BajaNomad - Solar for Dummies

Solar for Dummies

DanO - 7-9-2007 at 04:53 PM

Can anyone recommend an informative website or other resource that teaches the fundamentals of solar electrical system design and maintenance?

gnukid - 7-9-2007 at 04:58 PM

Here are some basic informative sites.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/solar-cell.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power

http://www.westmarinesolar.com/

Bob and Susan - 7-9-2007 at 05:00 PM

these guys ARE the BEST!!!!
http://www.partsonsale.com/
NO BS about prices...

i am importing a BUNCH of stuff today and tomorrow
they have a REAL business in victorville ca

i was just there a few weeks ago
repair facility onsite

meme - 7-9-2007 at 05:57 PM

We too have a solar house here in San Felipe Bob & Susan. We have done quite a lot of business with your reccomendation & totally satisfied!
Especially with repair facility right on site means a LOT! We would sure reccomend them also.
meme

Bob and Susan - 7-9-2007 at 06:49 PM

i learned ALOT from these guys in the begining....
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/
but they are on the east coast and the prices were too high
these guys do know how to talk about solar in a way you can understand

a couple things i found out...
don't get the biggest panels they make because if you have problems later you're screwed....and DONT get the smallest either
you'll never have room to place all the panels for your needs

also get an outback charge controler
its way more efficient and will require less panels saving you money in the long run

also get the BIGGEST storage batteries you can
the inital investment is high but in the middle of a cloudy week you'll be HAPPY you still have electricy
storage of electricy is the KEY!!!!

Roberto - 7-10-2007 at 07:20 AM

Biggest batteries you can buy? To an extent, that's true, but if you overdo it, and end up in a situation where you never achieve 100% charge on the batteries, you will shorten their life.

Bob and Susan - 7-10-2007 at 08:27 AM

you're right...
i mean surrettes (sp) the rolls royce of batteries $$$

submarine_dbk - 7-10-2007 at 09:00 AM

Have to agree with Bob and Susan.

Solatron (www.partsonsale.com) is the best source out there. We spent we'll over a year looking into our solar and I price checked every internet enabled vendor I could find in the East, Southwest and even Canada. I believe for our system, we probably paid 1/3 to 1/2 less than a comparable system would have cost anywhere else. And as Bob says, they are an actual storefront, hove nearly everything in stock (or can get it immediately).

Finally, more storage is always better for the long run. Go with quality and capacity in the batteries and spend time learning how to properly maintain them. The difference in cost in the long run is well worth the added life.

Not certain I agree with Robertos statement on never achieving 100% charge, but I'm willing to be educated on this point.

I also second the Outback MPPT controller. The MPPT controllers are way more effective at converting panel voltages and current into what is actaully usable to charge the battery. Very little conversion loss.

Bajajorge - 7-10-2007 at 09:39 AM

There are dozens of how to websites. Solartron is a good one, but when you're ready to buy, search the internet. I've found price differences on all items ranging into the hundreds. Also try to find a free shipping site. Solar set ups are not brain surgery, just remember Red positive, Black negative, connect it up that way and you can't go wrong. When all else fails, :?:

read the instruction sheet. :spingrin:

ROI?

bajadock - 7-10-2007 at 09:39 AM

Anyone analyze the financial return on investment for solar electric? I did it for my last home in Colorado and it appeared to be a 10year ROI, but, that was 10 years ago.

Panel array - Battery bank match

El Camote - 7-10-2007 at 10:21 AM

Gotta agree with Roberto on this one. It's all about matching your panel array to your battery bank. Over panel and you'll fully charge your batteries earlier in the day but, with the array being your most expensive components, it's a waste of money. Over battery and you'll have a difficult time reaching full charge, go into deep discharge more often, shorten the lifespan of the batteries and never be able to equalize with your panels.

The magic number to remember is 12.16 or better off rounded to 12.2. That's 50% capacity for a 12v batt. and anything below that is considered a deep discharge. Deep cycle batteries can withstand more deep discharges than other types but they still can only can take a limited number, I believe 350, before they crap out.

Read everything you can get your hands on and ask specific questions on this board before you set up your system. There's a wealth of knowledge available here. Two nomads specifically helped me immensely in my early solar days: Mexray is a battery dealer and knows his chiite about batteries. And Bajabus is an installer and wrote me several pages of helping info. regarding maintenance and matching your battery capacity to your electrical needs. I seem to remember on "Bob and Susan's" webpage there being a ton of helpful info. on the design of their system.

