BajaNomad - It is not a lake anymore

It is not a lake anymore

bajajudy - 7-11-2007 at 07:19 PM

They bored through to open the marina today.
I have pix but my battery is dead. Will post tomorrow.

805gregg - 7-11-2007 at 07:34 PM

Just yesterday I read an article in the LA times about the damage to the estuary, and they hinted they thought the opening might be posponed. I thought to myself no way, guess I was right, unfortunately. It's good for the people that want to boats there. Not me.

Paula - 7-11-2007 at 08:39 PM

Sad news. I kept hoping that something would stop it-- like ethics, or common sense, or responsiveness to the will of the people. Kinda knew better.

Sharksbaja - 7-12-2007 at 02:00 AM

The whole thing sucks. By the time opposition gains enough steam to perhaps change the outcome it's too friggin' late. It seems to me ALL projects get completed pretty much as the initial plans call for. Another blow for coastal wildlife

Crusoe - 7-12-2007 at 06:33 AM

This is really too bad!!!......This will have immediate negative results in the loss of crtical and scarce wildlife habbitat. And later down the road in a few years, it will have very harsh effects on all the working people when their fresh water supply has dried up. This is another classic victory for the powers that be..... Mexican Politicos and big Drug Cartel honchos!!! They will just leave town in their big 90ft. yachts and go elsewhere.Why should they care. The real question is.....Why should we care???....This is business as usual in Mexico. It always has been this way and will always contiue to be this way. Very Sick!!!!! :fire:

Bob and Susan - 7-12-2007 at 06:36 AM

why would this have an "immediate negative results in the loss of crtical and scarce wildlife habbitat"????

how would the marina affect the fresh water supply????

how are the "Drug Cartels" involved????

David K - 7-12-2007 at 08:37 AM

The Sky is Falling! :lol:

jerry - 7-12-2007 at 08:41 AM

loreto bay must have been involved too?? :lol:

Paula - 7-12-2007 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
why would this have an "immediate negative results in the loss of crtical and scarce wildlife habbitat"????

how would the marina affect the fresh water supply????

how are the "Drug Cartels" involved????

http://oceans.greenpeace.org/raw/content/en/documents-report...

Here is a link with some info, Bob and Susan. I used google to find it. You can probably find more info on this subject using google. Maybe if you have time to really delve deep you can find out how the drug cartels are involved. I'd love to find all of the answers for you, but unfortunately I'm too busy today.

David K. I'm gonna sit here and LMAO when the sky falls on Shell Beach.

jerry You're a one trick pony.

Well, B&S, maybe the drug cartels aren't involved :lol:

but the Mexican government :yes:

[Edited on 7-12-2007 by Paula]

When Rape (of the land) is Inevitable.............

MrBillM - 7-12-2007 at 10:06 AM

Relax and enjoy (or at least accept) it.

This is the way of things in the past and of things to come.

Economic interests in the Third-World are likely to always trump other considerations. Unfortunately for those in distress, rapidly expanding wealth in the Western World in General and the U.S. in particular has made it possible and profitable to search out the better resort and recreational venues, however remote, and put them to use in servicing the desires of those possessing said wealth.

If areas in the remote South Pacific and Asia are being turned into playgrounds for those who have the assets, then somewhere as close as Mexico can expect to eventually have every single desirable spot used up.

In the Olden Golden days of American dominance of the Hemisphere, the common folks in Cuba, Hispaniola, Nicaragua and others did not revolt against the Rich Gringo influence because they were dissatisfied with all of the profligate wealth. They were only unhappy that they were not sharing in it.

Joni Mitchell Lamented that "They Paved Paradise to put up a Parking Lot", but actually they're doing it to put in Marinas and Resorts.

Enjoy Today. Tomorrow WILL be Worse.

Hook - 7-12-2007 at 10:31 AM

Doesn't Carlos Slim bear some responsibility?

China?

Bush Administration?

G-7?

Charlie Manson?

The Gays?

Kencito - 7-12-2007 at 10:51 AM

Sorry to hear that the estuary is now a marina. Maybe a good strong huricane will recitify the situation.
I don't subscribe to the theory that the destruction of Baja to placate rich gringos is inevitable. I'd say the rich running rough shod over the locals is what is not sustainable.
Many decades ago Los Angeles stole the water from Owen's Valley drying up the Owens River in the process. Today the Owens River is being restored and fish are reappearing. Times change. Soon, getting away with plundering Baja won't be so accepted either.

