BajaNomad

Loreto Bay - the June 2007 Version

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oldhippie - 6-7-2007 at 07:13 AM

Hot off the presses. These guys are good. They've addressed all the problems we've brought up in a very professional, carefully written document, "The Inaugural Sustainability Report".

It's almost like they read Bajanomad and decided that they needed to address the issues raised here point-by-point. I suppose it's also in response to the environmental groups that are raising the BS flag.

It's quite a spiel. Being the cynic that I am, I feel I must point out their interpretation of using energy/water efficient techniques as "saving" energy and water. Well, I don't know. What it really is is not using as much if normal techniques were used. They are not "saving" anything. Quite the contrary.

You will see that they are having a hard time with the fact that there's not enough water. It's a tough fact to tap dance around. The first sentence about water establishes their contractural right to take all they need from the ground supply. Then they go on to explain that the "harvesting" plan may take generations to produce significant results and that the reverse osmosis desalination is being "researched".

They even took old hippie's suggestion and are going to grow food, not in place of the golf courses however. It's going to be "organic" food too! How nice.

I love the term "eco golf course" that they are now using. Drought resistant would be better.

They have a 20 year lease of ejido land for the wind power project. So I guess they got around the 10 year maximum.

They also point out that sewage treatment is not their responsibility, it's the responsibility of the city. But of course they're helping.

To sum it up, they have no binding requirement to solve the water supply or sewage treatment problems. But they will because they are eco-friendly and I guess currently think they have the money it will take. Of course they wouldn't sop up what water is there and not worry about the sewage once the pipe leaves their property.

It sounds to good to be true. Therefore....

http://www.loretobay.com/files/pdf/inaugural-sustainability-...

LBS

djh - 6-7-2007 at 08:04 AM

as in Loreto Bull....

Most Nomads know me to be thoughtful and a peacemaker.... (I am... however...) I feel a need to speak to this directly.... I read their glossy report ... and honestly.... this reads like the biggest bowl of BS I've seen in a long time.....

(from their own "report"):

"According to Loreto Bay’s contractual agreement with the federal government of Mexico, we have the right to supply all of our water needs by accessing the regional water supply in the San Juan Well Basin.

However, in the spirit of our sustainability mandate, it is our plan to be a water independent development and, in essence, to return that water to the local community to ensure that its needs are met as it grows over the next decades. This means that, by the time our project is completed, we will have saved the region hundreds of millions of gallons of water, and will save in perpetuity approximately 400 million gallons of water every year. Our plan includes water harvesting, production and conservation."

bajalou - 6-7-2007 at 08:10 AM

Quote:
Our plan includes water harvesting, production and conservation.


I guess you just plant some water, watch it grow and then harvest.

Paula - 6-7-2007 at 08:11 AM

I'll read on in a day or so after I've recovered from seeing the master plan!

Actually, I knew all this, but the visual sure brings it all home:wow::barf::wow:

aquaholic - 6-7-2007 at 08:17 AM

...anyone remember the "Rocky & Bullwinkle Show"..???...this is one of the "Fractured Fairy Tales"...

...and then, we can wait to see what the larger project Fadesa is planning will do to the water supply...

YIKES!!!

oldhippie - 6-7-2007 at 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho

Money buys talent. :)

--Larry


You're right. These are very talented people, especially in the fields of marketing (which is what we see) and finance (which is what I want to see).

Plus they have Internet marketing figured out. But that's a double edged sword because the Internet also makes it easy to differentiate between fact and fiction. And more importantly millions of readers can read what they write the day after it's posted. Hopefully a good portion of the readers will think that what they are doing just doesn't make sense because of the location.

It's a huge risk for both the environment and for the guys that have their money wrapped up in this ill conceived development.

I've been thinking for months (so I might as well say it) that if these guys believe in what they're saying, they're stupid, and if they don't believe in what they're saying, they're liars.

And I think the Spanish guys with big Loreto area resort plans are blowing smoke. The Loreto Bay guys probably gave them a condo to issue a press release and hype the place.

oldhippie - 6-7-2007 at 09:05 AM

The term "water harvesting" refers to catching the rain water. You know, the 4.5" annual average. Of course in Loreto you need to catch it quick before it evaporates.

I mentioned they're good at Internet marketing, check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages_of_Loreto_Bay

Wikipedia is an "open source" encyclopedia written by "the people". I think I'll do some editing. I'll add facts to contradict the fiction that is there now.

gnukid - 6-7-2007 at 09:23 AM

It seems that the Loreto Bay plan is almost certainly destined to use the entire regions water and polute the space as fast as it possibly can.

Once again, in no short order, there will be a ghost town left where a development started shortly before, this time in Loreto. How spooky it will be to arrive only 10-15 years from now and see a dust swept huge city, with nothing left but abadonded mini-mansions and the holy grail, the eco-golf course, the cut aorta of the peninsulas life blood water system.

When someone lies to you in your face while commiting a massive crime to destroy a city and hurt you and your family it's all out war. Bring in the big guns...

Normally in these types of battles, revolutionaries breakdown the infrastructure and attack central command posts, but that's not relevant in a place with no infrastructure or intelligent command?

Ol Hippie, what does it say we should do in this case in the Hippie Revolutionary Handbook? Sing some songs in the town square? Put flowers in their cement mixers? March on the portable offices with cookies? Or as in most cases these things fail on their own.

How about a promotional poster...

"Visit Eco Adventure Loreto. Challenge yourself to survive the extremes, dry and windy freezing Winters and unbearably hot Summers."

oldhippie - 6-7-2007 at 09:45 AM

Power to the people!

Remember those shipyard workers in Poland about 25 years ago? Solidarity? Those blue collar guys kicked off the disintegration of the Soviet Empire.

Local protests.

Think globally, act locally. Trite but true.

The big, old money, local land owners need to understand what the risks are. I'd chat with the local priest. He's almost God to the citizens. Especially to the old land owners with some wisdom who are feeling their mortality. What he says goes.

Don Alley - 6-7-2007 at 11:56 AM

We've known for a while that when a lot of cash changed hands between Fonatur and LB, part of the deal was that Fonatur sold Loreto's water to LB. That water may be worth more than the land. Anyway, to put a fig leaf on it Fonatur has finally transferred the water rights to the city, but only after LB has secured a contractual right to take all they want.

Sewer: Fonatur agreed to take responsibility for sewage, and a plant is under construction near the nursery.

The new water restrictions in Loreto? It would probably be a violation of the water contract to enforce such regulations in Loreto Bay.

I may read LB's report later, I'm on the road with a s l o w connection now.

wilderone - 6-7-2007 at 01:37 PM

Page 1 says they "welcome [our] suggestions and ... assistance."
I've got a suggestion for them - you want to "tread lightly" - go home to Canada. Better yet, go back home to Civano and finish the job there.

Osprey - 6-7-2007 at 01:50 PM

One of the first things one might want to do in a desert, before planning anything that needs water, would be to check the age of the water coming out of the residential sink. Once you know how old the water is you can make some assumptions about how and when to use it. Wouldn't planners want to know if the water fell 100 years ago or just last fall? Water is really hard to make -- I heard some of the farms around Constitucion have been draining the aqaufir now at depths where it is centuries old -- can't get that water back and when it's gone, it's gone.

120 Homes Complete?

bajabeachbabe - 6-7-2007 at 04:15 PM

LB is stating that there are 120 homes completed in the Founders Village. I recall reading that there are only a couple full-time residents there. Here is a quote from Nellie's Blog from this past Sunday:

"There were many friends and neighbors in town this weekend. We gathered at the INN on Thursday evening under the bright full moon. It was great to see everyone and feel the vision of community and remember why we bought here again. Everyone is so very nice and friendly.

The new General Manager of the Hotel is Alfredo, who is shown on the left. The absence of staff from Loreto Bay Company was very evident and we were told that they would not be providing any representation at these events. I guess the owners are now on our own – even though most in attendance still do not have their completed homes yet. Oh Well."

Do you think the LB staff don't dare show their faces to the buyers?

backninedan - 6-7-2007 at 04:41 PM

Has anyone met a Loreto Ghetto buyer? Just curious, I have yet to meet one.

capt. mike - 6-7-2007 at 04:50 PM

why don't you all call Jim Grogan and just ask him directly? He doesn't hide and is willing to discuss any aspects of the LB. You can report your findings here, even Tell Grogan you're going to do that.

wilderone - 6-7-2007 at 04:56 PM

Some things are just nonsensical. They state that they're building on the shores of the National Marine Park, and they've spent a lot of money to understand and protect it, trying to convince the reader that by donating large sums of money to OTHERS who will protect it, they will be associated with those organizations and their preservation goals. However, in the same section they describe what they're actually DOING: using fertilizers and insecticides and pesticides, and cleaning products, and shellacs, and composting system to process 30,000 tons of organic waste which I assume would result in a significant amount of compost which they'll use on their 100 acre farm and golf course -- all of which will create huge amounts of nitrogen and toxins that will ultimately flow into the Gulf and the Marine Preserve. And I'll bet the mosquitoes will love the sewage, swales, estuary and rainwater channels.
And this is just a total waste of money - I wonder who actually got this money: $40,000 for the development of a REPORT on the recreational values and benefit transfers (yawn) of fishery resources in the Loreto Bay Marine Park. Couldn't they have just asked Flyfishin Pam and given her $20,000? What a scam.

flyfishinPam - 6-7-2007 at 05:14 PM

I wouldn't have accepted $20K or $20mill to help these people rape our town.

Bass ackwards

Dave - 6-7-2007 at 05:27 PM

IMO, you're approaching this the wrong way. It's not LB that's the problem it's people buying into LB.

If the town is so against the project they should pool some money and hire a slick internet ad/development company to put up a website and tell their side of the story.

Fight fire with fire.

flyfishinPam - 6-7-2007 at 06:12 PM

Bass ackwards?

No we're not. we're discussing it and we will come together and we'll stop it. their discouraging us will only make us stronger

thanks hippie for pointing to this document and the wikipedia information will be updated now and then!

this document did parallel concerns that were publicly posted on this board so this is a valueable place. it was a desperate move on their part to come up with this report at such an identical time as the last long thread on LB and the water issue threads. they're feeling it! facts will win over their hype and they'll be laid out to the very ones who will need to be concerned about them the Loretanos the masses.

take a look at who got grant money and that will explain why they won't speak out about Loreto Bay or water issues. I could make associations between those entities and the startling article I posted in february but won't now as I'm too busy and too disgusted.

oldhippie - 6-7-2007 at 06:38 PM

You know what the weakest link in this huge gamble is?

The airport. Without flights in, sales would stop dead in their tracks.

Just planting authentic and sustainable seeds.

flyfishinPam - 6-7-2007 at 06:40 PM

plan is that the airport will be moved to the San Juan valley somewhere more near San Bruno. when? I dunno? maybe after they finish reparing the water lines and paving the damn streets in the center of town

backninedan - 6-7-2007 at 07:33 PM

Pam, I guess that makes it about five years then.

Paula - 6-7-2007 at 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by backninedan
Has anyone met a Loreto Ghetto buyer? Just curious, I have yet to meet one.


Yep, last Oct I was browsing in Conchita's, and I met a couple, probably in their 60's, who had sold out in Phoenix AZ to move to Loreto Bay. They were very pleasnt and friendly, and had made friends with Conchita as they had sold everything for the move, and came in often to select funiture and such. It was rather sad. Years ago they left New York state to move to Phoenix, where they raised one daughter, who doesn't speak to them, and did well in business. But the changing economy, pollution, crime rate, etc. drove them away, and having no ties in the US felt that their savings would provide a better living down here. They said their new home was beautiful, and life would be wonderful... when more people came, and they started making friends, and the coffee shop and the bookstore, etc. opened up. Then asked what life is like in Loreto, and I mentioned the music that was happening every night in the plaza for loreto days, the anniversary of the town's beginnings. Their eyes lit up-- music, really??? how wonderful!!-- they said, and mentioned that they don't hear of such things down there. There was a hint of doubt, of sadness-- they seemed to have concerns.
Maybe I should have exchanged phone numbers or e-mails-- I thought about it, but thought we had little in common, and I didn't want to be their sole connection to a place where real life goes on. Not very generous of me. But I think of them sometimes. They were just ordinary folks, not from Nellie's glamorous world, and in good faith they risked everything to retire in paradise after working hard. I hope things are going well for them, and I wonder if they are still there, or if they've found that all that glitters... may be fool's gold.

oldhippie - 6-8-2007 at 06:24 AM

If you google "Loreto Bay" you'll get some websites built by homeowners. For example:

http://www.mwenda.com/basket/construct.htm

I'd love to get a username and password for the homeowners website http://myloretobay.com/lbh/. There's probably a back door available on hacker sites since it was built using the presto authoring system using the rudimentary cold fusion scripting language. A quick look at the source code was somewhat revealing.

Why would they move the airport? Is the current airport not quite up to snuff? Perhaps it doesn't meet current commercial minimum standards. If so, the airline's insurance carriers should know. Any pilots out there that could tell me if the Loreto airport is below minimum standards for commercial flights?

LB

tehag - 6-8-2007 at 06:32 AM

One reason to move the airport might be that it ties up some very nice waterfront property.

oldhippie - 6-8-2007 at 06:41 AM

Did anybody notice the 20 year lease for the land the wind farm is on mentioned in the latest marketing blurb? Everything I've read states without exception that 10 years is the maximum real estate lease term under Mexican law and any lease contract for a longer period is an invalid contract that doesn't hold water. (assuming there's water to hold 8^).

Maybe the Loreto Bay lawyer reading this (Hi!) can clue me in.

Bruce R Leech - 6-8-2007 at 06:47 AM

has anyone noticed the new water line they are running from loreto north about 30 km to the agricultural aria. now they are going to take the water away from the farmers in that aria.:?:

805gregg - 6-8-2007 at 10:03 AM

I somehow got on their list they keep trying to get me to come down and drop $5000 to hold a spot for a lot. Yeah right, let me get my checkbook.

Dave - 6-8-2007 at 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
Did anybody notice the 20 year lease for the land the wind farm is on mentioned in the latest marketing blurb? Everything I've read states without exception that 10 years is the maximum real estate lease term under Mexican law and any lease contract for a longer period is an invalid contract that doesn't hold water. (assuming there's water to hold 8^).

Maybe the Loreto Bay lawyer reading this (Hi!) can clue me in.


LB is a corporation. Different rules apply.

oldhippie - 6-8-2007 at 06:43 PM

Thanks Dave, are you the LB lawyer?

Roberto - 6-8-2007 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie
Thanks Dave, are you the LB lawyer?


Ok, now THAT is just a stupid comment, or haven't you been paying attention re: Dave?

jerry - 6-8-2007 at 08:08 PM

dont worry dave old hippy is paranoid from smoking too much (lets say stuff) perhaps trying to remake a name for the life he missed
putting his own spin on the truth to match his facts

oldhippie - 6-8-2007 at 09:21 PM

Roberto, I asked if a LB lawyer could clue me in on a contract issue (max lease term) and Dave did. So I asked him if he was a LB lawyer? Seems logical. After doing some research it appears he's correct.

I don't know Dave and eventhough I guess he's written things that would make my question appear stupid to you, I don't read all that's posted and I very seldom take notice of the name when I do read a post.

I have been paying attention to what is written. I've taken a well defined stance and written much so naturally I'm interested in what others think.

You have a deal, I'm going to pay close attention to what you write from here on out, and to what Dave writes.

Jerry, please find and quote me where I have "spun the truth". I'll try to restate for you what I wrote. Also, I have stated a lot of opinions and by definition they have a spin. Also, I know I can be silly. I'm sure people take that for what it is, silly.

I want to see where I have spun the truth.

I'm glad you realize that I have stated many facts attempting to support my position.

Now back to the issue at hand. It appears the absurdity of building a golf course in an arid area where it rains less than 5" a year, the current water supply is barely enough for what's there now, and the groud is baked by almost contant sun has been made less absurd by LB taking out the bermuda grass and using paspalum instead. It does tolerate salty water, straight from the sea of cortez I'm not sure. It's used elsewhere in Mexico.

http://www.paspalumgrass.com/paspalum.asp

http://www.lascarasdemexico.com/SeaDwarf_Grass.html

So I'm going to back off on the golf course business eventhough Loreto is hardly a place you would think people would go soley to play golf. It's probably there because if you're not into water activities there's absolutely nothing else to do once you've seen the sights.

Phil S - 6-8-2007 at 10:21 PM

old hippie. Besides golf, there is tennis There are many canyon trails for walking & getting back to nature. There are butterflys. The vast number of breeds of birds. Meeting new people. All this while feeling warm in the sun. I don't think Golf has anything to do with Loreto. People is what there is about Loreto. Don & Paula Alley understand that. Pam understands that. Have YOU spent much time in Loreto to be able to base that kind of opinion about Loreto? I've spent pretty much five to six months out of the last sixteen winters down there. I'm no expert. But I do have a reasonable "feel" for the area. How about you??????

oldhippie - 6-8-2007 at 11:32 PM

Phil,

Thanks, I forgot about bird and butterfy watching, meeting people, going for walks and playing tennis.

Baja to me is where I can easily go cheaply, park the ford condominium on the beach, forget about shaving, hang with surfer buddies in the sand and dirt and drink beer and Tequila

When I spend the big bucks on a vacation I go to Maui and other such places. Havana was interesting.

I've spent a few hours in Loreto here and there. The last time I was appalled by the all the tourists. It looks like I'll never go there again.

I have to admit, there will be many things to do eventually. Hard Rock Cafe, Squid Roe Loreto, and ride inflated bananas being towed by boats.

backninedan - 6-9-2007 at 06:39 AM

Phil, the birds and bunnies are fine features, but the so called tennis center is a disaster, you know it as well as I do. Hate to have tennis buffs expecting something decent.

vandenberg - 6-9-2007 at 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldhippie






It looks like I'll never go there again.

.



Man, you will be missed.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

vandenberg - 6-9-2007 at 07:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by backninedan
Phil, the birds and bunnies are fine features, but the so called tennis center is a disaster, you know it as well as I do. Hate to have tennis buffs expecting something decent.


Dan,
The tennis center was, like everything else, neglected by Fonatur from the get-go. No maintenance whatshowever.
If maintained properly it will be more then adequate for the average player. Even better ones,which leaves me out.:P:P

backninedan - 6-9-2007 at 08:09 AM

Van,

I agree, when we first moved here four years ago, the tennis center was in pretty nice shape, and can be again with a little work, but you know how that goes, especially with fonatur. Do you know if Jimmy Conners was ever actually envolved in the tennis center?
If I can figure out how to attach video, I have some great pics of golf course workers herding cattle on the golf course, but then the golf course is a subject for a full topic of its own. More fonatur expertice at work.

Bob and Susan - 6-9-2007 at 08:23 AM

"ride inflated bananas being towed by boats"

those are FUN!!!

flyfishinPam - 6-9-2007 at 01:00 PM

On this paspalum grass link it states the following right off the bat:

"And then, if introduced into an environment that Bermudagrass could not, or should not be grown in, it becomes a little more challenging, so different avenues of construction techniques and turfgrass cultivation must be implemented."

So did/does bermuda grass do well in Loreto? No it does not. Even when fed with huge amounts of water it still grows very thinly and is not even really nice to look at. So if the quoted statement is true, this new salt tolerant grass will require even more effort to keep the appearance that discerning golfers will require at a five star mega resort.

My BS degree in Plant Physiology was earned at Sonoma State University in 1994 in case there's any doubters to my observation.

flyfishinPam - 6-9-2007 at 01:09 PM

Again from that paspalum link:

"Anytime we use the term "challenged environment", or "non Bermudagrass environment", etc., we are describing any of the following; water other than "fresh" which would include: effluent, brackish, or any water with any amount of salinity levels above 500 PPM, TDS.

Other challenged sites, regardless of the quality of water available could include low rainfall regions (arid sites), high rainfall and cloudy regions, areas prone to salt spray, tropical storm flooding from either fresh water or salt water, hurricanes, or sites that have salt affected soils, high or low pH soils, and most any other "harsh" turfgrass environment."

Oh this just keeps getting better! I think Loreto Bay is failing to plan. BIG DUH!!! They are a "sustainable development" and they will eventually have two golf courses.

San Bruno will have four.

and Ensenada Blanca will have one

make your own conclusions

flyfishinPam - 6-9-2007 at 01:19 PM

And this link will describe the preventative and effects of disease:

http://www.paspalumgrass.com/diseases.asp

when a plant grows in an environment that could be considered "harsh" for its particular species it is more suseptible to disease and infestation than when it grows in an environment that it can tolerate better.

This can only lead me to conclude that the use of fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, herbicides, etc. will need to be at a higher level than normal if environmental conditions weren't so harsh.

OK two golf courses in sustainable Nopolo, that will consume huge amounts of water useage and become a shoreline chemical sink and effluent. YUCK!

muy importante

flyfishinPam - 6-12-2007 at 09:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce R Leech
has anyone noticed the new water line they are running from loreto north about 30 km to the agricultural aria. now they are going to take the water away from the farmers in that aria.:?:


Hi there,

I just found the answer to this. I am a new member of the chamber of commerce in Loreto and I had a long talk with the president of the chamber. He just told me that those pipes are being connected to the San Juan Londo aquafer to feed Loreto Paraiso (the San Bruno project).

Great! Now we have 13,000 units and the 260,000 additional residents that that project will bring draining that aquafer AND this new megaproject to our north sucking up the rest!

They said (HArvard Study) that the aquifer has 5-10 years without this growth, now how many years will be get water? 2,3,4??? then what?!

This is so important which is why I revived this thread as I remembered Bruce's comments on the tubes up North.

Loreto is dying a slow death right in front of us.

truly unfockin believable.

woody with a view - 6-12-2007 at 09:48 AM

how do these people sleep at night? well, after the catstraphe happens everyone will leave and try to be made right thru the courts, leaving the little people to pick up the peices.

just think about the sale on beachfront property!!!! except there won't be any buyers!

will the airlines keep flying to loreto?

oldhippie - 6-13-2007 at 08:37 PM

What air carrier has the most flights into Loreto? Is it Alaska?

In the past 3 quarters its net income has been less than zero.

In the past 52 weeks its stock has lost 26% while the S&P 500 has gained 23%.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ALK&annual

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=ALK

To be fair, the whole airline industry is iffy at best and with the high fuel prices it's really a loser.

Is the Loreto route profitable? Loreto Bay better hope so. Doesn't look like Alaska or any other airline is going to be carrying around any dead wood for long.

Remember how any years that airport sat idle? Mucho!

Baja_Girl - 6-13-2007 at 09:12 PM

...but on the other hand, some of us really enjoy what Loreto is, the Mission, the diving, and the beautiful natives, (but, uh, I could do without the sewage in the streets) - and I certainly wouldn't have access if all commercial flights were cancelled...so let's not boo-hoo 'reasonable' access to Loreto. And, I may be alot of things, but not "dead wood."
Let us do everything possible to disseminate the ugly truth about the Evil Empire aka LBC. I have observed that the publications meant to educate visitors about Loreto have mostly absorbed the b-s propaganda by LBC - without question. Porque? Is it not possible to put up a billboard on the way to LBC which says "Hey, Knucklehead, Ask For Proof That Anything They Say Is Even Remotely True. Be Prepared to ASK QUESTIONS."

Don Alley - 6-13-2007 at 10:09 PM

I flew up north a couple of weeks ago on Alaska Airlines. Read an article on Loreto in their magazine, one of those articles about eco tourists who have zero impact, yeah right. What got me, as a fisherman, was the information that the Loreto Marine Park had banned trawlers AND SPORTFISHING, and as a result numbers of fish greatly increased and that increased tourism. All crap, but that's what a growing number of people want to hear.

There are a couple of copies of that mag with corrections penciled in.:biggrin:

oldhippie - 6-14-2007 at 08:26 AM

bajagirl - I didn't mean the passengers were dead wood, I was referring to flight routes that aren't profitable. And just because a particular fight is full doesn't mean it's profitable. It's the number of passengers times the ticket price that determines profitability.

Is Loreto a dead end route or do the flights continue on to Cabo or some other place? I would think dead end routes are especially vulnerable.

If the fact that there's not enough water, or the environmental consequences, or local opposition doesn't stop the mega tourist development, maybe the refusal of the airlines to subsidize flights to the area will. Right now the airline business is hurting big time.

wilderone - 6-14-2007 at 08:41 AM

There should be handouts at the hotel where the prospective buyers stay during their sales presentation trips with the truth. A couple pages, back to back, excerpts from the water study, facts about the Other development plans, the interpretation of their sustainabilty report (stated commitment vs. past action and future plans = lies). Want a condo with a view of the ocean? They're aplenty in Mexico and you don't have to wait 10 years for the "promises" - buy and enjoy it now for less. Since the sustainability aspect is total bull__, why buy there? Title it "What Loreto Bay Company Doesn't Want You to Know." We can all donate $ for printing, and ask a couple Baja-oriented NGOs (the ones who haven't yet been tapped to keep quiet) to pitch in too.
PS: Where's the Loreto Bay Foundation annual report?

Baja_Girl - 6-14-2007 at 08:45 AM

Delta has a small ExpressJet that flies from LAX to Loreto and back...that's all.
Alaska apparently starts in Washington, stops at LAX and ends at Loreto - and turns around.
These are the flights I know about. Alaska, from what I hear, is almost always full as it is best known. Delta has not been full, but when word gets out how awesome it is (small fast jet, more comfortable leather seats - I loved it) - so its just a matter of time.

Interestingly, I heard some local business people lament that Loreto was very slow this last month in comparison to other years and a local restaurant owner suggested that the hotels help sponsor the flights to bring more people down. \

LBC folks stay "on premises" to eat and drink and wear stupid wrist bands into town when they are allowed to escape. How does that help Augies? Isla's? and other local businesses if tourists are encouraged to stay inside the projects?

I think that some thoughtful, planned development of the Loreto tourist industry is inevitable and probably a good thing...

I think that LYING and BULLSH--TING in order to EXPLOIT the beauty of Loreto MUST be stopped. The LBC projects are UGLY. Their "sustainability" mantra is FRAUD. That's why it makes me SOOO ANGRY...It has NOTHING to offer the pueblo bonito Loreto.

more later,
lisa marie

Baja_Girl - 6-14-2007 at 08:48 AM

Wilderone - that's a great idea - Old Hippie - if you construct the text - you are the best writer - and ask Pompano for some humor - he's brilliant, too, I will use my resources to organize and publish a newsletter up here and bring in down there - kind of like the Grinch...we'll start out modest and see how receptive the businesses are...
let me know...estoy aqui.
xoox
lisa marie

backninedan - 6-14-2007 at 09:20 AM

Most of the prospective suckers and or buyers stay at the "Inn at Loreto Bay". I think this is also now owned by the Loreto Bay people. Getting any kind of honest pamphlets there just isnt going to happen.

Loreto Bay herds them around like sheep. It looks like they try to avoid contact with any locals if at all possible.

elizabeth - 6-14-2007 at 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
There should be handouts at the hotel where the prospective buyers stay during their sales presentation trips with the truth. A couple pages, back to back, excerpts from the water study, facts about the Other development plans, the interpretation of their sustainabilty report (stated commitment vs. past action and future plans = lies). Want a condo with a view of the ocean? They're aplenty in Mexico and you don't have to wait 10 years for the "promises" - buy and enjoy it now for less. Since the sustainability aspect is total bull__, why buy there? Title it "What Loreto Bay Company Doesn't Want You to Know." We can all donate $ for printing, and ask a couple Baja-oriented NGOs (the ones who haven't yet been tapped to keep quiet) to pitch in too.
PS: Where's the Loreto Bay Foundation annual report?


I made the same suggestions awhile back! You know, great minds and all that! You have expanded upon it well. I think the airport would be the place to leaflet, and keep a few flyers on your person and hand them to wristbanded people. The hotel can refuse to allow you to pass out flyers on the premises.
I was wondering about the annual report, but haven't had time to look for it.

elizabeth - 6-14-2007 at 09:58 AM

So, I just tried to find the Foundation Annual Report, and could only find the report for 2005. The financial report page showed a total of $70,320 in grants made with another $25,000 approved, but not distributed. Total expenses, which does include the $25,000, was $249,192!

Anyone know where to find the 2006 report?

oldhippie - 6-14-2007 at 11:23 AM

T-shirts, bumper stickers, window stickers, cold cups, billboards, etc.

no_loretobay.jpg - 29kB

oldhippie - 6-14-2007 at 11:46 AM

Something else is brewing that needs to be balanced with the truth of the damaging effects of tourism and condo/hotel developments for the foreign elite.

http://www.loretobay.com/files/Media/loreto_vid/popup.htm

Wanted: Very Smart Website Designer

Baja_Girl - 6-14-2007 at 12:51 PM

I have just purchased the following domain names -
:biggrin:

Now, I need someone to take up the task of filling up the webpages...the hosting is inexpensive and I'll pay for it...the key will be to get one of these websites to show up on top anytime someone types in "Loreto Bay Company" -

How could they be soooo stoopid and not buy up the domain names?

Your account is being processed for $26.00. You will receive an account setup confirmation within the next 24 hours with instructions on how to access your account. If you have any questions regarding this invoice, please feel free to contact us at order@ipowerweb.com. We appreciate your business and look forward to a great relationship!

Thank You,

The iPowerWeb Team

ORDER SUMMARY
-------------

Sales Date.............. 2007/06/14 12:36:18
Domain Names............

loretobaycompany.biz

loretobaycompany.net

loretobaycompany.org

loretobaycompany.info

Pam, Oldhippie, need good content - and if nothing else, I have a sister who does this part time...but could use some help here!

Minnow - 6-14-2007 at 01:25 PM

I am certainly no fan of LB, but this is going way beyond what this web site is for. I am not going to report this to the moderators, but IMHO, it is time for some of you folks to sensor yourself. At least take this to U2U.

Baja_Girl - 6-14-2007 at 01:48 PM

Minnow,
I promise to censor myself immediately upon learning that the LBC has stopped disseminated its propaganda...if you would kindly focus your energy on censoring LBC first and stop the inevitable harm to Loreto, then I will leave well enough alone and consider myself "censored."
Thank you for your help in this regard.
lisa marie

wilderone - 6-14-2007 at 02:00 PM

Suggested content: links to the water report, summarizing important statements as lead-in; link to Baja Life article; link to Gringo Gazette article; reproduce important community news relating to water restrictions. There's a ton of info on how large amounts of nitrogen affect saltwater algae blooms, deplete oxygen in freshwater estuaries, killing snails and other marine life. Link to other Mexican residential developments that offer more value and do less harm to the environment because there is an adequate water supply, smaller footprint, is less intrusive and more connected to the community. First-person interviews from Loreto citizens who have been affected. The LB atty "I lived with the workers" story, prefaced with 3 years of quoted "promises" about affordable housing and for the workers (which will not be sustainable). The LB Foundation 2006 annual report showing all the wasted money on US-based entities contrary to the stated purposes. All of the foregoing is simply factual information collected for perusal.

Cypress - 6-14-2007 at 02:25 PM

Loreto is a great place.:bounce: The development/project south of town?:?:Never been there. No desire to go there.

I smell litigation

Dave - 6-14-2007 at 03:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
I am certainly no fan of LB, but this is going way beyond what this web site is for. I am not going to report this to the moderators, but IMHO, it is time for some of you folks to sensor yourself. At least take this to U2U.


I wouldn't be surprised if LB attorneys haven't already contacted Doug.



Baja_Girl you could probably sell those domain names for big bucks.

Or trade 'em for a condo. ;D

wilderone - 6-14-2007 at 03:48 PM

The BS that LB puts out is fraudulent and misleading. Freedom of the press works both ways.

Minnow - 6-14-2007 at 04:03 PM

I have been reminded more than once here that it is not free, and it is not the press. The powers at be will have to sort it out, but thankfully for once I will not be on the receiving end.:spingrin:

Baja_Girl - 6-14-2007 at 09:59 PM

I have certainly been educated about this forum belonging to people - I didn't know that - but that was also the point of using a different domain - it does mean that there can be a place - completely outside of this forum - that can be used to express opinions - just like the LBC expresses their opinions about how wonderful they are.

Now, eventually, if this gets started, they won't like the fact that I purchased domain names that they could have purchased all these years, but let them b-tch andoffer me some money. I'm very familiar with law...I have attorney/friends who would LOVE to take on their challenge to my first amendment rights. It would be entertaining to them.

In the meantime, if anyone is really interested in doing something, for the sake of those who "own" this forum - please u2u me and let's do this elsewhere - I do respect the rights of others - I will provide contact info - and if you don't want to help...well, keep in mind that posting here really doesn't change a thing, does it?

Baja_Girl - 6-15-2007 at 08:44 AM

...lets see what happens...I got the idea when I tried to buy tickets for the Ahmanson Theatre. I ended up on a website for a private ticket dealer...then I scrolled through and found that the first twenty or so websites that had Ahmanson tickets, theatre, products, etc. in the name...had no affiliation with the Ahmanson...so, if thats perfectly okay, then...who knows?
It might be fun to get a little publicity at last, its been so lonely as a single working mom, just trying to earn a little living, dive with a few fishies, trying to do good in the world.
xox
lisa marie

wilderone - 6-15-2007 at 09:05 AM

"...associated with their established company."
But the site content would also be associated with their company. It would simply be additional, truthful information. No slander or libelous statements -- just the truth, a helpful interpretation of their gobbledygook, and other considerations outside what their publications suggest.
For instance, regarding their "Eco-Safe Pesticides and Fertilizers - We ensure that all pesticides and fertilizers are non-toxic to soil and marine life." However, they don't address higher nitrogen and phosphorous elements, and salt build-up on the golf courses, which will all undoubtedly enter the estuary and eventually into the Gulf (how could it not when the estuary will be running through the entire project). Factual information such as the following, introduce vital considerations that LB is silent on, and have proven to be critical environmental concerns which are now undergoing clean-up and remediation all over the United States after decades of ignoring the consequences. Just read about the Baltic Sea, and Chesapeake Bay yourself. In their omissions, LB, paints a false picture of "sustainability" and all-is-well. It is not. The warm waters of the gulf will be especially significant in the cycle.

"Eutrophication comes from a Greek word meaning nutrients. Highly eutrophic saltwater such as Eel Pond has too many nutrients to sustain a rich variety of plants and animals. A certain number of nutrients, primarily nitrogen, is needed to help plants grow in a pond, but an excess causes detrimental algal blooms. The algae then strips the water of oxygen needed for fish and shellfish. Some algae actually form wide, rug-like mats that suffocate microscopic crustaceans and worms on the muddy bottom.
The pond also gets much warmer than the harbor waters, increasing the growth of algae and decreasing the supply of oxygen.

"End courses have joined with the Environmental Protection Agency and other organizations to limit nitrogen fertilizer runoff into the Peconic Bay Estuary and its 340 miles of coastline. ... Tristan Gillespie, pollution prevention coordinator for EPA Region 2, said the estuary has undergone significant development pressure that many believe has led to spikes in brown tides and algae blooms that have had a negative impact on the shellfishing industry and the overall health of the estuary. The program targeted every sector that contributes nitrogen to the watershed, including farms, homes, commercial landscapers, marinas, sewage-treatment facilities and golf courses."

"The SeaDwarf Seashore Paspalum, a salt- and drought-tolerant grass used on the course, is an environmentally friendly variety developers say takes up to 75 percent less nitrogen for fertilization and up to 50 percent less water for irrigation than Bermudagrass. The developers also created a sanctuary for a nearly two-mile stretch of mangroves, the native Florida trees that are crucial to the area’s saltwater ecosystem. Hammock Bay’s draining systems are all designed to flow away from the mangroves. In addition, 100 percent of Hammock Bay’s plant life is native to Florida. “We are fine in normal rainfall seasons when occasional afternoon storms will flush out the soil profile,” Phelps said. “But if you go three months without rain, which we did in 2002, that salt can build up to toxic levels in a hurry.”

[At LB, however, no such rainfall levels; the plant life is only 1/3 native, thus requiring much more water; at what point in time will the LB mangroves be doing their filtration job? 15 years? 20 years?.]

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 11:38 AM

You probably don't want to use another company's name in a website address. It would be sort of like opening a coffee shop and calling it Starbucks, sort of. At the least you'd probably get a "lawyer letter" of some sort.

When you register domain names it is best select the anonymous registration option. Perhaps at a small extra charge. Otherwise the personal info you enter when registering is available to the public. If anonymous, a court order of some type is required for someone to get the info.

To get a new website to pop up first on a search is a complicated task. Google uses many methods for returning a search list but it's original and still fundamental method is based on citations. In other words a website that a lot of other websites link to gets a high ranking. You can also pay for special treatment.

I wonder how many websites link to bajanomad. Probably a lot if nothing more for the simple reason it's been around for about 10 years.

This is a good forum to disseminate information. I don't think it's a problem for the owner unless somehow what is writtem costs him money. Can't imagine that. He's not libel for what others write.

Blogs are the current trend for expressing opinions on the Internet. I'm foggy on this but I think search engines search and index them in a special way.

I'll start one up and play the editor role. The opinions expressed should be backed up with verifyable facts using hyperlinks to expert articles, research reports, etc.

The crucial issue is the fullfillment of the water demand using desalination plants. We're talking major machines that consume a lot of power, require daily supervision, and regular maintenance, and produce copious quantities of a nasty pollutant - the salt and other minerals that are removed.

Eventhough a fancy name "reverse osmosis" is used, they are essentailly filtration plants where the filters are so fine they have to pressurize the water on the incoming side to push it through the filter.

I'm guessing the cost of water will be 2 or 3 times what it is now and that filtration plant better not stop working.

Authentic Mexican (hardly) sustainable (with a whole lot of money)

Baja_Girl - 6-15-2007 at 12:08 PM

thanks, Larry, that was awesome!

There is no way they would be able to ding me on the "bad faith" element: I'm not interested in selling to LBC, I'm not a competitor, I'm not interested in making money from the website, not a penny - in fact, I'm thinking of creating a charity and donating anything and everything to the Loreto Mission, I'm not preventing them from using their choosen website names "www.loretobay.xxx - which they choose - themselves...none of the "bad faith" factors apply to me...

remember, they have to prove "all elements" to shut me down - geez, I love being a lawyer.

lisa marie

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 12:13 PM

check this out

"At the Gaining Ground conference in Victoria last week, developer David Butterfield gave a stirring talk on his Loreto Bay project - a vacation spot in Baja California. He was rightfully proud of its commitment to sustainability, and also aware of its paradox: most people will fly there, many to their second homes. By any standard, this is a project available to only a minescule fraction of the world’s population, whose carbon footprint will be comparatively gigantic."

Beautiful!

http://pricetags.wordpress.com:80/2007/06/14/is-geen-just-th...

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 12:18 PM

BTW, that link is to a blog, you can add opinions there.

again

http://pricetags.wordpress.com:80/2007/06/14/is-geen-just-th...

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Money buys talent. :)

--Larry


Money buys everything.

Cypress - 6-15-2007 at 12:26 PM

This Loreto Bay project is a good deal for the "more money than sense crowd".:) Is there a shuttle service to the shopping centers? Can we help you with your bags?:( Jeez!

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 12:27 PM

The passenger miles per gallon of an airliner is irrelevant.

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 12:40 PM

If I lived in Loreto, I'd be painting my house and keeping the lawn mowed. I'd be mowing around the "For Sale" sign.

This sounds like just one of the beginnings of the end.

We all knew it could come to this.

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 01:25 PM

Lencho - Cryptology, eh? I'll let you explain yourself.

Roberto - 6-15-2007 at 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja_Girl
thanks, Larry, that was awesome!

There is no way they would be able to ding me on the "bad faith" element: I'm not interested in selling to LBC, I'm not a competitor, I'm not interested in making money from the website, not a penny - in fact, I'm thinking of creating a charity and donating anything and everything to the Loreto Mission, I'm not preventing them from using their choosen website names "www.loretobay.xxx - which they choose - themselves...none of the "bad faith" factors apply to me...

remember, they have to prove "all elements" to shut me down - geez, I love being a lawyer.

lisa marie


No, they would just have to "determine" that you are acting in bad faith, and reassign the domain to Loreto Bay. This is not a government agency, at the most you could then sue them in civil court.

http://www.keytlaw.com/urls/acpa.htm
Quote:

the defendant's intent to divert consumers from the mark owner's online location to a site accessible under the domain name that could harm the goodwill represented by the mark, either for commercial gain or with the intent to tarnish or disparage the mark, by creating a likelihood of confusion as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of the site;


Seems to me they would AT LEAST have an argument. One that I, for one, would support.

[Edited on 6-15-2007 by Roberto]

Paula - 6-15-2007 at 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
If I lived in Loreto, I'd be painting my house and keeping the lawn mowed. I'd be mowing around the "For Sale" sign.

This sounds like just one of the beginnings of the end.

We all knew it could come to this.


If you live in Loreto, youprobably shouldn't have a lawn to mow.:rolleyes:

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 04:14 PM

There are 126 active domain names with the phrase loretobay in them. Interesting, the entrepreneurs are on it.

http://domain-search.domaintools.com/?q=loreto+bay&bc=25...

No here's an enterprising soul, selling soap.

http://www.loretobaysoap.com/

DENNIS - 6-15-2007 at 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Paula
If you live in Loreto, youprobably shouldn't have a lawn to mow

Gee whiz....
There you go again, taking me literaly.
OK. Let me put it this way.
If you have property in Loreto that doesn't fit into the development plan...........Get out.
You can't beat them. They will buy your misery and serve it to you on a plate of humiliation.

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
You can't beat them. They will buy your misery and serve it to you on a plate of humiliation.


resistance is futile, you too shall be assimilated

Where's the Captain Petard in you?

oldhippie - 6-15-2007 at 07:30 PM

who wood (pardon the pun) of thunk?

http://whois.domaintools.com/gayloretobay.com

tuna stick - 6-16-2007 at 11:57 PM

Loreto Bay and our water problem. Possible, Algore Inc. could sell them some "Hydro Credits"!

djh - 6-17-2007 at 10:42 AM

Let ME put it this way, Dennis: I DON'T THINK SO !
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

OK. Let me put it this way.
If you have property in Loreto that doesn't fit into the development plan...........Get out.

[Edited on 6-17-2007 by djh]

WHATS THE BEEF!

bancoduo - 6-18-2007 at 07:30 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages_of_Loreto_Bay

opportunity to balance the BS....

djh - 6-19-2007 at 08:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bancoduo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Villages_of_Loreto_Bay


At that Widipedia page, there are links to edit, and to dispute and to discuss. Someone has added a bit of balance with the following: (I encourage you to do the same :-) !

(from the "discussion link")

"This is a sales pitch, not encyclopedic information
The Loreto region has a population of approx. 15,000. This population is insufficient to support a development the size of Loreto Bay. Estimates are that for each unit in the Loreto Bay development, from 10 to 20 Mexican citizens from other states will move to Loreto. When one factors in these additional 60,000 to 120,000 people, all of the "sustainability" numbers fail to add up: these new residents will not be driving electric cars and using solar heated water. They will create huge demands for infrastructure and resources, especially water, sewer and power, that will dwarf the alleged or planned sustainability features of the Loreto Bay development.

Water: There are NO current plans or permit applications for water development by Loreto Bay. Currently Loreto Bay is receiving its water from the San Juan aquifer north of Loreto-the same aquifer that supplies Loreto's water needs. Estimates are that that source could by gone in just a few years. The Mexican government has rejected that study and commissioned its own study, which has been finished. However, that study has not been made public. Yet in recent weeks the city has imposed restrictions on water use: no watering between 6am and7 pm, no watering streets for dust abatement, and car washing from buckets only. Major streets have been torn up to replace pipes. But Loreto Bay is not subject to these restrictions, and they have stated that they have the rights to use whatever water they want, for as long as they want it, from the San Juan aquifer.

Automobiles: The development has eliminated most of the expenses of streets, and is selling units without parking, in the guise of "sustainability." The reality is dense housing development south of the city, bringing Loreto urban sprawl and highway rush hour traffic over a very narrow highway with poor lines of sight. This has become one of the peninsula's most dangerous stretches of highway.

Social changes: More traffic. Longer lines at the clinics. Higher prices for almost everything. Crime, especially burglary and theft, has exploded.

Here is a link to information on the possible impacts of developments planned for the Loreto area, information generated by several participating US and Mexican universities:

http://www.futurosalternativosloreto.org/ "

Phil C - 6-19-2007 at 02:06 PM

Oh yes burglary, there is an increase, also one of our favorite things, GRAFITTI. Pobre Loreto.....

paranoid.....

kellychapman - 6-19-2007 at 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jerry
dont worry dave old hippy is paranoid from smoking too much (lets say stuff) perhaps trying to remake a name for the life he missed
putting his own spin on the truth to match his facts

it does not take a lifetime of smoking the green bud to be paranoid over LB.......in fact they make me want to indulge due to the high stress level over what they are doing south of my place.....I cannot stand the rape & pilaging (did I spell that right?) the are doing to Nopolo...makes me sick...
I am now in Boulder City Nevada (for a short time)and went down to the Lake and almost fainted.....the water table is so low that the mud is a good 30 ft before you get to the water......the fringin' lake is dissapearing.....and it made me think that the water is also going to be gone in Loreto with what is going on......then what will happen???? no place to run anymore I am afraid where they do not catch up with you and drain all the natural resources away......:no:

flyfishinPam - 6-19-2007 at 02:49 PM

djh,

thank you for posting the revised wiki edits. I did some revisions too but they weren't as good as these.

regarding baja girl's url's we can use them and other URL's which will point to websites that will educate the public on what is going on here both in spanish and in english. this is very important for the future of Loreto, if we are to have a future, and it is not political as caring individuals will simply be educating the public on the issues that the public can weigh out and make their own decisions with.

frightening information for all the citizens of Loreto

The Developers Are Also On The Move...

amir - 6-19-2007 at 04:19 PM

I talked to my wife yesterday on the phone, she is in Eugene, Oregon, that is about 2,000 miles north of Loreto Bay. She said she found a brochure and a DVD hanging from the front door doorknob. The whole neighborhood was thus blanketed with these promotional materials. The glossy, full-color brochure was called "Discover the Magic of Loreto Bay" and instructs to look at the 12 minute DVD to find out about all the wonderful and magicall opportunities of owning a piece of Loreto Bay.

What we thought was interesting is that they are targeting Eugene! And they are not using the Post Office, they are hand-delivering them. If they are spending so much money in little Eugene, we can't imagine how much they are spending to promote their magic all over...

--Amir

flyfishinPam - 6-19-2007 at 04:53 PM

if they are spending so much money doing that then the money will run dry at some point. they're probably having students do it, easy to do fairly cheap too but mailing would be so much cheaper.

once newcomers come to Loreto it will be easy for us to target them so they can see the truth, much less costly then leafleting all over the usa and canada

Don Alley - 6-19-2007 at 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amir


What we thought was interesting is that they are targeting Eugene! And they are not using the Post Office, they are hand-delivering them. If they are spending so much money in little Eugene, we can't imagine how much they are spending to promote their magic all over...

--Amir


Eugene is within a day of Loreto, and is served by Alaska Air (through its regional carrier Horizon Air). Rumor has it that in return for Alaska's service to Loreto, LB has made arrangements or guarantees with Alaska, so cities served by Alaska get extra publicity.

Little Eugene? How come I keep gettin lost there?:lol:

jerry - 6-19-2007 at 08:49 PM

lots of greeny in eugene thats why there targeting it liberal as hell (sheer the flock)

oldhippie - 6-20-2007 at 06:29 AM

The eco-golf course may or may not go over well with the people of Eugene. You would think that it would because of the greenwash propaganda but perhaps the green party in Eugene is sophisticated enough to see through it. Remember, Loreto Bay fundamentally makes no sense. No development is more eco-friendly than nature herself.

oldhippie - 6-20-2007 at 06:40 AM

Thanks for the Eugene tip though. I'll find some Eugene based message boards to negate the propaganda machine. You just need to plant a seed of doubt.

wilderone - 6-20-2007 at 08:39 AM

Or a packet to the Eugene newspaper with the TRUTH. Maybe Seattle too. Alaska A. hub.

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 09:02 AM

I have one of my sisters, the web-designer, coming to CA on July 1st to look at this with me - the irony of a golf course in a little publeo with water-rationing laws...:fire:

anyway, I look forward to putting together a fair presentation of loreto bay company - I will be in Loreto on July 10th - 15th...taking photos of the streets of LBC vs. the street in front of Pam's little shop, for example...

more later,
lisa marie

oldhippie - 6-20-2007 at 09:16 AM

There probably are some very environmentally minded writers at the Eugene Register-Guard.

http://www.registerguard.com/

Team them up with Sanda Dibble of the San Diego Union to give them a leg up. If she hasn't been bought off yet.

And the University! Oh this going to be fun!!

http://www.dailyemerald.com/

oldhippie - 6-20-2007 at 09:25 AM

Lisa Marie, you're not......no, forget it.

I'll put together an essay for you to edit and post on your website. I'll do it in html complete with hyperlinked references.
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