BajaNomad - More PROFEPA raids/citations ?

More PROFEPA raids/citations ?

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 10:58 AM

I "heard" that PROFEPA has struck the Mulége area. Also that there was an article in a La Paz paper about it. 90 properties have been cited and even the Presidents project along the river was stopped. Does anyone have any "real" info?
Oh, and they're back! The seiners from HELL

Seiner 8:8:07.jpg - 49kB

Hook - 8-8-2007 at 12:03 PM

Russ, could you give us the general background on this issue again?

If it's the issue of encroachment into the Federal tidal zone, then I have an acquaintence who has a place in Posada Concepcion who has apparently been told he has to pay up for this. I know no other details; not the amount nor who served him the demand. But supposedly others in Posada were served with this.

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 01:23 PM

This is a huge issue for us in the Punta Chivato area. Last year, June and/or July '06, PROFEPA people showed up and forced those of us here to sign documents. Under threat of jail. There were more than a dozen in pairs canvasing the whole area. Since many people weren't here they just shoved the citations in a crack in a window or scotched taped them to something. Most of those were destroyed by hurricane John or other summer storms. The citations, which few could understand, addressed three major issues. 1) The first document/citation covered Encroachment on the federal zone. The second covered 2) removal of native plants, ie grading of building sites without the environmental study and 3) building without federal permits. and we had 15 days to respond. Well, this year they returned and some were cited and fined for not responding. Of what I understand, the fines started at $10,000usd. Each property has individual issues but the fine were mostly for not responding to last years notices. Our dilema was/is who to hire to address this mess. Last year a few of us hired a guy to work out the mess with PROFEPA. Both gringos & local owners. He did do something for me because I didn't receive a penalty notice that I am aware of. To make this shorter Most of PC hired another firm this year. Lots of panicking homeowners now with lots of rumors and misinformation but I have confidence in Hilario Toba and although the process is slow I believe it is moving forward. I learned today that Hilario has been successful with the land issues concerning the original development on Parcel 121. But is continuing his plan on Shell Beach.
This is just another test of patients living here in Mexico. Of course some describe it MUCH more strongy. I'll be happy to respond to anyone with information as I understand it. But do NOT take it as fact. I will not get into any peeing matches. So be nice. Russ

CaboRon - 8-8-2007 at 01:25 PM

Russ,

Do you know if these buyers had done title search a or title insurance ? I personally don't know if either carries any weight in Mexico. I do understand there are only a couple of companies that offer title insurance in Mexico.

Would be very interested in your comments,

- CaboRon

Diver - 8-8-2007 at 01:35 PM

Ron,

This is not a title insurance issue.

This is an issue of either building wthin the Federal Zone or not getting the correct permit to build adjacent to the zone, prior to construction.

.

CaboRon - 8-8-2007 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Ron,

This is not a title insurance issue.

This is an issue of either building wthin the Federal Zone or not getting the correct permit to build adjacent to the zone, prior to construction.

.

My mistake .... I was under the impression that a title search would also involve the actual position of the lot eg. survey showing whether it encroached on other properties private or public, or rights of way, etc.

How do you protect yourself ? This could be an extreemly expensive mistake .... if indeed a mistake were made ......

What a drag,
CaboRon

Osprey - 8-8-2007 at 01:43 PM

Last year PROFEPA took what I heard was about $400K US out of the people living along this broad bay, Palmas Bay at East Cape for the aforementioned 3 violations. As far as I know no title policy in Mexico covers these fines as they are not a clear part of chain of title. Property owners here naturally looked to the original sellers, developers, realtors and contractors who they thought might have been remis but all the ones I know about had to finally "go it alone" as they discovered PROFEPA and SEMARNAT found easier and better heeled targets > the property owner. Once the fine posters realized what a bonanza East Cape might be they came driving up not in cars but in buses. Can you say "abogado de la ley?"

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 01:44 PM

Local permits, fideicomiso nor title insurance gave us any clues as to what was needed/required form the feds. And now they all dumby up. 15 years later I'm suddenly informed. My fault, the law has been there since 1988 or so. But NO locals provided information and won't today.

[Edited on 8-8-2007 by Russ]

CaboRon - 8-8-2007 at 01:51 PM

Russ,

I am truly sorry about what has got to feel like a Kafka inspired tragedy.

