BajaNomad - Gringos in Mexican towns - Meddlers or mentors

Gringos in Mexican towns - Meddlers or mentors

Osprey - 8-19-2007 at 04:24 PM

Let's try this again. Surely more than a half dozen gringos or others on this board have some thoughts about how gringos should/would/could interact with locals in developing Mexican communities in Baja (aren't they all). Subject died on a Loreto thread like it was infected or totally unimportant. Nobody lives down here? Nobody has homes down here? Nobody plans to retire down here? Hellllllloooo!

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 04:28 PM

Why don't you ask a specific question?

bajajudy - 8-19-2007 at 04:35 PM

I am here, seahawk
I have found that generally the people of this area are not politically motivated. There has been very little resistance from the people of La Playa to the marina...should there have been?....I guess not....it is their village.
As for my participating in any kind of protest, I might would have if there had been one in the village. I would feel more comfortable joining one if I already had my Mexican citizenship.
A friend of mine who is very involved with saving the estuary was here for dinner a few weeks back and I told her, "You know I was very active in the late 60's, early 70's. I was in front of St Pats in NYC for the huge candlelight protest and I was in Washington for the Moratorium but I really never felt like anything I did actually did any good so I just gave up."
What does that make me? A realist, I think

Marie-Rose - 8-19-2007 at 05:03 PM

We haven't been in TS for extended periods as yet, (only several months at a time) but
I do find it an intersting problem.
Living in our little bario I feel like I want to help, but need to give my head a shake and really question my intentions. I worry that the influx of us foreigners is not always making things easier... so am tempted to get involved in projects to "improve" their life!!! Then I need to think..."just because I think it is an improvement, do they"?
In TS there was great debate about the involvement of gringo's and the survival of the local bomberos. Many thought the locals would have stepped up to the plate, and taken care of business, had the gringo's "thrown money" at the problem. :?:

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
was in front of St Pats in NYC for the huge candlelight protest and I was in Washington for the Moratorium but I really never felt like anything I did actually did any good so I just gave up."
What does that make me? A realist, I think

It makes you a defeatist if you think your efforts weren't understood. I was in the movement as well and our efforts did make a difference. Yours, Judy, more than others. You spoke out at your own peril and your voice was heard. We gave the Nixon government a reason to stop our war.
Unlike today, the sentiment was voiced by patriots like you.
Today, the patriots are afraid to come forward because it isn't a popular movement.
Too bad for us. The people can stop the crap of today but, we havn't the organization to do it.
Hang in there, Judy. We will do our best.

Osprey - 8-19-2007 at 06:05 PM

Dennis, you didn't intentionally turn this thread into a "The way we were" thing, I'm sure. Now, let's get back to basics. How do Nomads feel about how gringos should act or (not act) in the villages of Baja California as they buy lots, build houses, become parts of the community. I'll try til somebody tells me the board members don't care about that kind of stuff and then I'll find another board.

bajajudy - 8-19-2007 at 06:12 PM

Hold on Osprey
Dennis was commenting on what I said, which, of course, had nothing to do with what you want to talk about. It was supposed to be an explanation for why I will probably not be involved in any protest here.

If no one else wants to discuss it...so be it. :dudette:

longlegsinlapaz - 8-19-2007 at 06:20 PM

Hey Jorge, I live here....have a home here....already retired down here!

I agree with what Judy & Marie-Rose said...I'll do battle for a cause I believe in & I think is in the best interest of the majority without expectation of personal gain....i.e., speak up for the underdog; help the downtrodden. HOWEVER, Marie-Rose nailed what's always been an issue for me as well....we come from such diverse cultures & USA/Mexican laws & governmental agencies are so different in how they approach things. I believe we have more & demand more for ourselves & our families, and we have rights that aren't inherent in this culture. We look at things differently, we do things differently (insure our bodies, homes & cars, save for a "rainy day", college for our kids, our retirement, etc.). We look beyond today! I think the majority of the local population is simply happier with what they have, they're less materialistic & probably less trusting of promises made by anyone. Most don't have the financial resources that we have (however meager those resources might seem to us, we're virtually ALL RICH in their eyes). I believe we both want what's best for ourselves & our families, but I also doubt that the top 25 items/laws/community improvements on Mexicano lists & gringo lists of "How or what would improve life for my family/my community/my country"....well, I think they'd be very diverse specifics on each of our lists.

I don't feel that the general population is given much opportunity to volunteer their input in a manner where anyone in authority will honestly be listening. The government decides what's best for them, like it or not. And it typically follows the all-mighty-dinero....little people are bulldozed right out of the way of "progress"! :no:

If asked for my opinion or input, I'm forthcoming, but I sincerely feel that our wants/needs/expectations are so culturally different, that Mexicanos should have the final say in what's best for themselves & their community. We are guests here & as such, should not impose our values & cultural differences on our hosts.

I'd like to see is multi-national task forces or research groups, with qualified international input....with locals listening to why we feel something could improve their lives, and locals making an educated bottom-line decision. Does anyone know if any qualified experts ever volunteer to work with state or federal governmental agencies to give viable experience & input on individual & unique area solutions....water conservation & acquisition, recycling, basura disposal, environmentally friendly issues, including the live resources in the oceans surrounding Baja, etc., etc.? People volunteering for the RIGHT reasons, not "on the take consultants" who sell their opinions to the highest bidder. :?:

[Edited on 8-20-2007 by longlegsinlapaz]

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Dennis, you didn't intentionally turn this thread into a "The way we were" thing, I'm sure. .

I wasn't talking to you, George. I was talking to Judy.
You seem to want to have it out with me. Pick your subject and set the rules.
I hope it's literature and writing.

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I agree with what Judy & Marie-Rose

And I agree with everything you said here, although I'm aware that we agree on nothing. I'm sorry that is our status 'cause I think you have a lot to say that I agree with. It would be nice to bounce ideas, instead of jabs, back and forth.

