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March Today

bajajudy - 5-10-2007 at 06:32 AM

Greenpeace es una organización ecologista internacional, económica y políticamente independiente, que utiliza la no violencia y la confrontación creativa para
denunciar los problemas ambientales globales y para proponer soluciones necesarias para un futuro verde y en paz.
Por medio de la presente, invitamos a su respetable
medio de comunicación a la marcha:

En la que participarán ciudadanos de San José del Cabo, con el fin de defender la
reserva ecológica de Baja California Sur, y de solicitarle a Luis Armando Díaz,
presidente municipal de Los Cabos, BCS., que trabaje en favor de la protección
del medio ambiente y de la comunidad.
Agradecemos la asistencia y la cobertura de su medio a esta actividad.
Favor de enviar fotógrafa(o) y camarógrafo, pues habrá imagen.

La cita es este JUEVES 10 DE MAYO A LAS 10:00 a.m.
en la planta de tratamiento de aguas residuales de Fonatur
(frente a la estación de bomberos), en el CENTRO de SAN JOSÉ
DE LOS CABOS, en Baja California Sur.
Para mayor información, comunicarse con Cecilia Navarro (en el DF) al 5530 2165 ext.
220 o al 04455 5172 9869 o con Raúl Estrada (en Los Cabos) al 045 55 2746 3236 o visitar
la página www.greenpeace.org.mx. Imágenes disponibles.

GreenPieces

MrBillM - 5-10-2007 at 08:21 AM

As much as I dislike the French, I have to say that their method of dealing with Greenpeace years ago was the most effective and satisfying I had seen then or have seen since.

Minnow - 5-10-2007 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
As much as I dislike the French, I have to say that their method of dealing with Greenpeace years ago was the most effective and satisfying I had seen then or have seen since.

Bill, I could not agree more. :lol:

Seems that the Greenlosers found a cause to fight though. The article says that the March/Protest is going to be at the treatment plant. They want to raise concerns about where all the effluent is going to be discharged. The Marina does not have permission to use the city's plant. So what are they going to do, discharge all of the waste into the marina? YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paulina edit: Punctuation :lol:

Thanks Paulina

[Edited on 10-5-2007 by Minnow] :lol:

[Edited on 10-5-2007 by Minnow]

March/Greenpeace

Cameron - 5-10-2007 at 09:54 AM

Quote:

I may be banned/kicked off the board for this one, but *** .*** ******, *** *** ** *******
When the French bombed the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand, they killed an innocent man (a photographer) who was guilty of nothing more than taking pictures!
AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE ORGANIZATION'S POLITICS, BUT HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU SAY THAT MURDER IS "EFFECTIVE AND SATISFYING???
Greenpeace is a non-violent organization dedicated to the preservation of our planet ant the species living on it. Sure, they've done some stupid stuff, but do their members deserve to be killed for it? The French agents held responsible for the Rainbow Warrior bombing were charged with arson, conspiracy to commit arson, willful damage and murder. Are these the kind of people you want to be?
How about the civil-rights advocates killed in Mississippi in the 1960's? Did they deserve to die too?

Your post makes me sick. :barf:

"Effective and satisfying.." my a**.
Cameron

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by Hose A]

Ok Minnow....

Paulina - 5-10-2007 at 09:57 AM

If you're going to use my name in your editing process, let's get it right then! :lol:

"Affluent": Not sure that is the word you wanted to use in that text.

adjective 1. having an abundance of wealth, property, or other material goods; prosperous; rich: an affluent person.
2. abounding in anything; abundant.
3. flowing freely: an affluent fountain.

–noun 4. a tributary stream. (maybe you were thinking along this line? A tributary stream of waste?
5. an affluent person: a luxurious resort appealing to young affluents.

Then theres "citiies". Edit out one i.

Replace "waist" with waste.

You've got a good start, though! :light:

Paulina>*)))><

Edit: I am not taking sides within this debate, just turning on a light bulb where needed.

[Edited on 10-5-2007 by Paulina]

Bob and Susan - 5-10-2007 at 10:00 AM

wow...watch out Bruce R Leech...someone is having a BAD day :lol:

Go Greenpeace!

Skipjack Joe - 5-10-2007 at 10:22 AM

Thank God they have the cojones to do something about this situation. I'm tired of hearing the fatalists on this board talk about the 'inevitable'.

Minnow - 5-10-2007 at 10:27 AM

Cameron, didn't the French give everyone ample warning about what was going to happen. Kinda reminds me of the guy who would not leave Mt. St. Helens. Anyone remember his name. It was historical. Forewarned is fair warned.

Hook - 5-10-2007 at 10:31 AM

I find it amusing that some of the same people in this post who acknowledge and rail against the corruption and shortsightedness of the Mexican Government would criticize one of the few organizations that has the cojones to go up against them.

Greenpeace aint perfect, but I see few other organizations walking the walk when it comes to the disaster that is Mexican conservation at the federal level.

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by Hook]

Minnow - 5-10-2007 at 10:33 AM

two wrongs don't make a right. :lol:

Greenpeace/Bombing

Cameron - 5-10-2007 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
Cameron, didn't the French give everyone ample warning about what was going to happen. Kinda reminds me of the guy who would not leave Mt. St. Helens. Anyone remember his name. It was historical. Forewarned is fair warned.

Do you think the French put out a press release? "We are about to commit a Terrorist act, bombing an unarmed ship in a neutral port, crewed by an unarmed crew who espouse a non-violent philosophy. Please stand by while we murder this civilian and sink the aforementioned ship." Please!
It took the French government 20 years to admit to their "official" role in the bombing, and the perpetrators were charged and convicted.
"Forewarned is fair warned."??? You mean like when Osama Bin Bonehead sent out videotapes warning of attacks against America? Or when the KKK burned crosses all over the South chanting "****** go home"???
What the French did was a Terrorist action. They targeted civilians who posed no direct threat to them while they were in a neutral/3rd party country.
Minnow, are you actually saying you approve of what the French did? Seriously?
:?:

Cameron

Hook - 5-10-2007 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
two wrongs don't make a right. :lol:

I think Patrick Henry and George Washington would disagree. Some ideals are worth civil disobedience, in the face of intransigence.

Developments with no adequate plans for sewage treatment or water supply.....where have we heard this before?

aquaholic - 5-10-2007 at 10:53 AM

...the guy on Mt St Helens was Harry Truman...kinda hard to forget the old guy and his refusal to leave the blast zone...

Giving a damn in another land

Sharksbaja - 5-10-2007 at 11:37 AM

It is interesting to see the armchair pundits jump on this one. You can slam GP all you want but their mission(s) sometimes may interest you. It takes more than armchair wizardry to stage an event like this in order to gain mass public opinion. It shames me that a few can't see the forest thru the trees. Or can't they, really?
Be honest now....how many of you actually knew this was in the works? I'd be surprised if anyone else here was informed or knew this was coming.
You have to ask youself this question: "Do I really know and understand what I can do to help dissuade distructive development in pristine or fragile areas?"
You may call it (protest march)anything you like but it raises the brow of many "interested" parties. Most importantly, politicians. So, bring it on GP.
Maybe I don't agree or understand all they do and where they do it, but I 'm happy there are organizations that focus on the bigger picture, our future on planet Earth.

btw, sometimes people hear the cries but only if they listen closely. Some have good ears but hear nothing. I thank all our brothers and sisters who work to defend great things for all of us. Keep writing letters. It does matter and have signifigance.

Loreto may be next.

capitolkat - 5-10-2007 at 12:53 PM

I'm kind of a green guy but don't favor those who subtly use misinformation and violence while holding themselves out as the warriors for ecologic practices. I used to support them until the Rainbow warrior incident and then I took a look- and here's what I found

trying to disrupt native legally approved whale hunts- cooperating with radical environmental groups Ruckus Society and Black Bloc anarchists to disrupt a corporate meeting in Dallas in 2002, (Ruckus is known for their use of masks, assuming aliases, police confrontation, street blokades) all of which were used in the WTO demonstations here in DC where the Greenpeace folks blended in with the Radical folks. And Green peace has been involved in the destruction of genetically engineered grain- approved for feed in Britian- because they disagreed with the government decision- causing loss of hundreds of thousand of dollars to the owners.-- that seemed a little undemocratic to me-- but they know better than you and me.

Or when they ran a film about the helpless seal pups being clubbed and suffering - only to find out later during testimory from the seal hunter before the Canadian parliament that the had been paid by Greenpeace to NOT kill the seal with the first blow.

That was enough for me when they staged the suffering of an animal to accomplish a political goal.

There are others - the loss of the US tuna fleet due to concerns over dolphins when extruding nets are 99% safe for dolphins but Greenpeace continues to rail about the loss of Dolphins to tuna nets- so what happens- the tuna fishing goes to Japan, China, Poland because Greenpeace distorts the facts to the American public while the rest of the fishing world gets a pass.

I'm for preserving our planet- but give me an honest organization over Greenpeace.

Norm

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 01:05 PM

Translated Version of http://www.greenpeace.org/mexico/news/greenpeace-demanda-al-...
Address: http://66.218.71.231/language/translation/translatedPage.php...

Turns out that he Puerto Los Cabos is illegal according to Greenpeace.

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by BajaNomad]

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 01:33 PM

Here's another:

Translated Version of http://noticias.prodigy.msn.com/nacional/articulo.aspx?cp-do...
Address:http://66.218.71.231/language/translation/translatedPage.php?tt=url&text=http%3a//noticias.prodigy.msn.com/nacional/articulo.aspx%3fcp-doc umentid=4721514&lp=es_en&.intl=us&fr=yfp-t-501

Sharksbaja - 5-10-2007 at 01:57 PM

Oh yes Cat, it's true, their tactics have been on the dark side on many issues. It's too bad this giant has so many tentacles. Their reputation is mired with extreme stunts., many of which put people off, including myself.
It's a shame it reached those levels. I think they missed the boat with many issues but they are still a viable and powerful entity.

Here is a little primer regarding tuna & the
Marine Mammal Protection Act?

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/99winter/tuna.htm
To me that hurt many Americans right at the core. So comprehensive they ended up so short in foresight.

wilderone - 5-10-2007 at 03:00 PM

That article will tell you that the final blow to the tuna industry had nothing to do with Greenpeace. Read about the cheaper overseas canneries, tariffs on tuna imports, the Magansun Act of 1976, resulting in US tuna boat siezures in foreign countries. And it was the International Marine Mammal Project, one of the original projects sponsored by Earth Island Institute, that organised a campaign, including a consumer boycott of tuna, in order to urge U.S. tuna companies to end the practice of intentionally chasing and netting dolphins with purse seine nets, and to adopt "Dolphin Safe" fishing practices to prevent the drowning of dolphins in tuna nets. In the two years that followed this agreement, the number of boats in San Diego's tuna fleet dropped from thirty to eight.
An estimated 7 million dolphins have been killed by this fishing method over the past four decades, the largest marine mammal kill in history. Since the adoption of IMMP's "Dolphin Safe" standards, reported dolphin deaths in the ETP have dropped from 80-100,000 annually in the late 1980's, to under 3,000 dolphins annually today.
That is success of a hard-fought battle by many many organizations, beginning 35 years ago. How can you deny that? How else could the dolphin fight mankind's stupidity?

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by wilderone]

Excrement Occurs

MrBillM - 5-10-2007 at 04:29 PM

When someone goes in Harm's way, they should expect to be HARMED. Somewhat akin to the Students BAD Judgement at Kent State. It's too bad, but it happens.

Referring to the Three deaths in Mississippi, that too, wasn't justified, BUT the two white "Civil Rights" workers, as members of the U.S. Communist party (FACT) were down there to stir the Hornet's nest. Literature written by their organization made their motives clear. The voting drive was a vehicle to create unrest which could be used for political purposes. When you stick your head into the Tiger's mouth, be prepared to be bitten.

DENNIS - 5-10-2007 at 04:40 PM

Didn't the bulk of the tuna fleet move to American Samoa? Due to that relocation, I'm told that if you approach Am. Samoa by water on the downwind side, you can smell it long before you can see it.
How appetizing.

David K - 5-10-2007 at 05:35 PM

Maybe the French were getting even for all the coral reef desrtuction by the Rainbow Warrior when it smashed through the stuff in French Polynesia on some protest venture???

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Maybe the French were getting even for all the coral reef desrtuction by the Rainbow Warrior when it smashed through the stuff in French Polynesia on some protest venture???

I think you guys are all missing the point. You are all hung up on what you percieve as the wrongs that Greenpeace has done.
The point is they are down there at Puerto Los Cabos taking an action to prevent the illegal distruction of the estuary.
And David if you look on the web a little you will see that they have been quite active prior to the current march.
At this point they are physically preventing the opening of the channel to the sea before it's too late.
Fonatur is planning something like 20 more of these marinas all up and down Baja. The next one might be at your favorite spot. Then what are you going to do?

Bob and Susan - 5-10-2007 at 06:04 PM

minnow
the guy who wouldn't leave mt st helens was harry truman...he's dead

ht.JPG - 7kB

Bruce R Leech - 5-10-2007 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cameron

Quote:

"Effective and satisfying.." my a**.
Cameron

[Edited on 5-10-2007 by Hose A]

Greenpeace is a non-violent organization
:lol:

THAT IS NOT THE WAY THE LOOK TO ME

Paula - 5-10-2007 at 06:34 PM

I wonder how you folks who have turned this thread into a discussion of the pros and cons of Greenpeace feel about the development and marina at Puerto Los Cabos? It might be interesting to discuss the project rather than the politics.

David K - 5-10-2007 at 06:40 PM

Thanks Mike... I know what Greenpeace is... I used to get their newsletter, etc.

The methodolgy is what I have a problem with... sit ins are just soooo SIXTIES!

The harbor is IN, the entrance channel just needs to be opened. What I am asking is WHY wait for all that work to get done and then protest?

Like what happened with the Mitsubishi Salt Works proposal for San Ignacio Lagoon, action should start BEFORE any construction begins... Far easier to change minds when all the investment $$$ hasn't taken place... you think???

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks Mike... I know what Greenpeace is... I used to get their newsletter, etc.

The methodolgy is what I have a problem with... sit ins are just soooo SIXTIES!

The harbor is IN, the entrance channel just needs to be opened. What I am asking is WHY wait for all that work to get done and then protest?

Like what happened with the Mitsubishi Salt Works proposal for San Ignacio Lagoon, action should start BEFORE any construction begins... Far easier to change minds when all the investment $$$ hasn't taken place... you think???

Ya, but didn't the "sit ins" in the 60's bring an end to a war? Pretty powerful tool I'd say.
I was suggesting some web research about the actions that GP took before or early on in the project. They have filed all kinds of legal protests stating that the project is illegal and maybe some of those will bear fruit... IF they can prevent that channel from being cut. But you know the developers are trying to forge ahead so that it will be too late to stop. So the "Sit in" is a last ditch effort to prevent that channel from being cut.
Sure this marina might be a foregone conclusion but like I posted earlier... "It ain't over till it's over"
And besides this is only round one in the systematic distruction of Baja in it's natural state.
Maybe we can get Green Peace to prevent the Colonet megaport and desert rail line!

[Edited on 5-11-2007 by fishbuck]

Mexitron - 5-10-2007 at 07:24 PM

I'd be quietly busy buying up cheap coastal lands and estruaries away from the population centers instead of fighting these costly battles over prime real estate...much more bang for the buck environmentally I'd think.

Sharksbaja - 5-10-2007 at 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
I'd be quietly busy buying up cheap coastal lands and estruaries away from the population centers instead of fighting these costly battles over prime real estate...much more bang for the buck environmentally I'd think.

That's a perfect example of why so many are worried.

David K - 5-10-2007 at 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbuck

Quote:

I appreciate your responce! Much better than the sceaming emotional types that usually yell at me here!! :lol:

Keep us posted on the facts Mike, that will change more opinions than the typical 'sky is falling and it's America's fault' stuff!

Viva Fishbuck!

fishbuck - 5-10-2007 at 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

I appreciate your responce! Much better than the sceaming emotional types that usually yell at me here!! :lol:

Keep us posted on the facts Mike, that will change more opinions than the typical 'sky is falling and it's America's fault' stuff!

Viva Fishbuck!

Thanks David K! It's fun to exchange ideas. I always learn something too!

bajajudy - 5-11-2007 at 06:38 AM

Do any of you know what is involved in an anuncio(that may not be the exact word, but it is a protest filed with the government of Mexico, notice I said Mexico) It is a very long and tedious process and if you file one and you loose, you have to pay the person you filed against for all work lost due to your filing.
There is a reason this is late coming. The Angeles del Estero have been working on this unaided for years. They needed help and are finally getting some. Greenpeace is not the only organization that has stepped up to the plate recently and finally the word is getting out to the people. A grassroots group like the Angeles have a very hard time with funding and therefore need outside help. But this group is made up of local citizens who are beginning to be heard.
I really dont see what difference it makes when the work is stopped. Do you understand what the problem is? Our water supply is threatened by introducing salt water into our water table. Would you want to drink salty water, put it on your plants, feed it to your pets. watch as your garden dies along with all the other living things along the San Jose arroyo?
DK, you and I seldom agree on these types of issues but I would like to believe that if you understood the gravity of this situation, you would join me in protesting against this travesty.
Osa, help me with this please if you have figured out how to log on!

Marie-Rose - 5-11-2007 at 06:48 AM

Judy
I remember responding to a plea for letter writing years ago when this started. At that time it was because of the devastation to the palms and plants. I responded then and would be willing to again if you could let me know who to address the concerns to.
I so empathize with the local san jose people. Let us know how we can help.

Crusoe - 5-11-2007 at 06:56 AM

Now David K.......Please go to your room and take Judys post with you and read it for 1 hour and think about hard........And Then........Come back and write us an intelligent well thought out reply. All Nomads will thank you.++C++

60s Sits

MrBillM - 5-11-2007 at 09:01 AM

Fishbuck "Credits" as a good result the 60s protests with bringing the Vietnam war to an end (in the 70s).

There is still active debate over the Cause, Course and Cost of the Vietnam conflict. One result AFTER Our ignominious departure was an extended intramural conflict including the ChiComs that resulted in an additional Three Million deaths, including just about every Adult and many children who had been allied with our interests. It also resulted in Thousands facing death on the seas in unsafe vessels hoping to escape and find sanctuary.

Since it didn't include American Deaths, I guess it didn't matter. Especially to the Fonda Bunch.

Mexitron - 5-11-2007 at 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

That's a perfect example of why so many are worried.

Huh???

Hook - 5-11-2007 at 11:12 AM

So, how did the "March today" go? Was it well attended? Peaceful? Did the Mexican Government have a "show of force" contingent ready? What did it consist of?

osoflojo - 5-11-2007 at 12:38 PM

Judy, who was the group that stopped the last marina project there in 93 or so, as I remember it was a group of indiginous "tree huggers" (I mean no offense). Prehaps the group that lady from CSL headed that stopped the development of Lovers Beach. I cant remember her name or the name of the group but she has her stuff in one pile and can get things done. A powerful ally if she is still around.

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Quote:

That's a perfect example of why so many are worried.

Huh???

Uh because, then the whole thing repeats itself from other directions. I liken it to sprawl that connects development to development. You know, like one resort or home usually attracts more with the same idea. Kinda like catching a cold. :lol:

Minnow - 5-11-2007 at 02:11 PM

Sharks, that response is absurd. Greenpeace does not get involved this those sorts of things because there is no free publicity in it. The get nothing out of it. Greenpeaces' original mission was great, but it has morphed into a for profit business for those who run it. Much like the ones it protests against. IMHO, all you tree huggers need to take a college level chemistry class. 2nd law of thermodynamics: All attempts to make order from chaos only result in further chaos. By Greenpeaces' very existence they make things worse not better. Deal with it.

Oh, that goes for you, me, this discussion, and the avaricious transactionists that are building that ill advised marina. . :lol:

Now who can tell me the first law of thermodynamics?

OK, I will save you the trouble: All energy flows from the highest energy source to the lowest.

:lol:

[Edited on 11-5-2007 by Minnow]

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 02:36 PM

Did I ever say I trusted them? They are like lawyers. No, they ARE lawyers. Even they can help once and a while. :lol:

I only hug trees that hang around my house. :lol:

I love em. :lol:

[Edited on 5-11-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Sharks

Don Alley - 5-11-2007 at 02:51 PM

I think what Mexitron is alluding too is a "Nature Conservancy" approach: buy suitable lands before they are threatened with development. Or purchase development rights.

flyfishinPam - 5-11-2007 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Do any of you know what is involved in an anuncio(that may not be the exact word, but it is a protest filed with the government of Mexico, notice I said Mexico) It is a very long and tedious process and if you file one and you loose, you have to pay the person you filed against for all work lost due to your filing.
There is a reason this is late coming. The Angeles del Estero have been working on this unaided for years. They needed help and are finally getting some. Greenpeace is not the only organization that has stepped up to the plate recently and finally the word is getting out to the people. A grassroots group like the Angeles have a very hard time with funding and therefore need outside help. But this group is made up of local citizens who are beginning to be heard.
I really dont see what difference it makes when the work is stopped. Do you understand what the problem is? Our water supply is threatened by introducing salt water into our water table. Would you want to drink salty water, put it on your plants, feed it to your pets. watch as your garden dies along with all the other living things along the San Jose arroyo?
DK, you and I seldom agree on these types of issues but I would like to believe that if you understood the gravity of this situation, you would join me in protesting against this travesty.
Osa, help me with this please if you have figured out how to log on!

I think you mean a "denuncia" which is a lawsuit and yes if the plaintif loses the case they need to compensate the defendant as per the law.

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
I think what Mexitron is alluding too is a "Nature Conservancy" approach: buy suitable lands before they are threatened with development. Or purchase development rights.

Ohhh, so sorry Mexitron , duh! Had to reread it. Thanx Don

flyfishinPam - 5-11-2007 at 03:40 PM

fot those who read Spanish the greenpeace site is vry interesting reading:

http://www.greenpeace.org/mexico/fungames/animations/salvemo...

they may be on the way to Loreto soon!

Mexitron - 5-11-2007 at 03:46 PM

Thanks Don