It looks as if those properties are going to cost a lot more than anyone anticipated.

Good Luck,
CaboRon

Diver - 8-8-2007 at 02:01 PM

I found this book particulary helpful.

http://www.mexicanlaws.com/SEMARNAT/SEMARNAT_GUIDES.htm

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 02:03 PM

Diver is correct. I put my driveway to my property line on the beach and since the federal zone was measured after hurricane John's high tide mark I am in that area adjacent to the fed zone. I'm hoping to get a new federal zone survey in my favor. We'll see when we see. But there are still the issues of clearing the building site. Which was done prior to me purchase. And construction or improvements.

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 02:25 PM

Diver, Great find! I'm afraid to delv into to all that. After all I moved down here to avoid bureaucratic non-sense in Kitsap County.
Now can you find a source on what the commercial fishing regs are for Bahia Concepcion and The Playa Santa Inez area? I've written a couple of the "Green Folks" without response. There just has to be something about it out there. I thought it was a reserve of some kind but the sardineros continue to scoop up every bait ball here. What a disaster!

[Edited on 8-8-2007 by Russ]

flyfishinPam - 8-8-2007 at 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
Diver, Great find! I'm afraid to delv into to all that. After all I moved down here to avoid bureaucratic non-sense in Kitsap County.
Now can you find a source on what the commercial fishing regs are for Bahia Concepcion and The Playa Santa Inez area? I've written a couple of the "Green Folks" without response. There just has to be something about it out there. I thought it was a reserve of some kind but the sardineros continue to scoop up every bait ball here. What a disaster!

[Edited on 8-8-2007 by Russ]

I don´t know where my response went of well,

russ I tried to say to send the photo and the informaiton to Sea Watch. their
website is www.seawatch.org and they will be very interested in this. also perhaps Minerva who is tracking NOM 029 violations. Her website is www.minervas.com

I am sorry to hear about the profepa intrusion it is very out of line to blame a person who bought an existing property. Can´t understand why they don´t have the sense to grandfather in properties that have existed for years before they came along to inspect. This ought to be made more public so others buying property here will be veen more careful. The high tide lines change with storms and they ought to consider that in their laws. If Mexico wants to sell off all her beachfront she ought to be very clear on the law and not deceive the very investors they keep begging for, it just ain´t right.

[Edited on 8-8-2007 by flyfishinPam]

Bob and Susan - 8-8-2007 at 04:55 PM

no pam.. the law is specific...

if you chose to buy or build directly on the federal zone you take the chance

you can apply for a variance yearly if the "tides change" and you find out you're in the federal zone all of a sudden even one inch

then you pay a fee

toneart - 8-8-2007 at 04:56 PM

Russ,

In your first post you mentioned the Mulege area and the "President's project along the river..."

Did you mean the Governor's clean up project after Hurricane John? Also do you have any information as to where, besides Punta Chivato the cited 90 properties lie?

flyfishinPam - 8-8-2007 at 05:02 PM

I am not saying the law isn´t specific but it ought to be made public knowledge and not so secret, especially given the fact that Mexico wants foreign investment.

Bob and Susan - 8-8-2007 at 05:03 PM

you are correct

none of the locals know the law

you're right

education is needed

flyfishinPam - 8-8-2007 at 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
you are correct

none of the locals know the law

you're right

education is needed

and these laws that are so importans as to how they affect beachfront investments ought be be made available in ENGLISH which is the language that most of the investment dinero comes from. If Mexico wants foreign investment then she ought to not continue to deceive and surprize the very investors she continues to pander to.

Bob and Susan - 8-8-2007 at 05:09 PM

i disagree

spanish is the language
too bad if you cant read or speak

just lke the states...why so many languages
english only

and they don't deceive...
it's the training of the local government that is lacking

locals dont know
there should be a better education system

Baja Bernie - 8-8-2007 at 05:18 PM

One simple comment from an old mossback................Money flows with the tide and it always has.

rob - 8-8-2007 at 06:30 PM

FlyFishinPam - properties ARE grandfathered - but before the major law change in 1988. If you can find a photo of the offending item taken or apparently taken before 1988, or get a letter signed by an aged local stating that said object existed years ago - no problema! If you see what I mean . . . .

