BajaNomad - San Ignacio Lagoon

San Ignacio Lagoon

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safarigirl - 8-26-2007 at 01:00 PM

I've been going to San Ignacio Lagoon for a many years, and now that I live in the Southwest and am not able to visit Baja as much as I'd like to, I realize how important it is to me that the Lagoon is protected. In fact, I'd like to do something about it - and I don't mean just throw money at it. Does anyone have a suggestion of who might be best to contact about what I can do? Whether it's work at one of the places on the Lagoon when the whales are there, or......? Any input greatly appreciated.

David K - 8-26-2007 at 01:01 PM

What do want to protect the lagoon from?

safarigirl - 8-26-2007 at 01:12 PM

You've been going to Baja as long as I perhaps (25 years), to ask a rhetorical question. So, I'm sure you are aware that a few years ago the NRDC and Serge Dedina's Wild Coast, among others were successful in postponing the Mexican government and Mitsubishi from establishing a salt plant in the Lagoon. Since you've experienced the grey whales in the Lagoon I'm sure you are aware that it is a very special place, and perhaps you, like me want it to remain a natural place where the whales can continue to bear their young.

woody with a view - 8-26-2007 at 01:18 PM

ask wildcoast what you can do.....we all just wanna surf....well maybe not all....

DianaT - 8-26-2007 at 01:21 PM

San Ignacio Lagoon is special. When we were there last year, the owner of the small hotel where we stayed said that they were going to pave that road---1/2 this year and 1/2 next year. He was not happy about it as he knows it will change everything.

We were lucky last year as they must have just graded the road when we drove out----smooth riding.

Does anyone know if they started the paving or if it is or is not going to happen?

Diane and John

baja Steve - 8-26-2007 at 01:41 PM

I work with a group that works with the remote schools in BCS. We believe that the best way to help and to protect the special areas of Baja is through education. We also have been hearing for several years that the road from San Ignacio to the Laguna and on to San Juanico was going to be paved some time, the last year or so it seems to have been brought to the top of the list due to the increased amount of truck traffic on Hy1 and the amount travel time it would save.
We have been working with the schools in Laguna San Ignacio and San Pedro for many years getting better educational materials and help with satellite education. Anything you can do to get educational material and yourself to the kids and teachers to teach them about saving the area they live in would be a way better in my mind then giving to some organization that you really do not know where the money is going for sure.

David K - 8-26-2007 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by safarigirl
You've been going to Baja as long as I perhaps (25 years), to ask a rhetorical question. So, I'm sure you are aware that a few years ago the NRDC and Serge Dedina's Wild Coast, among others were successful in postponing the Mexican government and Mitsubishi from establishing a salt plant in the Lagoon. Since you've experienced the grey whales in the Lagoon I'm sure you are aware that it is a very special place, and perhaps you, like me want it to remain a natural place where the whales can continue to bear their young.

I just asked what do YOU want to protect the lagoon from...

The San Ignacio salt mine project was defeated... more so for the 5 mile long pier at Abreojos and local objections I think than any other reason... Afterall, salt works at Scammon's Lagoon has been going on for almost 50 years, and the whales have not been detered from having their young there.

Do you think that the people who own the land (Mexico) can't deal with these issues without gringos getting involved?

Again... just want to hear your reasons so I and others may learn something, perhaps...

Thank you for your time!

safarigirl - 8-26-2007 at 05:11 PM

I think you're confusing me with someone else...you're assumptions don't apply to me I'm not a gringa and don't think the way you seem to assume I do.

bajajudy - 8-26-2007 at 05:24 PM

This might help

go to my website, then links, then nature and conservation and you will find a list of several organizations active in preservation of Baja.

toneart - 8-26-2007 at 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by safarigirl
I think you're confusing me with someone else...you're assumptions don't apply to me I'm not a gringa and don't think the way you seem to assume I do.

There are a lot of helpful people on this board. Also, as you may know, there are detractors when the topic has anything to do with the environment. If you should encounter one of the detractors, keep searching and stay in The Light. You will find a fit that is right for you.

Last April I flew over to San Ignacio Lagoon from Mulege. The pilot of the Cessna was sensitive enough to know not to fly out over the water.

I support you and what you are trying to do.

bajajudy - 8-26-2007 at 06:00 PM

Here is some info more specific. You can still check out the other orgs on my site

http://www.wildcoast.net/site/index.php?option=com_content&a...

Barry A. - 8-26-2007 at 06:17 PM

Safari girl-------Now I am REALLY confused------you apparently are a Citizen of Mexico, (you say you are not a Gringa) but you have not revealed what you want to protect San Ignacio Lagoon FROM. I too am curious, interested, and would like to know if you know any specific reasons that San Ignacio Lagoon needs protection. If so, I might be inclined to get involved also.

capt. mike - 8-27-2007 at 06:17 AM

Quote:

Last April I flew over to San Ignacio Lagoon from Mulege. The pilot of the Cessna was sensitive enough to know not to fly out over the water

actually it is illegal to do that. and the pilot surely may be respective of the whale's peace - but if you're going to fly in baja, just like in the USA, you have to know the airspace and rules. that area has a protection barrier horiz and vert you cannot legally penetrate. if caught there are serious consequences. and mex bio-life agents have binocs to tag your number or might drive over to chat if you park after a buzz job.

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 07:33 AM

Capt. Mike-------------

That is really interesting----it seems there is always more to the story than first meets the eye. I was not aware of that closed (restricted?) airspace---an example of how Mexico IS protecting the whale habitat from disturbing influences, and I applaud that.

Since SafariGirl has nor responded lately, I must assume that she has alas, "moved on". With her apparent lack of tenacity, and unwillingness to explain what she wants to do, I have some doubts that she will be an effective deterent to those forces that she believes may threaten the San Ignacio Lagoon.

I am disappointed that she was deterred so easily------but that is the way things go, I guess. I was hoping to learn something from her, like I did from you.

Thanks for the info, Capt. Mike.

Barry

805gregg - 8-27-2007 at 07:33 AM

They should protect the Lagoon from all the tourists that want to touch or even kiss the poor whales, just leave them in peace.

