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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Gringos in Mexican towns - Meddlers or mentors
Let's try this again. Surely more than a half dozen gringos or others on this board have some thoughts about how gringos should/would/could interact
with locals in developing Mexican communities in Baja (aren't they all). Subject died on a Loreto thread like it was infected or totally unimportant.
Nobody lives down here? Nobody has homes down here? Nobody plans to retire down here? Hellllllloooo!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Why don't you ask a specific question?
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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I am here, seahawk
I have found that generally the people of this area are not politically motivated. There has been very little resistance from the people of La Playa
to the marina...should there have been?....I guess not....it is their village.
As for my participating in any kind of protest, I might would have if there had been one in the village. I would feel more comfortable joining one if
I already had my Mexican citizenship.
A friend of mine who is very involved with saving the estuary was here for dinner a few weeks back and I told her, "You know I was very active in the
late 60's, early 70's. I was in front of St Pats in NYC for the huge candlelight protest and I was in Washington for the Moratorium but I really
never felt like anything I did actually did any good so I just gave up."
What does that make me? A realist, I think
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Marie-Rose
Senior Nomad
Posts: 894
Registered: 10-2-2003
Location: Victoria, B.C. and Todos Santos
Member Is Offline
Mood: Worried...
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We haven't been in TS for extended periods as yet, (only several months at a time) but
I do find it an intersting problem.
Living in our little bario I feel like I want to help, but need to give my head a shake and really question my intentions. I worry that the influx
of us foreigners is not always making things easier... so am tempted to get involved in projects to "improve" their life!!! Then I need to
think..."just because I think it is an improvement, do they"?
In TS there was great debate about the involvement of gringo's and the survival of the local bomberos. Many thought the locals would have stepped up
to the plate, and taken care of business, had the gringo's "thrown money" at the problem. 
Remember, when in Mexico, yes may be no and no may be
maybe!
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajajudy
was in front of St Pats in NYC for the huge candlelight protest and I was in Washington for the Moratorium but I really never felt like anything I
did actually did any good so I just gave up."
What does that make me? A realist, I think |
It makes you a defeatist if you think your efforts weren't understood. I was in the movement as well and our efforts did make a difference. Yours,
Judy, more than others. You spoke out at your own peril and your voice was heard. We gave the Nixon government a reason to stop our war.
Unlike today, the sentiment was voiced by patriots like you.
Today, the patriots are afraid to come forward because it isn't a popular movement.
Too bad for us. The people can stop the crap of today but, we havn't the organization to do it.
Hang in there, Judy. We will do our best.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Dennis, you didn't intentionally turn this thread into a "The way we were" thing, I'm sure. Now, let's get back to basics. How do Nomads feel about
how gringos should act or (not act) in the villages of Baja California as they buy lots, build houses, become parts of the community. I'll try til
somebody tells me the board members don't care about that kind of stuff and then I'll find another board.
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bajajudy
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6886
Registered: 10-4-2004
Location: San Jose del Cabo,BCS
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Hold on Osprey
Dennis was commenting on what I said, which, of course, had nothing to do with what you want to talk about. It was supposed to be an explanation for
why I will probably not be involved in any protest here.
If no one else wants to discuss it...so be it. 
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longlegsinlapaz
Super Nomad
Posts: 1685
Registered: 11-18-2005
Location: La Paz
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Hey Jorge, I live here....have a home here....already retired down here!
I agree with what Judy & Marie-Rose said...I'll do battle for a cause I believe in & I think is in the best interest of the majority without
expectation of personal gain....i.e., speak up for the underdog; help the downtrodden. HOWEVER, Marie-Rose nailed what's always been an issue for me
as well....we come from such diverse cultures & USA/Mexican laws & governmental agencies are so different in how they approach things. I
believe we have more & demand more for ourselves & our families, and we have rights that aren't inherent in this culture. We look at things
differently, we do things differently (insure our bodies, homes & cars, save for a "rainy day", college for our kids, our retirement, etc.). We
look beyond today! I think the majority of the local population is simply happier with what they have, they're less materialistic & probably less
trusting of promises made by anyone. Most don't have the financial resources that we have (however meager those resources might seem to us, we're
virtually ALL RICH in their eyes). I believe we both want what's best for ourselves & our families, but I also doubt that the top 25
items/laws/community improvements on Mexicano lists & gringo lists of "How or what would improve life for my family/my community/my
country"....well, I think they'd be very diverse specifics on each of our lists.