These federal zone laws are clear, concise and available to all - in Spanish of course. What is not nearly as clear is the exact point of "highest maximum tide" . . . our beach here on the Pacific STILL has clear high tide marks from the big hurricane of Sep 2001 - only they weren't tide marks, it was where the flooding arroyo dropped the trees on the beach.

I hired a local survey engineer do our federal marine zone survey - but when I found him measuring the "seaweed marks" on the rocks to determine high tide point, we parted company. There is only one scientific way to find the high tide point, I am told. You get a marine group to put a tide machine on your beach for 6 months and take readings (at hideous cost) - they then feed this into a calculus function, derive some sort of constant for YOUR beach - and there you go.

For the rest of us - find a surveyor who agrees with you and make him your - special - friend.

Bob and Susan - 8-8-2007 at 06:36 PM

"find a surveyor who agrees with you and make him your - special - friend."

that will ONLY work if he works for the local Profepa and that WILL not happen...they work "by-the-book"

Profepa has he LAST word :wow:

if it was built since the law then you NEED a permit period.

if you don't have one "prepare for punishment"

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 06:42 PM

toneart , that info was passed on to me and I don't know the facts. It would have been in Sunday or Mondays La Paz paper. And with a bad case of CRS it could have been the governor.
Pam, I have sent SeaWatch two or three E-mails> I'll try the other person tonight. I'm not even sure that what they are doing is illegal. It's just a shame that yesterday we had bait balls in the bay and tonight there are NONE. Thank you and Susan/Bob for your kind thoughts. I would like to see every fidiecomiso or title come with an information packet explaining/informing people of the possibilities that there are local and federal regulations to be considered prior to any improvements or changes to the property. And give some resources to investigate those regulations. Maybe like a discloser statement in the States. I don't care if it is only in Spanish. That's what our friends love to help us with and we learn a bit more in the doing. Regarding the federal zone: yes I did put improvements on my land abutting the federal restriction zone and I will be happy (NOT) to pay the piper. Once that is taken care of I'm told I can apply for a concession with an annual free and that should help with any future complaints. I have a problem there too. Someone as already applied for the concession. I'll worry about that after solving this set of problems. I do think that we will be hearing a lot more about this though because PROFEPA has gone rabid. CACHING! $

Russ - 8-8-2007 at 07:00 PM

They also use a phrase that means "mean high tide" and it kinda depends on who does the survey and what the mood is. And they set the zone some where behind, land side, of that, then no encroachment/improvements 20 meters beyond that.Also the beach comes and goes seasonally and here it's the summer when it goes. I was sitting in tall cotton until we had a high tide with a storm and I lost about 20 meters. Since the high tides this week didn't go over the old high tide berm and it is building up again I should be okay.

Roberto - 8-8-2007 at 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
I just did some poking around, and the only legal definition of the federal zone I could find is in the Ley General de Bienes Nacionales where it specifies 20 meters beyond the MAXIMUM ANNUAL HIGH TIDE.

That is correct. And, I can tell you from experience, that if the survey happens on a year when tides were exceptionally high, you are screwed. Especially considering the fact that the surveys are not taken yearly - more like every five-ten years.

Pescador - 8-8-2007 at 08:16 PM

Russ, in San Lucas cove they came in and did a survey and put cement markers with a brass cap on the Federal Zone line, did they not do that in Punta Chivato?

oladulce - 8-9-2007 at 01:00 AM

Yesterday the Ingeniero who's been acting as our SEMARNAT liason told me PROFEPA (La Paz) is currently shut down because they ran out of money!

Bob and Susan - 8-9-2007 at 02:56 AM

not true

i was there monday and will be there today

Osprey - 8-9-2007 at 05:50 AM

The mojoneros, the cement monuments, I am told, are good for 15 years. There is some strange science at work around here -- one day I saw two Mexican workmen in swimsuits in a rubber raft, a few meters from the shorline, holding a wooden marker (vertical, touching the bottom) being read by a guy with a transom up on the beach. I'm no Pythagoras but that reading wouldn't tell you much and it would not have a long life no matter where that particular science was aimed.

