BajaNomad

Farming Tuna

tripledigitken - 5-13-2007 at 04:37 PM

To the fishermen................what are your thoughts about the Tuna Farming taking place in Baja Norte?


Salsipuedes (north of Ensenada)



DENNIS - 5-13-2007 at 04:47 PM

Google "tuna farming" to read the good and the bad.

Better yet, the current isue of National Geographic is aimed at destructive fisheries. Lots of space devoted to tuna farming. It is sad.

bajamigo - 5-13-2007 at 04:59 PM

I'm not a fisherman, but if I were, I still don't think I'd like the fouled water created by the pens, not to mention casualties among fish and mammals that wander too close to them. Although, on second thought, my neighbors living in a part of Punta Banda that overlooks some of the pens find the occasional blood-red water very attractive. Still, our friends across the Big Pond must need the fatted Bluefin for sustenance, so I guess the pens are OK.

If you want a less emotional response to the concept of tuna ranching, check out the April 2007 issue issue of "National Geographic." It's stunning.

DENNIS - 5-13-2007 at 05:09 PM

It's said, the ocean floor beneath the pens is as dead as the surface of the moon. Nothing can live at the bottom of a toilet.

Bajamigo .... "Bluefin for sustenance"........ How much do they pay for that? Were we talking about that the other day?

bajamigo - 5-13-2007 at 05:47 PM

There was an article in the LA Times a few weeks back, indicating that wholesalers in Tokyo pay ten bucks a pound for bluefin (the whole fish). Not knowing much about the sashimi price curve in Nakano, I can't venture to guess what it's worth on the plate at the local sushi bar. I'd say Dad better bring a boatload of yen.

Ranch for tuna

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2007 at 06:51 PM

Ken, here is a previous link. I must add that every time I pass there there are more rings out there. Such a pity that whoever allows this does not understand the long term ramifications.:(

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=16710#pid1429...



[Edited on 5-14-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Iflyfish - 5-13-2007 at 07:10 PM

Ken:
"Such a pity that whoever allows this does not understand the long term ramifications."

or care!

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 5-13-2007 at 07:13 PM

Everything is for sale.

Don Alley - 5-13-2007 at 07:20 PM

There are discussions underway within the US Government to begin expediting "fish farming" (it is NOT farming) in US waters. Part of the discussion is the creation of exclusive leases for the corporations' pens. Yep, they are figuring out a way to privatize the ocean.

DENNIS - 5-13-2007 at 07:28 PM

Like I said......Everything's for sale.

Crusoe - 5-13-2007 at 07:40 PM

And this is the perfect example, and time and place to come to the rescue...... and donate all you can to Greenpeace. At least they can make a small effort.Every little bit helps. ++C++

k1w1 - 5-13-2007 at 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by grover

God will provide(something else) after "he" has taken away what we have left.

We. Hope.(and pray)


please abstain from the mumbo jumbo when addressing these serious issues.
(notice it's not referred to as cruciFACT)
cheers & rgds

Frank - 5-13-2007 at 09:15 PM

The pens will go away when the sardine population is depleted, again. We watched them feed those BFT once. The deck hand was shoveling dead sardines with huge snow shovel, the water was white and foaming. I couldnt take anymore, I had to leave or Im sure I would of tossed the surface iron :spingrin:

fishbuck - 5-13-2007 at 09:17 PM

My guess is that it's having a negative impact on the local tuna schools.
I love to fish from San Diego on the open party tuna trips. But I prefer the 1 day overnight trips. It's cheaper and I don't have to spend as much time on the boat ride part of it.
But last year the fish never got closer than 1 1/2 day trips and 2-3 day trips.
Even then the counts were
not that great.
I've seen the tuna seiners out there filling their pens. I don't think it's only bluefin. Yellowfin and albacore make great sushi also. In fact I prefer them to bluefin.
Everytime I go by the pens there are more of them. Maybe that's why the tuna fishing from San Diego was poor last year. I guess we'll find out in a couple of months. I hope I'm wrong!

Hindsight or no sight.

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2007 at 09:50 PM

Maybe the polihticians and policy maker DID learn something from past mistakes. They now realize that there is no saving wild stocks from being hunted down, gathered up and force-fed or just plain fished into oblivion.
They must make sure the cash flow continues and people are placated with farmed animals(in this case, ranched).
So they probably figure they can milk the seas one way or another for many years to come.

God bless em:mad:


Btw, watch those farmed catfish and salmon.That is unless you like plastic in yer diet.

jerry - 5-13-2007 at 11:50 PM

i dont see the big picture harm?? it feeds the masses. is in small areas and can only exist if there is feed
the production is very high per area spent
raising cattle is cheaper then rustling them:?::?::?:

jerry - 5-13-2007 at 11:55 PM

some people are just against everything no matter what for cristsakes open your eyes a demand will be fed some where some how
look at the big picture farming will take the pressure of the nateral stocks

Who's benefitting,really?

Sharksbaja - 5-14-2007 at 12:42 AM

Not me Jerry I'm all for "sustainable resources" Too bad the bottom line draws the picture. These animals are culled from the waters of Baja in an abnormal and unproven method for "feeding the market" in Japan. Don't be naive, these fish are gathered and fattened up for the elite comsumer. The people with big bucks. It drives ahuge global market. Primarily benefitting the Japanese corps that send their minions around the globe. The people who benefit locally, in this case Mexicanos, will suffer later. They will see what harm extracting tons of basitfish(that's another story) from areas typically untargeted and part of the natural feed suppy for the upper food chain.
Yes, I'am against this type of indiscriminate way of purse seining and ranching. I think it has far reaching consequences.
I was all for catfish farming too. But since I found out the domestic corps opt for inerfior unproven crap from China I lose confidence in them as well. That doesn't mean I think they should stop growing fish. Maybe they should choose USA products first. You know, like CORN MEAL PRODUCTS.
We will never discuss success stories here Jerry and believe it or not, it takes a goodly amount of info from many directions to appropriately address a subject. One that involves natural resources always needs advocates in it's favor. The seas can't defend themselves. Time will tell tho, should they just wait till ALL the fish are gone?

Ranching vs farming

Sharksbaja - 5-14-2007 at 01:20 AM

Ranching differs from farming in a few basic ways. With ranching wild animals are gathered and either hatched and released to return later, as with salmon, or gathered and fattened till market ready. There is no complete "life cycle" in captivity.

Farming is in a closed loop. Fish are fertilized then hatched, reared and raised till market ready. The cycle is then repeated.

Bob and Susan - 5-14-2007 at 05:23 AM

i'm kinda like jerry...

i don't understand why it's a " a negative impact on the local tuna schools"??

the tuna are confined
fed
and butchered

sardines should "know" the rules and keep out of the pens

there are other tuna in the open waters...
they will span...

isn't it better that longliners and netters are not "raping" the fish from the sea???

i really don't understand why this type of tuna farming is a problem???
it provides a year-round source of fresh tuna to the population.

educate me...:saint::saint:

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 05:51 AM

Tuna farms capture their "stock" from the open ocean. Waste on the bottom is a problem. Disease outbreaks? All things considered, would rather see fish farms than unrestricted netting and longlines.:D

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 06:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i'm kinda like jerry...

i don't understand why it's a " a negative impact on the local tuna schools"??

the tuna are confined
fed
and butchered

sardines should "know" the rules and keep out of the pens

there are other tuna in the open waters...
they will span...

isn't it better that longliners and netters are not "raping" the fish from the sea???

i really don't understand why this type of tuna farming is a problem???
it provides a year-round source of fresh tuna to the population.

educate me...:saint::saint:


I guess what I was trying to say is that the tuna they "farm" come from the "local" tuna population.
When I go fishing from San Diego on the big party fishing boats I've watched how they get the fish.
1 boat takes the pen (empty) 50-100 miles offshore where the schools of tuna are at.
2 or 3 three other seiners work the schools. They grab a big scoop of tuna and slowly drag it over to the pen. They continue this until all the tuna are in that pen. Then the one boat slowly drags the pen full of tuna back to Ensenada. Another boat with an empty pen replaces it and this operation continues until all the tuna are now in pens in Ensenada.
The party fishing boats fish the same schools or at least try to.
But like I said last year the fishcounts were way down and the boats had to go much farther to find fish. Where do you think all the fish were?
When I passed by there last week there might have been 50 pens in the bay.
I don't see how this can be good for the tuna schools or the enviornment in that bay.
Fishing in the SOC is lots of fun but nothing compares to pulling up on a huge school school of boiling yellowfin out in the pacific and throwing bait on them. On a good stop I've caught 2 or 3 20-30lb fish in an hour before. And there might be 2-3 stops like that.
On 1 trip I caught 3 bluefin and the smallest was 55lbs. The biggests was 75lbs. I lost a couple and I had to stop fishing even though we were sill hooking fish cause my arms were ruined.
But we're just not seeing that in the last couple of years and I suspect the pens may be why.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-14-2007 at 06:13 AM

Excellent Postings!

What would be the outcome?
Stop all taking of Fish, thereby stoping Profit, stoping People from eating???

Should the Chinese develop a Pill made of Rice that would be consumed each Day for Nourishment?

How do we Feed the Masses without using the Sea, the Land, the Air, the Water ??

Do we take all the Profit out of Labor? Then what happens to the Consumer??

The Central Valley of Calif. is one of the worse Toxic Places in the World--It comes from the Production of Food for the Masses. But the Toxicity does not Kill as many as the Production Feeds!!!

I do not think that Production of Food will stop until the Production of Humans is controlled to a Balance through Famine, War, Govt. Plague, etc.

Mabe Nostradumas was trying to tell us all something when he said" The yellow Horde will swarm the Earth. {Looking for Food?}

Skeet/Loreto

elgatoloco - 5-14-2007 at 06:59 AM

The Mexican govt had commisioned an 8 year study on the impact of the tuna pens on the halibut spawning grounds along the coast of Salsipudes. After two spawning seasons evidence was clear that the number of fish and the size of the juveniles was way down. Those involved with the study were told by the government agency that a decision would be made after the 8 year study was concluded, no matter what the evidence was. I wonder how many of the officials who issued permits will be in place by then?:(

Don Alley - 5-14-2007 at 07:09 AM

These tuna are for a high-end, luxury food market, to generate big profits. Not to feed the masses.

This is also an uncontrolled, unmanaged fishery, as is the fishery needed to harvest their feed. The best available science says these species are overfished. So we develop new fisheries and new markets to further exploit the declining fish stocks?

I really wouldn't care that much about tuna pens if they existed in the context of a properly managed fishery. But they don't. And if the aisian marketplace dictates the elimination of tuna stocks, Mexico will oblige.

Skipjack Joe - 5-14-2007 at 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The Central Valley of Calif. is one of the worse Toxic Places in the World--It comes from the Production of Food for the Masses. But the Toxicity does not Kill as many as the Production Feeds!!!

Skeet/Loreto


Yesterday, I drove by one of the most Toxic Places of the Central Valley. P.U.! You can smell it for miles as you approach the area off hwy 5. Cattle standing in their own dung, waiting to be slaughtered. It's so bad nothing grows there. Bare ground with your future dinner sprawled in the dung. The whole filthy mess being watered with sprinklers to keep them cool.

Regarding the pens:
Maybe they should keep them over deep water, off the continental shelves. The waste would have a longer drop to the bottom and the bacteria could do their thing. Probably not a good long term solution.

coconaco - 5-14-2007 at 09:07 AM

Those tiny little rings in the Pacific would be better than the huge farms destroying the bays. The YFT pens in the Bay of La Paz would be of more concern. Tidal flow vs. current.


Last year when the Tuna Federation cut off the migration west of San Quintin, there were stories of people racing to the schools spotted by the helicopters. Maybe they could get a hook-up before the battleship got there.

coconaco - 5-14-2007 at 09:19 AM

LOBOS
The big big sea lions get into those pens damaging and consuming mass quantities of product.

This should help our fishing. Our last yellow tail trip in BOLA
you could only get the firecrackers to the boat. If the fight lasted more than five minutes the seal would steal it.
We need tuna pens in LA BAY and at CEDROS ISLAND and
off La JOLLA and off NEWPORT. We will be able to boat the bigger fish. Dropping the anchor is not a dinner bell!

The industry says that high lobo mortality rate in the areas of the pens is unrelated.

[Edited on 5-14-2007 by coconaco]

coconaco - 5-14-2007 at 09:27 AM

These net pens were not showing up on radar and boats
have gotten entangled at night. They need to be better marked and away from shipping lanes.

Slowmad - 5-14-2007 at 10:37 AM

For the chu-toro and o-toro demanded by the Tokyo marketplace, these ranched bluefin must consume TONS of sardines.
These sardines are seined locally (Todos Santos bay) and are being decimated.
No sardines equals no WSB, yellowtail, etc. etc.

Asinine.

But hey, makes for fun sidebar stories:

http://www.spearboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26764

coconaco - 5-14-2007 at 11:56 AM

Thanks Slowmad- no big deal just another day a work-
The first strike weapon works well on the sea lions.

mtgoat666 - 5-14-2007 at 11:56 AM

Farm salmon tastes bad and has odd texture, when compared to wild. Also, studies show that farm fed salmon have higher PCB content. I saw some catfish farms in Vietnam that didn't look too appetizing. Never seen a shrimp farm.
When shopping, I avoid all farmed fish/shrimp, and pay the extra $$ for wild.
Likewise, avoid meat raised in crowded conditions, such as feed-lot mass-raised beef and chicken from the big foster farms type warehouse cages. If the raising conditions don't look appetizing, do you think the meat is very appetizing?
:no::no::no::no::no:

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 12:09 PM

About those farm raised catfish. :) The Mississippi delta is the #1 catfish farming region of the country.;)The farm raised catfish actually taste better than most wild fish.:tumble: "Basra?" are farm-raised catfish imported from Asia, probably fed on human and duck doo-doo.:barf:

Slowmad - 5-14-2007 at 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by coconaco
Thanks Slowmad- no big deal just another day a work-
The first strike weapon works well on the sea lions.


Jump in there unarmed with an adult bull lobo and see who ends up wearing the skirt.
:lol:

Slowmad - 5-14-2007 at 12:36 PM

Did she slap you?

Right Slowmad

Sharksbaja - 5-14-2007 at 12:58 PM

I feel at the rate of exploitation, the tuna(and other pelagic) fish will be obvious in less thamn 10 years. It's no joke and no lark that these pens that look so miniscule out there are having an enormous impact proportionally.
It isn't so much that the tuna are being decimated(hard to tell) but the baitfish really are key to successful fisheries. After the great sardine fall of the seventies, action was taken to help restore and protect sardine stocks. Call it coincidence but as the little fish rebounded so did other predator fish. Most importantly, white sea bass and tuna species. These are fish that show up on the radar screen. As the numbers of sardine and anchovy increased so did the animals that feed upon them. Mexico has terrific waters for tuna. The Japanese and Koreans are well aware of Bajas' abundant schools of these fish. Purse seining and the subsequent relocation of these fish ushers in scenario quite unlike any other and unproven methodology. As more rings are added the amount of food necessary gets bigger and bigger to feed these guys. Hence, less for others.

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 01:12 PM

The harvesting of sardines etc. to feed the tuna farms results in a lot of pelagic species going hungry, slim pickings.:O

Bob and Susan - 5-14-2007 at 01:28 PM

so cypress that's a drawback...

otherwise there hasn't really been a really good reason not to farm...

Japan, Korea, and sushi eaters get tuna all year round...

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 01:32 PM

The gill netters and purse seiners have to be given the same respect as the long-liners. None, until they quit biting the hand that feeds them.

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 02:18 PM

Bob and Susan. Enjoy your site and posts.:bounce:Farms are private property, the oceans belong to all of us.:spingrin:

bajabum - 5-14-2007 at 04:50 PM

The Tuna pens in Ensenada (and many other oceans in the world) have had a very negative effect on the local eco systems. I have fished the Punta Banda area for many years now and the effect of the Tuna pens has been devastating to the local fishery. The tuna are netted with the utmost efficiency that modern technology can provide and the take is in tons. The pens are then hauled into the bay where smaller bait boats (seiners) work all nite catching anchovies, sardines and mackeral to fatten the Tuna with where they are then sold to the highest bidder in the international market where they are resold as a high end food item. The pens do not provide food for any of the locals nor to the masses in any country. Japan and other countries have wiped out thier local fisheries and are now using the Mexicans greed to do the same to thiers. The bait boats used to service the handfull of pens without having to travel very far, they now go as far south as Pta Santo Tomas and as far north as they can without crossing into US waters wiping out the bait schools to feed the tuna with thus adversly affecting the fisheries from the border to just about SQ. Before the pens you could always count on catching homeguard yellowtail year round and every spring thresher sharks could be caught in the bay followed by huge schools of baracuda and Bonita along with seasonal schools of yellowtail that moved into the bay each summer drawn for generations to the abundance of bait fish. In the Fall the bay would be filled with migrating whales. Now the tuna farmers and their pens have altered and probably forever changes the Ensenada fishery. While you can still catch a fish or two if you work your @ss off there has definetly been a very noticible decline in the fish poulations over the last 2-3 years which is most probably directly caused by this new form of farming. This is not a simple matter of a few innocent fishermen trying to eek a living out of the ocean with a few pens, Im guessing that there are now at least 50-75 tuna pens stretching all the way from the Coranado Islands to somewhere south of Ensenada and this is a multi multi million dollar operation that is abusing the lax mexican regulations and doing serious damge to the locall waters.

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 04:55 PM

Bajabum ----

It couldn't have been better said. Too bad nobody heard it.

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 05:04 PM

bajabum. Thanks for taking the time to share your first hand knowlege of the impact of large scale tuna farming in your local area.:oThe damage appears to be far more severe than most people are aware of.:no:

Crusoe - 5-14-2007 at 05:27 PM

I can see clearly now......The Sea Sheppard Society has an important job to complete here..... ACTION TALKS.....and b.s. walks!!!!!

Pescador - 5-14-2007 at 08:28 PM

As Bob and Susan replied, it seems to make sense to farm these fish but the issue is much more complicated than that. I have a good friend who did the major studies on the salmon pens in British Columbia as a fisheries bioligist for BC and they found two problems. First, as has been adequately explored here is the heavy concentration of netting for food fish for the penned fish. Instead of roaming where the bait schools take them, these fish are confined to one small location, and normal ups and downs of bait populations are exponentially overharvested. And, they take the whole school off bait instead of selective kill which knocks out the weaker and injured baitfish. So we are feeding baitfish to the tuna which otherwise might have kept the hereditary survival of the fittest operational.
Secondly, since the fish are confined to a relatively small and overcrowded area, natural predation and survival of the fittest is not allowed to come in to play, so they are effectively destroying a gene pool which keeps only a percentage of those most capable of providing genetic information to their offspring. In addition, the overcrowding has led to serious issues of disease and parasitic intrusion which further depletes future generation. There is always some escape from these enclosures so the escapees may or may not be nature selected breeding stock.
Finally, is the problem of having fish growing in such a small area and the concentrations of urea and fecal material far exceed the natural cleansing ability of the ocean to cope and recover.
But, the economic pressures are significant so the practice will probably continue to grow until the whole situation caves.

Skipjack Joe - 5-14-2007 at 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
So we are feeding baitfish to the tuna which otherwise might have kept the hereditary survival of the fittest operational.
Secondly, since the fish are confined to a relatively small and overcrowded area, natural predation and survival of the fittest is not allowed to come in to play, so they are effectively destroying a gene pool which keeps only a percentage of those most capable of providing genetic information to their offspring.


Drawing too many conclusions about tuna pens from salmon aquaculture is a mistake. Salmon breeding habitat has been largely destroyed in many areas. The gene pool of home grown salmon is dominating the species gene pools for many populations of salmon in the lower 48.

Tuna, on the other hand, are widely distributed across all oceans and their gene pools should be quite rich. Sure there is constant draw from the pool by these pens but it's miniscule compared with salmon (due to habitat destruction). There's still plenty of natural selection going on in wild tuna populations.

Worldtraveller - 5-14-2007 at 10:37 PM

Farmed fish = less healthy & less tasty to eat; likely to pollute waters; potential of disease among both farmed & wild fish.

I try to eat only wild fish caught in sustainable ways among sustainable populations.

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 12:32 AM

Salmon ranching is a hit and miss proposition. Hatching and raising salmon till they are smolts(junvenile salmon capable of plying rivers and ocean) is common. Getting them to return to the same pens with regularity is different story. There are many variables that can affect the cycle and return of a species to it's spawning ground, in the case of "ranching", concrete runs. Tuna are similar in that they range far. Salmon may go a thousand miles or more in their natural quest for food. The tuna takes it a level higher. They are amazing for they can cross complete oceans with regularity.
Salmon raised in pens, then released into adjacent waters have a low return rate unfortunately. It was tried numerous times here w/o much success. The down time between salmon returns was just not cost effective. You have to keep the facility viable while waiting only to have weak returns.

This was the problem ten years ago. Who knows it could succeed today.
I actually favor this way of raising salmon.It mimics more their natural life cycle . They travel to sea, feed on natural food sources and return to spawn as did their forefathers. There is less gene degradation as they don't typically mix with wild stocks and return to other strains ancestral breeding grounds. They hopefully return to the concrete waterways where they were reared. This cycle fortifies future strains by narrowing the gene pool enough to keep them strong enough to compete.
THe fact that success was limited may be due to many factors, some political perhaps. I would like to see a return to this approach. These are quality salmon with good flavor and firmness. Besides "ranching" for money, it also will support a local sportfishing opportunity. I've seen some beauties taken years ago near this operation. Another plus is the ability to "ranch" other species of salmon.



Farmed salmon on the other hand is an inferior fish with it's roots in the N. Atlantic. These force-fed pool-raised fish are exactly what they eat. Processed hi-protein pellets and food colors. It reminds me of raising Koi only without the concern for genetics. They are like clones. The tissue is weak and soft. The flavor is not strong with no essence of the sea. The fish create waste which is harmful to other fish and aquatic life and now we find out a large percent of farmed fish has been fed and raised on Chinese products. Some of which has killed pets and entered the food chain.
I'm confident there will be progress in farming and ranching fish in th future. Aquaculture is evolving. It has to be profitable or others won't follow suit. The US should be at the vanguard of this science. As with oil, there is a finite amount of sealife on this planet. We are fortunate that the planet has some flux. It gives reprieves once and a while.;D

Hawaii offshore fish farms

Skipjack Joe - 5-15-2007 at 07:43 AM

As suggested in my earlier posts:

a. offshore farming is already occuring.

b. genetic variability is maintained because you're dealing with farmed native species (as opposed to reared fish from limited gene pool).

c. fish meal will soon replace baitfish and reduce problem of removing local baitfish, thus affecting other species.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5291579

Pescador - 5-15-2007 at 08:46 AM

Igor, you may be right that there is no genetic degradation in pen raised tuna, but I contend that whenever you disrupt the natural occurence you will always throw something out of control. When the great scientists brought rabbits to Australia, things got so out of hand there was a major crisis. Tuna have roamed forever and to keep them closed up in a net enclosure will alter something, I suspect that we may not know exactly what that is. Shrimp seem to be doing well with this approach but they never did migrate and move that much anyway.
I hope you are right that we can quit feeding them dwindling sardine supplies and maybe feed them organic soy bean meal. That sure makes for some appetizing sushi.

jerry - 5-15-2007 at 09:48 AM

tuna are a eating mechine their warm blooded and need to eat constently
they literally eat them selves to death their body simply get so big that they cannot eat enoff food to sustain themselves in the wild
raising them in a pen is a more effecent way of using feed
hence if a tune lives a year to be 100 lb in the wild
farm raised tune are 100 lb in 9 months it takes less food to raise thefarm raised tune simply because it doesent have to sustain its body heat as long or use as much energy to acheave the same weight
if the problem of feeding local bait fish is solved by pellets or other sorces??
and the pens were constently moving so there would be no build up of toxic matter i think it is a very viable way to raise tuna as a food fish
jerry

Slowmad - 5-15-2007 at 10:06 AM

And with pellet feed it's easier to control the amount of antibiotics, food colorings, and growth hormones you give the fish...like with farmed salmon.

Skipjack Joe - 5-15-2007 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
Igor, you may be right that there is no genetic degradation in pen raised tuna, but I contend that whenever you disrupt the natural occurence you will always throw something out of control.


I agree with you 100% on this Jim. The people in Hawaii are saying they are monitoring their pens and find 0% water degradation. Are they monitoring the ocean bottom, 20,000 feet below the surface? I doubt it. As you say there is a balance in nature. If you add any factor to the whole system something has to change to compensate for that change. Be it at 200 feet or 20,000 feet. When all of that waste sinks to the bottom there will be change in the fauna. You just can't have ocean farming in the wild with no repercussions.

Regarding the sushi: I agree with that too. When they start adding vegetable matter to the tuna food their meat just ain't gonna taste the same. The tuna just won't be the same fish anymore.

It's a changing world.

jerry - 5-15-2007 at 10:18 AM

you start feeding soy to fish and theres gona be a tofo shortage:o:o:o:o:o

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 11:06 AM

Skip. I assume these pens are for salmon, reared in shore-based pens and then tranferred when large enough. I've heard of these.
It sounds reasonable and the deep water would disperse fecal matter. That sounds ok too. Please explain how they rear tuna for introduction to these cages. Are they also raised in tanks?? I've never heard that. Or are they culled from the wild and fattened up in there?

Jerry is right, tuna, like goldfish will eat themselves into oblivion given the chance. The farmers will fatten them as fast as they can for market. Will tuna eat pellets?? I am confused as to exactly which species of fish are being studied as candidates for deep sea farming. I can understand how salmon would thrive. I cannot however believe that tuna, cod or swordfish could be raised this way from juveniles to table fare.

I liken tuna farming to fish-slavery.

cbuzzetti - 5-15-2007 at 11:17 AM

Something that has not been touched on hear is that the juvenile Blue Fin tuna they are catching and raising have not yet had babies.
This is not a sustainable fishery.
This is going on all over the world. The Blue Fin Tuna is being fished to extintion because there is no minimum size limit. This is a well documented problem that is not addressed by the tuna pens.
Blue Fin Tuna will only breed in certain enviroments. That enviroment is not in a tuna pen.
The Japanese have been trying to raise BFT (Blue Fin Tuna) in nets in their natural breeding areas but have not yet succeeded in making babies.
I love Sushi as much as the next guy/gal. But I choose not to eat BFT due to the extermination currently in progress.
Eventually the BFT stocks will collapse and they will move on to another tuna (Albacore/Yellowfin) and wipe those out also.
It won't take long. IMO

Exactly

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 11:23 AM

"This is going on all over the world."

Yep, so is murder so I guess it's ok.:rolleyes:

Mexitron - 5-15-2007 at 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Worldtraveller
Farmed fish = less healthy & less tasty to eat; likely to pollute waters; potential of disease among both farmed & wild fish.

I try to eat only wild fish caught in sustainable ways among sustainable populations.


And the price is too high to eat much anyway...which is why 95 percent of my fish intake is Tilapia now.:rolleyes:

Cypress - 5-15-2007 at 11:34 AM

This whole issue is much too complex for my little mind.:no:It's obvious that the "wild" fish stocks are in decline worldwide, even where strict catch regulations are enforced.:no: Those Tilapia are tastey!!:bounce:

Skipjack Joe - 5-15-2007 at 12:03 PM

Sharks, I believe they net wild tuna and pen them. They are then grown to large size and sold to markets. I don't think they raise them from eggs. Thus there is no introduction of pen bred fish into wild stocks (except by accident - winter storms, that sort of thing). So I don't see how they're messing with the gene pool.

P.S. the day I have to be satisfied with tilapia ..... well I hope that day never comes.

Cypress - 5-15-2007 at 12:23 PM

Jeez! Wonder if anybody knows why the Japanese have to cross the whole Pacific Ocean to get quality fish?:rolleyes:

mtgoat666 - 5-15-2007 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Quote:
Originally posted by Worldtraveller
Farmed fish = less healthy & less tasty to eat; likely to pollute waters; potential of disease among both farmed & wild fish.

I try to eat only wild fish caught in sustainable ways among sustainable populations.


And the price is too high to eat much anyway...which is why 95 percent of my fish intake is Tilapia now.:rolleyes:


Have you ever seen where Tilapia come from? :o I would sooner eat dog doo than Tilapia.

Frank - 5-15-2007 at 04:15 PM

Yes, they net wild Tuna and then fattem them up for market. The feed is sardines, lots and lots of sardines.

3-4weeks ago they were moving a pen around, and ripped it open on a high spot. I sure wouldnt want to be the guy who was responsible for that one :O

I only eat wild caught fish also:biggrin:

Soupfin?? Theasher??

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 04:34 PM

That's funny Frank. You can take this argument even farther with that photo. What do you know about sharks and their fate and success in the seas today? I would guess little.
You sure know how to make a point!:mad:

Mexitron - 5-15-2007 at 05:07 PM

Actually, for being raised in whatever horrid waters, Tilapia tastes amazingly like...nothing...so it absorbs whatever flavors you bestow on it(and if you buy Chinese Tilapia it comes pre-spiced with melamine for free!). I also like the idea that Tilapia is about the most efficient fish(or animal) known. So instead of the feeding ratio of 10 to 1 for farm-raised salmon it comes out closer to 1 to 1 for Tilapia...or at least so I've read.

JESSE - 5-15-2007 at 06:09 PM

Well, can't contribute anything about the environmental aspect of this discussion, but as far as food goes, we have the Tuna from those pens in Ensenada served as sahimi here, and its absolutely delicious. I have tried other frozen tuna from other parts of the world, and its not as good.

fishbuck - 5-15-2007 at 06:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Well, can't contribute anything about the environmental aspect of this discussion, but as far as food goes, we have the Tuna from those pens in Ensenada served as sahimi here, and its absolutely delicious. I have tried other frozen tuna from other parts of the world, and its not as good.


Only bluefin? Or yellowfin and albacore as I suspect?
It would be difficult for me to believe that the seiners would sail right past a big school of yellowfin. Albies? I heard they can't be netted because they're too skittish.
It's possible the albies could be hook caught and placed in luna tubes until they could be placed in the pens.

bajalou - 5-15-2007 at 06:37 PM

When I worked with the tuna canneries on Terminal Island (across the channel from San Pedro), the fishermen and cannery people always were excited when the got bluefin, in their opinion, the best.

DENNIS - 5-15-2007 at 06:43 PM

My ayudante on the house used to work on the pens.........says only bluefin.

Another story he told is how one set of pens, 7 or 8 of them, lost 500 ton of bluefin to red tide. They towed the pens to outside water and dumped them, all dead. How could they let that happen? Red tide doesn't just sneak up on you. Jeezo, what a waste.
This happened 6 -7 years ago.

fishbuck - 5-15-2007 at 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou
When I worked with the tuna canneries on Terminal Island (across the channel from San Pedro), the fishermen and cannery people always were excited when the got bluefin, in their opinion, the best.


Bluefin is delicious and alot of un to catch. Anything 30lbs and up will really kick your tail.
But the meat is darker and reddish. It's rich and has a "beef" sorta taste like iron rich.
Both yellowfin and albacore are light in color and are fantastic.
I don't know why some people prize bluefin so highly. Betwwen yellow and blue I prefer yellow. Albacore is a completely different taste because of a higher fat content but still excellent.
Man, I hope we have a good San Diego season! I love catching those darn things.

DENNIS - 5-15-2007 at 06:52 PM

Which one has most mercury?

fishbuck - 5-15-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Which one has most mercury?


Maybe that was mercury I was tasting not iron.
The biggest one will have the most mercury. He has eaten more baitfish so more mercury.

Cypress - 5-15-2007 at 07:10 PM

See "Collaring Tuna".:yes:Preparing tuna for the table has reached a new level.:tumble:

Frank - 5-15-2007 at 09:23 PM

Sharksbaja, thats a Male, Thresher. How much do you know? Soupfin isnt even close my friend. Awesome on the grill. I take 1 per year, does that seem wasteful to you?

[Edited on 5-16-2007 by Frank]

There is a reason Frank

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 10:15 PM

I am no shark expert though I do know a few things about sharks. Not too much really. Many sharks are not well understood. This is one of them. This shark is oophagous. This means the larger, stronger developing pups will eat their smaller, weaker siblings while in the womb. As a result, the thresher shark only gives birth to usually two, but no more than four pups at a time. Since sharks have two uteruses, there is usually one dominant pup in each uterus that eats the rest of the young.

Frank - 5-15-2007 at 10:29 PM

Sharks are one of my favorite fishes. I ve got them tattooed on my arms :biggrin: as do both of my brothers, so I do share your love for them. Nothing more amazing then to have a Mako come screaming up and rip your Yellowtail in half, or to see a Thresher tail whacking a school of mackeral. Seeing it brings to life everything you read about thier nature.

The population is rated to be in good condition, with a sustainable fishery. http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/SeafoodWatch/web/sfw_factsheet.aspx...

Looks like I trolled up one more shark:spingrin: I hope to meet up with you someday.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-16-2007 at 09:05 AM

Just for information:
A great Number of the small Airstrips built on the Baja Sur Coast, were built to pick up the Livers of the Sharks Harvested by the Mexican Fisherman in and around 1948.
The Livers were taken, the rest discarded with the Livers going to the States for Vitamins!

I agree 100% that the Threasher is the best tasting next to a Cabrilla.

Some of you may recall, that the First Fish and Chips places in California served Shark unobserved, until such time as they were required to Post a small Decal at the Entrance notifying the Customers that Shark was being used as Fish and Chips.

Sharks serve many Purposes: On several of my trips in my Airplane I had to clear Customs at Calixco. There was a Hotshot Customs Officer who would go through everything with a Fine Tooth Comb, so on one Trip I took a bunch of Small Sharks Teeth, kept them in the Hot Sun, then bagged them in Plastic. When the Hot Shot opened the Bag, he exited the Plane rapidly and never did bother with a Search thereafter!!!

Where there is Will, There is a Way!!!

Yea, I understand Frank...sorta

Sharksbaja - 5-16-2007 at 10:02 AM

Years back when I lived on Catalina Is. I was enlisted every year to help catch and deliver a Mako for the USC Marine Science Associates BBQ & Luau. It was a big affair. The shark was the hit every year. Not only that but I was able to get up close and personal with a variety of sharks. Some ended up as table fare and I might add, were very good eating.
One of of fun things I would do for the kids was to take them down to the waters edge at Cat Harbor and wrestle a 50-60 pound Shovelnose by the tale in the shallow water. They tasted just like chicken. I've eaten shark more times than I can count amigo. I do know about eating them.

I met a young man from Australia who was a grad student from UCSD. He would hand capture nurse sharks freediving in the cove next to the science center and tag them with a transducer. He would then follow them around all night in a dinghy.:lol:

We got to be friends. His passion and love for sharks was overwelming. Today, Rocky Strong is a famous researcher and has made many documentaries for National Geographic and THe Discovery Channel. He is a die hard advocate of sharks as are other folks and friends like Jean-Michel Cousteau and the crew of Ocean Futures. They have conducted many studies around the globe and hopfully their data , films and information will help the oceans live better. I'm all for that.
My shark days are over but not my fishin' days. I can manage easily w/o as I have for 20 years now. I often get asked in the restaurant why I never feature "shark" on the menu.
I used to give the big spiel. You know, save a shark, save a planet.:lol: Now I just tell them it's personal choice. We should meet. I have some killer shark recipes!;D Even better, Sea lion cuisine!

baitcast - 5-16-2007 at 10:32 AM

Did a lot of shark fishing in a 16' Ryan in the mid 60,s and early 70,s off Long beach,San Pedro and around that general area,it was no-where as popular then as it is today,we got the hell scared out of us on more than one occasion,hooked into big thugs,who would jump in close to us and TAKE MY BREATH AWAY,we were young and dumb,nearly had my head taken off by a thresher and thought it was fun:rolleyes:
Have a question for anyone,back then mako,s were called bonito sharks on the west coast?
No we didn,t try to boat any of the bigger models:lol:

Sharksbaja - 5-16-2007 at 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Well, can't contribute anything about the environmental aspect of this discussion, but as far as food goes, we have the Tuna from those pens in Ensenada served as sahimi here, and its absolutely delicious. I have tried other frozen tuna from other parts of the world, and its not as good.


Oh wow, I had no idea the fish were sold locally. That really is interesting. Do you know how big are those are Jesse. Common sense would tell me these fish were bound for a higher market return. This must mean they have ample supplies if they are willing to sell them off at a much lower price than in Japan. I wonder if maybe what you got was of a grade or tuna sp. that isn't part of their export biz. :?:

Cypress - 5-16-2007 at 02:22 PM

The Japanese have taken quality seafood to another level.:)Why pay premo prices for less than a premo product?:)They don't just toss a fish in the ice chest.:)Check out the steps involved in preparing tuna.:)ncseagrant.:)