Osprey - 8-19-2007 at 07:04 PM

Dennis, just let some of us ask questions about what's happening right now in Todos Santos and soon to happen all over the peninsula. It's not personal. What's your take on gringo involvement in areas where they have/will/want to retire in small communities? Nobody living/moving to Asuncion, Abreojos, Agua Verde, Frailes care what's gonna happen with or without their input? I can't believe you all care more about boarder wait info than things that will impact you and yours for generations. Dennis, others -- just let the thread stay alive while those who care get a chance to chime in, give the board some much-needed insight.

greybaby - 8-19-2007 at 07:51 PM

Though we no longer live full-time en Baja, I have to say this topic is one I have thought a lot about. During our wonderful 6 years in the Ensenada area, we never forgot that first and foremost, we were foreigners and it was up to us to blend into the community we had come to. It makes my blood boil when I see and hear attitudes that think just because we come from the US that we know how things should be run in Mexico. We do not! The culture is different. Priorities are different. We came back to Idaho only because we had to for work and though I love the US, I long to be back among the dear people of Baja - truly taking the time for relationships rather than running from one place to another for work. Maybe this is not what you are getting at from the start of this post, but when I see groups of gringos huddled together, not learning the language, griping about the Mexican government, I have to wonder why in the world they have come to Mexico in the first place. Only because it's beautiful and less expensive? I hope not. Now I'm ducking because I'm sure I will be blasted for my opinion. So be it.

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 08:01 PM

Well, George, if you want a Todos Santos board, why dont you start one.

What's my take on Gringo involvement? Jeezo.......where do I start?
I live in a big city, outside actually, that used to be a fishing village. I remember when it was.
How can you say that folks in Asunción etc. care less without their input? I don't know what that means.
Where did your border wait refernce originate? Are you doing what you did in the recent past and mining the depths of the old post graveyard?
So, George, thats where I come from with my opinions. I moved my life here and you moved your life there. What's the friggen difference?
Oh. I know. You're down there, more financially invested and feeling more vulnerable. Well, too bad. I guess you're the one that thought it would never change.
It's gonna change, George. It will do that all over you and everybody else down there just like it changed for me and everybody around here. One of these days, you'll be marching on the state capitol, just like Judy did in Washington, saying,"This isn't right."
I care , George. That's why I speak out. It isn't your private issue.
Even if it was, I'd be right in the middle of it anyway. Did you doubt, for a second that I would?

Capt. George - 8-19-2007 at 08:45 PM

Osprey

I live in a small pueblo, and Deborah and I are very much a part of the community. We will never assimilate into their culture, nor should we, nor do we want to. However we do live here and we do contribute to the community (not necessarily monetarily) although we do, just by living here, which I believe gives us some rights to our future here.

I am content to be accepted in this little pueblo and also have "some" of my views taken seriously. But alas, I am not a Mexican, nor do I want to be , so that's ok by me. Baja will change regardless of our views or concerns, but I think, as residents, we should voice our concerns to our Mexicano neighbors here in Baja. They can keep what they want and toss out the rest...Their choice,

cap'n g

shari - 8-19-2007 at 09:56 PM

this is such a huge topic, one really needs alot of time to comment and we are super busy here partying (and picking up garbage!) at the traditional fiestas...of course the thing is everyone is different...for example one gringo that lived here was very outspoken, kinda arrogant and got into fights so um that really stinks, but others have helped out the community with good ideas, physical labour like planting trees, cleaning up areas, helping with clinics etc...this is obviously good. Our local villagers don't like meddlers but DO like helpers...the business owners LOVE gringos cause they have cash and buy things with it which is very important in the fishing villages as most everything is bought on credit so everyone is strapped for cash to buy stock. I learned long ago not to meddle in the personal lives of townfolk or offer advice on delicate topics like wife beating and alcoholism but try to offer suggetions on better eating habits, exercise and creativity...I love to teach the kids new stuff like games and ecological ideas...the thing is to tread very softly, try to fit in with clothes etc., learn the local customs and use them...like offering plant cuttings, bringing food to people, accompanying ladies to the bathroom, hanging out without talking, accepting invitations, greeting everyone properly and of course learning the language. I have asked what the locals think of outsiders moving here and the vast majority are happy about it( except when the newcomers are idiots in which case it seems the locals have their own way of dealing with this and getting them to um....move on)...it spices up their life a bit and gives them something new to talk about and watch. I just try to be gracious, understanding and accepting of their way of life and respect it. Big topic...not enough time to explain it fully here...

Meddlers AND Mentors

amir - 8-20-2007 at 01:55 AM

We are both... and much more!

.And each person gets involved according to his/her personal preferences and evolution.

Now everybody settle down and have a nice discussion!

-- Amir

oldlady - 8-20-2007 at 05:41 AM

Longlegs,
In answer to your question, I do know of one such activity, at least in La Paz, having to do with Urban Planning. As the story was related to me I got a sense that it was not a raving success because it was "not invented here" although it was worked on here.
And, realizing that this is anecdotal in the extreme, my Spanish teacher at the University was very clear in stating that questioning the Mexican way of doing things was not appreciated. Suggesting change even less so.
I'm not sure what you can accomplish on a medium scale in a place where even the economical and sanitary benefits of a closed sewer sytem or the capital benefits of stringing telephone and electrical wire on the same pole are not appreciated.
Our contractor thought we were nuts wanting vents for the drains...even the old straw above a glass of water demo didn't do the trick....glug, glug.

Cypress - 8-20-2007 at 05:59 AM

If someone wants advice they usually ask for it. Few things are more irritating than someone with an overabundance of unsolicited "free advice".

oldlady - 8-20-2007 at 06:02 AM

Cypress....Well, said.

CaboRon - 8-20-2007 at 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
If someone wants advice they usually ask for it. Few things are more irritating than someone with an overabundance of unsolicited "free advice".

Couldn't have said it better myself ... :tumble:

- CaboRon

oldhippie - 8-20-2007 at 07:28 AM

I think DENNIS is right, the original question was asked in a manner that makes finding an answer difficult.

Whether you're meddling or mentoring depends upon the specific instance.

I think getting involved in environmental issues is mentoring. If development is happening in such a way that it will be harmful to the natural environment, getting involved is an obligation, regardless of where you were born. Especially if you live in the area that is being damaged.

Do you think these people are meddlers or mentors?