Russ - 8-9-2007 at 06:02 AM

Bob and Susan
Good luck with PROFEPA today. You sound like you have been around the block with them already. My friends were there Monday & Tuesday and had very successful meetings. See what you can find out about their sweep through Mulege area last week. Hope to hear good things about your meetings too. Your project is looking really nice now. Is Efren still your contractor. He built my 1st house and is honest, caring and smart. Please say hola to him for me. Russ

Minnow - 8-9-2007 at 08:27 AM

Everyone thinking of buying on the beach in Mexico should read this thread. Russ, please keep us updated on what becomes of this.

Diver - 8-9-2007 at 08:56 AM

Can someone post the location and phone number for the PROFEPA office ?
Thanks.

Russ - 8-9-2007 at 09:19 AM

This is what is at the bottom of my papers:
Colima 320 E/A Serdan y Guillermo Prieta, La Paz, BCS CP23060 Tel 01 (612) 123 0502
But when Bob & Susan return maybe they could update this.

craiggers - 8-9-2007 at 09:26 PM

It sounds like those affected need to band together and hire a lawyer to fight PROFEPA. Mean high tide has nothing to do with a high tide mark on the beach caused by tidal surges due to storms or other anomolies such as a sunami. In fact, by definition, it will always be somewhere seaward of the "highest high water mark".

Mean high tide is the average of all the high tides at a given location over an 18 yr period without local anomolies. It also happens to be a poor way of establishing a property line. This is because mean tidal measurments establish the height of the waters surface and not where the water intersects the land. This means that as beach sand erodes and the approach to the property steepens, the property line moves landward. This is also why they can push you back 20 m away from a cliff face that intersects the mean high tide mark.

Bob and Susan - 8-9-2007 at 11:01 PM

The Profepa did come to the "bay" last week
russes address is correct....
320 Colima St between Serdan y Guillermo Prieta, La Paz, BCS CP23060 Tel 01 (612) 123 0502
it's in a house near the CCC store

It WAS NOT a "raid"!!!
it was an audit for permits and nothing else

the word "citation" means something different in this context
it means they "tell" you Profepa is entering your property to conduct an audit...nothing else
if you fail the audit then...you need to address it

no one was targeted

at least 14 members came to my place
all were very profesional and nice.
they had INM people from other areas accompany them to avoid problems

they told me out of 100 properties audited 90% were NOT in compliance

I was not in compliance for the construction...
My Enviornmental Permit was not complete

I received NO fine
You do need to reply to Porfepa within 5 days
I did
I did have to post a "refundable bond" to continue construction
This was paid at the bank...

I was in compliance for the "federal zone"
NO problems there

The people at Profepa were completly Fair and Reasonable
Professional ALL the way.

The lesson here is:
if you have built since the law about the Enviormental Permit you NEED a permit NOW
APPLY NOW
and
DO NOT start construction until you have a "completed" Enviormental Permit PERIOD!!!

there will be some "unhappy campers" next winter...watch for the whining
later :yes:

Russ - 8-10-2007 at 04:10 AM

Way to go!!! Bob & Susan I'm really happy for you! I guess the secret is to address the issue promptly. Below is a copy of a card I just received for PROFEPA.

PROFEPA card2.jpg - 50kB

oldhippie - 8-10-2007 at 05:44 AM

This is interesting to me because I recently bought a house on the Mexican coastline, although only 0.7 miles south of the border, but nonetheless in Mexico. The highest of high tides around here are in the first two weeks of January. Plus, the winter storms scoop away the beach sand resulting in practically the disappearance of the beach during these high tides. The water comes up to the 30 foot or so bluff that I'm on top of and maybe 50 meters back from. So I'm close to federal zone.

It's amazing how the sand comes back in the spring and the beach reappears. I've determined by observation that the winter "wash out" moves the sand only slightly off shore and then it comes back by normal wave action after the winter storms dissipate.

Anyway it seems reasonable to me to find out when the highest of high tides occur in your area using tide charts, determine where the high water mark is then, and then measure back the required distance from there. That should define the limits of the federal zone by anybody's definition.

As a side note, if you ever come to Playas de Tijuana and look at the coastal development by the bullring, you'll see abandoned, dilapidated buildings right on the beach front. I've heard, and it seems reasonable, that the Government has determined these old structures are too close to what is now the shoreline and has frozen development, essentially making the land, and buildings atop, worthless.