Apples and Oranges and L.A.

MrBillM - 7-12-2007 at 11:20 AM

Any comparison between ecological "triumphs" in the U.S. and the Third-World are, on their face, flawed.

We became rich enough in the U.S. to give weight to ecological concerns like the restoration of the Owens river and other such projects. As a result of that Wealth, we had the luxury of developing laws with a conscience and the court system to recognize environmental rights.

Back when L.A. diverted all of that water we were, by far, probably a richer nation per capita than Mexico is today. If you're going to look forward to the day that Mexico has the economic security to indulge themselves by denying development for ecological reasons, you will be either very old or dead.

Kencito - 7-12-2007 at 11:33 AM

I seem to remember that San Ignacio Lagoon was slated for major development.
It didn't happen. How does that square with the notion that big development is inevitable in Baja?

Loboron - 7-12-2007 at 11:33 AM

Crusoe
“This is really too bad!!!......This will have immediate negative results in the loss of crtical and scarce wildlife habbitat. And later down the road in a few years, it will have very harsh effects on all the working people when their fresh water supply has dried up. This is another classic victory for the powers that be..... Mexican Politicos and big Drug Cartel honchos!!! They will just leave town in their big 90ft. yachts and go elsewhere.Why should they care. The real question is.....Why should we care???....This is business as usual in Mexico. It always has been this way and will always contiue to be this way. Very Sick!!!!!
Totally ridiculous…

I’ve been reading this thread and the previous “Watch” threads with regards to the new marina in San Jose del Cabo, Baja California, Mexico. O.K. I know I’m a “Newbie” but folks, I’ve got more time in Baja and mainland Mexico than a lot of you have on this earth.

First off, I started going to Baja, Like Bernie, back in the late 50’s and early 60’s. I remember Ensenada when there were no paved roads. I recall the main source of transportation was walking, horses, horses and buggies, very few cars or trucks. So a “Newbie” I’m not when it comes to Baja California, Mexico.

Most of my time in Baja started in Cabo San Lucas; I used to run sportfishers down every year from San Diego. This was way before the marina was built. In those days we put down our own moorings, (that’s’ ground tackle. anchors, lines etc to hold the boats in place) for the season.

Back then and this is my point, there were only 4 hotels on the coast south of Palmilla, the Hotel Cabo San Lucas (arguably the most beautiful hotel in Cabo San Lucas) and now gone due to all the new resorts and resort homes to be built. The Hacienda Hotel, the Finisterra (“Lands End” built on the tip of Baja) and the Sol Mar Hotel. The only real hotel downtown back then was the Marti Cortez and that was it.

Now they’re hundreds of hotels and resorts, golf courses and homes, and homes, and resort homes, gated communities, with homes using precious water and electricity. These sites have eliminated all the “Protected” species, animals, birds, etc that were former dwellers in these habitats. Most all you Nomads have now moved into your new homes in Baja California, Mexico or are in the process of buying land or building your new retirement home on the once wide-open spaces of Baja, California, Mexico. Moving the birds, animal’s insects, etc. from the former habitats. Once there were deer in the Los Cabo areas, not any more…

I can remember when you could drink the water out of any hose or hydrant in Baja Sur, this was before all the home and resort building destroyed and contaminated the pipe lines that delivered the water from the springs in San Jose del Cabo and La Paz to all Baja California, Sur, Mexico. Today there’s a shortage of water for the locals and gringos alike, why? Not from the new marina in San Jose, or the marina in Cabo San Lucas, but from all the Golf courses, new homes and resort hotels all the Americans enjoy.

If it wasn’t for the Yachts and sportfishers back in the late 50’s and 60’s and 70’s this web site probably wouldn’t exist today. It was the growing fleet of yachts that traveled to Cabo San Lucas each season, which was 6 months long that made Cabo San Lucas what it is today, the most expensive port and city in all Mexico. The more yachts that came the more money spent in town. As the demand increased for services, so did the prices, they were not stupid. The more the word got out about the climate and fishing the more folks started coming down. The 4 hotels started promoting “Fly, Fish, and party packages, this brought the young people and the word spread even more. Then more flights and airlines were added. Now with all the folks flying in for a weekend of fishing, the price of hotels started rising and the demand for land started so they could build homes and stay longer.