Good luck, DanO, and once you get it up and running there's no better feeling than generating electricity silently, pollution-free and while sitting on your butt drinking a cerveza. :yes:

Bob and Susan - 7-10-2007 at 12:01 PM

i know NOW why now you don't want 40 marine batteries

its not the charging of them.... it's the cables....
too many....they corode very fast in the salt air
you have to clean the ends every month
and that takes a couple of HOURS!!!

the marine batteries DO WORK dont get me wrong
and...they are ALOT lighter
but...EVERY time i work with batteries my clothes get holes :lol:

DanO - 7-10-2007 at 12:18 PM

Thanks, all. I've got a gimpy system that needs some QC, so I'll have to sit down and crunch a few numbers and make sure my components are all matched correctly. In the meantime, one more question -- what do folks do about electrolyte loss when away from the casa for extended periods, like a couple of months? It was killing my batteries (yes, I have a charge controller), so I just unhooked the system while away last time and let them run down. They are taking a charge now, but not as much as before. Any thoughts?

Roberto - 7-10-2007 at 12:19 PM

MPPT controllers are not effective in hot weather (i.e. Baja) There are plenty of articles about this all over the internet. The reason is simple - solar arrays produce lower voltages in higher temperatures, and the differential between 12V and the solar array output is what the controller uses to get the additional boost.

In more temperate weather, they are great. So, if you're looking for Solar for Mexico, save the money and stay away from MPPT.

As far as batteries that are never fully charged, there's info about that too. Another point is that if you never fully charge them, a percentage of their capacity is wasted, correct? So I would go for an easily upgradeable system with some (say 20%) excessive capacity in the battery bank.

Al G - 7-10-2007 at 12:24 PM

Has anyone considered Hydrogen storage instead of battery storage?
It seem more permanent ...but do not know about maintenance. It also solves the oversize cell and use of the excess solar hours.
Don't know about cost or size necessities neither....maybe someone else??
I guess, I don't know much :lol:

viabaja - 7-10-2007 at 12:28 PM

Don't forget the positives of Wind Generators for those cloudy days and at night. Money well spent!! Wind & Baja are synonymous!

Roberto - 7-10-2007 at 12:36 PM

Here's another (partial) myth - Wind Generators. For Wind Generators to be effective vis-a-vis solar panels, a constant minimum wind speed of 20-30mph is pretty much necessary. Even in places like Bahia de Los Angeles, where winds can reach 70+ mph, wind generators do not hold their own when compared to solar panels. Sun IS a constant in Baja, wind is only in very few places.

Bob and Susan - 7-10-2007 at 12:42 PM

and wind generators are NOISEY even when windmilling

you'd be way better off with a guiet honda 2000 generator for those FEW cloudy days

Al G - 7-10-2007 at 12:48 PM

I thought they were only supplemental to solar anyway...cloudy days...night time...rain.

24 volt

BajaRob - 7-10-2007 at 12:58 PM

is the way to go. Voltage drop is greatly reduced and you can run twice the amps through your charge controller. Blue Sky makes a 50 amp MPPT charge controller that can be set up for 24 volt input and 12 volt output. The Kyocera KC-130 panels that are made in Japan have sealed J boxes with plugs that make it very easy to wire 2- 12 volt panels in series. We have 16- KC-120s & 130s which produce between 6-8 kw per day that is stored in 16 Trojan 105s. Our inverter is a Xantrex 4024. We are able to power an 18 cu/ft refer, 22 cu/ft refer, 32" TV, 2 computers etc. The most common error in Baja solar systems is undersizing of wiring. 5% voltage drop is max and oversizing of wiring can reduce the drop to 1-2%. Backwoods Solar is located in Sandpoint Idaho and has some unique items such as a 12 volt distribution panel that they build. They are a little pricey but their technical phone support is excellent. Solartron is more competitive and they did a great job replacing the fets board on our original Trace 2512 inverter

[Edited on 7-10-2007 by BajaRob]

BajaWarrior - 7-10-2007 at 03:35 PM

Rob,

you've seen my system, it's basic but works very well. I just relocated my panels up onto the new patio roof and wired them to the batteries with 10 guage construction cord/wire temporarily. The run is about 20-25 feet from the panels to the battery bench. Once the new house is near completion, we will be upgrading with more panels and more batteries.

What wire would be best?

Just got back from San Quintin (6 days at El Pabellon Camp), great time.

Where are you?

We'll be back in Santa Maria for Labor Day. Fingers crossed for no storms...

[Edited on 7-10-2007 by BajaWarrior]

viabaja - 7-10-2007 at 03:43 PM

Yes, supplemental only with solar/battery bank and yes they can be a bit noisy! However, it free power! Why burn fuel? When the wind picks up either steady or at least in gusts - I'm putting 10 to 30 amps back into the bank. During the winter it's handy with short days. It allows me to continue with the blender & movies!

Wind Power

MrBillM - 7-10-2007 at 03:55 PM

The Air-Power Series (Currently Air-X) cost roughly the equivalent of (1) 130 Watt Solar Panel. They can be shutoff unless needed. I NEVER turn mine on unless I need the supplement during Cloudy or Night conditions. IF the wind is up enough to make the unit worthwhile, the neighbors should all have their windows shut, anyway.

Whenever someone asks what a good output for the Wind Gen is, I say "about five amps". When they look at me with a puzzled expression, I say "Oh, the output can be up around 40 amps, but if the wind's blowing hard enough to generate more than five amps, it's a lousy day". We do have quite a few of those, though, especially in the Winter.

The noise isn't that bad for the AIR Series, anyway, except for that one of Chris'.

Just kidding.

BajaWarrior - 7-10-2007 at 03:56 PM

Yep, there's nothing wrong with extra amps anytime, but when my previous neighbor had a wind generator, it was a happy day when the props fell apart on that noisy thing. The worst part was the built in brake when it got going too fast.

Roberto - 7-10-2007 at 06:48 PM

The question to ask is whether money is better spend on more solar panels or one (or more) wind generators. And, in most places in Baja, you will find you will get more amps/$ with more panels. It's not hard to figure out - get the specs for the wind generator you have in mind, get the wind statistics, and figure it out.

Getting a Charge

MrBillM - 7-10-2007 at 07:05 PM

I'm pretty sure that the Wind Gen will put out more at night.

Although I'm using (6) KC-120s on my main array and have (4) in the garage for the future, I consider the amount spent on the Wind Gen a good investment. There are plenty of Cold, Cloudy Winter Days when I see as much charge from the Wind unit (usually around 25 amps) as I do from the Six Panels. Adding one more panel on those days would not make much difference.

Hey Chuck

BajaRob - 7-11-2007 at 04:31 AM

The easiest way to get the watts off the roof is to install a combiner box on the roof. Each set of panels wires into the box with #10 AWG UV resistant wire. I installed 2 combiner boxes with # 2 AWG wire in seal tight conduit to our 2 charge controllers. Voltage drop is less than 1%. The combiner boxes have fuses that protect each input.
We are in Panguitch, Utah ( east of Cedar City ) and will soon be joined by Jerry & Kathy Hewitt. We just spent a week with 6 Baja neighbors in Prescott.
When you upgrade your system you may want to check with Discover Power ( formally Solar Electric Inc. ) near you on Santa Fe. The owner, Damian, has always matched the lowest price that I could find.

LarryK - 7-11-2007 at 07:57 AM

I total agree with Bajabob. Go to http://www.discoverpower.com/ they are in San Diego, great people to work with. Also check with the people at http://www.specialtyconcepts.com/special_home.html Their Regulators are bullet proof. Give them a call and they will hook you up with a local dealer.

[Edited on 7-11-2007 by LarryK]

BajaWarrior - 7-11-2007 at 03:27 PM

Thanks for all the input guys. Actually Discoverpower is in my community, bought most of my gear there. But you know, they say the wire size is not that important and they use the same wire as I used as my temporary wire, 10 guage construction cord. My regulators are Trace as well as the Invertor, so I'm good there, just need to wire permanently when I add the new panels and switch out the batteries now 5 years old, going from 14 to 16-20 batteries.

But I do keep hearing over and over that wire size is critical when avoiding a voltage drop. I do have to wonder why the size of wire is so critical though when the wires coming directly from the panel are so small, in fact 10-12 guage. Not arguing here, just wondering what some of you guys are using. I happen to have some 6 guage temp power cord direct burial or exposed that I have been dying to use, have 200' of it.

Thanks Rob for the tips, you've got a sweet system, very proffesional looking, see ya in the fall.

Anyone know how good the 6 volt golf cart batteries at Costco are? They are the same weight as the Trojan and the Powerstrides I'm currently using. The price is $63 each, no core charge. But are they quality?