IF global warming is true and the ocean levels are rising, there may be many more of these types of problems in the next couple of decades.

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 06:52 AM

There's another part to the high tide thing. I don't remember all the details, but it's something a (Mexican) friend of mine ran into and explained to me. It has to do with how level the ground is next to the water. For example, if a hill starts right at the water's edge, as long as there is elevation, the land is all part of the Federal Zone. Indeed an island that is one big hill would be an example of that. Once again, I don't know all the details, but I am sure this much is correct.

vandenberg - 8-10-2007 at 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
There's another part to the high tide thing. I don't remember all the details, but it's something a (Mexican) friend of mine ran into and explained to me. It has to do with how level the ground is next to the water. For example, if a hill starts right at the water's edge, as long as there is elevation, the land is all part of the Federal Zone. Indeed an island that is one big hill would be an example of that. Once again, I don't know all the details, but I am sure this much is correct.

oldhippie - 8-10-2007 at 07:38 AM

I think I understand what you are saying, perhaps this is an example. There was a planned development of perhaps 20 houses here in playas on top of the bluff. The developer had it all planned out and was selling lots. It turns out that the maps being used to determine the federal zone were 20 or more years old so the Government did a new survey.

The result of which was that to go ahead with the development the developer had to get a federal zone concession and build a significant barrier both deep into and high above ground level at the base of the bluff to combat erosion.

The development is now being re-engineered with fewer houses further back from the edge of the bluff. That then will need approval and the developer is hoping the retaining wall requirement and buying a concession will be eliminated.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by oldhippie]

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 08:07 AM

Yes, I think another way (better?) to phrase it is that the distance from the high tide line must be horizontal (flat), to count. Any advancement on an incline must be subtracted.

Mas o menos, that's the way it works.

oldhippie - 8-10-2007 at 08:20 AM

por supuesto

oldhippie - 8-10-2007 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Yes, I think another way (better?) to phrase it is that the distance from the high tide line must be horizontal (flat), to count.

por supuesto

Osprey - 8-10-2007 at 08:33 AM

Larry, thanks for clearing up my post -- the guy had a transit, not a transom. That wasn't a tipo, just dumb old me. Actually I think the guy was using a theodolite (hope that's a telescope, not a religious fanatic).
A. The reason I was interested was that he was a couple hundred meters from the shoreline/marker placement -- the shot he took would just be a wasted snapshot during the inexorable changing of the water's depth, the adding or subtracting of sandy bottom about 30 feet out from the shoreline.
B. Since our Co op got the shore concession 8 years ago, storms have added almost 200 meter seaward from the markers so while the markers now indicate where the ejido sold all the inshore land, we have the concession rights to one kilometer of all new beach, new sand. It is the fishing fleet launch/haul place for this little town so it means everything to us. When they start building the hotel/marinas in November I'll report how it impacts the zona maritima, our concession, our beach.

Diver - 8-10-2007 at 08:46 AM

Osprey et al,

Most likely, the surveyor was set up on a previous control point.
He was remeasuring water depth (positive or negative) from the known points that had been checked last time the survey was done.
He would then locate the new high water line and show both in a comparative survey.
Is it possible that the water line moved in enough to put the old high tide line into the water ?

.

Osprey - 8-10-2007 at 08:50 AM

Nope, just the other way around -- bizzillions of tons of new sand stolen from other beaches or dredged up and moved inshore by winter winds.

That Mean Old Tide.

MrBillM - 8-10-2007 at 09:12 AM

The Standard for establishing Boundaries is usually MEAN High tide which is established as an average over a specific 19 year period. A one-time survey shouldn't establish a new line, but it is Mexico. Who knows what standards they use at any given moment. It is what they say it is.

bacquito - 8-10-2007 at 09:28 AM

I came across this:http://www.profepa.gob.mx/PROFEPA/ComunicacionSocial/BoletinesdeMedios/CP+081-07.htm

OK, But ?

MrBillM - 8-10-2007 at 10:02 AM

It only states the purpose behind the program which is to identify non-conforming development. Didn't we already know that ?