I don't feel that the general population is given much opportunity to volunteer their input in a manner where anyone in authority will honestly be
listening. The government decides what's best for them, like it or not. And it typically follows the all-mighty-dinero....little people are
bulldozed right out of the way of "progress"!
If asked for my opinion or input, I'm forthcoming, but I sincerely feel that our wants/needs/expectations are so culturally different, that Mexicanos
should have the final say in what's best for themselves & their community. We are guests here & as such, should not impose our values &
cultural differences on our hosts.
I'd like to see is multi-national task forces or research groups, with qualified international input....with locals listening to why
we feel something could improve their lives, and locals making an educated bottom-line decision. Does anyone know if any qualified experts ever
volunteer to work with state or federal governmental agencies to give viable experience & input on individual & unique area solutions....water
conservation & acquisition, recycling, basura disposal, environmentally friendly issues, including the live resources in the oceans surrounding
Baja, etc., etc.? People volunteering for the RIGHT reasons, not "on the take consultants" who sell their opinions to the highest bidder.
[Edited on 8-20-2007 by longlegsinlapaz]
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Osprey
Dennis, you didn't intentionally turn this thread into a "The way we were" thing, I'm sure. . |
I wasn't talking to you, George. I was talking to Judy.
You seem to want to have it out with me. Pick your subject and set the rules.
I hope it's literature and writing.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I agree with what Judy & Marie-Rose |
And I agree with everything you said here, although I'm aware that we agree on nothing. I'm sorry that is our status 'cause I think you have a lot
to say that I agree with. It would be nice to bounce ideas, instead of jabs, back and forth.
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Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
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Dennis, just let some of us ask questions about what's happening right now in Todos Santos and soon to happen all over the peninsula. It's not
personal. What's your take on gringo involvement in areas where they have/will/want to retire in small communities? Nobody living/moving to
Asuncion, Abreojos, Agua Verde, Frailes care what's gonna happen with or without their input? I can't believe you all care more about boarder wait
info than things that will impact you and yours for generations. Dennis, others -- just let the thread stay alive while those who care get a chance
to chime in, give the board some much-needed insight.
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greybaby
Nomad
Posts: 182
Registered: 10-8-2004
Location: Idaho - formerly Cantu
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Mood: Missing Baja
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Though we no longer live full-time en Baja, I have to say this topic is one I have thought a lot about. During our wonderful 6 years in the Ensenada
area, we never forgot that first and foremost, we were foreigners and it was up to us to blend into the community we had come to. It makes my blood
boil when I see and hear attitudes that think just because we come from the US that we know how things should be run in Mexico. We do not! The
culture is different. Priorities are different. We came back to Idaho only because we had to for work and though I love the US, I long to be back
among the dear people of Baja - truly taking the time for relationships rather than running from one place to another for work. Maybe this is not
what you are getting at from the start of this post, but when I see groups of gringos huddled together, not learning the language, griping about the
Mexican government, I have to wonder why in the world they have come to Mexico in the first place. Only because it's beautiful and less expensive? I
hope not. Now I'm ducking because I'm sure I will be blasted for my opinion. So be it.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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Well, George, if you want a Todos Santos board, why dont you start one.
What's my take on Gringo involvement? Jeezo.......where do I start?
I live in a big city, outside actually, that used to be a fishing village. I remember when it was.
How can you say that folks in Asunción etc. care less without their input? I don't know what that means.
Where did your border wait refernce originate? Are you doing what you did in the recent past and mining the depths of the old post graveyard?
So, George, thats where I come from with my opinions. I moved my life here and you moved your life there. What's the friggen difference?
Oh. I know. You're down there, more financially invested and feeling more vulnerable. Well, too bad. I guess you're the one that thought it
would never change.
It's gonna change, George. It will do that all over you and everybody else down there just like it changed for me and everybody around here. One of
these days, you'll be marching on the state capitol, just like Judy did in Washington, saying,"This isn't right."
I care , George. That's why I speak out. It isn't your private issue.
Even if it was, I'd be right in the middle of it anyway. Did you doubt, for a second that I would?
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Capt. George
Super Nomad
Posts: 2129
Registered: 8-21-2003
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Osprey
I live in a small pueblo, and Deborah and I are very much a part of the community. We will never assimilate into their culture, nor should we, nor do
we want to. However we do live here and we do contribute to the community (not necessarily monetarily) although we do, just by living here, which I
believe gives us some rights to our future here.
I am content to be accepted in this little pueblo and also have "some" of my views taken seriously. But alas, I am not a Mexican, nor do I want to be
, so that's ok by me. Baja will change regardless of our views or concerns, but I think, as residents, we should voice our concerns to our Mexicano
neighbors here in Baja. They can keep what they want and toss out the rest...Their choice,
cap'n g
\"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men\" Plato
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shari
Select Nomad
Posts: 13048
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: bahia asuncion, baja sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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this is such a huge topic, one really needs alot of time to comment and we are super busy here partying (and picking up garbage!) at the traditional
fiestas...of course the thing is everyone is different...for example one gringo that lived here was very outspoken, kinda arrogant and got into fights
so um that really stinks, but others have helped out the community with good ideas, physical labour like planting trees, cleaning up areas, helping
with clinics etc...this is obviously good. Our local villagers don't like meddlers but DO like helpers...the business owners LOVE gringos cause they
have cash and buy things with it which is very important in the fishing villages as most everything is bought on credit so everyone is strapped for
cash to buy stock. I learned long ago not to meddle in the personal lives of townfolk or offer advice on delicate topics like wife beating and
alcoholism but try to offer suggetions on better eating habits, exercise and creativity...I love to teach the kids new stuff like games and ecological
ideas...the thing is to tread very softly, try to fit in with clothes etc., learn the local customs and use them...like offering plant cuttings,
bringing food to people, accompanying ladies to the bathroom, hanging out without talking, accepting invitations, greeting everyone properly and of
course learning the language. I have asked what the locals think of outsiders moving here and the vast majority are happy about it( except when the
newcomers are idiots in which case it seems the locals have their own way of dealing with this and getting them to um....move on)...it spices up their
life a bit and gives them something new to talk about and watch. I just try to be gracious, understanding and accepting of their way of life and
respect it. Big topic...not enough time to explain it fully here...
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amir
Senior Nomad
Posts: 559
Registered: 5-4-2007
Location: Todos Santos, BCS
Member Is Offline
Mood: chiropractic
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Meddlers AND Mentors
We are both... and much more!
.And each person gets involved according to his/her personal preferences and evolution.
Now everybody settle down and have a nice discussion!
-- Amir
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oldlady
Banned
Posts: 1714
Registered: 10-31-2005
Location: BCS
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Longlegs,
In answer to your question, I do know of one such activity, at least in La Paz, having to do with Urban Planning. As the story was related to me I
got a sense that it was not a raving success because it was "not invented here" although it was worked on here.
And, realizing that this is anecdotal in the extreme, my Spanish teacher at the University was very clear in stating that questioning the Mexican way
of doing things was not appreciated. Suggesting change even less so.
I'm not sure what you can accomplish on a medium scale in a place where even the economical and sanitary benefits of a closed sewer sytem or the
capital benefits of stringing telephone and electrical wire on the same pole are not appreciated.
Our contractor thought we were nuts wanting vents for the drains...even the old straw above a glass of water demo didn't do the trick....glug, glug.
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Cypress
Elite Nomad
Posts: 7641
Registered: 3-12-2006
Location: on the bayou
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Mood: undecided
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If someone wants advice they usually ask for it. Few things are more irritating than someone with an overabundance of unsolicited "free advice". 
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oldlady
Banned
Posts: 1714
Registered: 10-31-2005
Location: BCS
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Cypress....Well, said.
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3401
Registered: 3-24-2007
Location: The Valley of the Moon
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Mood: Peacefull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Cypress
If someone wants advice they usually ask for it. Few things are more irritating than someone with an overabundance of unsolicited "free advice".
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Couldn't have said it better myself ...
- CaboRon
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