[Edited on 7-11-2007 by BajaWarrior]

Hook - 7-11-2007 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Anyone know how good the 6 volt golf cart batteries at Costco are? They are the same weight as the Trojan and the Powerstrides I'm currently using. The price is $63 each, no core charge. But are they quality?

[Edited on 7-11-2007 by BajaWarrior]

Thought I read somewhere that they are made by Johnson Controls, which makes Optima, Varta and a few other brands. Cant speak to their capabilities. I have Trojans on my boat.

Costco

MrBillM - 7-11-2007 at 04:46 PM

Since my original Battery Supplier of Interstate Batteries went out of business, I've been using the Costco Batts for replacements for the last two years. No complaints, but it hasn't been that long.

805gregg - 7-11-2007 at 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadock
Anyone analyze the financial return on investment for solar electric? I did it for my last home in Colorado and it appeared to be a 10year ROI, but, that was 10 years ago.

I heard in Ojai Ca it was 15 years.

Bajalero - 7-11-2007 at 07:49 PM

Baja Bob mentions the Kyocera KC-130 panels and speaking of which does anyone know if they are produced in Baja ? Seems I remember reading or hearing they have or were going to build a plant in TJ or maybe Mexicali

Al G - 7-11-2007 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajalero
Baja Bob mentions the Kyocera KC-130 panels and speaking of which does anyone know if they are produced in Baja ? Seems I remember reading or hearing they have or were going to build a plant in TJ or maybe Mexicali

That would be great news...Kyocera is the brand I use and think they are very good.

BajaRob - 7-12-2007 at 04:12 AM

Kyocera manufactures the KC-130s in Japan and Baja. The ones made in Japan have sealed J boxes and plug ends on the + and - leads. This makes it very easy to wire the panels in series to make 24 volts. The panels made in Mexico have the original J box with a hindged door.

Bob and Susan - 7-12-2007 at 05:28 AM

the Kyocera 130s are made in tijauna but you cannot buy them from the factory there...i tryed :saint:

they MUST be imported to the USA then reimported to mexico...go figure
the price is higher in mexico than in the USA even with the import fees

these are the units we chose...not too big and not too small
currently we have 12 and another 14 arrive today from the border

El Camote - 7-13-2007 at 01:48 PM

Quote:

I just came back from our local Costco and they don't carry nor did they have any clue about a 6v golf cart batt.
Couldn't find anything listed in costco.com either. Anyone have any more info. on this? At which warehouse have you bought these batteries? That's a great price - I just paid about $90. for the same thing in a powerstride several months ago and I need one more!

Roberto - 7-13-2007 at 01:50 PM

I've seen and bought the batteries from the Carmel Mountain Ranch and Poway Costcos.

Dave - 7-13-2007 at 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior
Anyone know how good the 6 volt golf cart batteries at Costco are? They are the same weight as the Trojan and the Powerstrides I'm currently using. The price is $63 each, no core charge. But are they quality?

Lead-acid is stable proven technology and I would doubt much difference in quality given same weight per amp. Key is you've really got to baby them. Most folks don't.

Roberto - 7-13-2007 at 02:30 PM

Dave is correct - ESPECIALLY when it comes to deep-cycle batteries, weight (as in the thickness of the lead plates) is the determining factor for quality.

As far as babying goes:

1. don't overcharge them (a three-phase charger will take care of that).
2. don't let them sit discharged for long periods.
3. keep water in them.

That should pretty much take care of the batteries.

Al G - 7-13-2007 at 02:38 PM

When you pick up a 6 volt battery and it is all you do... you will walk like you have a 100# grain sack on your back. This is when you know you have the right battery... :lol:

BajaWarrior - 7-13-2007 at 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El Camote
Anyone know how good the 6 volt golf cart batteries at Costco are? They are the same weight as the Trojan and the Powerstrides I'm currently using. The price is $63 each, no core charge. But are they quality?

[Edited on 7-11-2007 by BajaWarrior]

We shop religiously at the Morena Blvd location in San Diego, my wife lets me walk down that aisle and the tool aisle so I have seen them recently. They're not fancy, just a white box with a red top. I have the need to purchase 16-20 by next Xmas so I've been shopping.

Also, I have shopped Powerstride on Kurtz St. also in San Diego, they are a lot cheaper than Trojans, which I am currently using.