Think globally, act locally.

http://tinyurl.com/2fpkbd

[Edited on 8-20-2007 by oldhippie]

Osprey - 8-20-2007 at 07:30 AM

My heart soars like an eagle! So many wonderful ideas and feelings on the matter! I hope the thread goes on but I did want to add a small point here about the language. Those who think it appropriate to offer help in their communities are probably those with the language skills to do so -- if they speak the language they probably have a degree of acceptance in the village, if not, Mexican villagers couldn't get what they wanted to offer. Many of you put forth the idea that most Mexicans will not appreciate being offered advice or help of any kind if it goes against their tradition. And there is a timing thing here -- as example: My gringo neighbor, a retired engineer, has tried and tried to help the town upgrade and change the water delivery system. They don't want his advice or aid. I get the sense that 50 years from now the system in the town will be something like the one he would advise as and when they have the $ and new knowledge to get there on their own -- he was insisting they do it Thursday and that's just not the way it works down here.

I made my query much too broad but most of you cleverly brought me back to center. This fall, when they start the gimongous projects all up and down our beaches I will make it a point to chat up some of my friends at the delegacion but only to let them know if the town wants input from some of the gringos I will help in any way I can. Maybe they'll remember some small things I helped them with in the past and the generousity shown by lots of my gringo neighbors when the town needed help with one project or another that had no chance from governmental funding sources.

oxxo - 8-20-2007 at 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by morgaine7I'm inclined to lurk until I've figured out my role in the community

I agree. I try to keep a very low profile. I have been in my share of "demonstrations" Stateside over the years. But not in Mexico. When it is appropriate and fits my philosophy, I try to mimmick the positive local customs. When in Rome, I do as the Romans do. If I can help out without getting in the way, I do so but keep it low key. I do not offer advice or volunteer my services in local matters. My Mexican friends know who I am and where to find me. If they need something from me, they feel comfortable asking me...when they are ready.

I find that the thing that most impresses my Mexican neighbors and creates the greatest goodwill is an attempt to speak their language. As I stumble and bumble my way through Spanish, they are always very gracious and most appreciative. The other night I was at the San Jose airport waiting for an arrival that had been delayed. So I sat on the wall with the taxi drivers and time share salesmen who were bored passing the time. Even though they all could speak English better than my Spanish, I never pass up an opportunity to practice. They were playing around and joking in Spanish and so I tried to make a few amusing observations in Spanish. Well my comments were met with great laughter. I'm not sure if they were laughing at my comic relief or my Spanish syntax! Anyway they just accepted me as one of the boys. I was fitting in seamlessly. I was relaxed and they were relaxed. Finally the plane arrived and the local boys looked for their pigeons....oh, I mean clients. One of the fellows asked an older American gentlemen in heavily accented in English if he could help. The American raised his voice and said angrily, "Speak to me in English." The boys looked at me as if to say, what's his problem. I was very embarrassed.

Yes, the role of mentoring is foremost here.......but from the other direction. At this point in my life and in this location, I have much to learn from my Mexican paisanos as they help me "detox" from a lifetime of addictions and preconceived ideas north of the border.

JMO

[Edited on 8-20-2007 by oxxo]

Don Alley - 8-20-2007 at 08:09 AM

One kind of involvement is to actually live in a neighborhood and get involved on a small scale. In other words, "charity" may involve helping get eyegalsses for little Pedro, some school supplies for Ernest and Lupita, or medical help for Juan. I does get a little complicated; you want to help, some of the neighbors can use the help, but you want to avoid being an easy "mark" to some of them. Time and friendship helps sort those possible issues out, at least on a small local scale. And when you are involved on a smal scale, with your help directed to friends and neighbors, they have opportunities to respond by helping us too. I think mostly it's worked out well for us and I prefer that most of my charitable help be directed in this way as opposed to organized charities raising money for "categories" of people, or buying air conditioners for a school that won't/can't pay the power bills to run them. (Flame suit on) I am somewhat uncomfortable with high profile gringo charities "helping the poor Mexicans." And I wonder if sometimes some of the Loretanos are uncomfortable too.

Now, as far as political and development issues... I do have experience meddling in such things, enough that I really don't want to do any more. I'm a burn out. But what I see in Loreto is really not that new an experience, is not that unique, and I don't really buy into the opinion that there are huge cultural differences. I see "deja vu all over again" as big development interests move into a small rural community, where local decision makers are local small town residents with little political experience and no experience with such development; they tend to be trusting and are easily swayed by promises of prosperity. These issues are complicated in Loreto by the lack of a strong local media infrastructure, and what I perceive as blatant dishonesty by certain developers far beyond anything I have seen in the valleys and forests of Montana and the coal fields of SE British Columbia. I don't have the answers, or the energy to implement them if I did, but we do speak with our neighbors, and we do attend meetings, where our status as foreign expats has not been a big problem. But I do have to continue working on language skills.

Recently, some of the downsides of massive devlopment (at least in a scale with Loreto's size) are beginning to manifest themselves. Like sewage running down muddy streets amidst unprecedented amounts of traffic. Restrictions on water use. Inflationary prices for goods, services, food and housing. Long lines at the clinics. These will help jump start a real dialogue on what's happening and there will be increased opportunities for individuals of all nationalities to have some small input in order to secure some mitigation and modification of development plans.

Meanwhile, an entirely different issue is Norh Americans communicating with North Americans, asking that potential buyers here think a little harder and dig a little deeper before buying into some of the development plans.

Cypress for Pres & Don Alley for Treasurer

Baja Bernie - 8-20-2007 at 08:29 AM

Over the years I have found that being examples allows the Mexicans to take what they will and reject that which will not work for them without the conflict of direct rejection or confrontation. Seems to me that very few folks reject something when they see that it works and benefits them directly.

I have also experienced many of the things that Don Alley point to and totally agree that one on one giving--[and receiving] may be slow but works best for all sides.

I know I don't always practice that but I sure try.

bajalou - 8-20-2007 at 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Many of you put forth the idea that most Mexicans will not appreciate being offered advice or help of any kind if it goes against their tradition. And there is a timing thing here -- as example: My gringo neighbor, a retired engineer, has tried and tried to help the town upgrade and change the water delivery system. They don't want his advice or aid. I get the sense that 50 years from now the system in the town will be something like the one he would advise as and when they have the $ and new knowledge to get there on their own -- he was insisting they do it Thursday and that's just not the way it works down here.

My observations are that this is often the case. We "Know it all" Americans have the answers as we know how it all must be done. A retired large animal veterinarian friend of mine had lots of suggestions how the ranchers could improve the way the inoculated their stock. Costing some dollars, but entirely more efficient. My Mexican friends told him, thanks, we like to do it our way. This was 5 years ago. The vet still wonders occasionally why they won't do it his much superior way.

jerry - 8-20-2007 at 10:06 AM

old hippie i think its very self serving to say that it your obligation to be a meddler
especially when you get payed for it by specal intrest groups
form what i can gather from here it was voted on by the people of Loreto enoff said

toneart - 8-20-2007 at 10:56 AM

I have experienced it both ways. Twenty five years ago I lived in San Miguel de Allende. There was/is a marvelous art school there, The Instituto, around which the gringo community flourished. The faculty, retirees and students, contributed a lot to the community, greatly improving the local economy.

Fast forward to the present: The infrastructure of the old Colonial village cannot sustain the flood of residents, development and tourists that our initial success brought. Upon revisiting recently, housing prices are wa-a-a-y out of reach for most of us and the beautiful central plaza, The Jardin, experiences grid lock at all hours. The streets are now all one way, but it is impossible to drive or park in town. You can imagine what the carbon monoxide feels like in your eyes and lungs. Well, we taught them "progress", all right!

In Mulege during the flood, a certified diver and instructor offered his services to the local rescue effort and was told that this was a municipal emergency and to basically butt out. He went around them and did his own rescue with boat and by diving into structures.

I know experienced gringos who have been in the construction trades all their lives, offer advice. It is clear that advice could have helped, but as soon as the gringo presence left the scene, they went back to their old ways, making errors that were sometimes comical and sometimes dangerous.

There is a thriving Pitbull fighting culture there. When gringos have expressed disdain and sorrow, they are told, "This is our culture. You may not like the trouble you will face if you try to intervene."

As far as development is concerned, those decisions are made by big money and government officials, at all levels and much monetary motivation, if you will. If you are a resident, in business or with connections, and are invited to sit on boards or committees, you can give your input. You can express your environmental concerns if you know "la onda", the Mexican way. That may serve to make you feel better but it is doubtful that it will have any impact on big development decisions.

Mexico has many ways to teach patience, and if you don't learn it, you won't be happy living in their country. It also has many ways to have you deported in you are seen as a meddler.

There are global organizations where you can be more effective by donating money and being an activiist.

Skeet/Loreto - 8-20-2007 at 11:03 AM

" Do unto others as you would do to yourself""!!

Be kind to all and to those with Lessor Goods, Be Chairtible!

Respect others as you Respect yourself.

Try to stop thinking that your way is the Only Way.

Keep your Word.

Skeet/Loreto

toneart - 8-20-2007 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
" Do unto others as you would do to yourself""!!

Be kind to all and to those with Lessor Goods, Be Chairtible!

Respect others as you Respect yourself.

Try to stop thinking that your way is the Only Way.

Keep your Word.

Skeet/Loreto

Good words of wisdom, Skeet! :yes:

Cypress - 8-20-2007 at 12:12 PM

Baja Bernie

You might want to give that a little more thought. :spingrin:

bajajudy - 8-20-2007 at 12:29 PM

24 hours after my first post on this thread:

I moved down here to live in what, anyone who has ever been here would agree, is a barrio. It is funny when the “what is your view thread” was running, I debated about posting my views…(well, I used to have a view of the sea but then a hardware store moved into the lot in front of me. Now instead of looking longingly at the sea while I wash my dishes, I look at an ugly block wall…cleverly disguised now with lotsa plants). But basically my view is of typical Mexican lower income houses. Some aren’t much more that shacks, some are made of blocks, some of bricks…few have windows, none have screens, only a couple are painted.
So why did I move into this place? Well, mainly because I didn’t want to live in one of JR’s enclaves.
When I look around me, I did a great job. Aside from the hardware store, I still have the same neighbors as I did 10 years ago.
So now I live in their midst. Should I tell them that I think that they should get off their burros and do something about this terrible uncontrolled growth happening in their community…how could I do that? I think that we are the problem because we came here to make something for ourselves, just like all the developers who are here now. Were our motives purer? Did we come here to change the very place we love by trying to run it. It is dilemma that I do not have the answer to.

But for now, I am still lurking and trying to be a good neighbor to my new friends.

Sharksbaja - 8-20-2007 at 01:19 PM

Is it so different in your own (US) neighborhood? Are you pleased by the way your opinion and that of others is considered when Wal-Mart comes to your little town? Could it be your own (English speaking) neighbors don't like your chain-link fence or maybe the way you set up your solar walkway lights? Other powers are at work. You know, like the City Council.
It's clear to me that it is not a matter of acceptance. It's a matter of respect. We have to accept our neighbors at face value here. But when your neighbor decides to log off your trees and stake his own claims on your land w/o one word to you would you consider him a meddler. I have other adjectives for them. You can label anyone, just be concise and accurate before you do.
I simply call them Busybodies. I find it hard to assimilate into JRs enclave mentality.

Cypress for Gubenator, oops........ president! :lol:

Mentoring

oldhippie - 8-20-2007 at 01:53 PM

no_loretobay.jpg - 29kB

Baja Bernie - 8-20-2007 at 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
24 hours after my first post on this thread:

I think that we are the problem because we came here to make something for ourselves, just like all the developers who are here now. Were our motives purer? Did we come here to change the very place we love by trying to run it. It is dilemma that I do not have the answer to.

But for now, I am still lurking and trying to be a good neighbor to my new friends.

Judy, Bravo! You may have caused us to all look into a mirror!

Pescador - 8-20-2007 at 06:32 PM

When a friend of minewas growing up he had two rather interesting and diverse experiences with Mexico. In the first he was approximately 14 and had a chance to spend some of the summer with a Franciscan priest who had moved to the Chiapas area to do some projects in an small mountain village. Because the priest had connections with a pipe company back in the US, they got a very large load of pipe donated and they were able to run the pipe from higher in the mountains and bring water to the village. My son spent the summer living with a local family and they spent the summer working and playing together and developed lasting relationships. They also got pretty involved with local politics since El Pino company was paying almost nothing for pine tar collection. They were invited to the local meetings because it was clearly understood that they had experience with this kind of thing, but they had proven themselves beforehand and were therefore welcomed into the village political scene and made some serious contributions. In fact, in the end, that is why the priest was probably relocated to somewhere else at a later date.
This was such a good experience that when he was working in Texas his boss was involved in a evangelical Church program where they were building a church in a local village. When they found out about his earlier experience they insisted that he go with them to help. Here they lived in an hotel, ate in restaurants, and had only limited interactions with the local people that they were "helping". No one really spoke the language and they were mostly regarded by the locals as benefactors who were building a church and that was about it.
While he made lifelong friends with the first experience, his second trip produced no real friends or anything and today the church has been pretty much abandoned and is not used.