Then with the new popularity came two TV series filmed on location in Cabo San Lucas, this caused thousands to start flying, driving, etc to get to beautiful Cabo San Lucas. Then the building boom started and as they say, “The rest is history”

I know, I’ve rattled on for a while, but it’s difficult to read and hear the “Land Lubbers” complain about the marina and it’s effects on the environment, when they turn a blind eye to what all the building has done to a formerly pristine location and it’s former environment. The fact is, as I’ve previously stated, the marina in Cabo San Lucas and all the yachts and all the money that’s spent has made Baja California Sur what it is today.

You complainers need to read a good book on Los Cabos; by Robert E. Jackson, it’s called Lost Cabos He clearly describes what was and what is today. There’s no mention of a marina in the book.

Just my 2 cents………….

bajajudy - 7-12-2007 at 11:37 AM

Well here is the 1000 words.
The irony of a rainbow in the background was not lost on me.

[Edited on 7-12-2007 by bajajudy]

open.jpg - 47kB

Frigatebird - 7-12-2007 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
...The irony of a rainbow in the background was not lost on me.

If you look carefully, it's a pot of Fool's Gold at the end of that rainbow.

The last of an era

bajajudy - 7-12-2007 at 11:49 AM

Probably wont see this site for too much longer

pangas.jpg - 47kB

Looking Good

MrBillM - 7-12-2007 at 11:50 AM

It is ALL Relative, as they say.

I remember as a Young Surfer in Southern California being outraged when they started building the marina at Dana Point and knowing it was going to destroy one of my favorite spots.

Years later, the first time I rented a slip for my Sailboat in Dana Point, I sat in the c-ckpit at sundown drinking a cold beer and reflecting back on those days. OH WELL.

Time and People change.

Hook - 7-12-2007 at 11:51 AM

Yeah, the whole peninsula outta still be a barren, wind-swept desert. :rolleyes:

Hey, somebody get down there and see what the launching situation is! :bounce:

Diver - 7-12-2007 at 11:57 AM

Other than the potential for environmental impact,
it looks like a darn nice place to bring your boat.
I'm afraid that is what the sentiment will be in future years as the marina becomes a fixture.
Hopefully, the impact will not be as bad as feared because there is no stopping this train !!

.

bajajudy - 7-12-2007 at 12:01 PM

Here is the borer. They have a huge generator(we can hear it all the way up at my house) to run this barge which has an LG minisplit to keep them cool.

[Edited on 7-12-2007 by bajajudy]

borer1.jpg - 47kB

bajajudy - 7-12-2007 at 12:02 PM

Ground level view

borer.jpg - 47kB

Cypress - 7-12-2007 at 12:08 PM

Progress cuts both ways. Depends upon whether or not you benefit or suffer. :?:

Lobo Ron

Sharksbaja - 7-12-2007 at 01:00 PM

So what you are implying is that we are all coconspirators by visiting and building on the cape? lol:
So the bottom line is "can't have yer cake and eat it too?" I digress.
It's simple, money vs wildlife. Money trumps(get it?..."Trumps") anything in Mexico. ...... and pretty much anywhere else. Golf? What golf??? No time to golf gotta land a Marlin first. I see many boats in the crystal ball. Too bad Norma 029 may lessen the days catch in the future. That's about wildlife tambien. Funny how some folks don't "get" the connection.

It's called "The food chain".

Loboron - 7-12-2007 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
So what you are implying is that we are all coconspirators by visiting and building on the cape? lol:
So the bottom line is "can't have yer cake and eat it too?" I digress.
It's simple, money vs wildlife. Money trumps(get it?..."Trumps") anything in Mexico. ...... and pretty much anywhere else. Golf? What golf??? No time to golf gotta land a Marlin first. I see many boats in the crystal ball. Too bad Norma 029 may lessen the days catch in the future. That's about wildlife tambien. Funny how some folks don't "get" the connection.

It's called "The food chain".

SharksBaja

No, I’m not saying it’s a co conspiracy; the word is Hypocritical, to hear these liberal environmentalists complain about the marina and then turn a blind eye to what has happened to the land is absurd.

