BajaNomad - Now THERE'S Irony !

Now THERE'S Irony !

MrBillM - 8-20-2007 at 12:05 PM

Today's L.A. Times editorial regarding the ill-advised push towards Corn-Based Ethanol energy production discussed the negative effect on World food prices and included this line.........."It also hurts Mexico which depends on U.S. corn for its Tortilla supply".

That is funny.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 01:15 PM

It's all a matter of priorities, MrBill. What's most important? Weaning ourselves of the need for Arab oil or, a good taco?

Cypress - 8-20-2007 at 01:33 PM

Ethanol comes from corn.

Corn doesn't grow on trees.

Corn has to be planted. duh? Tractors need fuel to disc, plant etc. duh. Where does the fertilizer come from? Where do the herbicides, the insecticides come from? How much water and energy does it take to convert corn into fuel?

The hidden costs are well hidden. :yes:

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 01:59 PM

Cypress.........

If by all that you mean that ethanol will cost more than Arab based gas, I say So What. We have to free ourselves from the Middle East. Can anybody sanely argue that point?

Cypress - 8-20-2007 at 02:11 PM

DENNIS. Good point! :yes:

bajalou - 8-20-2007 at 03:39 PM

Some parts of the world - Brazil for one are gearing up the sugar cane production as they say it's a better product to make the ethanol from.

JEEZ !

MrBillM - 8-20-2007 at 04:12 PM

I'm well used to threads going awry and I have, often as not, been a contributor.

The IRONY I was pointing out was the fact that Mexico has to have U.S. Corn for their Tortillas. I thought that really funny.

The Ethanol question is another one entirely. Ethanol as a solid supply of alternative fuel is a JOKE. The targeted (and legislated) 2022 goal of 36 Billion gallons would alone require 96 million acres for production. The current corn production acreage (mostly for food) is 80 million acres. The only remaining vacant acreage for production available is 37 million acres in the Federal Conservation Reserve Program. To have any realistic chance of meeting the legislated goal would mean cultivating corn in place of other food crops. Rising fuel costs and rising corn prices have already accounted for an increase of eight percent in retail food prices.

All vehicles produced in Brazil are now Dual-Fuel vehicles and the Ethanol (called alcohol there) is available at virtually EVERY gas station at one-third the price of gasoline. Pure Ethanol usage is a problem because of its lower combustion factor and poor performance in colder weather. That's the reason we're only promoting E-85 in the U.S.

Brazil is rapidly cutting down their rain forest to increase Sugar production. Imagine the howls from the Environmentalists IF the U.S. were to encourage exponential increases in Brazilian production by working out an import deal for Ethanol. I can hardly wait for THAT debate.

Drill in the Arctic National Reserve, increase the amount of Clean Coal power usage and put Nuclear Power generation on the Fast-Track.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

The IRONY I was pointing out was the fact that Mexico has to have U.S. Corn for their Tortillas. I thought that really funny.

Oh, yeah........I get it. I suppose the impact of irony was dulled since I heard the same thing twenty years ago. I have no idea how long it's been going on but, it isn't new.
You're right though. It is ironic. Since irony is the world in which we live, we may soon see that all Big Macs are made in Mexico.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
I don't understand why we just don't separate hydrogen from water and use that for fuel.

I don't think water burns.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 05:17 PM

Sorry, Grover..........Couldn't pass it up.

David K - 8-20-2007 at 05:44 PM

Plenty of oil right here in the USA... Ask (your gov't. rep) why we can't drill for our own oil and be free of the Middle East... until gas and diesel motors can be replaced by hydrogen

Grover has the future in mind, as water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen... Just get that liquid converted to those two gasses (simply) and you got unlimited energy! Cold fussion is another hope for unlimited energy... someday!

TWENTY Years ? How time flies.

MrBillM - 8-20-2007 at 05:46 PM

Not having run across that statistic twenty years ago as Dennis did, I was curious.

A U.S. government report on NAFTA dated 2002 (Five years ago for the math impaired), noted that U.S. Corn imports to Mexico had doubled since 1994, substantially for farming uses, but also increasingly for Human consumption, resulting in Mexican sources claiming that One out of Three (that's 33 1/3 % for the math impaired) Mexican Tortillas were being made from imported corn.

Since the figure Five years ago was One-Third and import figures were half that in 1994, it seems unlikely that the figure was very substantial 20 years ago (1987 ?).

Such is Irony.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 06:28 PM

Well, it seems like twenty years ago.
Anyway, it's a known indisputable fact that heat is the main cause of hyperbole.

The Gull - 8-20-2007 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
I don't understand why we just don't separate hydrogen from water and use that for fuel.

I don't think water burns.

Salt water was recently shown to burn.

DENNIS - 8-20-2007 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Salt water was recently shown to burn.

That had to be at Rosarito Beach.

Don't expect ethanol

BMG - 8-20-2007 at 08:45 PM

to have much impact on oil imports into the U.S. It takes almost 1 gal of fuel to produce 1.1 gal of ethanol from corn. Sugar cane has a much better ratio.

Personally, I'm going to do my share by immediately switching to flour tortillas!

willworkasfood.jpg - 25kB

toneart - 8-20-2007 at 09:02 PM

There are many alternative fuel sources that aren't being considered. It doesn't make me feel any better, any smarter or any smugger to know that the anti-environmentalists are in the same boat as we who care. They are dead weight in the survivors' boat into the future.

It will take thinkers far smarter than the mouth-breathers who are presently running the show to irony the wrinkles out.

Regarding irony as humor, I don't find it funny when it comes at the expense of Mexicans or any people. :mad:

CaboRon - 8-21-2007 at 07:00 AM

I refuse to switch to flour tortillas! :lol:

- CaboRon

The Cost of Humor ?

MrBillM - 8-21-2007 at 08:34 AM

I would be interested to see a statistical economic evaluation assessing the cost effects of humor (Irony or Otherwise) to Anyone, especially in this case.

What am I missing that other "more sensitive" champions of humanity have discovered ?

toneart - 8-21-2007 at 03:28 PM

OK, MrBill, I concede that the irony you sight is funny, but not the situation. And, I went around a corner by thinking, "Oh s**t! Mexico dependent on the U.S. for corn?...What are they going to do? I realize that you didn't intend for anyone to go around that corner, or at least, you were confined to the irony. I get it.

It seems most of us who have responded, including yourself, agree that ethanol is a bad idea for solving our fuel problems. They appear to be going full bore ahead with the program. Follow the money.

I would think that the advent of Mexico being dependent on the U.S. for much of its corn was agreed upon in a NAFTA pact.
(Here, I am merely conjecturing). Don't you think Mexico can turn around their production of corn and be self-sufficient if big ol' Uncle Sam gives them permission?

Jeez, if we get a Jones on for corn, maybe it could replace drugs as the next black market commodity from Mexico. :wow:

Now that's irony! :cool:

Minnow - 8-21-2007 at 04:10 PM

Corn grown in Mexico is almost exclusively Silage, that is, corn for cattle consumption. Not American sweet corn. Ever check where Mazteca is made? Bill, thats the stuff they make the tortillas from. Not that I would expect you to know.

A grass, not the one you are thinking of, has been developed that is better than sugar cane by, I believe by 3 to1, for making Ethanol. That might get us down the road. So to speak.

One think for sure is that many forces are going to have to come together to straighten out this mess. :lol:

[Edited on 21-8-2007 by Minnow]

DENNIS - 8-21-2007 at 04:16 PM

Is there anybody left in Mexico to produce all this good stuff? Pretty soon, we'll be fighting to keep them, speaking of irony.

[Edited on 8-21-2007 by DENNIS]

Minnow - 8-21-2007 at 04:43 PM

We Already are fighting to keep. "THEM" in the US. :lol:

Gull mentioned the point that the US would be Peoples Republic of the US by 2012. I give it to 2020. The sole reason is the US is unable to compete with the cheap labor that Asia has. Mexico is our only source of "cheap" labor. Without a labor force to exploit, we are doomed. The demand for cheap goods is too great and will kill the US.

Debra - 8-21-2007 at 05:09 PM

Except, the US gets most of it's oil from Mexico, second is Canada (not the Middle East)

It is going to run out, and soon........we need to think ahead.

mtgoat666 - 8-21-2007 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra
Except, the US gets most of it's oil from Mexico, second is Canada (not the Middle East)

It is going to run out, and soon........we need to think ahead.

Soln for oil problem is easy. Increase the CAFE stds. Tax the wasteful SUV/PU driver. Don't ruin our wilderness by drilling for a few last drops of oil until you cut back the US waste of fuel on oversized vehicles.
Encourage people to live near work. Why do people ccommute >1 hr per day? Do they like devoting their "free" time to sitting in their oversized car/suv?

Debra - 8-21-2007 at 05:29 PM

Hum?

Well, I have to admit I'm guilty of driving an SUV, thing is that until I needed it for Baja driving (3yrs. ago) I had my 29mpg car for 15yrs. I did sell that and now have a Honda for "home" upwards of 40 mpg......what really amazes me is that I see (mostly in Ca) 7 out of 10 cars are big gas guazzing tanks, that have street tires on them, can't quite firgure out what the purpose of that might be.

Wrong

Dave - 8-21-2007 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra
Except, the US gets most of it's oil from Mexico, second is Canada (not the Middle East)

#1-Canada
#2-Saudi Arabia
#3-Mexico

And that's U.S. imports not majority of production. While U.S. imports make up about 60% of consumption, the percentage majority is still domestic.

And like corn, Mexico will soon become a net oil importer.

toneart - 8-21-2007 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
Corn grown in Mexico is almost exclusively Silage, that is, corn for cattle consumption. Not American sweet corn. Ever check where Mazteca is made? Bill, thats the stuff they make the tortillas from. Not that I would expect you to know.

A grass, not the one you are thinking of, has been developed that is better than sugar cane by, I believe by 3 to1, for making Ethanol. That might get us down the road. So to speak.

One think for sure is that many forces are going to have to come together to straighten out this mess. :lol:

[Edited on 21-8-2007 by Minnow]

Minnow,

Don't you think that Mexico could grow enough sweet corn if they need to? Looks like the need is already upon them.

Gas from Grass

MrBillM - 8-21-2007 at 08:54 PM

The many shortcomings of "Cellulosic" Ethanol, made from various materials such as Switchgrass and other agricultural or forest waste materials, is pointed out in the referenced Times Editorial.

The BIG problem noted with Cellulosic Ethanol is "that it doesn't actually exist-no one has yet figured out how to make it economically in commercial quantities".

BTW, BaitFish, WHY would I need to know WHAT type of corn Mexicans use to make their Tortillas ? If ever there was a fact of little use to the average person, that could be it.
Not only do I not know the minutiae of Tortilla production, I REALLY don't care.

Roberto - 8-22-2007 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
Why do people ccommute >1 hr per day? Do they like devoting their "free" time to sitting in their oversized car/suv?

Yup, that must be it. :lol:

Barry A. - 8-22-2007 at 03:59 PM

roberto-----

My son commutes 40 miles to work------that is 80 miles a day------because he could not afford to buy a house in the town that his very good job is located.

People live in the Imperial Valley and commute to San Diego daily for the same reasons.

Roberto - 8-22-2007 at 04:08 PM

Barry --- that was my point. People don't "choose" to commute long distances. Given the option they would live as close to work as possible, right? The option, however is not available, especially in this day where people change jobs every three years on average.

Why would you interpret my comment otherwise?

Barry A. - 8-22-2007 at 04:13 PM

roberto----

because I am not very alert.

My comment should have been directed to magoat66, not you. Your comment was very appropriate.

Sorry about that.

Barry

Minnow - 8-22-2007 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
BTW, BaitFish, WHY would I need to know WHAT type of corn Mexicans use to make their Tortillas ? If ever there was a fact of little use to the average person, that could be it.
Not only do I not know the minutiae of Tortilla production, I REALLY don't care.

Mr. Bill.

Thanks for proving where you are coming from. Mazteca is a Brand of tortilla mix. Not that I would expect you to know. Not a type of corn. :bounce:

See, you don't know everything.

Keep it coming old man. I think you are GREAT! :saint:

DENNIS - 8-22-2007 at 06:51 PM

I think it's, "Maseca."

Not that it really matters.

toneart - 8-22-2007 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

[Edited on 21-8-2007 by Minnow]

Minnow,

Don't you think that Mexico could grow enough sweet corn if they need to? Looks like the need is already upon them.

Minnow?

Minnow - 8-22-2007 at 08:08 PM

Certainly Tone. However, my point was that corn for human consumption was secondary. What brings in the money is a nice fat cow. Pure economics. Silage also grows faster. and requires less water . :spingrin:

In the US corn producers are also subsidized. In MX ,market forces come much more into play.

[Edited on 23-8-2007 by Minnow]

A Little Humor from the other side.

MrBillM - 8-25-2007 at 05:33 PM

Today's Riverside Press-Enterprise editorial section included a letter from a guy named Fuentes who noted that "we should look around and see how many cities in California have Spanish Names, proving that OUR Grandfathers were here Before the Europeans ever came".

Apparently, Senor Fuentes slept through his Geography class and is unaware of the location of Spain.

DENNIS - 8-25-2007 at 06:07 PM

He had to get that from the La Raza book of logic.