The Gull - 8-20-2007 at 07:13 PM

Don't mentor or meddle.

Exploit, until there is a better pickings elsewhere.

USA will be owned by China by 2012, so move your assets around just ahead of them and you will always be making money, which is the only objective of life. Right?

If someone is offering assistance in language skills, I'll choose English. Gud spakers and riters need aply.

capn.sharky - 8-20-2007 at 08:02 PM

One caution about living in Mexico. Do not get involved politically. That is the fastest way to be sent accross the border that I know of. In Loreto, those that want to get involved do it through the Internado School or on a one to one basis with their Mexican friends. If I am asked a direct question, I answer it as truthfully as I can. I am often asked why Americans don't want Mexicans in our country. I tell them most Americans like the Mexican people but want to control our border due to the terrorist movement. Therefore, those that come legally are most welcome. Remember, in answering these types of questions, you are really being an ambassador of sorts for the U. S. I was once asked to visit the President of the Pueblo to share some ideas. I did not go to his office because when his term is up, there will be another President with different ideas and he might not like something I said. I try to follow the rules and customs of the Mexicans and always show them respect. I never get upset if they are late or don't even show up. They will eventually get the job done most times. I don't tell them how to do their job but will occasionally offer suggestions. Actually, I get along quite well with the Mexicans---its the Americans and Canadians that I seem to have more problems with.

toneart - 8-20-2007 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
Don't mentor or meddle.

Exploit, until there is a better pickings elsewhere.

USA will be owned by China by 2012, so move your assets around just ahead of them and you will always be making money, which is the only objective of life. Right?

If someone is offering assistance in language skills, I'll choose English. Gud spakers and riters need aply.

Uhh..........perhaps you'd better exploit CSL lessons! :rolleyes:

Iflyfish - 8-20-2007 at 11:19 PM

When I started the thread: Cultural Differences Ain't they Interesting some one recommended the book There is a word for it in Mexico. I love that book and believe it has helped me a great deal to understand some of the issues that really perplexed me about the differences between Mexicans and Anglos. It is a must read for anyone wanting to really understand Mexicans and Mexican culture.

There are very real and deep seated differences between Norte and Mexican Cultures. There are many reasons why trying to influence Mexicans is fraught with difficulty. I will not elaborate much more save to recommend that book.

On a personal level I know that in order to lead anyone, you must first "join". We only have one life time and it is short compared to the calendar of culture.

I may have already told the story of the clinic we established that we eventually turned over to Native Mexicans. It involved some very expensive and technical equipment that one night was blown to smithereens by a circuit going out in this very expensive, fancy commercial complex. It turned out that the ground wire for the ENTIRE COMPLEX was never attached! It was deemed to be "an act of god". God must have taken the day off, or maybe have been scared to do anything that might get him in trouble, like hooking that wire up to the post 1/4 inch below it. Ne modo, an act of god.

I later had the experience of talking with another Mexican electrician, well respected apparently, who wired the building that we had attached our motor home to for power. I felt this odd tingling when I touched the motor home. ..... odd... then on applying more pressure I really felt the jolt.....not grounded... the entire house was not grounded. I was never so glad that I was not standing in water!! The electrician said "we just cut that wire off, we don't use it here down south, they use it up north, we don't need it here". This in the face of my reporting near electrocution. I wondered if this guy had maybe touched too many hot wires in his day......not. He just did not want to do something "new" or "different" than what he was trained to do. If he did something different it could lead to trouble. I think that this was his deep down thinking. Houses all used to have two wires....why a third......I don't know and it has always been done that way before....ne modo......why is this gringo creating bad feelings??.... the wires are all in and the electricity works.....trouble maker......what is he trying to do......make trouble??....pinch.....etc.

I don't know that I have answered Osprey's question except to express some real pessimism about how much one can really expect to influence such deeply held cultural ways of being that are involved in Mexican culture. Mexicans are not having a very good time of it here in the states convincing our schools that it aught to be ok for kids to spend a month or so in Mexico over the two week Christmas holiday with their families! They really do value family, the USofA says it does. They are however making great inroads into our cuisine.

Iflyfish

CaboRon - 8-21-2007 at 06:38 AM

Quote:

Thankyou Skeet for these beautiful thoughts.

This thread has seen many thoughtfull and sensitive
comments.

- CaboRon

The Gull - 8-21-2007 at 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Uhh..........perhaps you'd better exploit CSL lessons! :rolleyes:

Toneart,

That is my message - keep your nose pointed in the direction of your own self interest in the world marketplace. If you do that, you won't have time or interest in meddling or mentoring. To do otherwise turns you into chum.

Timing is a critical element and location is about 50% of that equation.

Osprey - 8-21-2007 at 07:35 AM

Gull, sometimes when you help others you also help yourself. What a concept! Your self-serving advice will get all the attention it deserves here, I'm sure. You're in a zone of your own Podna, we intend to keep asking questions of ourselves and others until we find a clearer path to get along and move along by trying to peacefully (and at times charitably) be more than a fixture in a very amiable country.

Leading by example?

Lee - 8-21-2007 at 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
..... we intend to keep asking questions of ourselves and others until we find a clearer path to get along and move along by trying to peacefully (and at times charitably) be more than a fixture in a very amiable country.

Nice. A voice of reason.

My view: there is alot to consider when mentoring/meddling. As many here have mentioned, culture is a large part of the picture and non-verbal communication is an important issue. If I were to offer an analogy, it might be how Mexicans are viewed, generally, in California. (I use California, but the comparison could be TX or AZ too.)

Without citizenship, Mexicans aren't really considered Americans. I don't think ''Americans" think much of opinions expressed by non-Americans.

Speaking Spanish well enough to be understood and comprehending what might be taking place is important. Can you imagine a Mexican showing up and protesting a social/political situation and not knowing English?