Personally, neither one bothers me; it’s called growth and progress. The marinas in Cabo San Lucas (there are two) are full; they’re building a new one in San Jose del Cabo to accommodate the boats wishing to come down and stay. They too will be putting money into the local economy, buying supplies and hiring crews to work the boats. Which brings up another point with regards to boats, marinas and their impact. Mexican crew working American yachts, sportfishers, etc. earn between $800 and $1500.00 a month and have been for several years. I personally know two Mexicans (born in Cabo San Lucas) who are Captain’s of American sportfishers and make $4500.00 a month. How’s that for environmental impact on the locals. What do you folks pay your housekeepers, cooks and gardeners?

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I see many new developments popping up all round the San Jose del Cabo area, above and East of the new marina as well as the East Cape area to accommodate all the folks wanting to buy, or build. Then, Very noisy bulldozers will come and begin grading the land to build new homes and resorts.

One last example and I’ll be on my way, La Salina, Bernie’s and others favorite location. There’s was an estuary, small lagoon and channel to the other side of the freeway from the ocean. As a result of the demand for another marina and lack of space in Ensenada, a marina was built to accommodate the yachts coming to Ensenada. Long after the marina was started the surrounding lots on both sides of the freeway were sold and now there are some beautiful homes there, all of which were drawn to the area because of the marina, not the Lagoon or estuary. Most of the homes have the view of the marina and others both the marina and ocean. The point is, the marina came first, and then the homes and no one complained when the lagoon disappeared.

I did complain,

Baja Bernie - 7-12-2007 at 02:14 PM

but then most of the follks kindly informed me that,,,,,,,,,,,that was progress and that progress was good...........funny how progress is wonderful until it happens in your own back yard............Then even the descriptive words normally associated with 'human beings' (JR made me do that) become even more descriptive and in some cases down right nasty.

I finally got the message and progressed back to the states.

An aside. I had breakfast, yesterday, with a couple who live in Latin America and they observed that some of those Canadians and Americans who had flooded into Baja and, their words---"used it up"---were now flocking further south and bringing their distructive ways with them as they mouthed the words.....'thats progress.'

These folks seemed to believe that the Latins would not allow the same thing that has and is happening to Baja to happen in their Paradise.

Hope they are right! Oh! They did wonder where the destroyers would go once they had fouled their new nests. Africa????

Life Goes On

MrBillM - 7-12-2007 at 03:37 PM

My wife has lived in the same house for Thirty-Three years (before she met me) and beyond our back fence has been open desert all the way into the Joshua Tree Monument. We loved having the quail and rabbits come in each morning and evening to feed. Even the Coyotes howling at the back fence during the night were OK. It was cool to look out there and see those glowing eyes just beyond the fence. Last year, we received a notice that the New owner of that desert plot was seeking a zoning change to allow higher residential density. In January, we came back from Baja to find the land completely cleared and heavy equipment everywhere. Adding to the sense of loss, they have been filling and leveling the property so that our view out the back fence is now an Eight-Foot high berm of dirt to be replaced soon by a Concrete Block retaining wall. No Quail or Rabbits, anymore.

That's Life in a free country and a free-market where people have the Right to use their property to their best interest.

Hook - 7-12-2007 at 04:01 PM

When is the Marina Hussong supposed to be completed? Anyone?

Loboron - 7-12-2007 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
When is the Marina Hussong supposed to be completed? Anyone?

Don't expect it our life time. They haven't evicted the folks owning homes on the property yet. The only thing that has happened so far is they evicted all the RV's and cleared the property. Then they opened a sales office for the Condos.

jerry - 7-12-2007 at 04:31 PM

Sharks ITS CALLED THE FOOD CHAIN?? if you realy belive that the food chain should be not be disturbed CLOSE YOUR SEAFOOD REASTRANT sorry but you cant have it both ways

Paula you seem to be riding a dead horse of anti development

David K - 7-12-2007 at 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula

Quote:

but the Mexican government :yes:

[Edited on 7-12-2007 by Paula]

'Shell Beach' is near Punta Chivato and already developed... However, I know you are refering to the undeveloped barrier island I camp on, across the lagoon from Percebu... which I have been calling 'Shell Island' since 1977.

Development will probably happen someday soon, and only if I buy it or the government enforces the 'federal zone' (which all of Shell Island is inside of) is there a hope it will remain undeveloped. Maybe the tern nesting grounds in the dunes there will prevent condo construction?

I posted the comment above not because I support development... in fact I wish Baja still had only dirt roads... But, that you people who came to Baja AFTER paved roads and development to provide you with a place to stay are complaining about this new harbor!

I guess development until you discovered Baja was okay, but no more AFTER that point in time, right?

The sky fell a little in December, 1973 when Mexico 1 was officially completed... and a little more with each graded and paved road built since... There still are places in Baja that require 4WD to get to, and that gives us hope!

So, I am not in favor of development in Baja, but I am not so blind that it happening is going to freak me out.

Many examples of where development has not 'ruined' a place... just changed it...

Guerrero Negro salt works hasn't destroyed Scammon's Lagoon or chased away the whales...

Give nature some credit... She is more powerful than us!

[Edited on 7-13-2007 by David K]

Why, got a megayacht?

Dave - 7-12-2007 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
When is the Marina Hussong supposed to be completed? Anyone?

Completed? This is Mexico.

All financing is in place and Porto Hussong will begin in earnest early September. The breakwater will be at the top of the list. Over 60 mil devoted to the Marina alone. 300+ slips. (45' and up.)

The entire build-out is scheduled at 36-42 months.

The new airport at El Tigre will guarantee this project an easy sell. Only 15 minutes away.

rob - 7-12-2007 at 04:52 PM

Bajajudy - what great pictures! I am going to put that scene on my development company's coat of arms.

Golden sunset over dredger rampant.

rts551 - 7-12-2007 at 06:20 PM

Quote:

Which brings up another point with regards to boats, marinas and their impact. Mexican crew working American yachts, sportfishers, etc. earn between $800 and $1500.00 a month and have been for several years. I personally know two Mexicans (born in Cabo San Lucas) who are Captain’s of American sportfishers and make $4500.00 a month. How’s that for environmental impact on the locals.

WOW. Two mexicans.... whew time for another Pacifico

Subjective thoughts

Sharksbaja - 7-12-2007 at 11:51 PM

Gimme a break Jerry. Look, if you don't see the estuary as a viable existant fish and bird nursery for many species of Baja wildlife then I can't really discuss this issue with you properly. The context you continually use equating an established fishing port hundreds of years old where we have a restaurant and a semi-virgin breeding ground in Baja are miles apart in many ways. I can't understand really why you don't endorse the protection of rare areas that help spawn fish/birds for the large capitalist enterprises that you already seem to suppport or otherwise approve of.

Hey yer right tho, civilization marches on. It's a shame that these same "choice" areas of development are the same ones that provide the (future)animals that bring people there. But you may not agree that estuaries are as important as marinas. Others would disagree.

jerry - 7-13-2007 at 07:15 AM

acording to you and many others on this board you against any development in baja
no matter where in baja that development is being done it is going to effect some food chain
hell eating anythig is gona effect the food chain we are at the top
the comment seem to always be pointed twords greedy developers or Large capitalistic enterprises
i havent seen a single comment here on (oh now that a nice development)
i believe its jelousy , i got mine screw you atatude or my idea is more noble then yours is the driving force behind most if not all anti development
sorry sharks and your not alone but you need to look in your own back yard
mulege-- lets look at it in a real perspective all the gringo propertys along the river should be dismanteled and all infroesrtucture septic tanks and all removed, the river should not be dredged or cleaned up it should be naturall it was and should be returned to a estuary reverted back and i think you Sharks should lead the way

Sharksbaja - 7-13-2007 at 11:27 AM

Yep that's right Jerry. I would like my own poshe hotel which would require me to fill in a mangrove swamp. Yer brilliant for figuring out that it's all about jealousy. How frickin' rediculous. Actually I'm all for grand development......in Rosarito Beach.

Mexitron - 7-13-2007 at 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
It is ALL Relative, as they say.

I remember as a Young Surfer in Southern California being outraged when they started building the marina at Dana Point and knowing it was going to destroy one of my favorite spots.

Years later, the first time I rented a slip for my Sailboat in Dana Point, I sat in the c-ckpit at sundown drinking a cold beer and reflecting back on those days. OH WELL.

Time and People change.

I was around 10 years old when the Dana Point breakwater was put in...Loren Harrison, God rest his soul, was remodeling our house and took me surfing one day there before the construction, so at least I can say I did it too! In 2003 I was hired to put in the landscaping for the DP Marine Institute so I benefitted from the progress too.

That said, my math teacher in high school, Herb Oelke, showed us home movies of him surfing Killer Dana on the last day of school--can't say I'd feel too bad if the harbor wasn't there!

On the estruary--there's still lots of estruaries in Baja that could probably be bought cheap right now--protect them with private ownership the way the Nature Conservancy does!

jerry - 7-13-2007 at 06:17 PM

Sharks well guess you answered one the questions?? its more of the( i got mine screw you) (you cant have what you want)

what about your own back yard in mulege the estruary?? thats being cleaned out?? while the septic tanks leach fields are poulute it?
yes its fricken rediculas you cant see whats happening in your own back yard??
by the way resturante owner are capitalists too
by the way im not pro development or anti development i just get tired of the holyer then thou BS here gringos trying to run mexico

Russ - 7-13-2007 at 06:38 PM

"The good old days" .... "The Grass is always greener......." Memories ..... Jeeze, I liked Shell Beach when I was the second or third house there. That's why I built. I also liked it when I was camping on the beach there too. And the drive to Cabo in '68 on the "trail". And sure I get upset when another piece of my vision of paradise is developed. And Laguna, where I grew up, it's frigg'n Hollywood now. Point is........ there is no point. Sﬁ‡› happens have a drink and enjoy it the sun set.

Way-off pal

Sharksbaja - 7-14-2007 at 02:01 AM

I'll tell ya what Jerry I'll stop trying to run Mexico if you stop pretending you know anything about me. You don't do you? If you judge people by their actions rather than just words like I do then you would have bona fide and credible info. But you just spew generalisms and avoid the real context of the original thread. Which was........? :?:

Certainly you think I/we contribute negatively here in Oregon and in Baja. Sorry you feel that way.
It's clear to me you could give a crap what happens there. That's your decision. Sorry you feel that way.

btw, could you share your keen knowledge of the quality of the rio in Mulege, thanks?

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
Sharks well guess you answered one the questions?? its more of the( i got mine screw you) (you cant have what you want)

what about your own back yard in mulege the estruary?? thats being cleaned out?? while the septic tanks leach fields are poulute it?
yes its fricken rediculas you cant see whats happening in your own back yard??
by the way resturante owner are capitalists too
by the way im not pro development or anti development i just get tired of the holyer then thou BS here gringos trying to run mexico

jerry - 7-14-2007 at 06:57 AM

my point is that everyone living in baja will leave a negative effect on the area that includes you not just the people you point your fingers at
if your going to complane about the food chain and want to do something about it stop serving food to people?? capitalism is a good thing isnt it??
please inform me about the rio?? was it not a estuary?? is it not being polluated by septics tanks leach?? is it not being cleaned out?? destroying the nateral way it was??kinda like a miny marina isnt it??
in your own back yard or is it your front yard
as for knowing you no never met you but i have read your spewing here and i do know where your business is i have eaten in your place had some food chain and it was great
and your house in mulege on the river saw it after the flood

as for not caring about baja i do care a lot
enoff to voice my objection to having gringos run it

Cypress - 7-14-2007 at 12:23 PM

Sharks, Russ and jerry. Ya'll got a good knock-down-drag-out going on.

Sorta like tag team wrestlers. Pro-development.

Anti-development.

I'm with Sharks. Who wants a major-mega outfit for a next-door neighbor, unless you're looking for buy-out. :yes:

jerry - 7-14-2007 at 12:32 PM

im not for sale neather is my property

Don Alley - 7-14-2007 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
...as for not caring about baja i do care a lot
enoff to voice my objection to having gringos run it

Awe, come on Jerry. You only voice your objection to the gringos who are NOT running baja.

Seems to me the local agenda has pretty much been set by the Loreto Bay Company, the Villas Group, the Spanish at San Bruno...

Do the Spanish count as gringos? :lol:

[Edited on 7-14-2007 by Don Alley]

Russ - 7-14-2007 at 01:28 PM

It is happening here too. I don't know when but I'm told the plans for phase 1 are completed. With all the problems PROFEPA has hit us with I'll sell.