BajaNomad - Score Responsibility

Score Responsibility

tripledigitken - 6-4-2007 at 04:12 PM

I was discussing off-roading in Baja with an old veteran recently. He made the statement that Score (Sal) in their agreements to race in Baja had a responsibilty to grade the roads after a race.

I found this hard to believe. Will any of you that are familar with Score confirm or dispute this?

While talking about this with this gentleman we both agreed that 800 HP trucks do tear up the roads, in many places leaving 2 tracks sometimes 1 foot deep. Being a 2 wheel enthusiast, that can spell disaster in trying to get out of the way of oncoming traffic.

Here comes the question..................Should Score have the responsibility (if they don't allready) to regrade the course? I know what a large expense this would be. Is it fair to degrade roads that get so little maintenance in the first place.

Ken

mtgoat666 - 6-4-2007 at 04:59 PM

Of course they should regrade the roads. It has been irresponsible of them to never have done it in the past. Also irresponsible to do this in Mexico, after saner heads banned such destructive racing in US a long time ago. Bunch of US boys going to mexico to practice a hobby (this is no sport) no sane land owner or manager allows in the US.

TMW - 6-4-2007 at 05:48 PM

It is my understanding that SCORE negociates thru their lawyer in Ensenada with the city that host the race and the Ejidos the course runs on. Bajalou pointed out that the landowners in San Felipe were not paid by the Tourist Bureau in Ensenada. I am assuming that SCORE pays the Bureau and they are suppost to pay the landowners. SCORE pays $75 per racer to the Ejidos. 500 racers is $37,500. The city may kick in more as necessary to keep the race on. It has been said many times that SCORE was going to grade a road but that never happened that I know of. I don't think SCORE wants to get involved with that type stuff. If the locals want it graded then the locals will need to grade it with the money they are paid or race money set aside for doing so.

When Mike Leon of Mike's Sky Ranch was alive he graded the roads into his place on a regular basis. Mike Jr doesn't and that's why he doesn't get the RV business anymore and why the roads in and out are a piece of sh*t. I personally would like to see the roads graded after a race so when I ride my MC it's not on the whoops from Hell.

I think Desert Bull could give a better answer to this since he's in on the markings and trail work for BFG/SCORE.

TMW - 6-4-2007 at 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Of course they should regrade the roads. It has been irresponsible of them to never have done it in the past. Also irresponsible to do this in Mexico, after saner heads banned such destructive racing in US a long time ago. Bunch of US boys going to mexico to practice a hobby (this is no sport) no sane land owner or manager allows in the US.

Sorry but off-road racing in the U.S. is alive and well. Both SCORE and BITD run on dirt roads in AZ and NV as well as several other organizations. The longest being the Vegas to Reno, 500+ miles. Get a copy of Dusty Times and check out the MORE, SNORE and other schedules.

PJC - 6-4-2007 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

The selfish voice of Goat666, a radical *****, earth worshiper speaks. But here is the real 411.

1) Sal negotiates land use fees with all Ejidos crossed. The fees are theirs to use for whatever they want: road grading, fiestas, a new well pump - whatever.

2) We still have plenty of point to point and single lap, long desert races in the US even if the fringe, earth worshippers of the *****, state religion think it is a sin.

3) Hobby? Not a sport? Perhaps we can strap you into a class 9 or 11 car soon to see how long you last.

[Edited on 6-6-2007 by BajaNomad]

Gadget - 6-4-2007 at 07:37 PM

Thanks PJC. You saved me from warming up my typing fingers to reply ***************.

PJC - 6-4-2007 at 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget
Thanks PJC. You saved me from warming up my typing fingers to reply ***************.

10-4 lookn' forward to the Mocos 500 Report.. Point me.

Cheers

[Edited on 6-5-2007 by PJC]

Gadget - 6-4-2007 at 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PJC

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget
Thanks PJC. You saved me from warming up my typing fingers to reply ***************.

10-4 lookn' forward to the Mocos 500 Report.. Point me.

Cheers

[Edited on 6-5-2007 by PJC]

Copy, please stand by. I will be getting it down over the next couple of days. We had an epic pit, but are all saddened by the tragic loss of one of our race teams co-driver. Things are not easy for many of us right now.