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 07:39 AM

805Greg------

It has been my experience that many of the whales appear to enjoy the interaction if not too aggressive. But your right in that the visits by us'uns should be limited and controlled, I think.

shari - 8-27-2007 at 08:34 AM

Capt. Mike is right...the lagoons are a NO FLY zone...and I am happy to have had a small hand in that...when I was doing research, I witnessed the horror of what happens when planes buzz whales...because they can't figure out where the noise is coming from (they can when the engines are in the water), they dive straight to down to avoid being hit by a "ship"...when they have their calves as in the lagoon, they take their calves down...only problem in newborn calves don't have a very big lunga capacity and cannot hold their breath for long...so they can drown when avioding planes...nasty truth...so if your pilots want to show you whales below a 1,000'....just say NO! Just a note, the san ignacio salt project is not cancelled....just postponed (politically).

David K - 8-27-2007 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by safarigirl
I think you're confusing me with someone else...you're assumptions don't apply to me I'm not a gringa and don't think the way you seem to assume I do.

Safarigirl... I am not assuming anything beyond what you posted... You said this: "I've been going to San Ignacio Lagoon for a many years, and now that I live in the Southwest and am not able to visit Baja as much as I'd like to..."

That sounds like you live in the (U.S.) Southwest... I also don't presume how you think, but your avoiding the simple question is curious. All I asked is WHAT do you want to protect the whales from and wondered why you think Mexico is unable to do the job or that a foreign organization is somehow better?

Just tell the truth and be proud of what you are doing or want to do. I am not in judgement of you... I only want to have the complete details so I can make a sound decision to support your cause or not.

In the past, I heard of foreign ('gringo') groups pretend to want to protect the whales or natural habitat. Instead money raised goes mostly into their pockets or politicians pockets.

I do respect Shari of Bahia Asuncion as a person who knows what is going on.

Thanks Shari for the note that the salt project is only postponed.

Shari, since the salt works at Scammon's Lagoon doesn't seem to prevent whales from breeding there, what (in your opinion) harm (if any) would an even more modern salt project on the salt flats above San Ignacio Lagoon have on the whales there?

Thanks for the information...

David K - 8-27-2007 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
They should protect the Lagoon from all the tourists that want to touch or even kiss the poor whales, just leave them in peace.

The whales are far bigger than we are and can do what they want... If you watch the videos of the whale watchers, they simply go to a spot and wait there. The whales come to the people... even pushing their young close to have contact with the humans.

It is quite clear that the whales WANT to interact with the humans, so why deny them the pleasure? Isn't showing friendship between humans and animals good in your opinion?

Kiss a whale? Not sure about that, but it would make a great bumper sticker!

safarigirl - 8-27-2007 at 09:57 AM

Thanks, BajaJudy, I appreciate your input.
And, Tony good to hear from you again after Mulege' - guess you're almost on your way back down for the winter.
To the couple of you with the derogatory responses, sorry for my tardiness in responding; been working 24 hours straight and just got access to a computer again. Didn't realize there was a strict timeframe....warm regards to you both.

The Sculpin - 8-27-2007 at 10:12 AM

You tell'em girl!!!!!

TacoFeliz - 8-27-2007 at 10:14 AM

safarigirl -

I didn't see any detractors in the posts, just people who want you to elaborate. Please give us more info -- your point of view, your hopes, what you're envisioning... It's one of my favorite places as well.

feliz

mtgoat666 - 8-27-2007 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
In the past, I heard of foreign ('gringo') groups pretend to want to protect the whales or natural habitat. Instead money raised goes mostly into their pockets or politicians pockets.

DK,
Don't be so quick to tar and feather environmental groups. US and Mexican enviro groups have a >10 year history of working on the lagoon's issues, and the good accomplishments far outweigh any negative. You should go to San Ignacio lagoon and check it and talk with locals innvolved in the eco-torism business before you condemn the environmental groups and their accomplishments. Kiss a whale while you are there, it's a kick

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 11:30 AM

Skulpin----------that is exactly what we want her to do------tell us something. How can we learn if she won't?

Russ - 8-27-2007 at 11:35 AM

I've talked with people that work and do research there and everyone of them have said that whale watching is a win/win situation. It is highly regulated and with all the tourist coming now you couldn't ask for a better conservation based promotion. The locals have a steady income base. During the off season the make curios for the tourist.
Here are just 3 photos. I don't know how to post multiple photos in one post..... Yet?

[Edited on 8-27-2007 by Russ]

BabyWhale3.jpg - 49kB

Russ - 8-27-2007 at 11:36 AM

#2

BabyWhale2.jpg - 48kB

Russ - 8-27-2007 at 11:36 AM

#3

Baby whale 1.jpg - 49kB

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 11:54 AM

Good stuff, Russ.

By the way, anybody that works 24 hours a day has got to be operating at 1/2 speed, and groggy as all get out, so I should cut her some slack, it seems to me.

I will excercise patience, and wait for her response this time.

Oh, and by the way, I do NOT consider myself as an "environmental detractor"-------it is just my many years with the National Park Service that makes me wary of some enviros-----------some tend to over-react, and be not open to ideas other than their own. I hope that SafariGirl is not one of them------------(????)

toneart - 8-27-2007 at 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

Last April I flew over to San Ignacio Lagoon from Mulege. The pilot of the Cessna was sensitive enough to know not to fly out over the water

Mike,

Read my quote again. I said the pilot had the sensitivity to NOT fly over the lagoon (water). We flew over the mountain and did not buzz the area. We maintained a high altitude and the view of the lagoon was from a great and respectful distance from the Lagoon. Why would you think that I, whose concern for environmental issues are quite apparent, boast of violating a whale sanctuary??? If you cross those mountains you can't not have a view of the Lagoon.

I think that it is a good thing that you inform Nomads of a "restricted" fly zone. My pilot was aware of the restricted zone, which was my point.

Regarding potential detractors (in my opinion.....just a suspicion...I am subject to criticism for my suspicion) I think they did a good job in further explaning their positions. Sorry for my attitude....I admit it exists. I also am disappointed that the woman who started this string hasn't responded to your questions. I too would like to hear her concerns. Again, I support her desire to make a difference (if that is possible).

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 12:11 PM

toneArt----------you are mis-interpreting what Mike said, I think------he only pointed out that it is illegal to fly over the San Ignacio Lagoon, and probably the pilot knew that------he never said that YOU wanted to violate the Lagoon, or that the pilot did either.

But Mike can explain himself a lot better than I can, I am sure.

toneart - 8-27-2007 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
toneArt----------you are mis-interpreting what Mike said, I think------he only pointed out that it is illegal to fly over the San Ignacio Lagoon, and probably the pilot knew that------he never said that YOU wanted to violate the Lagoon, or that the pilot did either.

But Mike can explain himself a lot better than I can, I am sure.

Well, he did respond to my post by saying, "that's illegal". I think he didn't see the
"not" in my post. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about what we did and didn't do. I don't take offense. Capt. Mike knows the rules of flying in Baja, and he is right to inform.

safarigirl - 8-27-2007 at 12:50 PM

I am sorry I started this post. It was not my intention to get embroiled in an environmental discussion, nor do I have the time or inclination to educate anyone about the Lagoon right now.

Rather, I have spent many, many years in remote places in Baja and have also lived there. The past couple years I have not been able to do so, and find that the peninsula is very important to me, so much so that I want to spend my time and energy protecting what I so deeply care about. My simple question was in hopes that someone who has spent time there in the past year or two, and is familiar with the issues concerning the Lagoon, may have a suggestion on how best I might now do that.

Although the issues are complex, below is something Serge Dedina from Wildcoast says about this last natural place on earth where the grey whales (longest migration of any mammal on the planet) go to breed, rasie their young, and actually seek interaction with humans - one of the very same places that ran red with their blood 100 yrs. ago when whales were slaughtered there:

" this wetland complex is a global treasure and one of the world’s most biologically significant coastal sites.In 2000, thanks to national and international pressure, the Mexican government cancelled an industrial salt production project, which would have devastated Laguna San Ignacio. But this victory did not mean permanent protection of Laguna San Ignacio: a new salt production federal concession, mega-resorts, and land speculation threaten to dramatically alter the pristine lagoon, and hundreds of square miles of wetlands and mangroves."

Russ - 8-27-2007 at 01:09 PM

Wasn't there a post awhile that stated that some conservancy purchased a long term lease from the ejido for a large portion of this area?
Found something from awhile ago:

Save San Ignacio Lagoon. WiLDCOAST, Pronatura, NRDC, and the International Community Foundation, recently protected 140,000-acres along the shoreline of San Ignacio Lagoon (midway between Abreojos and Scorpion Bay), in a project that also plans to conserve Punta Abreojos and the coast north of Scorpion Bay. You can help save one of Baja's great wilderness surfbreak areas for ten dollars an acre. Go to savethegraywhale.com and donate now.
---- http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=17162#pid1470...

[Edited on 8-27-2007 by Russ]

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 01:21 PM

Great response, Safarigirl--------now we know your intentions-------I apologise if I caused you any distress, or took up your time-----------

I think a few of the posts actually helped you---------and that is good. Don't condemn us or think us hostile----we aren't-------we need people of all types on this board to keep us all honest. :lol:

I hope you find a conduit for your zeal, and willingness to help the causes you believe in, and it sounds like you will, or have already.

Look forward to future posts by you.

Best, Barry

mtgoat666 - 8-27-2007 at 01:44 PM

Safarigirl,
The best source of info on land preservation efforts are some of the eco-tourism outfits, and the orgs like WiLDCOAST, Pronatura and NRDC. This board in my experience is usually lacking in knowledge of and participation in the larger environnmental activities in Baja, like san ignacio lagoon.
There has been a lot of recent progress in establishing "preservation easements" where orgs have bought development rights from land owners. A couple examples are at the lagoon and BOLA. Also active efforts are underway to stop destruction of turtles via poachers, and bycatch destruction by long liners, drift nets and shrimp fishing. It's a big area, many places threatened, pick your fight and join in. Always need more to battle the destructive influences of development and apathy.

Debra - 8-27-2007 at 02:22 PM

805Greg,

I too once thought "leave the poor whales alone" Then a few years ago I saw just how anxious they are for human contact, as someone else said here, the mothers bring the infants TO THE BOATS, (It kind of looked to me like when I take my kids to the zoo) this April my then 13yr. old (huge eco/animal protector) was able to for the first time experience the lagoon........talk about a thrill for this kid that dreams of nothing but working with animals when he gr ows up! One mother brought the baby over and pushed him/her up from below to the reach of our hands.

They obviously love human contact or with one swish of their tails would be long go! Also, as David K. said, the panga drivers go out where there are whale in the area and idle, if they come to us, fine.........if not, we move on. Never, never are they allowed to follow a whale that is swimming away.

805gregg - 8-27-2007 at 03:22 PM

So are you telling me you only go out with the whales because the whales want you to? Why are you not allowed within 100 yrds of whales in Hawaii? You watch, someone will get between a mother and her calf and get spanked. I've seen film of a women swimming with porpoises, who got a thrill ride down to about 60 ft when one grabbed her by the calf. These are wild anamials and should be treated as such. They come by where I live in the Santa Barbara channel, I won't even turn my boat any more, I just let them be.

David K - 8-27-2007 at 04:01 PM

Thanks safarigirl for posting some details, finally... I only asked you what you wanted to protect the lagoon from... nothing complicated.

I think I gather you want to protect it from things that don't yet exist there, but could someday? I think that is called 'preserving'... keeping it the way it is now.

Good for you!

I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.

However, Baja is part of Mexico and how or when it is developed is their business... I can only hope it will stay wild and beautiful for as long as possible!

rts551 - 8-27-2007 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.

However, Baja is part of Mexico and how or when it is developed is their business... I can only hope it will stay wild and beautiful for as long as possible!

You can't have it both ways. Better hurry and go down more than a couple of weeks a year before it is all gone.

and before you condemn me. look at the changes in the last 5 years!.

Ralph

David K - 8-27-2007 at 04:51 PM

Both ways? I understand completely what is happening and why... I have enjoyed Baja for 42 years of my almost 50... and I hope to continue to do so!

Check Nomad Trip Reports forum, my web site and Baja Notebook links and you will see I spend far more than a couple a weeks per year there... There will always be places to explore or visit again... That's what makes Baja magic!

toneart - 8-27-2007 at 05:54 PM

David,
Thank you for all your trip reports and photos. It is clear that your many years of exploration and your enthusiasm for sharing, reveals a genuine love for Baja. I also like the way you have clearly stated your thoughts and further explained them in this string.

Safarigirl,
Thank you for coming back and for your love and concern for Baja and the Lagoon de San Ignacio....and of course, the whales. Don't be sorry. You have generated some good dialog here. Stay in touch here and give us reports as to what you have found.

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by toneart]

woody with a view - 8-27-2007 at 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by safarigirl
I am sorry I started this post. It was not my intention to get embroiled in an environmental discussion, nor do I have the time or inclination to educate anyone about the Lagoon right now.

Rather, I have spent many, many years in remote places in Baja and have also lived there. The past couple years I have not been able to do so, and find that the peninsula is very important to me, so much so that I want to spend my time and energy protecting what I so deeply care about. My simple question was in hopes that someone who has spent time there in the past year or two, and is familiar with the issues concerning the Lagoon, may have a suggestion on how best I might now do that.

Although the issues are complex, below is something Serge Dedina from Wildcoast says about this last natural place on earth where the grey whales (longest migration of any mammal on the planet) go to breed, rasie their young, and actually seek interaction with humans - one of the very same places that ran red with their blood 100 yrs. ago when whales were slaughtered there:

" this wetland complex is a global treasure and one of the world’s most biologically significant coastal sites.In 2000, thanks to national and international pressure, the Mexican government cancelled an industrial salt production project, which would have devastated Laguna San Ignacio. But this victory did not mean permanent protection of Laguna San Ignacio: a new salt production federal concession, mega-resorts, and land speculation threaten to dramatically alter the pristine lagoon, and hundreds of square miles of wetlands and mangroves."

"i wanna do something! please tell me what to do!" :?:

i don't think anyone wants your time or inclination for an educational expose' on the lagoon either. maybe you should just go and report back to everyone how your experience changed the lagoon for the better!

what happened? grateful dead not touring?

Crusoe - 8-27-2007 at 06:14 PM

Safarigirl.....Thank you for your post and your replys.....You Go Girl!!!! ...I too have spent over 40 years exploring lots of Baja....by sea and by land.And I too have spent quite sometime around San Ignacio Lagoon observing whales and also many small boat sailing trips up and down the Pacific Coast and many trips up all the way north and south obse

rving sealife and whales in the Sea of Cortez. The highlight for us, as is for many, is seeing all the whale activity, along with all the seabirds and sea life. It gives us such a beautiful sense of how important it is to preserve what is left, and to rebuild what has vanished. You will find the right organization. Greenpeace in Mexico is doing some great things now.I do not have all the statistical facts of how fast some areas are deterorating, but from a long time of close observation it seems as if just the last 15 years or so,things are really changing fast.Every person can make a difference. I think that is what the whales are trying to tell us when they come close to us. We just need to learn.... how to listen. ++C++

woody with a view - 8-27-2007 at 06:54 PM

perhaps....

Bajamatic - 8-27-2007 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.

Question DK: Would that still be your wish if you could no longer operate any sort of vehicle on those roads? I know the intent of your post, so I'm not trying to stir up dirt here (I share the same selfish dream) but thought it posed a curious question.

David K - 8-27-2007 at 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.

No, not at all... Operating motor vehicles (4WD or buggy) is how we adventure loving people enjoy Baja... Bad dirt roads makes Baja available for ANYONE to enjoy, provided they show some effort to get there by having a 4X4 or other off road vehicle... it will be MORE appreciated and more enjoyed! :bounce:

You see, God gave us Baja to enjoy provided we show some effort to get there... The bad roads make us worthy of Baja. :saint:

Good roads (the work of the devil) allow everyone to get there... the good, the bad, and the ugly! :smug:

With good roads, and less effort or investment to get to the beautiful places... they are not appreciated the same way or as much as it was before.

People who don't appeciate a place are more likely to destroy it or tarnish it... grafitti, sea walls, private property signs, resort hotels, trash, etc. You see, the devil's work! :yes:

mtgoat666 - 8-27-2007 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I would like to preserve Baja from any more graded or paved roads! That is the enemy of natural beauty for it brings in development and change.

You see, God gave us Baja to enjoy provided we show some effort to get there... The bad roads make us worthy of Baja. :saint:

Good roads (the work of the devil) allow everyone to get there... the good, the bad, and the ugly! :smug:

and then there is "walking" so one can get away from the 4wd crowd that is spoiling the wilderness

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 09:11 PM

Mr. Goat------

If we followed your logic to it's logical conclusion then we would have "areas" totally shut off to man's intrusion, and NOBODY would EVER enjoy it!!!! If NOBODY ever enjoyed it, would it really exist????? :lol:

toneart - 8-27-2007 at 10:59 PM

Now you guys are getting Zen like, as in:

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to witness it, did it really happen?....Kinda like the sound of one hand clapping. :wow:

yeah - my comment's mis construed.

capt. mike - 8-28-2007 at 06:15 AM

Quote:

Thx Barry -

There was no connected reference in my text to the act of Toneart's pilot - only a general statement that "that act" if perpetrated by anyone is illegal.

of course it was clear to me in his statement that the guy didn't buzz the lagoon's protected areas.

Now i have circled low at non breeding areas that do not have restrictions to view whales from a legal height of 500 ft.
it's amazing with a big pod.
biggest one we saw was outside of San carlos around mag bay, plus others (not greys) at concepcion.

mtgoat666 - 8-28-2007 at 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Mr. Goat------

If we followed your logic to it's logical conclusion then we would have "areas" totally shut off to man's intrusion, and NOBODY would EVER enjoy it!!!! If NOBODY ever enjoyed it, would it really exist????? :lol:

sounds like a good conclusion. wilderness has value, and nothing is stopping people from hiking to access wilderness. the ADA does not guarentee the right to drive anywhere one wants. preservation of the little amount of remaining wilderness is more important as development gets more dense.

wilderone - 8-28-2007 at 08:29 AM

safarigirl - you do what you have to. And there are many of us who tune into this forum who will support you. Ignore those clowns who may diminish your purpose.

mtgoat - Amen.

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
safarigirl - you do what you have to. And there are many of us who tune into this forum who will support you. Ignore those clowns who may diminish your purpose.

mtgoat - Amen.

safarigirl, I also respect your desire to save San Ignacio Lagoon and never thought it needed detailed explanation---go for it.

I still wonder if they have started the paving of the road---I hope not.

Diane

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 09:04 AM

Mt. Goat--------

We HAVE wilderness areas-----lots of them!!! Look at any BLM, USFS or NPS land status map of the western states and you can see what I mean.

I just got back from a 4,500 mile jaunt around the west, and I can tell you that there is a lot of wild lands out there, and much of it is not under wilderness designation (yet, thank God). We spent many days in our 4x4 camper in wild non-wilderness areas camping out and we saw very few, or no people. Locking up MORE lands in wilderness designation is an over-reaction, in my opinion. This is/was a good idea originally, but we are now going way too far (as usually happens).

There is, generally speaking, way more trees and wild animals now in North America than ever before, as far as can be determined. I admit that the "range" needs improvement, and less grazing, but generally speaking things are in pretty good shape, botony wise. Wet lands are becoming rare too, but we are working on that, tho maybe too late.

The "lock it up" crowd has prevailed------ now it is time for some balance, it seems to me. I am not handicapped, but at 70 it is difficult if not impossible for me to walk into "wilderness" areas as the distances are just too far. Therefore wilderness areas only exist in my immagination, and that is not good enough for me.

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Mt. Goat--------

We HAVE wilderness areas-----lots of them!!! Look at any BLM, USFS or NPS land status map of the western states and you can see what I mean.

I just got back from a 4,500 mile jaunt around the west, and I can tell you that there is a lot of wild lands out there, and much of it is not under wilderness designation (yet, thank God). We spent many days in our 4x4 camper in wild non-wilderness areas camping out and we saw very few, or no people. Locking up MORE lands in wilderness designation is an over-reaction, in my opinion. This is/was a good idea originally, but we are now going way too far (as usually happens).

There is, generally speaking, way more trees and wild animals now in North America than ever before, as far as can be determined. I admit that the "range" needs improvement, and less grazing, but generally speaking things are in pretty good shape, botony wise. Wet lands are becoming rare too, but we are working on that, tho maybe too late.

The "lock it up" crowd has prevailed------ now it is time for some balance, it seems to me. I am not handicapped, but at 70 it is difficult if not impossible for me to walk into "wilderness" areas as the distances are just too far. Therefore wilderness areas only exist in my immagination, and that is not good enough for me.

Sounds like you found lots of places to go to be alone---good. So why would you need any more wilderness areas opened up? We are not as able to hike into the true wilderness areas as in the past, but we will always support the protective designation of wilderness----as you said, enough other places to go. Without the preservation of the wilderness, we would have places like Disneyland in the Kings Canyon area of California---does anyone remember that effort?

Oh, there are lots more places to go to be alone on BLM land, but often ranchers fence it off pretending that they own it. So back to Baja.

Diane and John

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
What do want to protect the lagoon from?

Here was my entire question to her... Was that so hard that she had to avoid it and cause so much cross discussion?

Come on folks, if you want to protect something, you should be able to know what it needs protecting from. Just the facts... please!

If you have to ask and have details, IMHO, you don't understand. :yes:

Diane

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 09:25 AM

Diane and John--------

Wow, this is frustrating!!! I know how Capt. Mike and David K feel now-------------------read my post again-------------nowhere do I advocate the "removal" of the wilderness designation (tho it would be appropriate in some cases)-----------------what I am saying is that I question the need for MORE wilderness areas.

Barry

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane and John--------

Wow, this is frustrating!!! I know how Capt. Mike and David K feel now-------------------read my post again-------------nowhere do I advocate the "removal" of the wilderness designation (tho it would be appropriate in some cases)-----------------what I am saying is that I question the need for MORE wilderness areas.

Barry

We also support MORE wilderness areas---so no, we did not misunderstand.

John and Diane

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 09:31 AM

Diane-------

It seems to me that your reply to David K. outlines the "problem" exquisitely.

You imply that we all should just have a knee-jerk reaction to any environmental issue of automatically supporting it----------this IS at least part of the problem. Not all issues that appear environmentally related, ARE. And many times actions are not really necessary. Each has to stand on it's own merits, and the only way to determine that is to ask questions, it seems to me.

Barry

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane-------

It seems to me that your reply to David K. outlines the "problem" exquisitely.

You imply that we all should just have a knee-jerk reaction to any environmental issue of automatically supporting it----------this IS at least part of the problem. Not all issues that appear environmentally related, ARE. And many times actions are not really necessary. Each has to stand on it's own merits, and the only way to determine that is to ask questions, it seems to me.

Barry

Such assumptions and the expected response --- not worth responding to---opps, I am responding----logging off now.
:yes:

Diane

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 09:38 AM

So Diane----------you support the "closures" on BLM by the ranchers, even tho they have no legal right to do this? What they are doing is establishing defacto wilderness areas (most BLM wilderness still allows grazing) and you say you support MORE wilderness areas. This is tunnel vision, to my way of thinking------somehow you object to the "closures" by the ranchers, but govt. closures are ok, and you support them in general.

Pretty confusing stuff to me.

shari - 8-28-2007 at 10:01 AM

"good roads (devils work)"???? Oh my David K....I wish many of you Nomads would POR FAVOR just for one minuto think about the poor local mexicanos who live in the remote villages who spend all their meagre income on tires and fixing their cars due to crappy washboard...I doubt even one of these locals would advocate the devil has something to do with improving the roads. I would love you to come and see the smiles of relief and hearty aplause when the government announces road paving into here. These villages NEED better roads to improve their standard of living...to reduce the costs of transportation....heck we don't even have a bus service linking us to the highway because of the bad road. The coops will be able to get their product to market more efficiently and the economy will improve much to the delight of all this God loving community. The coastal fish camps are ecstactic about the road improvements...the devil works in mysterious ways for sure...lbut I doubt has a hand in road improvements!

Now back to the lagoon issue and whales seeking out human companionship...well I hate to burst your bubbles but the whales in san ignacio are just killing time before they head north and got nothin better to do than hang out looking at tourists...BUT the problem is that these "friendly" whales are the first to die at the hands of hunters and often get run over by boaters who don't know what to do around a whale...it is a well known fact that human habituated animals are always the first to die at the hands of humans...so sure we love to pet whales but it's just not good for them and INMO should NOT be encouraged...if I had my way, I would make a law against touching whales...it's cool if they hang out around your boat...you can gaze into their eyes and marvel at their enourmous size and gentleness...but why in the heck do you have to TOUCH it? :?:

I have seen a calf get run over and die because it's mom was too friendly...she swam up to the boat and the driver didn't see the calf...she's not friendly anymore and flipped the boat over and has smashed other boats too...there are tons of incidents you never hear about of aggressive whales, or angry whales that are just fed up with being chased around all day and woken up from their much needed naps after that super ;migration...I have been in these lagoon for over 15 years, before whale watching began and I can tell you from experience that it is VERY common for boat operators to chase whales around....all day every day during the season. get real folks. The best way to help whales is to eliminate whale watching from boats.

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 10:24 AM

Good stuff, Shari, and a lot I did not know. You have a very good point.

Barry

Don Alley - 8-28-2007 at 11:31 AM

Re: Whale Watching

We've done it, it was fun, but it seemed to clash with values instilled in many years of living in wildlife intensive Montana. Approaching and petting wild animals. Hmmmm...

There seems to also be a belief that these "eco-tourism" activities do little or no harm. I doubt it. I would not be surprised if there are "incidents" as Shari relates, and that these become more common. And more visits by whale watchers will result in more development, more pollution, etc.

Re: San Ignacio Lagoon

The discussion has been primarily from the perspective of whales. If I remember correctly, Kira's Baja Catch has already written the lagoon off as being wiped out for fin fishing by netting and trawling. Fortunately, as fish populations have plummeted, we have a whale watching season to subsidize the boats to keep the pressure on the remnant fish population. :rolleyes:

Russ - 8-28-2007 at 01:49 PM

I was just talking about this thread with another friend that has some interest in whales. He is of the same belief as Shari. He also said that during the whaling days that the gray whales were considered the most dangerous. So, now I need to listen more and may have to eat my "win win" statement. --- Caw!..Caw! uhm.. crow taste a lot like spotted owl. -Oh, and is "eco-tourism" an oxymarooon or what?

805gregg - 8-28-2007 at 02:02 PM

When the mother whale pushes her calf toward the tourists, she is probable telling it, "take a look these are the anamials, they are the one's that almost made us extinct, remember what they look like".

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 02:48 PM

805 Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!!!!!! :lol:

Slowmad - 8-28-2007 at 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
What do want to protect the lagoon from?

Instead of browbeating a girl, if you're sincerely interested why don't you educate yourself?
You like to trumpet your 42-year history and vast well of Baja knowledge (cough), but most often you blather on like a dumb Okie awash in a sea of exclamation points and pee-poor grammar.

Before you weigh in on whale propogation dynamics pre- and post-saltworks at GN, or hold some earnest young woman's feet to the fire, you might want to raise your Baja IQ to at least the 7th grade level.
Maybe start with the Journal from the Ocean Bird (by a cat named Scammon), then wrap with Saving the Gray Whale (Dedina).

Until then (as with most topics on this board you feel compelled to bloviate on) do us a favor and STFU.

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by Slowmad]

Pescador - 8-28-2007 at 03:54 PM

One year in Baja they ran out of gas and Santa Rosalia was the last diesel I could find so I found myself waiting in Guerro Negro, along with about 500 of my closest friends, for a delivery truck. A friend and I decided it would be fun to take the whale tour out of Mallarimo hotel and restaurant. They had enough business that they sent a station wagon with lots of gas cans up to El Rosario to get fuel. The next morning, the bus that was to take us to the Ojo Liebre was definately a sight to see. One of the first guys in line came out of a beat up old Volvo and sported a rastafarian dreadlock hairdo and a peculiar body odor that you knew would be a problem if he sat in the front of the boat. He had his banjo and flute which he was planning on playing for the whales.
The next person was a girl with pretty much the same hairdo and trailing three little children who were also dressed in tie dyed clothing, and pretty much had used the same deodorant as the first gentleman.
The next three or four were looked pretty normal and were probably attending pretty much for the same reason as my friend and I. (gas shortage). Following this group was two couples who were dressed to the hilt with manicured toenails and fingernails, Eddie Bauer designer Whale Watching Clothing, (had little whales on the pockets) and enough camera equipment hanging around their necks to photograph a National Geographic Special.
The final 4 were a group who said they were from Greenpeace and they played whale recordings and sang whale songs all the way to the lagoon. They seemed especially interested why the Panga was using a motor and was not rowing the boat so that we might have a better encounter and learn to love and bond with the whales.
So when we finally found one hapless whale you can imagine the commotion and goings on in the boat. Rastafarian Charlie started playing the banjo and flute, Tie Dye girl went into meditation while the kids started trying to get out of the boat to bond with the whales, the Greenpeace group started playing orca tapes and chanting, and the ladies with the cameras started complaining about a broken acrylic nail. And all I could think of was: God, if you are going to take me, take me now.
I decided I liked to see whales when I was out in my own boat, and I marvel at the beauty and grace of these magnificent animals, but if you are wondering why the whales come up to the boat and look, that day I had my answer to that question.

Russ - 8-28-2007 at 04:02 PM

Jim, I have a friend who calls his boat, appropriately, "Ship of Fools". I think you were on his sister ship.

mtgoat666 - 8-28-2007 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
The best way to help whales is to eliminate whale watching from boats.

Maybe, maybe not. I think (but don't know for sure) that gray whales have managed to regain population quite well since the beginning of the friendly whales eco-tourism. Yes, whale watching may not be perfect for the whales, but on the other hand the increased awareness due to whale watching probably helps the whales long term, as people get all warm and fuzzy for the whales and lend their support to conservation legislation. In order to make conservation legislation happen, you need to get the populace behing the effort -- and whale watching has definitely helped in many ways to round up troops to continue the fight against bad members of the IWC who continue their relentless efforts to resume whaling.

woody with a view - 8-28-2007 at 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
One year in Baja they ran out of gas and Santa Rosalia was the last diesel I could find so I found myself waiting in Guerro Negro, along with about 500 of my closest friends, for a delivery truck. A friend and I decided it would be fun to take the whale tour out of Mallarimo hotel and restaurant. They had enough business that they sent a station wagon with lots of gas cans up to El Rosario to get fuel. The next morning, the bus that was to take us to the Ojo Liebre was definately a sight to see. One of the first guys in line came out of a beat up old Volvo and sported a rastafarian dreadlock hairdo and a peculiar body odor that you knew would be a problem if he sat in the front of the boat. He had his banjo and flute which he was planning on playing for the whales.
The next person was a girl with pretty much the same hairdo and trailing three little children who were also dressed in tie dyed clothing, and pretty much had used the same deodorant as the first gentleman.
The next three or four were looked pretty normal and were probably attending pretty much for the same reason as my friend and I. (gas shortage). Following this group was two couples who were dressed to the hilt with manicured toenails and fingernails, Eddie Bauer designer Whale Watching Clothing, (had little whales on the pockets) and enough camera equipment hanging around their necks to photograph a National Geographic Special.
The final 4 were a group who said they were from Greenpeace and they played whale recordings and sang whale songs all the way to the lagoon. They seemed especially interested why the Panga was using a motor and was not rowing the boat so that we might have a better encounter and learn to love and bond with the whales.
So when we finally found one hapless whale you can imagine the commotion and goings on in the boat. Rastafarian Charlie started playing the banjo and flute, Tie Dye girl went into meditation while the kids started trying to get out of the boat to bond with the whales, the Greenpeace group started playing orca tapes and chanting, and the ladies with the cameras started complaining about a broken acrylic nail. And all I could think of was: God, if you are going to take me, take me now.
I decided I liked to see whales when I was out in my own boat, and I marvel at the beauty and grace of these magnificent animals, but if you are wondering why the whales come up to the boat and look, that day I had my answer to that question.

POST OF THE DAY, HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!

Debra - 8-28-2007 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
So are you telling me you only go out with the whales because the whales want you to? Why are you not allowed within 100 yrds of whales in Hawaii? You watch, someone will get between a mother and her calf and get spanked. I've seen film of a women swimming with porpoises, who got a thrill ride down to about 60 ft when one grabbed her by the calf. These are wild anamials and should be treated as such. They come by where I live in the Santa Barbara channel, I won't even turn my boat any more, I just let them be.

I'm confused as to the question that you are asking, please explaine?

Debra - 8-28-2007 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Debra

Quote:

I'm confused as to the question that you are asking, please explaine?

Wiles - 8-28-2007 at 07:35 PM

Quote:

For educational porpoises only..........

It was a pilot whale (Globicephala sp.) which is in the dolphin family, not a porpoise. And you are correct in they are wild animals, big powerful animals and should be treated as such. This I know from personal experience.

Crusoe - 8-28-2007 at 07:47 PM

This is truly the "Post of THE YEAR" This is the new Baja!! Just relax and enjoy it. Its all going south. ++C++

Minnow - 8-28-2007 at 07:57 PM

Quote:

Gawd that is a great story. Has to be the post of the year. :lol:

Thanks for the belly laugh Jim.

Superb Performance

The Gull - 8-28-2007 at 08:03 PM

Go Woody :yes:

Go Pescador :yes:

Go DK

David K - 8-28-2007 at 09:52 PM

Too funny...

A bunch of hippies are dictating how we can interact with nature! :lol:

Pescador... YOU 'DA MAN!
:spingrin:

Gracias!

cardonhugger - 8-28-2007 at 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slowmad

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
What do want to protect the lagoon from?

No.......HERE'S the post of the past FIVE years............

HANDS DOWN..................

David K - 8-28-2007 at 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
"good roads (devils work)"???? Oh my David K....I wish many of you Nomads would POR FAVOR just for one minuto think about the poor local mexicanos who live in the remote villages who spend all their meagre income on tires and fixing their cars due to crappy washboard...I doubt even one of these locals would advocate the devil has something to do with improving the roads. I would love you to come and see the smiles of relief and hearty aplause when the government announces road paving into here. These villages NEED better roads to improve their standard of living...to reduce the costs of transportation....heck we don't even have a bus service linking us to the highway because of the bad road. The coops will be able to get their product to market more efficiently and the economy will improve much to the delight of all this God loving community. The coastal fish camps are ecstactic about the road improvements...the devil works in mysterious ways for sure...lbut I doubt has a hand in road improvements!

Shari... graded roads (washboard) are about as evil as paved roads... It is the deep pair of ruts that crossed the Baja deserts BEFORE graders and asphalt that I speak of.

I also know that a population needs good roads for their needs and business. I was refering to remote locations.

My references to dirt roads were in regards to 'preserving Baja' from development... What the surfers need to fear is the road graders and pavers that are advancing in the Seven Sisters area...

To those that don't even want to see 4WD vehicles camping in the back country... Shame on you! You want to deny the beauty of Baja from the old, young, handicapped, everyone except the most healthy backpacker types (who don't ever go on foot to the places we do). It's not your country... Your type has already closed too much PUBLIC lands from the PUBLIC in this country. See Barry's posts.

Understand that man is just as natural part of this planet as the animals...

David K - 8-28-2007 at 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cardonhugger

Quote:

Originally posted by Slowmad

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
What do want to protect the lagoon from?

No.......HERE'S the post of the past FIVE years............

HANDS DOWN..................

Agreed! How a such a simple and easy question can be called browbeating... That's hilarious!!! :lol:

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 10:20 PM

David,

You really don''t understand---that is something we have both realized recently, and John decided to remove the Got Baja sticker from our truck.

Oh yes, man is just as natural part of this planet as the animals because man IS an animal, just far more capable of massive destruction.

Diane and John

HotSchott - 8-29-2007 at 06:33 AM

I have a question, maybe you can help. I have spent most of my life in awe of all this stuff - which should be very important to everyone. Unfortunately I am no longer living where I can see this stuff every day and I miss it. I am exhausted and don't have time to tell you why this stuff is so important, but it is and you should know it. Anyone who doesn't think it is important is a bad person. So, does anyone know who is actively supporting protection of this stuff since I am not there any more to see it and am so exhausted.

Oh, and I am not a ******.

I need a tampon for this one...truly enlightening script here.

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by Hose A]

Minnow - 8-29-2007 at 07:07 AM

He is defending DK the best way he knows how. :fire:

David K - 8-29-2007 at 07:53 AM

You people are nuts... I just asked the person what SHE thinks the lagoon needs protection from.

John & Diane: You I really don't understand... removed a sticker you put on because why...? You don't 'got baja?' anymore??

If you are upset because we didn't visit you, I am sorry.... We were being guided around by Shari and didn't know where you lived even if we had some time for a visit. Nothing was meant to be disrespectful... We had a lot to try and see and Elizabeth and I do not show up at dinnertime unexpected... When we were done at San Roque, we were pretty hungry so Shari took us back to her place for some sushi and fish tacos. We left there at sundown.

I love Baja and think God gave it to us to improve our lives with what Baja offers. Those of you who think you are so much better that you can judge who or how we travel in Baja are pretty pathetic.

I show people what Baja has and if they can invest in a vehicle that is capable, leave a clean campsite so others may enjoy, then all the better. No secrets, no exclussions otherwise...

Chill... Baja Nomad is here to promote Baja travel and foster friendship among Baja loving people. Using Baja Nomad to tell others what they can't do in Baja (drive off road, pet a whale that comes to the boat, etc.) is not why Doug and others work so hard to keep this site here.

Have a nice day.

rts551 - 8-29-2007 at 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
You people are nuts... ..ur lives with what Baja offers. Those of you who think you are so much better that you can judge who or how we travel in Baja are pretty pathetic.

.
Chill... Baja Nomad is here to promote Baja travel and foster friendship among Baja loving people. Using Baja Nomad to tell others what they can't do in Baja (drive off road, pet a whale that comes to the boat, etc.) is not why Doug and others work so hard to keep this site here.

Have a nice day.

Obviously this only applies when posts fit your view of the world... just read the various posts...I guess fostering friendship only applies if you are not one of the "nuts")

Russ - 8-29-2007 at 08:45 AM

Jeeze ..... I thought we were all nuts. Of course when you cross the frontier in to the "States" you probable encounter more varieties. Don't go back is my thinking. I like this variety just fine.

Cypress - 8-29-2007 at 08:57 AM

For a bunch of folks espousing the laid-back, south of the border lifestyle, it sure seems like some of my fellow nomads are getting their panties in a wad mighty quick. :?:

Barry A. - 8-29-2007 at 09:19 AM

JDTrotter said-----"You really don''t understand---that is something we have both realized recently, and John decided to remove the Got Baja sticker from our truck."

Translation: I am picking up my marbles and going home.

Debra - 8-29-2007 at 09:20 AM

805Greg, Wiles was right it was a Pilot Whale, and if you watched that film as you state you did, you will remember that the woman involved stated that she felt that he was playing, and when he realized her distress quickly brought her to the surface.

Again, I ask, what is your question, and I have one. How much time have you spent educating yourself on whales? They are fasinating creatures and I think you might really enjoy getting to know them better.

To Cypress, YOU GO SIR! "panties in a wad" sheesh! Me thinks there has been some major mis-understanding going on since this thread started, everybody, take a deep breath, breath in, breath out. Okay, now RIP EACH OTHERS HEARTS OUT! :rolleyes:

Barry A. - 8-29-2007 at 09:42 AM

Hotshott------

I have no idea what you said originally as it has been edited by the moderators, but your first paragraph is a classic translation of the original "safarigirl" post-------------I about fell off my chair in hysterics!!!

So, we don't ALL think that you are a "blight". :lol:

Since I consider myself a "conservationist", I am mystified (once again) at the hostility displayed by fellow conservationists/preservationists towards folks that simply ask questions, and have a slightly different point of view.

It is Amazing!!!! to me. :?:

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by Barry A.]

Slowmad - 8-29-2007 at 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
You people are nuts...
God gave it to us
Baja Nomad is here to promote Baja travel

Easy there, Tiny.
You work for Fonotur or something?
Your Pied Piper routine is an ego-based wank.
Is your keyboard all "I's"?

Nomad appears to be a clearing house for all sorts of Baja topics...promotion being the least of them.

HotSchott - 8-29-2007 at 10:33 AM

Rhymes with wiener...and I guess it's a slur if you drool when you say it, but really what isn't racist any more? I shall inquire with my African American Frens an see what de says. Can anything be taken with a grain of salt any more? Oops I said salt - Sorry whale people - oops I said grain - sorry carnivores. Oops I said slur sorry harelips.

After reading five pages of this thread I really felt obligated to write something witty just to soak up some of the wine, but alas I have pricked some thin skin - that's what thorns do. Can I say prick?

Do people create new identities and post threads like this just to sit back and watch certain dynamic individuals chuck turd at each other. Methinks it is so...

What fitting blather for a 100th post. I need some frijoles.

toneart - 8-29-2007 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Too funny...

A bunch of hippies are dictating how we can interact with nature! :lol:

Well now......there you have it.

The "detractor" mentality that I suspected in my post on the first page is toxic.....for the environment....and for him, who is part of the environment whether he likes it or not.

mtgoat666 - 8-29-2007 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

A bunch of hippies are dictating how we can interact with nature! :lol:

DK, while you meant "hippie" as a slur, I take it with pride; however, if you need to grasp for old terminology, I'm more of an eco-beatnik (I do appreciate that you didn't try to slur us by calling us conservationists "conservatives"). :cool:

Barry A. - 8-29-2007 at 02:59 PM

Mr. Goat-----------

I am a "conservationist" and also "preservationist" and also a CONSERVATIVE--------------the three often go hand in hand, contrary to what you may be implying, or believe.

I believe that David was using the word "hippie" jokingly, not at a "slur"---------why is it that you would CHOOSE to interpret his meaning otherwise??

I guess I will have to spell it out that I am using the title "Mr. Goat" jokingly too, not as a slur. One certainly has to practice PC'ness to avoid criticism lately. :lol:

rts551 - 8-29-2007 at 03:22 PM

Barry

While Pescador told a very enlightening story, that I believe has application here, David chose to only focus on one of the groups in the story... thus the slur. Why not the nail lady?

Barry A. - 8-29-2007 at 03:30 PM

rts551------

So, if David had made comments about ALL the different folks in Pescador's story, then things would have been all right???? No slur????

I am blown away!!!!! and hugely confused and dismayed.

I think the person that said, "you just don't get it" has it right---------I DON'T!!! It is like we are from different planets, or something, and our thought processes are different.

Barry

The Gull - 8-29-2007 at 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
So, we don't ALL think that you are a "blight".

"Every absurdity has a champion to defend it" - Oliver Goldsmith

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