progress. Not if Nellie's blog is any example.

As for being a "classy guy", Dave may be one but he'd have to show me a lot more than a bunch of expensive toys to convince me of that. I'm much more impressed by substance than by flash. I've never met Pam (maybe I'll get lucky some day?), but to me she's the one who demonstrates class, along with the generous and open hearted people who have populated the Baja for generations...

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

capn.sharky - 4-9-2007 at 10:05 AM

"Help me out here by what you mean, insulate them selves from problems. Thanks." Phil, its isn't always true that all developers use contractors for the building....many are both. By insulating, I mean, not paying employees on time, not keeping promises made to Loreto regarding waste management and water problems and not treating employees with respect regarding housing etc. I too, sat in the owners seat of my business for over 40 years. I am glad that I no longer have to do that. And, yes, I have only talked with the employees at Loreto Bay. I do not wish to talk with the owner/developers. I am sorry that we seem to be at the opposite ends of the stick on this issue and hope that you do not take any of this as a personal affront. It is not meant to be so.

Paula - 4-9-2007 at 10:20 AM

I think you've got it right, tigerdog
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