PJC - 6-4-2007 at 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gadget
Copy, please stand by. I will be getting it down over the next couple of days. We had an epic pit, but are all saddened by the tragic loss of one of our race teams co-driver. Things are not easy for many of us right now.

Indeed.

burro bob - 6-5-2007 at 12:20 PM

TW
First... the tourist bureau in Ensenada has nothing to do with the San Felipe 250. San Felipe is part of Mexicali and is therefore part of the Mexicali COTUCO. The problems with this years San Felipe 250 had nothing to do with Ensenada.
Second.... Sal collects $75 per race car for land use fees. No one knows where that money goes. The Ejido Plan Natioinal Agrario has never reciever a single peso from either SCORE or any government agency for the grading of roads used durring a race.
Tom, if your read your cheese everyday you would know this stuff.
burro bob

vgabndo - 6-5-2007 at 04:16 PM

Not withstanding Patrick's insulting rant, there is just no way in hell that the Baja 1000 is run entirely on ejido land, not for that matter is any other Mexico race that I've heard of. Even IF the ejidos were getting money from the promoters, that would still leave 90% of the damaged roads in worse shape than they were before the arrival of the rich Americans. (And a few Mexicans with enough money to burn on race vehicles)

capt. mike - 6-5-2007 at 04:32 PM

Pat - give the old devil goat a ride in your Lothringer and see if he still calls it a hobby!!! :lol:

tripledigitken - 6-5-2007 at 04:41 PM

I started this thread as a supporter of Baja Racing. But it's hard to justify the condition of the roads after a race getting no attention at all. Forget the tourists, most all of the locals travel these roads in 2 wheel drive vehicles. Try BOLA to San Fransisquito in a toyota tercel sometime.

A lot of money is spent and made on these races, it wouldn't take that big a share to regrade the worst of the course at completion.

$250,000 to $500,000 depending on 500 or 1000 miles would go along way to repairing the course.

It should be a goal for the promoters to move in this direction. It could go along way to assuring that these races continue.

How about some input from the race fans on this?

Ken

Slowmad - 6-5-2007 at 04:46 PM

So long as those loud Okies stay off the coastal routes, no harm no foul.

Roberto - 6-5-2007 at 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
A lot of money is spent and made on these races, it wouldn't take that big a share to regrade the worst of the course at completion.

You are going to have to provide specifics after a statement like that. You could start by providing a list of those in the racing community that make a lot of money at the SCORE races. It sure ain't the teams, though they do spend a lot. It sure ain't the pit and team support folks, though they have a lot of fun.

So, could you provide some specifics?

Minnow - 6-5-2007 at 05:37 PM

I couldn't help but notice all the new pavement heading into Erendira at this year 500. It was not there before the 250. I also took the race course south many miles. It is not the road the locals use. Year after year the races are allowed to continue. Money is made and handed out according to local custom, or this would not happen. What happened in SF was a case of greed by one ejido, heads will roll. As far as grading dirt paths, come on, give me a break. If the locals need it for daily life, it would not be on the race course anyway.

The comment about all off road racing being in MX is without merit. Check your facts before you insert foot.

A while back I remember PJC in an argument with some newbie bajabound person about how Mexicans don't like the off road races. You people need to step out of your veranda once in a while and look at what is happening around you. Leave your Norte American sensibilities at home and examine the facts. :lol:

tripledigitken - 6-5-2007 at 06:40 PM

Quote:

In most motor sports, the Score Races I'm sure are no exception, the sponsers are the ones driving the economics. Corona, BFG, Tecate, Toyo, etc. as well as the promotors.

The Terrible Herbsts, Raglands, McMillins, etc. could well afford to pay more in entrance fees to repair roads with their budgets. Why you want to argue that no money is made, in offroad racing is amusing.

What I find interesting is that the responses I'm getting seem to be dancing around the issue.

Does Score have a responsibility? Why not just say they don't if that's what you feel. We can agree to disagree.

To say the locals don't use the course isn't even worth debating really. I've driven on much of the course in Baja Norte and seen Pangero's and other locals using it, so have you, unless you haven't driven to Gonzaga or San Fransisquito.

So far it seems that most of those offering opinions think that the promotors do not have a responsibilty to repair the course. I'm a little surprized. I thought with all the Nomads here that drive offroad, some would think differently.

By the way I know the locals love the races, as do I. Except, of course, the ones that booby trap the course each year.

Ken

Roberto - 6-5-2007 at 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
You are going to have to provide specifics after a statement like that. You could start by providing a list of those in the racing community that make a lot of money at the SCORE races. It sure ain't the teams, though they do spend a lot. It sure ain't the pit and team support folks, though they have a lot of fun.

So, could you provide some specifics?

I asked a question - who is making "lots" of money? Sponsors are involved for sure - they spend it. Rich race teams spend it. Not rich teams spend it. So do the vounteers and the fans. Come on Ken, you're so smart, answer the question - back up your statement. Who is making lots of money? If you just feel that people who can afford it should be charged more to "re" grade the roads, say so. I don't think you have a clue, just an agenda.

[Edited on 6-6-2007 by Roberto]

Bajalero - 6-5-2007 at 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
I started this thread as a supporter of Baja Racing. But it's hard to justify the condition of the roads after a race getting no attention at all. Forget the tourists, most all of the locals travel these roads in 2 wheel drive vehicles. Try BOLA to San Fransisquito in a toyota tercel sometime.

Ken , I have to respectfully disagree with you . Most Mexicans I've talked to about the course roads seem to be happy with there condition. Some are no doubt in a little worse shape for the wear but it is Mexico and more or less a dirt road is a dirt road. It's not one of their priorities nor obsessions.

On top of that, for me personally, the worse shape the better. Bad roads help weed out the weak competition and the tourists :yes:

tripledigitken - 6-5-2007 at 07:04 PM

Roberto,

I have gotten your answer to my question
in spite of my cluelessness.

By the way do you feel good insulting someone who is asking a fair question?

Ken

Paula - 6-5-2007 at 07:04 PM

As a person who doesn't care for racing but who enjoys backroad travel, I would like to see racers or sponsors do more to repair roads. I like to drive from Loreto to Comundu, and the shortest and most beautiful route has some really treacherous spots. I've heard that these places were torn up by races (bala mil I think) that pass through. As the road is now I think it is unsafe, bad news for me, and for local ranchers up there. This is a general comment, and probably has nothing to do with the places being discussed here.

Corky1 - 6-5-2007 at 07:05 PM

"I asked a question - who is making "lots" of money? Sponsors are involved for sure - they spend it. Rich race teams spend it. Not rich teams spend it. So do the vounteers and the fans. Come on Ken, you're so smart, answer the question - back up your statement. Who is making lots of money?"

I don't know how much "lots" of money you are thinking about, but I can assure you SCORE doesn't put this race together to break even.
:?:

I do agree someone should repair some portions of the race course.
:fire:

Corky

David K - 6-5-2007 at 07:18 PM

I must say that Baja had bad roads BEFORE off road racing.

It was Baja's roads that gave birth to off road racing.

That the tradition (history) is still alive in Baja after 40 years of off road racing, it can't be all that bad!

A Tercel was not designed to make the run to San Francisquito, a Tacoma WAS... Go see your Toyota dealer for a trade up!

Collecting more money from 'rich' teams to pay for damage done by all??? You been reading too much Karl Marx, perhaps?

As Bajalero said, it is bad roads that filter out the undesireables!

About the money statement... I have been in an off road pit team, a pit captain, and race car co-driver ('79 1000)... It is done for FUN & recreation my most... a business for a few... and serious competition on race day by all! Very little money is earned if any... most is spent on a great vacation in Baja to the benefit of the people of Baja... who love off road racing a LOT more than the people of the U.S.!

The money collected by SCORE for road repair work you can bet is handed over to Mexican officials. If the dinero isn't going to road graders or ejido personal, don't blame Sal Fish!

nomad 040.jpg - 22kB

carlo - 6-5-2007 at 07:25 PM

The only people that make money on the races are the people of Mexico. Each race brings millions of dollars into Ensenada and the cities along the path of the course. Mexico isn't like the US. Most businesses are family owned so the money goes to the people, not a corporation.

I’ve been going to Score races in Mexico for years. Every local I’ve ever met enjoy the race and want it in Baja. Not because of the money, but because they are excited to see a world class sport in their country. They are proud to have it in their back yard and proud to be part of the race.

Regarding the roads and conditions – the people that own or control the property determine if the race is on their road. If they didn’t want the race to use their road, it wouldn’t be on it.

The 250 was moved from San Felipe to Ensenada due to a land dispute between the local Ejido and the city of San Felipe. It had nothing to do with Score. The Ejido wouldn’t let the race on their land to get back at the city for siding with El Dorado Ranch in a land dispute. El Dorado Ranch is expanding on the east side of the highway on land that was said to be reserved for the University of Baja.

PJC - 6-5-2007 at 08:05 PM

Well said Carlo!

David K - 6-5-2007 at 08:14 PM

Oh, if it wasn't for off road racing in Baja, Doug 'Baja Nomad' would not have discovered the wonders down there... TRICK Racing Fuel sponsoring the race years ago was how Doug came south! Thanks to Baja racing, we have Baja Nomad Forums!

Thanks for the Answer to my Question

tripledigitken - 6-6-2007 at 09:25 AM

Well I got a answer to my question. I got more, alot more!

It seems that $75 is collected by Score from each entrant to turn over to someone in Mexico. The Municipality most likely that the race starts in. With the idea that it gets to the Ejido's where the course in run. All 500-1000 miles? That's alot of folks.

The point is that Score does in good faith pay dollars to someone for something.

Sorry but $37,500 won't do much road repair even if it all went to that. But that is another thread I'll leave for others.

What I did learn from this thread:

Locals don't use any of the roads the course runs on. :?:

I don't have a clue.

Baja had bad roads before the off road races started 40 years ago.

I might be a closet Communist.

Very little money is made during a Score race, and what money is made is by Mexican's only.

Advice given to me:

Trade in the Tercel I don't own for a Tacoma.
Get off my Veranda and experience the real world.
Leave my Norte American sensiblities at the border.

So I want to thank all you Nomad Race Fans for the heartfelt advice to another inquiring Nomad.

I don't think I will be leaving my Norte American Sensibilities at the border, but I will try to leave my narrow mindedness, my fading type A personality, and most other obnoxious traits some americans bring to Baja.

The next rainy weekend when I can't get my 4 by 4 down to Baja to explore some out of the way place, I'll dust off an old copy of "On any Sunday" and a newly acquired DVD of "From Dust to Glory" and sit and watch a Score Race just like I have done for over 30 years. And no David I haven't read Karl Marx since I was in College over 30 years ago.

By the way, did I mention that I too am a fan of Baja Score Races, and would like them to continue. I guess I wasn't clear enough to some.

Have a nice day, amigos.

Ken

[Edited on 6-6-2007 by tripledigitken]

Paula - 6-6-2007 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Well I got a answer to my question. I got more, alot more!

It seems that $75 is collected by Score from each entrant to turn over to someone in Mexico. The Municipality most likely that the race starts in. With the idea that it gets to the Ejido's where the course in run. All 500-1000 miles? That's alot of folks.

The point is that Score does in good faith pay dollars to someone for something.

Sorry but $37,500 won't do much road repair even if it all went to that. But that is another thread I'll leave for others.

What I did learn from this thread:

Locals don't use any of the roads the course runs on. :?:

Ken, the Karl Marx thing may have been inspired by my presence on this thread-- but I'll let you have the rest. :biggrin:

Minnow - 6-6-2007 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
Holy chiites Pat, if all I have to do to get strapped into one of those things is rail a little about how destructive and irresponsible all that racing is than you guys are evil incarnate and should not only repair all the roads but handle all the issues of politics for sale down there, too.

I have had to decline rides in Pats car because of not feeling 100% He is a generous person and if you want to ride in his car, he will probably give you one. He might even loan you a crash helmet.

The hobby not a sport comment was obviously ment to p some folks off, but hell, to me Golf is a hobby. Lets just say, if it is not in the olympics, or invented by some European, it is a hobby. :lol:

burro bob - 6-6-2007 at 12:01 PM

"The money collected by SCORE for road repair work you can bet is handed over to Mexican officials. If the dinero isn't going to road graders or ejido personal, don't blame Sal Fish!"
David where do you come up with this garbage? If the people of the Ejido knew which agency is receiving the money they wouldn't have as big a problem with SCORE as they do. But SCORE refuses to tell anyone who this money is paid to. If you can prove this money is going to a Mexican government agency then please post it here or drop a line to the Ejido.

"The 250 was moved from San Felipe to Ensenada due to a land dispute between the local Ejido and the city of San Felipe. It had nothing to do with Score. The Ejido wouldn’t let the race on their land to get back at the city for siding with El Dorado Ranch in a land dispute. El Dorado Ranch is expanding on the east side of the highway on land that was said to be reserved for the University of Baja. "
Carlo, SCORE has been in danger of loosing this race for many years. I was told a month after the 2006 250 that there would not be a race the next year if Sal did not come to the table with the ejido. Sal lost it all by himself. After 4 years of trying to get him to deal with them directly the Ejido kicked him out. Draging Pat Butler into the problem was just a way to try and smear him. So yes The Ejido has major problems with Sal Fish and they very much revolve around road mantainance or lack thereof.
Right now Sal is ignoring the letter that was sent out by the city. He claims that several properties did not refund deposits after this years cancellation of the 250. He will not enter into any talks about returning to race here until all deposits are refunded. A list of these properties is being compiled and when we sure it is correct it will be made public.
Tripledigitken, to answer your original question, Yes there should be an effort to regrade some roads after a race. The racers already pay a $75 per car land use fee and they would like to think that it is being used to repair some of the damage. Unfortunately the fate of the $75 fee is the biggest secret since the Manhattan Project. That kind of money won't pay for grading the whole course but it would take care of those dirt roads that are used during the rest of the year. No the Ejido does not expect to get all the land use money, only their share.
Some of you might want to think about why CODE is still allowed to race here but SCORE is not.
burro bob

Hook - 6-6-2007 at 03:30 PM

Well, by this time I would imagine that Sal has either seen this post personally or has been told of it by someone in the organization.

It would seem a simple matter for him to post here and clear up the question marks of:

1-how much money SCORE takes in
2-how much they disburse to Mexican officials
3-who those Mexican officials are

Why should the rest of us speculate on this....he can easily answer these questions right here.

Returning 250, 500, 1000 miles of dirt to some kind of "same as it ever was" condition? Now, that hilarious.........

Cypress - 6-6-2007 at 03:56 PM

Have seen some vehicle tracks, ruts etc. through the desert that are clearly visible after several years.

Maybe the racers could hire some of the neighborhood folks to repair the damage, might pay better than picking strawberries and they wouldn't have to leave home.

bajalou - 6-6-2007 at 04:22 PM

burro bob - I agree with all you have posted on this with one exception. A member of the Ejido board told me in Jan. that they understood Sal paid the money to Ensenada Tourist Bureau to distribute and it didn't get here. He then said as you mentioned that they wanted him to sit down with them to get things settled, but this didn't happen.

Here is a translation of a letter from Ejido PNA regarding the race.

"
TRANSLATION OF THE LETTER ISSUED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE EJIDO ON 26 FEBRUARY 2007

THIS DOCUMENT IS INTENDED ONLY TO PROVIDE INFORMATION FOR SPEAKERS OF ENGLISH AND HAS NO OFFICIAL VALIDITY.

NATIONAL AGRICULTURAL PLAN OF MEXICO

PROVISION FOR COMMON LAND *(t.n.)

SAN FELIPE BC

With regard to the position adopted by the Ejido Assembly **(t.n.) on February 25, 2007, whereby said organization refused passage through common land to participants of the San Felipe 250 Race, the Ejido Commissioner states the following:

First.- As in all previous years, the authorities, organizers and other parties interested in conducting the San Felipe race again left negotiations with Ejido representatives to the last place in their agenda.

Second.- Following the 2006 race, the company “Score” along with authorities and other organizers agreed to meet two weeks after that event in order to negotiate terms for the race’s 2007 edition. No such meeting took place.

Third.- In a meeting held at the municipal offices in January this year, Sal Fish and his legal representative, Lic. Oscar Ramos; the Municipal Deputy for San Felipe, Joaquín Sahagun Delgado; the Deputy Coordinator Ing. Benjamín Castillo; Lic. Rubén de la Peña, Managing Director of “Cotuco” in San Felipe; Jesús Olmos, Manager of “Épocas de Oro Ranch”; Lic. Roberto Ledon Perezchica, Canaco Delegate for San Felipe; the Tourist Sector’s Rafael Navarro; Dr. Javier Ayala, President of the Matomi Ejido Commission; Isaac Rodríguez, Commissioner of the Delicias Ejido; the Ejido Plan Nacional Agrario’s President, Treasurer and Secretary, respectively Ing. Samuel González Lares, Aurelio Torres Flores and Arturo González Martínez, were joined by representatives of the ejido in question. The Commissioner for the Ejido Plan Nacional Agrario resolved for those who participate in the organization of the event to draw up a written agreement, whereby one of the organizing parties is designated to assume full responsibility, since not one of the groups represented at the meeting could admit to holding said commitment at the time.

Fourth.-The original agreement had been that the Ejido would receive the total sum of the "land fee" (++) which brokers pay in order to obtain authorization to hold events such as this race, an agreement which Mr. Sal Fish made public. The San Felipe 250 race traditionally has over 350 competitors, where the money to be collected in land fees exceeds $21,000 US. Approximately $10,000 US were paid to the Ejido in last year’s event, an amount that is insufficient to cover road damage caused by the race. In terms of the land fee that is payable to Ejido tenants under Mexican law for an activity of this kind, the complete sum has never been received by them, despite the fact that on this specific occasion a direct commitment was made by Mr. Sal Fish, who, with funds from the Municipal Deputy and Canaco, was only able to provide the Ejdo Assembly with $8,000 US. To date, the reasons that led Mr. Sal Fish to breach the agreement are unbeknown to this office as they are to the respective Ejido tenants.

Fifth.- In view of the above, the ensuing reaction by Ejido tenants should be seen as a result of the illogical and inappropriate offer made by the Municipal Deputy of San Felipe in conjunction with Canaco representatives. No blame can therefore be placed on Ejido members for faults committed by the event’s organizers, the latter’s equivocal proposal, the unrest their attitude provoked among the Ejido community and the disappointment these organizers evidently brought to local business.

San Felipe, Baja California, February 26, 2007

SINCERELY

ING.SAMUEL GONZÁLEZ LARES

President of the Ejido Commission

Ejido Plan Nacional Agrario

(National Agricultural Plan of Mexico)

* Translator’s note: “Ejido” is the name given to ‘common land’ in Spanish, hence translation of title - “Ejido Plan Nacional Agrario”; ** Common Land Tenants’ Assembly.

++ Editor's note: Each entrant in the Baja 250 race is required to pay a "land fee" of $75 US to be used to repair damage caused as a result of the running of this race across public and private lands.

?????

Follows is my edit.

I don't think Score allows you to race unless you've paid all your fees "up front".

[Edited on 6-7-2007 by bajalou]

mtgoat666 - 6-6-2007 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch

The hobby not a sport comment was obviously ment to p some folks off, but hell, to me Golf is a hobby. Lets just say, if it is not in the olympics, or invented by some European, it is a hobby. :lol:

Baseball, golf, poker, motor cars and video games are not sports. They are hand-eye coordination games. I'm not saying games aren't fun, they certainly are a hoot, I'm simply thinking that motor racers are delusional to think they are participating in a sport. If you don't need cardio-vascular fitness and you can do it well with a beer belly, it is not a sport.

bajalou - 6-6-2007 at 05:05 PM

From Wikipedia definition of sport-
"Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Used by itself, sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors. Sports are used as entertainment for the player and the viewer. It has also been proven by experiments that daily exercise increases mental strength and power to study"

Roberto - 6-6-2007 at 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Roberto,

I have gotten your answer to my question
in spite of my cluelessness.

By the way do you feel good insulting someone who is asking a fair question?

Ken

What was the insult - I was just trying to get an answer. Unless my OPINION that you have an agenda is an insult.

Roberto - 6-6-2007 at 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corky1
"I asked a question - who is making "lots" of money? Sponsors are involved for sure - they spend it. Rich race teams spend it. Not rich teams spend it. So do the vounteers and the fans. Come on Ken, you're so smart, answer the question - back up your statement. Who is making lots of money?"

I don't know how much "lots" of money you are thinking about, but I can assure you SCORE doesn't put this race together to break even.
:?:

I do agree someone should repair some portions of the race course.
:fire:

Corky

No, they're not in it to break even - but Sal Fish is no a millionaire - which he should be by now if the races make lots of money for SCORE.

Roberto - 6-6-2007 at 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by carlo
The only people that make money on the races are the people of Mexico. Each race brings millions of dollars into Ensenada and the cities along the path of the course. Mexico isn't like the US. Most businesses are family owned so the money goes to the people, not a corporation.

Exactly what I hoped Ken would realize. Of course the sponsors get publicity, and through that possible increased sales and eventually, possibly, some income. But the folks who make the money are, as Carlo says, down south for the most part.

oldhippie - 6-6-2007 at 06:42 PM

Baja SCORE racing is verrrrry cool. It's a good thing!!

leadmoto - 6-6-2007 at 07:08 PM

Some of these roads exist because of SCORE.

David K - 6-6-2007 at 07:32 PM

Ken and Bob, I am only entering into this frey because of personal involvement in or opinions regarding SCORE racing on the peninsula. Please do not take my opinions as anything personal against you guys... I just want to have all sides heard and some thinking to take place. Let's remain amigos, please! (Ken, so you really did read Marx?!! :lol:

)

tripledigitken - 6-6-2007 at 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Ken and Bob, I am only entering into this frey because of personal involvement in or opinions regarding SCORE racing on the peninsula. Please do not take my opinions as anything personal against you guys... I just want to have all sides heard and some thinking to take place. Let's remain amigos, please! (Ken, so you really did read Marx?!! :lol:

)

Amigo's si. I can disagree and still buy you a drink. Frankly on this issue I think you'd be surprised that we are probably not very far off. You can't limit your friends to those with identical viewpoints can you? It would get both boring and lonely.

Yes, I did read Karl Marx (Das Capital). It was on the book list in an economics class.

Ken

Yours truly on the "Race Course", and I know you know where.

Yes, I did read Karl Marx (Das Capital) it was on the book list in an economics class.

David K - 6-6-2007 at 07:55 PM

Nice rig!

Desertbull - 6-6-2007 at 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Bunch of US boys going to mexico to practice a hobby (this is no sport) no sane land owner or manager allows in the US.

Riding in Pat's plush new Class 10 car or the Lothringer wouldn't do this guy justice. Strap him in my 5/1600 for a wild ride through 4 miles of 3 foot deep silt heading out of Tres Hermanos and see what he thinks after a blinding "don't friggin' lift" ride in the deep azz silt...that is littered with 50 buried Trophy Trucks, Class 1's, 10's, Pro Trucks galore and so on and so on...

That might help convince him it's far from a hobby...it's just not a sport...but its a team sport that is impossible to do without a well-orchastrated / trained group of friends who are passionate about not just motorsports..but Baja in particular.

Or howabout hitting the bumps with the stick pinned in fourth and banging your noggin on the roll cage...maybe he's right its not a sport...its an addiction!!!! :lol:

[Edited on 6-7-2007 by Desertbull]

Cypress - 6-7-2007 at 05:30 AM

'Bout like rush hour traffic in most any major city, just remove the pavement.

TMW - 6-7-2007 at 07:14 AM

burro bob, does CODE arrange to have a road graded? I'm not aware of any road being graded after any off-road race in Mexico. If an Ejido is not getting paid by SCORE they should contact the appropriate Mexican authority.

PJC - 6-7-2007 at 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
I'm simply thinking that motor racers are delusional to think they are participating in a sport. If you don't need cardio-vascular fitness and you can do it well with a beer belly, it is not a sport.

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The following are facts that are irrefutable.

1) The two men that recently won the Baja 500 in the top truck class are both physical fitness fanatics which provided a clear and decisive advantage.

2) The young men and women that race and succeed on motorcycles and ATV's are incredibly fit by default.

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[Edited on 6-7-2007 by PJC]

[Edited on 6-8-2007 by BajaNomad]

Cypress - 6-7-2007 at 11:30 AM

About the off-road races. It's a sport to many people, so is golf, tennis, ping-pong, baseball, football, chess, poker, chicken fights, dog fights, and on and on. Fishing is a sport. Hunting is a sport. I'm not forced to participate in your sport, whatever it might be. What impact does your sport have on none participates? This so-called sport business is getting way out of hand. :yes:

PJC - 6-7-2007 at 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
This so-called sport business is getting way out of hand. :yes:

Hey Cypress, you go boy. Go and setup a town meeting with the local folks in Baja to ban the dastardly off-road races and see where you get (likely 6 feet under).

Note: "local" does not include ex-patriate gringos that want "gated community" ammenities in the frontier of Mexico too include HOA commitees that will make sure the fence is high enough the broken glass on top is sharp enough and that your trash cans are all the same color, vintage and in perfect alignment on trash day.

[Edited on 6-7-2007 by PJC]

Cypress - 6-7-2007 at 01:31 PM

PJC. :lol:

On second thought! :lol:

BAJABAILADOR - 6-7-2007 at 08:41 PM

been on almost every road,goat trail & two track in baja norte in the last 32 years. much to do with races but most not.Running a grader down the road isn't much of a fix from what I've seen.
In Baja if there's a real problem it will get some attention, at least enough to get by. I'm just glad they finaly started maintaining Hwy 1.
Score money ? Code can't wait to take over ! Nothing would change except qaulity of organization for a few years.

just my two centavos

burro bob - 6-8-2007 at 09:27 AM

David
You and I both are interested in seeing SCORE return to race in San Felipe. I just don't see how you can make some of the comments you do when you are in no better position to know the truth (where that $75 goes) than I am.
If people think that the Ejido Plan National Agrario is going to allow SCORE races to be held on their land without the kind of changes that are described in Lou's letter then they are living in a fantasy world. I personaly think it will be several years before we see another SCORE race around here.
TW
CODE negotiates and pays a fee ( I don't know how much) directly with the Ejido. Their entry fees are a whole lot less and they don"t charge a $75 land use fee so I doubt if the fee comes any where close to paying for a course grading. The Ejido doesn't really care about the condition of the course except on those roads that are used on a regular basis by the ranchers.
Yes SCORE is still responsible for getting the land use fee into the hands of the correct people. It is not the Ejidos job to chase down government officials so they can be paid. Heres an example for you....
I am going to hold a weekend rave in your back yard. Don't worry I allready have permission from the city and your neighbors. They like the idea because they can rent out their front yards for parking and their backyards for camping. The kids can set up cookie and lemonade stands on the street. I will charge $20 per person to get in. I will pay $1 out of each entry fee to a government agency so they can pay you for the use of your back yard. Don't expect me to tell you which agency or how much they recieved. My business records are none of your business. ...Now just change me to Sal Fish and you to the Ejido and you might begin to understand the problem.
Lou
I can understand why Ejido PNA would be dealing with Ensenada for the 500 and the 1000 but not for the San Felipe 250's. Only a small part of those races were held on Ensenada controlled land (Ejidos Dilicias and Matomi). San Felipe doesn't get it's fair share of tax revenues back from Mexicali which it is a part of. How could they ever expect to get a fair cut from a government agency that doesn't represent them at all. In fact they could be considered direct competitors.
To all the other race fans.
Thinking that racers are considered heros by all Mexicans and that they all love off road racing is a delusion. It is pretty much like it is in the States, some really love it and some really hate it and most don't care one way or the other. It's not the fans you need to keep happy to continue racing, it's the land owners.
burro bob

bajalou - 6-8-2007 at 09:46 AM

Bob, Sal only wanted to deal with one entity, to handle all his land use needs. Or so the story went.

David K - 6-8-2007 at 10:30 PM

I thought the land was GIVEN to the ejidos BY the government (to develop, farm, etc.). Should an ejido have that kind of power to rob an entire city or region of a huge financial gain? The good of the many vs. the good of the few... or the one... (uh oh, have I been reading Karl Marx?) :rolleyes:

Cypress - 6-9-2007 at 08:01 PM

Anybody ever heard of "Imminent Domain"? :?:

Oh yea! You've got to surrender your land in order for someone to drive over it with their "toy" vehicle and have a good time. :lol:

David K - 6-10-2007 at 09:14 AM

Come on guys, you are usually big on government control over private rights... For the good of the many (San Felipe businesses) over the good of the few (ejido masters and undeveloped desert)! :light:

Just want to have both viewpoints exposed... Whatever ends up working is going to have to be fine... I would bet SCORE avoids San Felipe for a L-O-N-G time!