I'm very much divided on getting involved politically or in any way that might reflect my Norte culture and judgment.

If there is some way to influence an outcome for the positive, it would be doing so without attachment to the outcome. In other words, if a more efficient or better way is offered up, and the offer isn't taken, then, OK. I don't understand this attitude personally, but I accept that that is how some things happen.

Finally, it is one thing to protest or get involved with politics in Baja as a MX Citizen. It is another to have a FM3, or less, and think you have a right to effect any outcome.

How do gringos begin to educate those throwing trash out their car window or leaving trash piles on a beach? Possibly by example -- picking it up -- and that's about it.

:yes:

rpleger - 8-21-2007 at 01:20 PM

Lee...right on....

Barry A. - 8-21-2007 at 01:31 PM

Lee----------yes, you are right!!! and you say it very well.

RPLedger-----

In answer to your statement attached to all of your posts:

------because "capitol" can be infinitely controlled and managed, but "labor" (reads people) cannot.

The Gull - 8-21-2007 at 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Gull, sometimes when you help others you also help yourself. What a concept! Your self-serving advice will get all the attention it deserves here, I'm sure. You're in a zone of your own Podna, we intend to keep asking questions of ourselves and others until we find a clearer path to get along and move along by trying to peacefully (and at times charitably) be more than a fixture in a very amiable country.

It is self-preserving advice, not as much self serving advice.

Let's examine one "developing" neighborhood in an attempt to find the true and righteous path...

The Donald lends his name to a condo stack project directly across from the TJ sewage treatment plant and a large dumpsite where more than occasional runoff traverses the property (of course adding beauty and serenity). Does The Donald put any money at risk along with his ugly mug on the billboard? NO!

The developer is the usual nefarious "groupo nondescript" that is going to put four 25 story retiring gringo ocean front condo stacks on about 10 acres. He removes the brush, moves some dirt, puts up the sign and one week later he declares over 100% of the first phase sold. In a year, nothing changes on the site except the survey sticks have disappeared (likely used for firewood).

In an attempt to stimulate something, the developer gets The Donald's daughter to various events and on TV/radio spouting that she has bought one of the condos. No doubt there are people who trust in The Donald's daughter judgement, so I might be a little skeptical of the whole story as it has unfolded to date.

Basing on the normal process for construction in Baja, virtually every Nomad who has spent any time in Baja can estimate how long it will take to build the first of four towers even if it has taken a year to do nothing.

I'm sure that your perspective is yours and not mine. I doubt whether foreigners will continue to acquire places to live in Baja when this kind of situation is a growing reality. Then you can ask the question, meddle or mentor.

DianaT - 8-21-2007 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt. George
Osprey

I live in a small pueblo, and Deborah and I are very much a part of the community. We will never assimilate into their culture, nor should we, nor do we want to. However we do live here and we do contribute to the community (not necessarily monetarily) although we do, just by living here, which I believe gives us some rights to our future here.

I am content to be accepted in this little pueblo and also have "some" of my views taken seriously. But alas, I am not a Mexican, nor do I want to be , so that's ok by me. Baja will change regardless of our views or concerns, but I think, as residents, we should voice our concerns to our Mexicano neighbors here in Baja. They can keep what they want and toss out the rest...Their choice,

cap'n g

We really like what you wrote. :yes:

John and Diane

Osprey - 8-21-2007 at 05:33 PM

Gull, I'll see your "The Donald" story and raise you one "Robert A" story -- he just donated $1,000,000 dollars to our town for a hospital. I think that "trumps" whatever weak argument you were trying to make. We were asking questions about small town involvement -- we don't need your worldwide statistical analysis from Le Monde.

The Gull - 8-21-2007 at 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Gull, I'll see your "The Donald" story and raise you one "Robert A" story -- he just donated $1,000,000 dollars to our town for a hospital. I think that "trumps" whatever weak argument you were trying to make. We were asking questions about small town involvement -- we don't need your worldwide statistical analysis from Le Monde.

So, since your mind is made up as to the only possible answer to what you were passing off in the very first post as a question, why bother providing you a response? Isn't that your real point Ubermeister Osprey? You might try to be less obvious when posting a shill for your own views.

You term my story as weak, so I guess you are the king of this string. I will leave you to reign over your small world.

Who is "we" by the way? I often wonder about the royal "we" when it is used.

Osprey - 8-21-2007 at 05:54 PM

Biff, Boff, Bamm, the gull tries to steal the round like any good lightweight. Won't work. The "we" is us, not me. I'm not the king, you're not the court adviser. Kick back Podna, try to add some once in a while.

The Gull - 8-23-2007 at 06:39 AM

:lol:

Bob and Susan - 8-23-2007 at 07:27 AM

for us simpletons again :spingrin:

quote "Kick back Podna"

Once upon a time… two birds,
Podna and Podni, lived happily in the forest.

Their lives are disrupted by Raja
He hears Podni’s beautiful singing.

Raja insists that she be kept at his palace so that he can always enjoy her songs.
While Podna is away gathering food, Podni is captured

After helping a nearby kitten, Podna returns to the nest to discover what has happened to his beloved Podni.

Saddened...he is comforted by the Tree that holds their nest.
The tree offers help by providing Podna with a potion hidden deep in the tree’s trunk.

The potion grants magical powers to whoever drinks it.

Podna consumes the potion and uses his powers to bring
along some unlikely allies on his quest to rescue Podni…
a cat, an ant and a stream.

Meanwhile, at the palace, Podni is too sad to sing for Raja.

Locked up in a cage, she tells him that she can only sing for her friends.

When Podna arrives at the palace, he asks the Raja to free Podni.
Raja rejects this plea and places Podna in a series of dire predicaments

With the help of his allies he overcomes and frees Podni.

Bob and Susan - 8-23-2007 at 07:28 AM

so does "ponda = birdbrain"??? :lol:

Zgringo - 8-23-2007 at 09:36 PM

Being I'm the stranger in a country other than my home country and have been here for 10 years and have been coming here for over 50 years I have learned a few things, but not all.
I don't care how bad your Spanglish is they like to see you trying. Don't get involved in anything government. Thats a quick way to get deported. Don't say anything bad about them as I promise it will get back to them and they can have you deported for slander. Seen it happen.
Be a good example and let them accept what they want and let it be.
Their life is so much different than ours. They struggle day to day just to eat, while we struggle day to day to pay off our homes and save enough to retire. Most of them, retirement only comes with death.
There like little children. They like parties, fireworks and going to the playa.
I've been trying to be a axample by removing my shade trees and replacing them with fruit trees and planting a garden. Now I see my Mexican friends asking how to plant a garden as they like the things coming from my garden. I grow much more than I need. My fruit trees are small but they still see a small amount of fruit and know someday will produce plenty. Offer rides to the store and to get drinking water.
As a treet once in awhile I'll take them a chocolet banana cream pie and they think there in heaven.
Just be a good friend and don't be nosie. If they accept you and tell you great but mind your own business and don't try and reinvent the wheel. There wheel is shaped different than ours.

gnukid - 8-23-2007 at 10:35 PM

Cool. San Felipe, that's near Los Angeles, right?

Iflyfish - 8-23-2007 at 10:48 PM

"don't try and reinvent the wheel. There wheel is shaped different than ours."

I like that!

Iflyfish

And...

Dave - 8-23-2007 at 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zgringo

There like little children. They like parties, fireworks and going to the playa.

As a treet once in awhile I'll take them a chocolet banana cream pie and they think there in heaven.

There's a certain secret spot on their bellies. If you scratch it one of their little feet will do a special dance. It's soooo cute. :rolleyes:

Zgringo - 8-23-2007 at 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Cool. San Felipe, that's near Los Angeles, right?

Not really.... Novasabrisk is the next town to the east

Sharksbaja - 8-24-2007 at 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

There's a certain secret spot on their bellies. If you scratch it one of their little feet will do a special dance. It's soooo cute. :rolleyes:

Yes and I've seen them crawl on their bellies like reptiles.
Geico? :biggrin:

DENNIS - 8-24-2007 at 07:52 AM

Didn't Zsa Zsa Gabor just post something here? Where did it go?

flyfishinPam - 8-24-2007 at 08:35 AM

Zgringo you are way outta line!

I expect to see the recipe for your chocolate banana cream pie in the recipes fourm!!!

rhintransit - 8-24-2007 at 09:33 AM

meddlers or mentors? when the economic impact is so great...nothing like threads on skilled laborors squatting in Loreto barrios with in town casas at 410k (not picking on any advertiser in specific, there are enough expensive places around, this just so recent)...the influence of mentors is greatly diluted. of course there is the economic mentoring, why complain about Mama Espinoza's charging so much for tacos now?

Paula - 8-24-2007 at 12:09 PM

Excellent points made, rh-- I am continually more puzzled by American logic than by the logic of people from countries with a simpler lifestyle.

DENNIS - 8-24-2007 at 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Excellent points made, rh-- I am continually more puzzled by American logic than by the logic of people from countries with a simpler lifestyle.

It's a simple matter of arrogant ignorance. If people moving to a different culture would forget how important they are and do a basic study on the new area, they would be better received, by their new neighbors as well as themselves.
I think we are ALL guilty of that arrogance. How can we bring our wealth, albeit hard earned and understated, into a neighborhood with lesser rewards and, because we smile and donate, expect to be accepted as equal? That barrier is seldom crossed and it probably never will be until we have everything in common. Those who think they have achieved that status are delusional. Hopeful but, delusional.

[Edited on 8-24-2007 by DENNIS]

comitan - 8-24-2007 at 01:30 PM

Dennis

Well said.

Interesting

Dave - 8-24-2007 at 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Excellent points made, rh-- I am continually more puzzled by American logic than by the logic of people from countries with a simpler lifestyle.

Logical/illogical thought is not linked to nationality.

Critical thinking is a learned process.

Don Alley - 8-24-2007 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
...How can we bring our wealth, albeit hard earned and understated, into a neighborhood with lesser rewards and, because we smile and donate, expect to be accepted as equal? That barrier is seldom crossed and it probably never will be until we have everything in common. Those who think they have achieved that status are delusional. Hopeful but, delusional.

[Edited on 8-24-2007 by DENNIS]

I don't really have any expectations. Nor do I give or help expecting or demanding something in return. I think some expats and visitors are too self-conscious about their status.

However, I do come from a country founded on certain principals, including equality regardless of economic status. So I am reluctant to abandon those supposedly universal and God-given principals, although I see increasing evidence that the only social divisions that really matter in this age are the Super Rich and Powerful, and the rest of us.

Paula - 8-24-2007 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula
Excellent points made, rh-- I am continually more puzzled by American logic than by the logic of people from countries with a simpler lifestyle.

Logical/illogical thought is not linked to nationality.

Critical thinking is a learned process.

Dave, this was a post that didn't well express my sentiment, and you are absolutely right. My thoughts were more about people who strive constantly for things of very arbitrary and materialistic worth, and people who understnd the value of a life lived with less concern for excess and more for a joyful life with community and caring and respect for things less superficial. Country of origin is not the criteria here, but a certain approach to life is. Hmmmm, this is clear as mud, isn't it?

DENNIS - 8-24-2007 at 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula

Dave, this was a post that didn't well express my sentiment, and you are absolutely right. My thoughts were more about people who strive constantly for things of very arbitrary and materialistic worth, and people who understnd the value of a life lived with less concern for excess and more for a joyful life with community and caring and respect for things less superficial. Country of origin is not the criteria here, but a certain approach to life is. Hmmmm, this is clear as mud, isn't it?

Well, what do you want to be, a capitolist or a Buddhist? I doubt that both are available.
One or the other, take your pick.

Paula - 8-24-2007 at 09:28 PM

Dennis, there are many things a person could be other than a capitalist or a Buddhist. So I don't feel I need to make this choice.

JESSE - 8-24-2007 at 10:43 PM

I have seen both sides of the coin, living here in Mexico with a decent but low paying job and not having much to worry, to a complex high stress job with really good pay by international standars. The reality is that when i had the low paying job, i wanted to to get a high paying job regardless of the cost to the quality of my life. And after i managed to get the high paying job (and all the attached responsabilities and stresses) i dreamed about living a simple life.

My conclusion. Both lives are flawed for different reasons, and any Mexican or American who claims their life is better, would be wrong.

I have a good friend that works for 8 months a year, and spends the rest not doing absolutely anything besides thinking what flavor of icecream he is going to eat that night. For a long time i tought he was lazy, or crazy, but you know what, this guy is into something smart.

Jesse

Baja Bernie - 8-25-2007 at 02:30 AM

You got it! Wondered when you would chime in.

Osprey - 8-25-2007 at 08:03 AM

Zgringo, you said "There (sic) like little children" and I would like you to clarify that for us. I don't know where you're from, don't know much about San Filipe but I can't imagine a Mexican village peopled by tall children. In my little village we have educators, administrators, doctors, town managers many of whom have serious jobs with serious grownup responsibilities. Our fishermen and bait guys have hard, dangerous jobs that they take very seriously -- I would show them great disrespect if I thought of them as children, treated them as such. Your arrogance taints your effort to spread good will. How about the Mexican Nomads? Call them children and see what happens.

Zgringo - 8-25-2007 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Zgringo, you said "There (sic) like little children" and I would like you to clarify that for us. I don't know where you're from, don't know much about San Filipe but I can't imagine a Mexican village peopled by tall children. In my little village we have educators, administrators, doctors, town managers many of whom have serious jobs with serious grownup responsibilities. Our fishermen and bait guys have hard, dangerous jobs that they take very seriously -- I would show them great disrespect if I thought of them as children, treated them as such. Your arrogance taints your effort to spread good will. How about the Mexican Nomads? Call them children and see what happens.

Wow... You must live in a real village. The people with serious jobs here do things like...There angry at a American developer who employes 1,500 locals cause he won't build a collage for the kids here... so 2 weeks before the 37th annual San Felipe 250 SCORE race cancel the race depriving the community of approx. 20 (twenty) million dollars, and because the serious grownups with the power seeing a large loss of money raised the prices for the "Spring Breakers" causing a large bunch of them to go elsewhere. Now were left with our fishermen and Master Baiters who do indeed have a dangerious job and under paid I must say.
If I'm not mistaken in the Bible it tells us to be as "Little Children" meaning, pure, forgiving and playful. Now if thats being disrespectful then you have a problem. When I said that I ment adults should be more like them, and if you don't think fireworks, partys and the playa are very much part of there life then your in the wrong place.
Our crime rate has jumped because of lack of money for those that have to work but still have to survive, created by the serious adults.
I don't know were you live, but take away a very large amount of the money to provide for the will being and welfare of these people who have very limited things and you've created a much larger problem.

[Edited on 8-25-2007 by Zgringo]

Osprey - 8-25-2007 at 01:58 PM

I live in a little village which plays host to no races or special events, has no real outside source of revenue. Go throw your bible at those mean-spirited miscreants downtown who ruined things for the town. Then go home, water your fruit trees and chill. You need a hug more then your neighbors IMHO. Mexico is a big, complicated country with modern people and modern problems. My neighbors work hard and play hard and I'll be damned if I'll dishonor them by taking advice from those who think of them as children.

Cypress - 8-25-2007 at 02:07 PM

When you start looking down your nose at your neighbors it's time to move.

Home run, Jesse

Lee - 8-25-2007 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
My conclusion. Both lives are flawed for different reasons, and any Mexican or American who claims their life is better, would be wrong.

...... spends the rest not doing absolutely anything besides thinking what flavor of icecream he is going to eat that night. For a long time i tought he was lazy, or crazy, but you know what, this guy is into something smart.

Yeah tell us more about your friend. What's he doing for those 8 months?

:cool:

toneart - 8-25-2007 at 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Zgringo
As a treet once in awhile I'll take them a chocolet banana cream pie and they think there in heaven.

The new Baja Guru?

--Larry

Perhaps a resurrected Soupy Sales could show him how to play with his Chocolate banana cream pie. It would really be a long distance commute though, from Soupy's heaven and the "little childrens'" heaven.

Here......let me try>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPLAT.

comitan - 8-25-2007 at 04:34 PM

The name says it all.

meddlers AND mentors.

BCSTech - 8-28-2007 at 08:44 PM

In Mexico or the US, meddlers will continue to meddle, and mentors will continue to...

I don't see what's so complicated about this... Forget the politics or the "I'm an outsider" stuff. There are so many small and meaningful ways ANYONE can have a positive impact directly or indirectly in any neighborhood or community, Mexican or US, if they really wanted:

- One guy here donated computers to the high school.

- One bought uniforms, gloves and bats for the baseball team.

- Others hold fund raisers to support a project that goes out to the farm workers' families in the Agricolas to provide toys, medicine, soap, toothpaste, books and education to farm kids who can't go to school. These might be some of the poorest people you will ever meet.

- Others donate to the church's Christmas Toy drive.

- Others help raise money by a fiesta organized to paint and decorate the public trash cans.

- Others pay for free spay and neuter clinics for the dogs and cats of poor families.

- Others work to rebuild the library and city pool.

- Others sponsor free English lessons.

- And many employ others to do their work.

Do you have a work skill or some little something you can share or teach others? Then find a way to do it. Even better if you're paying them while they're learning. Can you employ someone? The new skills will help not only them directly but their families and future generations as well.

And don't think the Mexicans don't know who you are or where you live. Most likely they do, and they know the ones who wear the White Hats.

So what if you don't receive one spit of recognition from the ones who will benefit? Who are you doing this for? Doesn't this help YOUR community nonetheless? You can pin on your own feel-good Gold Star, and be satisfied you're "paying it forward."

The benefits will live on long after any of us on these Forums will...

(Sorry, I think I just twisted my ankle getting down off my horse...)

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by BCSTech]

Nailed it

Lee - 8-28-2007 at 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BCSTech
So what if you don't receive one spit of recognition from the ones who will benefit? Who are you doing this for? Doesn't this help YOUR community nonetheless? You can pin on your own feel-good Gold Star, and be satisfied you're "paying it forward."

The benefits will live on long after any of us on these Forums will...

(Sorry, I think I just twisted my ankle getting down off my horse...)

Good, Alan. This is it.

:light:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 09:06 PM

That was so well said. It just serves to illustrate, we can't be too careful when dismounting.

Just kiddin', BCS. What you said was good. Really good. If we need outside recognition for the things we do for others, perhaps our motives need clarification. We have to appreciate ourselves, for ourselves. As Bhudda would say, "Right on....You did good."