Hook - 8-10-2007 at 10:14 AM

Looks like the Mexican government has figured out a way to make money off of landowners as a result of any global warming that increases the level of the oceans. :biggrin:

This is just so bogus if there is no publicly codified criteria for defining and determining just what is the limit of the federal zone. IT HAS TO BE WRITTEN SOMEWHERE........

Iflyfish - 8-10-2007 at 10:23 AM

So much for drawing lines in the sand eh?

Is this a Mexican sandoff?

Sorry, couldn't stop myself

Iflyfish

Russ - 8-10-2007 at 11:15 AM

Drawing lines in the sand and Mexican Stand off Rich! :tumble:

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
This is just so bogus if there is no publicly codified criteria for defining and determining just what is the limit of the federal zone. IT HAS TO BE WRITTEN SOMEWHERE........

I am more than certain that it is codified quite accurately somewhere. So what? To paraphrase - "all rules/laws are local" :lol:

Bob and Susan - 8-10-2007 at 11:33 AM

that's it... right on the head...

inspectors walk on the beach

look for a high tide mark
and
measure....

their word is final :lol:

care to argue??? prepare for punishment :lol:

moral: build several feet off the federal zone if possible

Cypress - 8-10-2007 at 11:34 AM

I'm thinking that beach erosion comes to play in this issue.

One bad storm can chew up a lot of beach and everything on it. :tumble:

You could call it sea versus land. :spingrin:

"Castles built on sand will tumble into the sea." Who said that?

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
inspectors walk on the beach

look for a high tide mark
and
measure....

their word is final :lol:

Yes, my Mexican friend decided he was going to argue. The markers Profepa were patently wrong. The outcome? 3+ years of arguing, and in the end he had to take the buildings down anyway.

oldhippie - 8-10-2007 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

I am more than certain that it is codified quite accurately somewhere. So what? To paraphrase - "all rules/laws are local" :lol:

True, and not just in Mexico. As I once was told by a US Customs inspector "I make the rules" when I explained to him what I read on the .gov website. It had to do with medications I was bringing back to the US.

Bob and Susan - 8-10-2007 at 01:56 PM

"you catch more flies with honey than vinagar"

But..............

MrBillM - 8-10-2007 at 02:01 PM

They're also crazy about Scheisse.

Who wants to catch Flies. anyway ?

tripledigitken - 8-10-2007 at 02:27 PM

How does one get a confirmation of the mean high tide, which is predicated on a 19 year mean, when it appears no historical records exist? Records for the general area maybe but not for your specific lot?

Can't you just hear someone saying well will get started now and will talk to you in 19 years. :lol:

Roberto - 8-10-2007 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
I suggest that it behooves the landowner to understand the laws and in case of inconformity, to work with the officials to help make sure the law is faithfully implemented. In Mexico, going ballistically adversarial is usually counter-productive... :lol:

--Larry

If you are going to "disagree" or "negotiate" do so BEFORE they put that marker down and tell you that you must destroy whatever you've put on the beach. :lol:

Larry, I'm sure you recognize that as usual, money talks loudest in these situations. With the right connections, and the right amount of motivation, all kinds of concessions are granted - check out the east cape sometime.

The situation I am personally familiar with has to do with a number of people that were suddenly found to encroach on the federal zone in an area where McCarthy (read Escalera Nautica) had made noise about building a malecon around a large part of a bay in mid-peninsula, and room had to be made for it. Amazing what happens in these cases.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Roberto]

19-Year Lunar Cycle

MrBillM - 8-11-2007 at 06:58 AM

I assume that your are quoting 1988 simply because it is 19 years back.

Using the standard reference datum, 2007 is the 13th year of the current 19-year cycle.

How it is computed in Mexico ? Quien Sabe ?

Hook - 8-13-2007 at 08:25 AM

Larry, I have no dog in this fight; that's why I havent done any research. I was just mystified at all the hand-wringing from people who are when it came to book and verse on the definition and the procedure.

That's why I said it "has to be written somewhere".

Personally, I'm generally not interested in purchasing land right on the water. The baggage that comes with it in the form of increased regulations, increased scrutiny, wildly inflated prices and encroachment rights of the general public for recreation is not worth the price premium. Plus, in many cooler areas, the climate is better a mile or so back from the water.

I'd rather be a few hundred yards back and visit the shoreline as one of the public encroachers. :lol: