BajaNomad - the disaster coming

the disaster coming

mike odell - 5-16-2007 at 08:59 PM

Have none of the nomads been following the news about the new fishing rules that have been passed into law???????
Read the english newspaper The Baja News, front page and center section.
The $%$$$! longliners and purse seiners now have the LEGAL RIGHT to work to 15 miles of the coast of the sea of cortez. Massivae demonstrations in Cabo , and elsewhere but nothing is being done yet. This is potentially the worse thing that could happen on Both sides of the sea of cortez.
Follow this news as closely as you can, And no this not a Greenpeace rant. All of who live or vacation here are seriosly impacted by this obcenity of a law.
Big business on the mainland has lined their pockets again, Sport Fishing be damned.
The impact of this law now in effect is overwhelming to all of us that love BAJA.
There is allready the Red Sea , are we soon to be the DEAD SEA? :mad:

fishbuck - 5-16-2007 at 09:08 PM

So much for everyone thinking the Mexicans can manage their fishery in a sustainable manner.
The new Shark Norma 029 allows the netters and longliners to fish within the 50 mile conservation zone for sharks. But it allows them to keep and sell the bycatch. That means marlin and tuna and everything else.
This is terrible for sure. I sent the form letter availible on the Sea Watch site but what else can be done about it?

mike odell - 5-16-2007 at 09:27 PM

fishbuck,
the vieled shark norma rule is not about sharks, bycatch is what is about, and BIG money. It will take all the Hotel and Developers,Real Estate firms, etc, to fight this shat, after their pockets are effected, maybe the little guys will be heard,but , in my thinking, not before.
Shoot youself in the foot again comes to mind, but this time I think blow off both legs with double ought buck is more liked it. :mad:

mike odell - 5-16-2007 at 09:56 PM

I just looked off my upstairs deck, which I think is about 100 ft above sea level, at the water, there are lights on the horizon,moving slowly, that I haven't noticed at this time of nght,11 pm, I don't think it's a sailboat in transit. :mad:

Hook - 5-16-2007 at 10:48 PM

Would appreciate it if you would keep us posted on this. Sightings, etc.

I read on a Sonora fishing board that longlines were already out over there but they sounded like the typical panga ones that have NEVER GONE AWAY, LAW OR NO LAW.

Don Alley - 5-16-2007 at 11:17 PM

http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/organizaciones_...

Quote:

Diversas organizaciones ecologistas nacionales e internacionales celebraron hoy la entrada en vigor de una nueva ley en México que regula la pesca de tiburones y rayas para evitar el desequilibrio en su producción.

So not everyone is unhappy? There have been some complicated negotiations over the Shark Norma going on for several years. Perhaps some of the environmental groups got some things they wanted, such as some zones closed to shark fishing, and technical protection of great white and whale sharks, which apparently would be released if caught under the norma.

I have yet to see the latest details of the revised rules, but apparently large areas will be opened to the legal commercial take of dorado, marlin, sailfish and other sport fish as "bycatch." Considering the numbers of sharks that remain in the Sea of Cortez, it sure seems to me that the intent of the law and the resulting commercial fishery will be to further commercialize gamefish.

Cypress - 5-17-2007 at 05:02 AM

Gill nets! Now purse seines also!

Jeez! Followed by the clean-up fleet of mid-range trawlers and factory ships. About a dozen of those big trawlers can sweep a wide patch.

Crusoe - 5-17-2007 at 06:56 AM

This is really sad!!........The good old days maybe now. :mad:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-17-2007 at 09:24 AM

Mike;
In the Late 40"s Sharks were taken in the Sea of Cortez by the Thousands for their Livers only.

In the 70<s at one time there were two Japanese Commercial Boats with 5 Foot Diameter Tubes Sucking up the Fish on the Eastside of Carmen for over 30 Days. Their Catch was siezed by the Mexican Govt. and given to the Poor of Mexicao City.

In the past 15 years there has been 1000's of Tons of Squid taken by Hanjin.

In the 7o's the Sierra were taken by the Tons from the Bays.

70's and 80' Shrimp Boats were a Nightly Part of Loreto.

Yet this year there are Sharks and from Pompano and others Reports the Dorado Fishing is Fantastic.

I watched all of this happening over the Past 40 years of living on and Fishing The Sea of Cortez.
I do not profess to having the Answers, but I am inclined to beleive that if a certain Species is "Wiped Out" that another will evolve to takes its Place.

Yesterdays News reported that 400 new Species had been Discovered!

Who Knows???

Iflyfish - 5-17-2007 at 09:59 AM

Skeet,

Exactly! There is no problem with this. It is impossible to wipe out an entire species, and if that happens, something else will take over. Like c-ckroaches if we ever nuke the human population out of existence.

Iflyfish

Don Alley - 5-17-2007 at 10:46 AM

More information, and contact list from the Billfish Foundation:

http://www.billfish.org/new/NewsArticle.asp?ArticleID=60

Not a fisherman BUT

Baja Bernie - 5-17-2007 at 10:55 AM

Does anyone have the ear of Bobbi Van Warmer (know that is not the spelling--I just have a mental block) or his son the Mexican Senator from that area????

Don Alley - 5-17-2007 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie
Does anyone have the ear of Bobbi Van Warmer (know that is not the spelling--I just have a mental block) or his son the Mexican Senator from that area????

Roberto Van Wormer is a congressman from BCS. He is undoubtedly aware of the problem.

mtgoat666 - 5-17-2007 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike odell
Have none of the nomads been following the news about the new fishing rules that have been passed into law???????
Read the english newspaper The Baja News, front page and center section.
The $%$$$! longliners and purse seiners now have the LEGAL RIGHT to work to 15 miles of the coast of the sea of cortez. Massivae demonstrations in Cabo , and elsewhere but nothing is being done yet. This is potentially the worse thing that could happen on Both sides of the sea of cortez.
Follow this news as closely as you can, And no this not a Greenpeace rant. All of who live or vacation here are seriosly impacted by this obcenity of a law.
Big business on the mainland has lined their pockets again, Sport Fishing be damned.
The impact of this law now in effect is overwhelming to all of us that love BAJA.
There is allready the Red Sea , are we soon to be the DEAD SEA? :mad:

The happenings in Mex are just the tip of the iceberg. Same is happening all over the world: rampant overfishing. Problem is that laws, if passed, are not obeyed. Hard to police the seas unless you have a large, mobile police force like USCG and other US agencies. In another 20 years many seas will be dead, unless you start screaming to be heard now.
Many of you nomads seem to poo-poo environmentalist groups, but I think you need to put up or shut up.

Cypress - 5-17-2007 at 11:39 AM

Skeet, That was then, this is now.

Bigger boats, bigger nets, very sophisticated electronics and who knows what else will expedite the demise of whatever species they target.

The by-catch, pound for pound or to be more realistic, ton by ton, can be worth more than the target species.

Gawd I love big business!

Sharksbaja - 5-17-2007 at 12:05 PM

NOT!!

Another resource in the palms of the bad people.

backninedan - 5-17-2007 at 12:59 PM

Skeet, you seem to have lost touch with reality.

wilderone - 5-17-2007 at 01:20 PM

"I am inclined to beleive that if a certain Species is "Wiped Out" that another will evolve to takes its Place."
If you all have about 1 million years to allow that to happen, then, shoot, we don't have a problem, do we?
"Yesterdays News reported that 400 new Species had been Discovered!"
Where? Not in the Sea of Cortez.
"It is impossible to wipe out an entire species." Gotta new flash for ya:

"The 'Red Data Book of Japan' contains results of a survey on threatened fauna and flora conducted by the Environment Agency of Japan. It lists 259 species and subspecies of amphibians and fresh water fish that are original to Japan. Of these, two are extinct, 16 feared extinct, six in danger of extinction, and 17 are scares (total 41 species in danger). For example, the Hokuriku and Abe Salamanders, Mase Salmon, Ariake Ice Fish, Shortfin Scad, Metropolitan Bitterling and Chinese Stickle-back are listed as 'endangered'; the Hakuba salamander, Japanese Hunchen, Jead Spotted Charr, and the Rough Shin Sculpin are listed as 'vulnerable'. "
_______________

For years, many scientists and regulators believed the oceans were so vast there was little risk of marine species dying out. Now, some suspect the world is on the cusp of what Ellen K. Pikitch, executive director of the Pew Institute for Ocean Science, calls "a gathering wave of ocean extinctions." Dozens of biologists believe the seas have reached a tipping point, with scores of species of ocean-dwelling fish, birds and mammals edging toward extinction. In the past 300 years, researchers have documented the global extinction of just 21 marine species — and 16 have occurred since 1972.
Since the 1700s, another 112 species have died out in particular regions, and that trend, too, has accelerated since the mid-1960s: Nearly two dozen shark species are close to disappearing, according to the World Conservation Union, an international coalition of government and advocacy groups.
"It's been a slow-motion disaster," said Boris Worm, a professor at Canada's Dalhousie University, whose 2003 study that found that 90 percent of the top predator fish have vanished from the oceans. "It's silent and invisible. People don't imagine this. It hasn't captured our imagination, like the rain forest."
______________

From The Marine Mammal Center:
"Extinction has happened throughout history, but in modern times the rate has increased dramatically. There is a link between the increase in the extinction rate and the growth in human population. The worldwide human population was 1 billion in 1600, 1.5 billion 100 years ago, and is over 6 billion today. At the same time, the species extinction rate has increased to one species a day. If this continues, it will cause a dramatic drop in the diversity of life on our planet, which will most certainly have serious effects.

Increasingly, people crowd out places for wild plants and animals to live. Some animals and plants can survive in only one specific type of habitat, and when their habitat disappears, so do they. Some areas have become too polluted and unhealthy for animals and plants to survive. Recreational activities also interfere with wildlife."

Cypress - 5-17-2007 at 01:28 PM

widerone! :yes:

We've got to give 'em a break. :yes:

Don Alley

Baja Bernie - 5-17-2007 at 02:16 PM

Is anyone giving Roberto any support..............I know his dad has been a power behind catch and release, etc for years.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-17-2007 at 02:53 PM

Cypress:
Question? Then "Why is there a Good Dorado and Yellowtail Season this?

Question: For anyone to make a Statement "That the Sea will be Dead in 20 years" is Foolish!!

Question: What affect has the loss of any Species had on Japan?

The Sardines keep on coming Back.
The Marlin keep on going to Their Deep Hole, that no one can get too, and returning each year.
Yellowfin Tuna parts are still listed in Cat Food.

Is the best way to control Population, to prevent Food ,and let the People Die?
If Mad Cow Diesease wiped out the Cattle, What would we Eat??
How about a little "Faith and Hope" that things will get Better?

Anon The Preacher

The Sky is Falling!! The Sky is Falling!

Why not have a little "Faith and Hope"' that things just might get better?

Non The Preacher

Don Alley - 5-17-2007 at 03:03 PM

Bernie:

From the Billfish Foundation site, groups that are fighting the Norma:

Quote:

The groups supporting the people of Baja California Sur include the following: Sindicato De Propietarios De Embarcaciones De Pesca Deportiva De Los Cabos AC; Asociación Mexicana de Marinas Turísticas AC; Asociación Sudcaliforniana De Desarrolladores De Tiempo Compartido AC; Asociación De Hoteles De Los Cabos AC; Unión De Permisionarios De Carnada Viva De Cabo San Lucas; Camara Nacional De La industria De La Transformación De Los Cabos; Camara Nacional De Comercio De Los Cabos; Camara Nacional Restaurantera De Los Cabos; Union De Pescadores Rivereños De Los Cabos; Marina Fundadores; Sea Watch; and The Billfish Foundation (TBF).

Cypress - 5-17-2007 at 03:19 PM

Skeet. You're one heck-of- a good man, with a treasure of life experiences.

You're a Baja legend.

I would rather not disagree with you, but regarding the commercial fishing issue, there's a quantam leap between what a couple of pangas can take and that of a couple of factory ships working 24/7.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-18-2007 at 06:08 AM

Cypress: Look back at my Post concerning the taking of the Sharks by the Japanese Boats, and the destruction by the Vitamin market.
I was not referring to Pangas. The Shrimp Boats off of Loreto took Shrimp for years, The Shrimp came Back.!

No one seems to want to try and Answer the question? What difference will it make if a "Species' is Lost?? I think that where one is Lost, another will evolve.

We have not been able to Stop the Mosquitos, the Ants, The Flys, The Rattlesnakes!
I beleive that the Beleivers of Science Only Group of People do not have that ability to think that the "Supreme Being" may have something to do with Nature.
I refer you to the Human "Eye" or the "Tail of a Horse".

It appears to me , that a goodly amount of the Scare Tactics of the Do Gooder and the Eco-Nuts is based on the premise of "Fear"--A Technique used by the Strong to Control the Weak.

Survival of the Fitest is Alive and Well !!

Skeet/Loreto

Crusoe - 5-18-2007 at 06:49 AM

Sorry Skeet........This "SUPREME BIENG" croc of feces just does not play into this subject matter, in any way...... You use the phrase "Fear"--A Technique used by the Strong to Control the Weak. Well guess what??What do you think all religion is based on?.......There is alot of hard scientific evidence collected and agreed on by hundreds of Marine Bioligists that claim when you wipe out a species it does not return. There are many large areas in Puget Sound and in British Columbia that are dead zones with no living things left that were over fished for 100 years. Try as they might to estabish new fish runs, they will never recover. Its truly a sad situation and we humans never seem to learn from our previous mistakes.

Osprey - 5-18-2007 at 07:31 AM

Shark Norma 029

This is the third time around for this law. Seawatch site concerned people have sent over 20,000 letters so far through that site to the Mexican lawmakers.

One local warning struck a chord for me (I paraphrase):

“Currently there are 250 new shark permits being issued out of the Cabo San Lucas office of PESCA alone. The problem is that there will be no inspections or controls and there is no limit or observation of the bycatch: marlin, dorado, sailfish, turtles, etc. The longliners may sell/retain any bycatch. It is believed that if they set up a couple of longliners on the 88 bank, the Gordos, the Thetis, the Golden Gate, the Jaime it won’t take much time to wipe out the gamefish population in this area.”

Skeet/Loreto - 5-18-2007 at 08:01 AM

Crusoe: Don't be "Sorry'. Be Alive.

Still no Answer to the Question; What affect did the Loss of the Specie have on the World as it is today?

The Partial Loss of the Human Species does seem to have and effect---The Atomic Bomb over Japan. Saved many lives in the long Run of Things.

The Defeat of the N-zis.

The Defeat of North Korea save many lives for the South.

Vietnam: Lives lost after the War alone 3 Million. Species is still alive and Kicking.

I just happen to beleive that saving a Childs Life is more inportant than a Fish.It seems as if the Do Gooders and Eco- Nuts are into their attempts to Control the Masses through Fear are doing it for Their own Self-Interest.

The Sierra Club is a Prime Example.
I would suggest that the Do Gooders and Eco Nuts Join the Club and go to the Middle East and try to Teach their Children not to wrap Bombs around their Bellys.

As to Religion, at least most of the Ministers try to help the People "Help Themselves by teaching them how to better their Lives even with some Preaching. Africa is a good example

Again"What has the loss of a Fish Species done that has Changed the
World??

I will Await you answer with Abaited Breath.

Skeet/Loreto

Osprey - 5-18-2007 at 08:51 AM

Skeet, I disagree with you on this issue. I will defend your right to say what you believe. I will fight for your right of free speech. Since I'm a born fisherman I just won't fight very hard.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-18-2007 at 10:17 AM

Osprey: Good! If we were all like Me and Thee, would it not be a Strange place to Live.

It is difficult for me to see the benefit of "This Generation" Impose their Views on the Future Generations through Fear.
Have you read the Label on a Can of Groumet Cat Food ??
We could pass a Law to kill all Cats thereby killing the Market for the Shark and Tuna By Products. But you know as well as I that another Market would be Found. Maybe a Pill made of the By Products could be developed for the Humans.

We as Humans can control our Destiny-- Sharks and Fish Cannot.

The Human is the Stronger of the Species-

Skeet/Loreto

All Doze Species

MrBillM - 5-18-2007 at 01:06 PM

The value of a species and, therefore, the loss or gain is what effect that species has on the other living species.

It is ridiculous to waste our efforts on Mice, Birds and Insects whose existence isn't felt or known by other than a few obsessive people. The test for efforts to mitigate or prevent the loss of a particular species Should be what effect its loss would be to our environment, practical or esthetic.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-18-2007 at 03:09 PM

Maleria
West Nile Virus
Killer Bees
Termites

What would be the effect on the World today if the Tuna were Gone????

all those extinct species don't matter

flyfishinPam - 5-18-2007 at 03:10 PM

I'm with Skeet. Its more important to save the life of a child than a bunch of fish, lizards, whales or whatever.

Except that any of those species can be the key to saving a life or many lives, perhaps the life of a child you personally know and care about. What's to say that an endangered species doesn't contain a compound or precursor to one that can...cure cancers, or defeat AIDS, or alzheimer's or ???? Once that species is gone, that's it, there's no turning back. We know so little about what we destroy and kill.

Seriously if you had studied more hard science in your lifetime, placed less weight on beliefs and more on proven facts you would not expend so much energy on telling others not to give a damn. If we wanna save our planet, let us do it, you've already had your turn now its ours and personally I'd like to help clean up our mess and turn over a better place to my kids and grandkids.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-18-2007 at 03:38 PM

Finally some one had the Guts to step up to the Plate and give their Opinion!!!
Some in My Generation would say that the Young Generation owes Us.
I Don't!!
As I watch the Rape of Loreto by the Ugly Americans/Canadians, Americans running down America, I pause to reflect; What did my Generation do to/or fail to do to bring this Country to this Stage??
I tried to taech my Children Faith, Hope, Chairty, Responsibility, Honor, Kindness to Thy Neighbor, Objectivity, not to Lie, Cheat nor Steal.
Put my Life In Harms way by Fighting a War and being a Policeman. Trying to do some "Good" for my Fellow Man.
Finally I am realizing that this New Generation is on a Course of "Self Destruction and that the Next Generation will somehow, finally realize how Wrong the Previous Generation has been.

So Pam, you said it Right. The weak-minded will beleive in "Science" not People and go on with their inability to "Control their Desires and Keep their Passions within Due Bounds.
Why did I enlist and Fight a War just to make a Mess for you to Clean Up??
Why did I go to College to Learn to be Policeman, serve in South Central LA.
I Will not Apologize for trying to Help People in need.

But I do know when my words have fallen on Deaf Ears.

Good Luck

fishbuck - 5-18-2007 at 03:48 PM

Yes it's sounds all noble to put the life of a person before an animal.
But it seems all this saving of people has amounted to a massive illegal immigration problem for the good ole USofA. An invasion if you will.
So when these people fish out the SOC and wipe out one species after another then what. Where will they go. They won't be able to fish anymore. Maybe they can always sneak into the US and mooch off us.
So instead of the get rich quick schemes that they always cook up (like overfishing) how about sustainabilty for their own future. And the future of their own children so they don't end of sneaking across the border because "they have to support their family" Maybe they should figure out how to support the family first in their own country. You know before they create a family that they can't support.
Mexicans are suppose to have this family culture yet it doesn't work because so many of them are in poverty and starving. Why?
And you really want to help these people who are just going to continue this cycle over and over again?
6 billion people in the world and going up everyday.
I vote for the fish!

[Edited on 5-18-2007 by fishbuck]

Cypress - 5-18-2007 at 04:50 PM

There's no shortage of kids, but there's an increasing shortage of places to catch fish. :no:

Beware when any debate is turned into a "What about the kids issue".

Crusoe - 5-18-2007 at 06:01 PM

Fishbuck.......AMEN!!!!

aaaaahhhhhhh!!

k1w1 - 5-18-2007 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I beleive that the Beleivers of Science Only Group of People do not have that ability to think that the "Supreme Being" may have something to do with Nature.

Skeet/Loreto

wacko alert!!! WARNING WARNING danger Will Robinson!!

Don Alley - 5-18-2007 at 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k1w1
wacko alert!!! WARNING WARNING danger Will Robinson!!

Pin Ball Skeet

MrBillM - 5-19-2007 at 09:09 AM

Reading one of Skeet's rants is like watching the metal balls bounce back and forth in a Pin Ball Machine, taking off at odd angles until reaching the bottom.

It's illustrating that he's waiting for your response with "(A)baited" breath which gives an impression of "Mockery, Attack or torment with Insults, criticism, ridicule ". The traditionally correct term is "Bated Breath" which translates to what most people think they're saying i.e. waiting with held breath for a response.

"Shakespeare is the first writer known to use it, in The Merchant of Venice: “Shall I bend low and, in a bondman’s key, / With bated breath and whisp’ring humbleness, / Say this ...”. Nearly three centuries later, Mark Twain employed it in Tom Sawyer: “Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale”.

Of course, given the fact that the discussion is Fishing, Perhaps the "abaited" was a play on words. Maybe not.

Again, I will say that there is NO serious argument that Worldwide Fishing supplies have not been seriously depleted by over-fishing. One season of decent fishing doesn't negate the fact that there are species fished almost to extinction. The Atlantic Cod is one of the better-known cases and reached a crisis point when Canada had to severely restrict the catch to save it for future generations. Another sad example was the loss of fishery in the Philippines which resulted in Fishermen using Dynamite on the Coral Reefs to kill fish they couldn't otherwise get to.

Sadly, given past events, there will probably be NO Serious efforts to cure the problem of over-fishing until it is too late.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-19-2007 at 10:03 AM

As I have now passed my 76 Birthday, I have made arrangements for 1/2 of my Ashes to be spread over the Sea of Cortez so that I can watch over Loreto and make sure the Future Generation abides to what they have be told that they should Have.. Why not teach them the Bais of Life and let them decide!!
Still awaiting with "Baited Breath" the answer to my previous Question:
What effect, if any, has the loss of any Species had on the World, or maybe I should say "Humans" ??
I think that the Sharks have a better chance at Survival than Humans.

Gotta go Feed my Horses.

Mexitron - 5-19-2007 at 10:53 AM

In the grand scheme of things the loss of a species is generally insignificant and like Skeet says, nature fills a void. But I think the issue here is whether we are taking fish stocks below their population buffers...fish stocks that we as a society want to have around for the future, if possible. It is perhaps more a matter of aesthetics than necessity but there is truth in beauty too, no?

The ocean is like the prairie--if you've ever seen the few relatively virgin patches of Midwest prairie and compare it to what it is composed of now(Rye, Cheat Grass, etc)....well, if the same thing happens to the oceans we'll be eating Surf Perch and Catfish. Not that we can't survive on whatever invader species take over but many folks kind of like it the way it is now.

Natalie Ann - 5-19-2007 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
As I have now passed my 76 Birthday, I have made arrangements for 1/2 of my Ashes to be spread over the Sea of Cortez...

So Skeet... what are ya gonna have done with the other half?

Sharksbaja - 5-19-2007 at 11:39 AM

up, up and away? :rolleyes:

BajaBruno - 5-19-2007 at 11:54 AM

I really don't want to get involved in this whole environmental vs. Intelligent Design conversation, because I think it's a distraction from taking positive action, which is what each of us should take the time to do.

Cardon Man has been good enough to post a thread (Mexico sportfishermen, read and take action!) down the list from this one with a URL to SeaWatch which will allow you to write an email, or use their canned email, and have it sent automatically to sixty government officials.

That post has generated half the views of this one, unfortunately. I realize it isn't as much fun as engaging in pseudo-philosophy, but let's send the letters first, please, and then argue the merits of extinction afterwards.

Iflyfish - 5-19-2007 at 12:50 PM

Skeet wrote:

"What effect, if any, has the loss of any Species had on the World, or maybe I should say "Humans" ??"

If you ask the wrong question, you will come to the wrong conclusion.

The question is a specious question. There is no way of documenting the impact of something that has happened in relation to how it would have been if nothing had happened. I will not elaborate on the issue of specious questions, one can learn about them by studying logic and rhetoric.

By the way Skeet, when did you stop beating your wife?

I have added to this post a very interesting article that might be germane to the discussion. He argues for the legitimacy of advocacy for species based upon affective criteria. It is well stated so thought at least some might be interested.

Iflyfish

The Emotive in Animal Rights Discourse
By Thomas G. Kelch

In our Western way of thinking, rationality and cool deliberation are the talismans of truth, the holy grail of all sensible arguments. The emotive is dangerous, ‘feminine’ and irrational, an enemy of veracity, an evil to be avoided at all costs. And so it is in the discussion of animal rights issues in moral philosophy and the law. Most serious academic and legal writers on animal rights shun discussions of compassion and caring and empathy, and trade instead exclusively in rational argument and cold logic. Indeed, such writers often premise their discussions with self-commendation on the fact that their positions do not originate in passion, but solely in the dry and ordered realm of reason.

In moral thought, the schism between the emotive (for present purposes, compassion, caring and empathy), and the rational may be credited to the late 18th century German philosopher Immanuel Kant. In Kant’s moral theory, duty grounds morality and duties are discerned only through application of reason. On Kant’s moral battlefield, the proud flag of reason flies over the categorical imperative and all moral axioms worthy of respect. Emotions and feelings hold no ground. In our current legal system, the situation is no different; the emotive holds no sway on issues of rights, whether the subject of discussion is human or nonhuman.

Fear and Dichotomy
There is reason, I suppose, to be shy about claiming that animals should be holders of rights because, "I feel empathy towards animals," or "I am a compassionate person." The reason, of course, is the fear that one will not be taken seriously, that one will be characterized as a fuzzy sentimentalist whose arguments are not worthy of consideration. But apart from these political considerations, is it really necessary that serious discussion of animal rights issues be divorced from the feelings of compassion, caring and empathy that are, for most of us, among the reasons we believe that animals are holders of moral rights and should be holders of legal rights?

What is our fear of the emotive? It is, I believe, that in Western thought, reason and emotion are perceived as dichotomous and mutually exclusive. Reason is dispassionate, self legitimating and objective. This is the proper stuff of arguments, be they about animal rights or any other issue. The path of emotion, on the other hand, is rife with peril. Emotions are dangerous outbursts of rage, jealousy and the like. They are uncontrolled, subjective and prejudiced. Thoughts of this nature should not permeate serious discussions.

I do not believe this polarized view of reason and the emotions is accurate. Reason itself can lead us astray. We may, though applying reason, be unduly credulous or skeptical. We may inappropriately accept authority as fact. Moreover, emotions are not typically uncontrolled outbursts of rage or malevolence; rather, they are ordinarily the much more dull and diffuse feelings that are the inevitable background to each instant of our lives. Is it even possible to separate reason from emotion? Is it not the case that in all of our activities, whether they involve the application of reason or not, there is some element of emotion? Indeed, I must have some emotion to be motivated to do anything. Reason is inert. It is emotion that moves us. It is in a subtle mixture of reason and emotion that we live our lives. They coexist in our crania and cannot be separated as wheat from chaff.

Claiming Legitimacy
Even in our Western tradition we can find voices claiming legitimacy for the emotive in moral thought. David Hume, for example, claimed that the passions (emotions) were the fountainheads of all moral thought and that—try as we may—we cannot ascertain through reason the truth of any moral proposition. In fact, for Hume there is an innate moral sense that determines our perceptions of vice and virtue in the world. Arthur Schopenhauer too saw compassion, something he viewed as an element of human nature itself, as the root of morality. Morality, then, is felt, not judged.
Outside of this tradition there are others who hold that there is a place for the emotive in moral discourse. Most prominent are feminists. Though feminist thought tends to be inimical to traditional concepts of rights (though not all feminist thinkers eschew talk of "rights"), it is a basic tenet of feminism that compassion, caring and empathy are foundations of the moral world.

But surely the emotive should not be a part of the law and our notion of rights. Here, at least, we must be governed solely by reason. Again, I think we are misled. Emotion already plays a part in the law. When we provide for victims rights, we are expressing our compassion for the victim’s loss. When we speak of retribution as a ground for criminal penalties we are expressing our anger and indignation toward the perpetrator. We reduce penalties for crimes committed as a result of overheated emotions and mental disturbance. Even in property law we protect emotional attachments when we provide for special sorts of remedies for loss of or damage to family heirlooms.

This list could be expanded, but it is sufficient to note that the emotive already plays a part in our law. And so it should be when we speak of issues of moral and legal rights for animals. It is normal for us to feel compassion for animals and empathy for their suffering. Somehow, through evolution or rearing or a combination of the two, these feelings are a normal part of human nature that cannot be separately compartmentalized from our capacity to reason. This is not to say that we should reject reason. Rather, we must recognize that the emotive cannot be parsed out from reason and that our emotions can be legitimate grounds for moral and legal arguments. Thus, in the area of animal rights, our emotions, our feelings of compassion, caring and empathy, should count as genuine reasons for granting moral and legal rights to animals.

Thomas G. Kelch is a professor of law at Whittier Law School in Costa Mesa, California. This article is based, in part, on a more detailed treatment of this issue in the author’s article, "The Role of the Rational and the Emotive in a Theory of Animal Rights" in 27 Boston College Environmental Affairs Law Review 1 (2000).

Better question...

Dave - 5-19-2007 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Natalie Ann

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
As I have now passed my 76 Birthday, I have made arrangements for 1/2 of my Ashes to be spread over the Sea of Cortez...

So Skeet... what are ya gonna have done with the other half?

Which half?

Cypress - 5-19-2007 at 02:31 PM

I've got as good a sense of humor as most, but all this BS about then and now etc., with factory ships being unleashed on the Sea Of Cortez, isn't a joking matter. :?:

About tomorrow or next year, if I can't find some fish to catch they just as well ice me down with the by catch. :no:

backninedan - 5-19-2007 at 03:22 PM

Skeet, someone mentioned the possibility of a species loss being linked to an alzheimers cure.... Think about it..

Skeet/Loreto - 5-19-2007 at 03:34 PM

Mexitron:What Prarie are you talking about?? I live in the Texas Panhandle on the Caprock{The Largest piece of Flat Land in the World} The Buffalo Grass is still Abundant. Thousand's of Cattle still Graze this area, and the Grass still keeps Growing. The Wildlife is beyond Belief. the Water is Deep and Clear, the Air is Clean.

Many of the People who try to Foster their Ideas on the unsuspecting use Scare Tactics, Phony Stats and information to overdue many of the "Good Things" that should be of Concern.

After Fishing and Living on the Sea of Cortez, I donot think that the new Shark program will have the results that are claimed, It very well may reduce the Numbers, but the Shark will come Back, just as they have after the taking for Vitamins, the Japanese Boats, and the Panga Fisherman.

Nat: The other half will be spread on the Texas Panhandle where I can watch the Eagles Soar, The Bob Whites Whistle, The Deer and Turkeys roaming, the Cattle Grazing, The Armadillo Grubbing, and the Clear Air Blowing.
Also can keep a Watch on my Horses!

I hope that you will all be Blessed as I have in my Short Life. God Willing and the Creeks Don't Rise we can again discuss this issue in 20 years.

Skeet/Loreto

Osprey - 5-19-2007 at 03:35 PM

Maybe a lightbulb will go on somewhere in Mexico City! Somebody will ask the question "Does it make any sense to spend 2.2 billion dollars on the Escalera Nautica (Sea of Cortez Project), to attract boating fishermen from the U.S., then sell all the fish?

Skeet/Loreto - 5-19-2007 at 03:39 PM

BacknineDan:
Someone told me when I was 6 years old that "Masterbation" would cause Hair to grow out of the Palm of my Hand!!

I am still waiting!!!

Article in Tribuna

bajajudy - 5-19-2007 at 03:50 PM

http://www.tribunadeloscabos.com.mx/newpage/index.cfm?op=por...

[Edited on 5-19-2007 by bajajudy]

woody with a view - 5-19-2007 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Maybe a lightbulb will go on somewhere in Mexico City! Somebody will ask the question "Does it make any sense to spend 2.2 billion dollars on the Escalera Nautica (Sea of Cortez Project), to attract boating fishermen from the U.S., then sell all the fish?

great observation, Osprey. maybe this sentence should be included in EVERY email to the stupid mexican hoars-i mean politicians!

[Edited on 5-19-2007 by woody in ob]

Mexitron - 5-19-2007 at 07:45 PM

Skeet--glad to hear the High Plains prairie is still hanging in there...there's some beautiful patches of lower Midwest prairie here in Ft. Worth but the vast majority of it is less specious than it once was...

Iflyfish - 5-20-2007 at 12:37 AM

Skeet,

You said: "What effect, if any, has the loss of any Species had on the World, or maybe I should say "Humans" ??" in many of your posts.

You proudly challenged someone to answer that question as a response to the very thoughtful comments of others on this list. I provided a very thoughtful and direct response to your question.

Ya know, it's really interesting that you rant about no one responding to your challenge and then when I do.............silence. It is deafening.

I find it is common for those who profess to be conservatives that they often resort to specious logic and redefinition of problems and are in the end not really conservative at all, but bow to the gods of industry and commerce. Rush Limbaugh is a master of this sort of dialogue, redefinition and specious logic and the country and our public discourse has suffered greatly from it.

When their faulty logic and redefinitions are challenged.......silence. Or their next recourse is to resort to name calling.

Iflyfish

Sharksbaja - 5-20-2007 at 12:55 AM

Hey that's not fair Flyfish. Your termiology is something most have to look up. That's a good thing because it explains so much that is so hard to put to words. Skeet was blessed with his ability to include a higher authority in many of his passionate posts. That's ok, it's just his opinion.
Thank god and his too, that many of us realize living things are finite on this planet. To assume anything else would be, well, sacreligious in my book.

From CNN.. not extinct afterall

bajajudy - 5-20-2007 at 07:32 AM

Angler catches 'prehistoric' fish
POSTED: 1306 GMT (2106 HKT), May 20, 2007

JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) -- An Indonesian angler caught a fish once thought to have disappeared along with the dinosaurs and held it in a quarantined pool until it died 17 hours later, a biologist said Sunday.

The coelacanth fish was thought to have become extinct 65 million years ago until one was found in 1938 off Africa's coast. The discovery of the so-called "living fossil" ignited worldwide interest.

Several other specimens have since been found, including one in 1998 in waters off the Indonesian island of Sulawesi, where Justinus Lahama also hooked his 1.3-meter (4-foot), 50-kilogram (110-pound) fish early Saturday.

The fisherman pulled it from waters near Bunaken National Marine Park, which has some of the highest levels of marine biodiversity in the world and is a popular diving spot for tourists, marine biologist Lucky Lumingas said.

Lumingas classified the fish as Coelacanth Latemeria, a powerful predator with highly mobile, limb-like fins. It is usually about 5 feet (1.5 meters) long and weighs around 45 kilograms (100 pounds). Unlike most other fish, it gives birth to live young rather than laying eggs.

Lumingas, who works with the local Sam Ratulangi University, said it was "extraordinary" the fish survived for 17 hours in a quarantined pool.

"The fish should have died within two hours because this species only lives in deep, cold-sea environment at a depth of at least 60 meters (200 feet)," he said, adding that his university would closely study the carcass.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2007 at 07:33 AM

Iflyfish:

Maybe it would have been better to ask "Where is the Proof"?
Being trained to look for "Facts" have been a part of my Life.

Your Post of anothers Words was well Taken.
It does appear to me that "Scare Tactics" are based on Emotion and not Facts.
I was fishing in the Bay at Seattle the day the Commercials were allowed in to Fish, they promptly took all the True Cod away. That is Fact.

Fly fish, instead of Post of others Words, Why not attempt to answer with Facts to support your Position.?

Skeet/Loreto
What effect did that Act have on the the Bay?

Facts do not seem to Turn on People to a Cause- Emotion seems to work better like Stats which attempt to prove, or sway people to a Cause.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2007 at 07:51 AM

Iflyfish:
Cause and effect.
In my humble Opinion one of the Major Causes of the Loss of a Species in the Sea of Cortez was caused by the taking of the Shrimp from the North Portion of the Sea{Totorova} SP} which was Helped more by the Keeping the Colorado River from Flowing into the Sea.
Why??
Because the Human Species, mostly from Southern California would not have a place to spent their weekends Boating, Fishing, Taking their Clothes off to make Porno Movies at Lake Havasu City.
Fish just think "What Good" could be done if we let a lot more of the Colo. River return the Nutrients to the Sea of Cortez?

I had much rather Fish than watch a Porno!

Skeet/Loreto

Osprey - 5-20-2007 at 08:35 AM

No Guns

We don’t use guns much anymore when we take somebody’s land or ocean. We just declare Manifest Destiny, cede (plant the flag) or buy. It would be great fun to witness a grand congress of lawmakers from the U.S. and Mexico convening to discuss “What should be done with the Gulf of California?”

The U.S. might well argue that it should control the little Sea. Mexicans might counter that their neighbors to the north could ruin it better, faster than Mexico. There might be some interesting banter about Yellowstone National Park, the passenger pigeon and the Tutuava. Mexico’s query “How (and more importantly why) did you kill 4 billion birds in such a short time, Señores?”

Our blushing reps might take the moment to retire to the cloakroom for a meeting of some kind. On their return they might be surprised to see Skeet in the front row of the area set aside for the Mexican delegation. We would ask for a recess so we could locate Buffalo Ted Turner and (the other Ted (Nugent)).

Back in the cloakroom somebody might try to gain support for a movement to buy up all the longline fishing permits from the current holders. How much could it be? Compared to Alaska or Lousiana it would probably be chump change. Just a thought.

pargo - 5-20-2007 at 09:07 AM

OH WOW, OH MAN!!!

What the hell is going on with you people? Especially you Skeet/Loreto ESQ. Been reading your posts for awhile and i have great respect for you. You are a man of great accomplisment.."You are a gentle man and a scholar, you own a mansion and a yaght "

" what effect did the commercials have on wiping out the cod in peugot"
" What effect has the loss of any species had on the world"
Nothing apparently except for maybe....THEY'RE FREEKIN GONE!!!
How do you justify that dude? ....It's just wrong thats all there is to it!
What happened to just being wrong, manning up and doing something about it. Instead of finding excuses to justify or question the validity of such matters. You know it's a bad situation Skeet, inside of you, you know it is, regardless of the effects.

Iflyfish - 5-20-2007 at 09:12 AM

Osprey,

Good one!

The Nature Conservancy has been successfully employing the strategy of buying land to preserve it from development.

You have a very good idea there! Buy the permits.

Ifyfish

Iflyfish - 5-20-2007 at 09:29 AM

Skeet,

You posted "Being trained to look for "Facts" have been a part of my Life."

I respect and admire the time that you have spent of your precious life serving others. Not many of us would be willing to be a policeman. I was a deputy sheriff for a few years and saw death and ignorance up real close and personal. I have since then been very grateful that there are people willing to do this very difficult and challenging work.

I would point out that sometimes looking at "facts" can blind us to a larger picture. You will no doubt have discovered this while doing investigations. I once took on a GO master, Chinese game, simple really, on the surface, just black and white stones, surround your opponent and you win, they lose. I thought I was kicking his can really good as I focused on the placement of each stone. I failed to look at the larger view, the entire board. While I was cornering and surrounding little piles of his stones, he had successfully surrounded the board! Lesson learned.

I was pleased to see you noticed the demise of the Tutuava and I appreciate your thinking regarding the causes. I had the pleasure of catching one of these magnificent fish in the 1970s, it was beautiful and delicious. I miss that fish, I believe that many do. I do not know what the larger affect of toppling that domino had in relation to the rest of the environment. However, like your description of the damming of the Colorado stopping the river, stopping nutrient flow, catching all the shrimp etc. affecting the loss of this species, I would imagine that the dominoes down line of the Tutuava were also affected. This is how ecosystems work. We disrupt them at our own peril.

Thank you for responding to my post.

Iflyfish

A Simple Answer

MrBillM - 5-20-2007 at 09:36 AM

Thanks to an earlier post, I now know the remedy for the problem.

We all need to wear a Black Ribbon. We should have realized that sooner. It has been so effective in solving so many other problems.

I can handle that.

disaster followup

mike odell - 5-20-2007 at 10:11 AM

We fished day before yesterday, ran 40 mile south of Punta Colorada Hotel to pick up our edible ration of football tuna,
we were first on the bite. Lot of porpise,found 4 dead ones floating,left behind like trash from the damned tuna boat.
Very sad indeed. Sorta dampend the spirts for the otherwise nice day. Took pictures of the porpoise but dont know how to post them yet. All the rest of the day, not a thing happening. Didn't see the rapists.
Cant find a site on google on how to make your own hand held stinger missles! :fire:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2007 at 11:08 AM

Pargo: I 0wna Home on 5 Acres in the Texas Panhandle- No Yacht- Do have a 19/8 Ft. Arkansas Travelier with a 175 I/o Boat for sale on a Trailer for $2500.

First: I think that we should teach the New Generation how to Fight and Work.
Second: I cannot agree that the Posting of Scare Tactics will solve the Problem.

It may be when the Population grows and the Fish is nearly gone, then maybe the Human Species will do something about it.
We cannot make the Future over in our own Image!

Osprey: No! I would not be in the Same room with the Likes of Ted Turner!!
I have had my run in with that Slob on Ten Mile Creek in Montana when he Riff Rafted to try to keep me from Fishing.

Skeet/Loreto

fishbuck - 5-20-2007 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Iflyfish:
Cause and effect.
In my humble Opinion one of the Major Causes of the Loss of a Species in the Sea of Cortez was caused by the taking of the Shrimp from the North Portion of the Sea{Totorova} SP} which was Helped more by the Keeping the Colorado River from Flowing into the Sea.
Why??
Because the Human Species, mostly from Southern California would not have a place to spent their weekends Boating, Fishing, Taking their Clothes off to make Porno Movies at Lake Havasu City.
Fish just think "What Good" could be done if we let a lot more of the Colo. River return the Nutrients to the Sea of Cortez?

I had much rather Fish than watch a Porno!

Skeet/Loreto

Can't we have fish and porno?
I think the Tortuava got wipe out because thwy were easy to catch in nets and the tatsted too darn good. But I believe they are making a comeback and may be a viable fish stock in the future.
There's no doubt that damming the Colorado had a negative impact. But that is a mistake made long in the past and unlikely to be undone.
But that certainly does not justify making more bad decisions and repeating mistakes like overfishing by the mexico commercial fleet.
Let's try to stay focused here.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-20-2007 at 05:50 PM

Fishbuck: Very Good Words.
I would Hope that some of these People who would really like to do something Worthwhile would Consider the Following:

Put their Pressure on Canada to sell their Excess Water to be sent down the Colo. River, used by the States for Power, then contuine to Baja and into the Sea of Cortez. That is something that could be done!
Gotta Go- Joel Osteen is coming on and I sure like his Positive Attitude about Life.

Skeet/Loreto

fishbuck - 5-20-2007 at 10:43 PM

Here's a little article about the Totuava. Maybe if we red this we can help prevent history from repeating.

Totuava, Cynoscion macdonaldi
Address:http://www.viabaja.com/Baja1/Totuava.htm

Cypress - 5-21-2007 at 05:40 AM

Thanks for sharing the article fishbuck.

Skeet Shots

MrBillM - 5-21-2007 at 08:55 AM

It is interesting to read the extent to which Skeet's Evangelical thought process influences his view of every subject, in this case the Dams on the Colorado River.

Those Dams were built for ONE reason only. That reason was the need for Hydroelectric power. A secondary consideration was control of the water supply. Recreational use (including Porno Movies, I guess) was simply a result of the lakes creation.

Anyone (myself included) who, in the 1950s, visited Lake Mead, Lake Havasu and (later) Lake Powell, clearly knows that the recreational activities on the lake were minor. Lake Mead developed quicker because it was near to a moderate population center. Lake Havasu was truly primitive, especially on the California side. Havasu City was basically created as a land hustle by the McCullough Corporation.

bajalou - 5-21-2007 at 09:03 AM

Another big push for the Colorado river dams (and those on many other rivers) is flood control. Lots of homes etc washed away by the periodic flooding of the Colo.

Slowmad - 5-21-2007 at 11:15 AM

A few hundred Nomads clicking on this won't hurt.
It's fast and easy.

http://www.seawatch.org/mail_campaign/norma_letter.php

Slowmad - 5-21-2007 at 11:29 AM

Just noticed the previous posting of the link...lo siento, compañeros.
But it's important.

No Argument Lou

MrBillM - 5-21-2007 at 05:30 PM

When I mentioned Control of the Water Supply I was thinking in terms of both controlling the periodic flooding and mitigating the effects of Drought years on the Water users. My error was in not explaining in better detail.

Osprey - 5-21-2007 at 05:42 PM

Mr. Bill, how much fishing do you do these days? How much new thinking do you do these days? Maybe you're just an echo from the guys in the bleachers who really never played the game.

Capt. George - 5-21-2007 at 06:02 PM

The great influx of non-fishing baby boomers buying up and creating gated communities in Baja will lessen the importance of fish and fishermen..bring more golf balls, leave your own balls at home.

Have seen it happen many times in the Northeast, we will (and are) becoming an expendable commodity in Baja and the Mexican governments scheme of things...

Everyone knows more money can be made through sport fishing then the commercial rape of the Sea of Cortez, but my friends, that makes it harder for the thieves in Mexico City to get their hands on it.

It's a slippery slide on a downward slope and there ain't gonna be no back peddling. So sad.

Crusoe - 5-22-2007 at 07:13 AM

OH YES CAPT. GEORGE........How right you are. After all, it is Mexico!! ++C++

Cypress - 5-22-2007 at 07:28 AM

Catch information shows that 10% of the sports fishermen catch 90% of the fish. :spingrin:

They contribute a lot more $ to the local economy than a couple of factory ships based in Japan.

Osprey - 5-22-2007 at 07:50 AM

In the U.S. here's the way the revenues stack up for fishing

1. commercial = 9.9 billion dollars supporting 126,000 jobs

2. salt water recreational = 34 billion dollars supporting 360,000 jobs

source: Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership

Slowmad - 5-22-2007 at 09:15 AM

It's official: This thread has devolved into a bunch of old mossbacks banging their canes on the porch.

Conclusions ?

MrBillM - 5-22-2007 at 09:27 AM

Although I tend to think I'm beyond surprise, a comment will come along and surprise me again.

WHAT in my measured comments, would provoke Osprey to assume that I have a negative attitude towards Sport Fishing ? The comments themselves only questioned what statistics there were available to support the contention that the degradation of the Sport Fishery would have a substantial negative effect on Foreign Dollars in Baja. It seems a reasoned, rational question. I don't know, but having witnessed the direction Baja is heading, it seems that Sport Fishing will become a smaller contributor by percentage as time goes on.

How much Fishing do I do today ? Due to back problems, a heck of a lot less than I would like. I've been Fresh-Water fishing since I was 10 years or less and I've fished the Pacific off of Southern California from piers, barges (Redondo Beach) and boats (commercial and my own) out to Catalina and San Clemente Islands since about the same age. I still remember fishing off of Ensenada in the late 50s when you could fill the boat with Yellowtail and Barracuda at will. Time and again we made trips to San Felipe to fish from the rented Pangas.

I wish nothing but the best for the Sport Fishing Industry and the people who enjoy it. Nonetheless, facts are facts and wishing won't make them different. Others said that Mexico was making a big mistake that would result in a net loss of Foreign revenue. I questioned what factual Knowledge we had to support that analysis.

Talk about shooting the messenger.

Osprey - 5-22-2007 at 09:39 AM

Slowmad, us old Crank Yankers live to make you whipper snappers unhappy and bored. One day, if you still have your faculties, a porch, a cane, you can try it.

Slowmad - 5-22-2007 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Slowmad, us old Crank Yankers live to make you whipper snappers unhappy and bored. One day, if you still have your faculties, a porch, a cane, you can try it.

Touché.

wilderone - 5-22-2007 at 10:28 AM

Analysis and factual knowledge abundant:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:A1yg7cnCHu0J:billfish.org/files/A%2520Short%2520Review%2520of%2520Existing%2520Scientific%2520Justification%2520of %2520the%2520B.doc+statistics,+baja+ca,+sportfishing&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

wilderone - 5-22-2007 at 10:47 AM

Here it is in text. Now imagine all the newly permitted boats which hope to take advantage of the new regs; all the unpermitted boats, and all the existing permits - all within the sportfishers' range. I think it's safe to assume the by-catch will be wasted, at least in any event, not available for the sportfisherman. The past protections are now gone when they're needed the most.

A Short Review of Existing Scientific Justification of the Fisheries
Benefits of Mexico’s Fifty Mile and Core Area Conservation Zones. April 26, 2004
Russell S. Nelson, PhD1, The Billfish Foundation
Introduction : Between 1984 and 1987 Mexico established reserve areas extending fifty miles from the nation’s coast and two larger “core area” conservation zones (off Cabo San Lucas and Salina Cruz) in which the commercial utilization of certain species of fish ( sailfish, striped marlin, blue marlin, black marlin, swordfish, dolphinfish, roosterfish and tarpon) was prohibited. These areas were established to provide extra protection to these fish species upon which Mexico’s sport fishing industry is heavily dependent. In recent months controversy over proposed regulation of longline and drift gillnet gear proposed in a new shark management plan (Norma 029), has called into question the justification for maintaining these zones. In this short report we review the history of longline exploitation of the pelagic apex predator fishes off Mexico’s west coast and existing research which is relevant to the biological implications of increasing commercial fishing effort in the conservation zones.
History of exploitation : The use of high seas longline gear began with the expansion of Japanese distant waters fleets beginning in the early 1950s. Japanese longliners began accessing resources off the west coast of Mexico in 1964 and continued fishing within 200 miles of the coast until the late 1980s, with fishing effort continuing beyond 200 miles through the present. Attachment 1 shows the historical catch-per-unit-effort (CPUE) for tunas and billfishes of the Japanese high seas longline fleet over this period. CPUE off Mexico’s Pacific coast peaked in the early 1960s at rates of 3-4 tuna and billfish per 100 hooks and recent years have seen catches within 600 miles of the coast at rates of 1-2 fish per 100 hooks. This data is consistent with the overall observed reductions in CPUE for tunas, billfish and sharks in the larger sub-Tropical Pacific on the order of approximately 50% to 90% (Figure 1) (Myers and Worm 2003). Landings data from the IATTC for blue and black marlin show similar declines over the last decade (Figure 2 and 3). United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization catch data from this period also document the significant reductions in billfish catch across this time (FAO 2003)
This long history of exploitation and the apparent reduction in CPUE over this period of time lent support to Mexico’s efforts in the 1980s to end the cooperative fishing agreement which allowed Japan to fish within the 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). Squires and Au (1988) studied the effects of this Japanese fishing effort on catch rates of the Cabo San Lucas based sports fishing fleets. They concluded that the longline effort was causing a localized depletion of striped marlin in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Baja and Baja California Sur, and that this depletion was the source of reduced catch rates by the Cabo sports fleet. The results of this unique study were used to support the establishment of the Core Area Conservation Zones. The marlin resources of the Mexican Pacific have been subject to a long history of longline fishing with commiserate declines in stocks. The only significant conservation regulations in place for these fishes are the 50 mile protected zone and the Core Area closures.
Unfortunately an adequate and accurate time series of Mexican commercial or recreational catch statistics does not exist (Ramirez 1988; Sala et al 2004) from which to analyze the effects of fishing on a finer scale. However, anecdotal interview data taken from sport fishing captains and commercial fishers (SEAWATCH 2004) show opinions consistent with overall reductions of apex predator species (marlins, swordfish, tunas, sharks) in the waters of the Baja Pacific and Gulf of California on the order of the 50% to 90% reported by Myers and Worm for the entire sub-Tropical Pacific.
Status of striped marlin : As of this writing there exists no definitive assessment of the status of striped marlin stocks in the eastern Pacific. Recent assessment work by staff of the Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission indicates that information is needed to define the geographic distribution of this species in the eastern Pacific (Robin Lewis 2003). If a single striped marlin stock exists models indicate that the stock biomass is approximately that which will sustain Maximum Sustainable Yield (MSY). If separate stocks exist north and south of the Equator the southern stock is fully exploited and the northern stock is seriously overfished and has been reduced to about 50% of the level that will support MSY. At present ongoing genetics research and tagging efforts are being undertaken to address this question. Stock status of striped marlin is uncertain, but the majority of the data indicates that at best, the species is fully exploited, at worst seriously overfished, and additional fishing effort and mortality on the species is not warranted.

Two ongoing research efforts are yielding information which is useful in considering the management needs of striped marlin in Mexico. Southern California U.S.A. marks the northern limit for the species in the eastern Pacific. The striped marlin which migrate to that area in the late summer months are believed to come from Mexico. CPUE in the recreational fishery in southern California has declined consistently over the last 30 years (Nelson 2004). Figure 4 shows these historical trends from long term data sets maintained by angling clubs and

a striped marlin tournament in southern California. All three data sets indicate a decline in numbers. Weight data taken from the Avalon Tuna Club shows a similar decline in annual average weight and the frequency of large (> 200 pounds) fish over the same 30 year period (Nelson 2004). Such declines in abundance and mean size of fish are singularly accurate indicators of overfishing (Dayton et al 2002).
Over the past three years detachable satellite transmitting tags have been placed on 146 striped marlin in the Pacific, with 115 of these placed on fish taken at Bahia Magdelena (Domeir 2004). These tags are programmed to remain attached to a fish for a predetermined period of time and then to release. Upon release the tags float to the surface and transmit via satellite information on the geographic and depth movements of the fish while tagged. Figure 5 shows the area in which all 115 striped marlin tagged off Baja traveled during 1 to 289 days at liberty. The majority of the fish were at large for more than 90 days. No fish traveled further south than the Guatemala border. The fact that no fish were observed moving north to southern California is likely an artifact of the November and December tagging effort. Of five striped marlin tagged in Ecuador and one in Costa Rica no northward movement has been observed into the area utilized by the fish tagged off Mexico. Other tagging efforts in the western Pacific similarly reveal that striped marlin seem to generally form localized groups or stocks associated with major land masses (Domeir 2004).
We can conclude a few things from these two new pieces of information. The declining CPUE in southern California would be consistent with preliminary IATTC modeling results indicating an overfished northern stock of striped marlin in the eastern Pacific. The tagging data also seems to support the fact that there is a discreet stock of fish remaining north of Central America. While not absolutely conclusive this information does also support a cautious approach to managing striped marlin.
The satellite tagging data is clearly conclusive of one point. The striped marlin which support Mexico’s sport fisheries are almost entirely under the control of Mexican management. The fish do move far offshore, but seem to maintain a consistent latitudinal affinity with Mexico’s northern and southern borders. Even the present 50 mile conservation zone serves to protect striped marlin in only a narrow part of their range off Mexico. Clearly the actions taken by Mexico will have the paramount impacts on the abundance of this group or stock of fish.
The future health of this resource lies in Mexico’s hands.

Status of the fisheries of the Sea of Cortez
Recently Sala et al (2004) have documented the shift in fisheries within the Sea of Cortez from large, long-live pelagic and demersal species to lower food web species of lesser commercial value (Figure 6). The declines they documented resulted from dramatic increases in fishing effort in the 1970s and early 1980s.

Figure 7 shows the shifts in catches by trophic level and size between 1970 and the present. This fishing down the food web phenomena has been described for other overfished ocean ecosystems around the world (Pauly et al 1998).
In documenting the general decline in trophic level and mean size in these fisheries the authors conclude: “The overall patterns of species shifts, and decline of CPUE and mean trophic level indicate that coastal fisheries in the southern Gulf of California are unsustainable.” The authors contend that immediate reductions in fishing effort and increased enforcement of existing regulations are needed to restore these stocks to sustainable levels.
The trend in stock abundance seen here is the same as that seen for the previously described fisheries for marlin and other apex predators.

Conclusions : Although a lack of adequate fisheries dependent data precludes the use of most quantitative assessment techniques for the species of concern in Mexican Pacific waters, the overriding conclusion that can be drawn from the limited existing data is that further increases in fishing effort are ill advised. Further, if Mexico is to support sustainable production of commercial and sport fisheries in these waters, reductions in effort and fishing mortality will be necessary.
Clearly any actions taken to increase effort and mortality on these stocks will have negative consequences for the future of Mexico’s sport fishing fleets and the production of food. An expansion of effort within the historically protected 50 mile zones and Core Areas will increase the risk of collapse of these valuable resources.

mike odell - 5-22-2007 at 07:58 PM

Another update,
On the the Baja Pony express,
One long time resident Mossy back Fogy, says in his sage wisdom to the gringo masses, Oh! Shat! what ever you do, dont physicaly get involved in protesting this New fishiing rule,Imigration is watching!!!!!!!!! But I do support all the effort as I fish too! To which I repy ,Up Yours With A Rusty Boathook!! Im not ready to turn my Penn 50 wides into toilet paper holders as was suggested today.
And also Up Yours El Migre!
:mad:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-23-2007 at 05:59 AM

"YOUTH THINKS ITS HAVING FUN. AGE KNOWS WHEN IT IS"

Skeet/Loreto - 5-23-2007 at 08:36 AM

A suggestion on "How to stop the Physical Acts aganist Fishing with very Little effort;
Several years ago at the Annual RattleSnake Festival Protesters showed up to try and make a Statement about the Catching and Eating and SKinning the Rattlers.
On the Night following the First Day of Protest there appeared in the Vehicles and Motels Rooms of the Protesters, several very Large and Active Rattlers.

Got their Attention--They left with their Tails between their Legs.

Rattler Attacks

MrBillM - 5-23-2007 at 08:51 AM

I hate to nitpick on consistency, but Skeet appears to be not only condoning, but lauding, a very Un-Christian act.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-23-2007 at 11:45 AM

"If you are going To Dance, You must Pay the Fiddler"!!

Sharksbaja - 5-23-2007 at 11:52 AM

What? Snakecharming? :lol:

What religion is that anyhoo? :saint:

Paulina - 5-23-2007 at 12:05 PM

So let me get this straight, if I protest the Shark Norm, then I should always look the doors to my vehicle and stay way from motels otherwise I might be a victim of large and active bycatch?

If I choose to dance, I'll bring my own music. Skeet can keep his fiddling to himself.

P<*)))><

Hook - 5-23-2007 at 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge

Quote:

Originally posted by mike odell
Im not ready to turn my Penn 50 wides into toilet paper holders as was suggested today.
:mad:

Can't blame you there, although the Cabo would be a very nice bathroom! Ouch!
Anybody turtled any boats on the can lately at Rcho. Leonero or am I the last idiot to do that? :tumble:

[Edited on 5-23-2007 by Don Jorge]

THAT sounds like a good U2U story.

Boat is still at Rincon...........I'm out of Vaseline, can you help?

Hook - 5-23-2007 at 08:46 PM

I will perform an old Indian ghost dance before bed, Jorge.

Get em.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-24-2007 at 06:17 AM

Trigger Fish would do a right Smart Job on their Skinny Butts!
Has great Teeth for Biting their Butts.

beachbum1A - 5-24-2007 at 07:21 AM

In protest of SHARK NOM-029 I sent off emails to all the addresses suggested and look below to see what I received back a couple of days later! Can you believe this @orse @hit!! It also included an attachment in Spanish which I couldn't read and think it's probably the Spanish version of this same one.

DEAR MR./ MS.:

I would like to inform you the federal government throughout CONAPESCA has elaborate and publish the NOM-029 to promote the sustainable exploitation of sharks and rays and to contribute with the conservation of elasmobranches and other bycatch species.

The NOM-029 is an obligation for owners of sharks and rays permits or authorizations and for all those who catch these species incidentally.

Before the NOM-029, there was no regulation for the exploitation of those fisheries (just some administrative dispositions to don´t increase the fishing effort). Any commercial fishermen could fish anywhere any time.

The NOM-029 includes areas and fishing gear restrictions that will help out not only to promote the conservation of sharks, rays and bycatch species, but also to benefit all stakeholders (including commercial and reacreative
fishermen) and reduce the conflicts among them.

In addition, the NOM-029 is also an international accomplishment with FAO.

For these reasons, I want to tell you that the NOM-029 is a strategic tool for taking care of our natural resources and to avoid the overexplotation of sharks, rays and other bycatch species.

The Federal Government will be following the impacts of the NOM- 029 in order to make sure that our measures promote the conservation and sustainable exploitation of marine resources.

There is wrong information and misunderstandings about the NOM-029, please don' support it.

*****
Héctor Ulises Estrada Ley
Subdirector de Comunicación Social
[Comunicación Social/Diseño e Imagen, Mercadotecnia y Publicidad]
t. 915.69.00 e. 1122 f . 1106

Don Alley - 5-24-2007 at 08:35 AM

The commercials have been trying for years to get inside the 50 mile limit and inside the Sea of Cortez to take dorado and billfish.

Now they have suceeded by loading NOM 029 with a coat of greenwash.

Has anyone seen any defense of NOM 029 that does not ignore the removal of the 50 mile limit and the inclusion of billfish and dorado as bycatch? :rolleyes:

And my guess is that we will continue to be able to smell the nearby decaying carcasses of small, undersized sharks while on the white sand beaches of our so-called Marine Park at Loreto.

Cypress - 5-24-2007 at 12:00 PM

Oh yea! I'll take all the bycatch I can get.

Once it's caught it's pretty much bye-bye, no matter how you you slice it.

CaboRon - 6-6-2007 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
widerone! :yes:

We've got to give 'em a break. :yes:

Even though it may already be too late .... that shouldn't stop us from doing all we can to slow it down ..... although , I do believe the search for protein for those six billion on this planet is not going to abate.... God, I pray I'm wrong. CaboRon :cool: