BajaNomad - a couple of questions

a couple of questions

Pages: 1 2

newbie - 8-27-2007 at 09:12 PM

Hello:

I have been contemplating leaving the US for more affordable pastures. I am still in the begginning stages of this so please bare with me. I was told the Baja Gold Coast is a great place to look into due to it's proximity to the US california. However, I do have a couple of concerns. 1. I am african american and I am wondering how are african americans received in mexico. Also, I am a muslim so, I am not sure how much a cultural role that will play in mexico. Lastly, I hear the highways are tricky and one can get killed driving past sunset back and forth from california to mexico. Please let me know is it safe to drive or not because the biggest perk is having access to drive back to california anytime.

Thanks.

Sorry if my questions sound stupid, but, a wise man once said, "Yhe only stupid question is one that never ben asked".

Barry A. - 8-27-2007 at 09:21 PM

Welcome to the board.

Wow, I bet two of those questions HAVE never been asked, at least on this forum. I have no idea how a Black Muslim would be received in Northern Baja, but I am guessing there would be little hostility, just curiosity. I would not worry about it, and go with the flow with a big grin on your face.

As for the highways in Northern Baja-------lets just say that no highway at night is totally safe, but I am thinking that if you are careful and drive defensively you would have no problems driving back and forth between Mexico and the USA other than the rather long border waits getting into the USA.

Alan - 8-27-2007 at 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie
I was told the Baja Gold Coast is a great place to look into due to it's proximity to the US california.

Many on this board would tell you that is it's biggest detraction. :lol:

I won't attempt to answer your other questions because frankly I have absolutely no idea. When I am down there I am just one more gringo so I have no idea of the mindset of the locals. There are many on this board that are infinitely more qualified to answer those questions.

I'm not sure what you are looking for by just "more affordable pastures". If it is just an extension of California that you seek, the Gold Coast may be what you're looking for. If you are looking for anything more I would suggest a leisurely drive down the peninsula to a least familiarize youself with just some of what it has to offer. I'd hate to see you buy a Yugo just because it is cheap and that had you known you could have gotten a Bentley for the same price.

toneart - 8-27-2007 at 10:49 PM

Hello, Newby and welcome to the BajaNomad Board. Here you will get lots of differing opinions. Mexico is a third world country and if you are not familiar with its culture, it can be very challenging. The rules are different, inconsistantly applied and confusing, until you spend enough time there to learn the customs. Everything moves more slowly. Those who can't cope with that aren't happy. If you get angry or frustrated and show it, that usually works against you.

I cannot accurately answer your question because being an African American Muslim is not my experience. I have not personally witnessed any incidences of racism in Baja nor do I kinow if it exists. Whatever I can say would only be conjecture.

You are talking about staying in the North. I would say you wouldn't receive any negative treatment by Mexicans. There are a lot of people from the U.S.A. living there too. Whatever your experience is where you now live is probably going to be your experience in Baja with the U.S. expatriots and tourists.

I don't think the fact you are Muslim would be an identifying factor. How would anybody know that? I think you would probably find a mosque somewhere in Baja Norte. Have you inquired in your community or done a google search about mosques in Northern Baja?

Driving at night is dangerous! The problems are: extremely narrow roads with no shoulder, livestock and dogs wander or stand in the road and because there is poor to no lighting, you can't see them until it is too late. Many vehicles have dim or no taillights and go very slowly. You can't judge their speed or perhaps not see them at all until it is too late. Signs that give directions are poor or confusing or non-existent. Trucks create the most dangerous driving conditions because they go too fast and if you try to give them room, you could easily find yourself upside down in a pasture or a canyon. If you are on the Tijuana-Ensenada corrider it may be a little easier driving at night.

You said you are looking for more affordable living. That may be possible but it will take some looking. You will probably have to live in a poorer neighborhood in housing you are not used to, or maybe live in a trailer. One thing about money....All citizens of the U.S. and Canada are thought of as rich, even though most of us are not. But by Mexican standards, most of us are better off financially. You will get more respect if you spend money, or are generous with workers. Are you a retiree or I will you be commuting to work in the U.S.? Do you have a job near the border? Do you speak any Spanish? That's a big help.

One last thing....it is less hassle, culturally, if you are male.

Why don't you take a few trips and explore. Talk to people down there. See it for yourself. As you can tell, if you lurk on this board, most of us love it. Come back here often and give us reports.

Von - 8-27-2007 at 11:03 PM

Its safer than San diego and you can drive across 24-7 bud....cheap cheap cheap and we have mexicans that darker than most africans so dont worry about that just smile and everyone will like you thats the secret I know I am mexicano...

xiv015 - 8-28-2007 at 02:02 AM

Look into getting a SENTRI pass if you are planning on moving south of the border.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I cannot accurately answer your question because being an African American Muslim is not my experience.

Hi there, Newbie.....

I've got to say, I'm confused as to why you would bring that question to a board comprised of 98% old white people, most of whom are, if anything at all, Christian. If you belong to a Black, Muslim community, there has to be an informed opinion available there. You have to know that moving into Mexico anywhere is going to fill your life with a new diversity. Why would you ask us? How would we know?
Let me add that, Black, Muslim is good. If it's Black Muslim, don't tell Trump if you decide to buy his property.

meme - 8-28-2007 at 07:53 AM

Welcome Newbie,
Just my 2 cents worth here now.
We live in San Felipe, have a very good friend that is kind of the same situation you are talking about. He is from Jamaica. But many years ago.
But he still has his Jamaican accent!

. I do not know what religion he is actually but I know he is very religious. He is a vey nice man, in his 80's lives alone in his own house. Lives in Eldorado Ranch, in a nice(many affluent people) neighborhood where as far as I know has no other people of his color.This man is treated no differntly than any of the other neighbors. In fact many of the neighbors go out of their way to make sure he is OK & invite him to join in our activities. Tho I do know others in another area (Very Up-scale) of the ranch. All say they are very happy here & treated very well by both Caucasions & Mexicans. I see & socialize with many of these people at many functions here. So I would think you could live here with little or no problems. Many others do not like it in Baja Norte but we have lived here for 10 years vey happily. Met many many nice friendly people, of all races & religions. Yes, you can live cheaper here than in the U.S. but it is getting more costly every year now. The advice you are getting concerning visiting a few times first & talking to people that live here ( not just land sales people)is the VERY BEST advice you can get. So TRY It! You just might like it!!! You are welcome to u2u me or email me if you would like to hear more about San Felipe?
HAGD
meme

fdt - 8-28-2007 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie
I am african american and I am wondering how are african americans received in mexico. Also, I am a muslim so, I am not sure how much a cultural role that will play in mexico.

Hey there newby, welcome to bajanomad. I think that the others can answer you #3 question and there would be many opinions, there you are talking about money. I will try to answer 1 and 2 wich are easyer. First I must tell you that I see that you are using a politicaly correct term, african american, I don't want to be offensive, but you will not encounter that in México, here we do't have a mexico-africano or a americafricano, here you would be a negro, plain and simple and if someone wants refer to you in a cute way, they will call you morenito. I am very, very brown and have been called negro and I have many friends whose nickname is negro, and it is very accepted. People from african descent are not just in the USA, they are all over America, I am refering to the continent and México is not the exception, negros have played an important role in this country and there are many negros in all towns and cities all over the country, in my travels thru out the country I have encountered most negros in the south, I even visited a comunity of negros pigmeos during a surf trip to Oaxaca at Lagunas de Chacagua, . If you do a search for history of black people or negros in México, you will find a wealth of information. In México or all over the spanish speaking cultures a european american is a güero, a chinese american would be a chino, and for that case anyone that looks oriental would be a chino. As for the Muslim part, well there are many many muslims in México, as there are many other religions so for 1 and 2 I would not worry.
Here is an interesting link http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/legacy/almmx....
What i would be concerned about is your handle here, because if you stick arround for some time you wouldn't be a newby

Saludos
Fernando el negro

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I cannot accurately answer your question because being an African American Muslim is not my experience.

I've got to say, I'm confused as to why you would bring that question to a board comprised of 98% old white people, most of whom are, if anything at all, Christian.

Dennis, I must say that it comes as a bit of a surprise to me that this board has been hijacked by a bunch of old white Christians (I've got nothing against them, personally, but I'm not one myself). Anyone else think this is BS? Also, as a few of the other posts indicate, there are people here who do have insightful answers for this guy, and who are capable of providing them in a respectful manner without being condescending.

longlegsinlapaz - 8-28-2007 at 10:37 AM

Totally agree DanO!!! Totally inappropriate post from all perspectives. Crappy way to treat a newbie! I suppose one outta 3 ain't bad.....I'm white, but I ain't old....nor am I Christian!

Diver - 8-28-2007 at 10:47 AM

OK, we need a poll with Nomad ages, sex (or lack there of), nationality, skin tone, religious preference (or lack there of) and while were at it, education level, hobbies or other interests and maybe your favorite drink ?

I'll start;
I'm 51, male (yes), US by way of 4 generations from NE Europe, pale, nothing specific (not raised Christian), multiple college degrees (PE), Baja and moving there, marguaritas on the rocks (but my stomach won't let me).

Anyone else ?? :lol:

Diver - 8-28-2007 at 10:50 AM

Oh by the way, no problems with any colors or religious preferences in Baja in my mind. Baja is a place of acceptance and rebirth for many. You will be judged and treated based on your actions with the people you meet there.

Although I might not push the Jihad thing too far with the old Jewish tourists ! :lol:

.

.

Minnow - 8-28-2007 at 10:53 AM

Longlegs, DanO. Ditto your thoughts. Dennis is just being, well Dennis.

In my humble opinion. IMHO. You will not have any problems due to color or religion. I have driven from Ensenada to the border hundreds of times after dark, and have never had a problem. Be respectful and the people will respect you. It is the white christian a=holes that the Mexicans despise. Don't be mistaken for one of those and you will be OK>

Bajamatic - 8-28-2007 at 10:57 AM

Hi there, [DENNIS].....

I've got to say, I'm confused as to why you would bring that [COMMENT] to a board comprised of 98% [Not Racist people].... If you belong to a [Racist] community, there has to be an informed opinion available there. Why would [tell] us? [Why] would we [care]?

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 11:13 AM

I feel that, if an accurate answer was Newbie's desire, he asked the wrong bunch of people. I knew when I posted that there would be responses from some who evidently think that any question to race or religion is inappropriate, rude and out of place. That is truly your problem with which you infect the world. If more people would discuss their differences, we would have more understanding. We should ask. We should wonder. We shouldn't treat differences as "thin Ice", not to be treaded upon.
Newbie asked the question about joining a part of Mexico, bringing genetic and cultural differences. That was his/her question. Good questions. My feeling is that he/she brought the enquiry to the non-conversant. He asked people who wouldn't know the answers. That was my point.
I didn't bring up race and religion here. Newbie did.

You're off-base with your response, DanO. Some of my best friends are White.

longlegsinlapaz.......Please don't ever think that I would accuse you of being a Christain.

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by BajaNomad]

oldlady - 8-28-2007 at 11:16 AM

I'll 'fess up...

I pretty much fit Dennis's profile....at last I know what it is liked to be profiled.

I had a Spanish teacher at the U. in La Paz last year who stated quite pointedly that Mexcio is a very racist country. I haven't seen a bit of it but certainly did not feel it was appropriate to take issue with her.

Newbie, if you can spend some significant time on the Gold Coast and get the "feel of it" before you commit, is a good way to find out if this is a place that would be comfortable for you.
I was concerned about how Gringos would be treated....wrong issue...no one told me about the dust.

Good luck in your search

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
Totally agree DanO!!! Totally inappropriate post from all perspectives. Crappy way to treat a newbie! I suppose one outta 3 ain't bad.....I'm white, but I ain't old....nor am I Christian!

Good point, Legs. I'll cop to being a white guy, but not old or Christian (not, as Seinfeld would say, that there's anything wrong with that).

Bajamatic - 8-28-2007 at 11:26 AM

oh. I see. I hate to put word into people's mouths, Dennis, but I think the better way to say what you are trying to say is that YOU don't know how to answer that question.

A few others have done a good job offering some good insight. you're insight was to "ask your own kind".

There are other people on this board who do not fall into the 'Old, White, and Grumpy' category, FYI.

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 11:30 AM

Being old, white I still know a little something. Having lived in La Paz for some time and having neighbors, friends that are black I can tell you they are well accepted in the Mexican community, as well as the old white community.(friends meaning plural)

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 11:30 AM

OK Diver, I'll bite----------

I am 70, male, white USA cit. of English descent, pale, interested in almost everything, inactive Christian, 12 years retired/Ranger Pilot, Canadian Whiskey with water and an oz. of lemon/lime soda (which my stomach loves), Dual BA in Geography/southwest history from San Diego State, and avidly interested in Baja and the outdoors.

I guess this puts me in the WM old-fart camp, but I don't feel old. :lol:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 11:42 AM

B-matic..........

Good for you. You got it. I don't know how to answer the questions. Niether do you. Let's have a show of hands
[a] How many Blacks here
How many Muslims
[c] How many Whites who think they have what it takes to understand a question that only a Black man or a Muslim would comprehend

Nobody here has done a good job of answering his questions but, you're right again. If he wants good answers, he should ask people who fully understand the question. How did you put it? Ask people of his own kind?
Yeah.....That's what you said.
"Old, White and Grumpy".......... I'm two of the three. You pick'em.

how would I have known that?

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I cannot accurately answer your question because being an African American Muslim is not my experience.

Um how do I know what race and religion you are here? It is my first post and someone reccomended me to ask questions here. I am not part of a "black" muslim community. The faith that I belive has no color, but. others may see things different. It just so happens I am black. I thought it would be a good idea to ask on a forum full of people that are actually living in mexico. Maybe I was wrong?

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 11:45 AM

I don't know how I started getting the heavy print. Must have been when I slammed my beer into the keybord. Since we were talking about Black, I just didn't want anybody to think it was a statement.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie
Maybe I was wrong?

No, Newbie, you weren't wrong. You're the one who brought color and spiritual commitment to this forum. All of your questions were good. I just feel you asked them to the wrong audience.
You're making me wonder........

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 11:52 AM

I have to respond to Dennis even though I know you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Hey, I'll be one someday, and I won't want anyone teaching me anything.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISI feel that, if an accurate answer was Newbie's desire, he asked the wrong bunch of people.

Um, no he didn't. The posters above may not have had all the answers, but they did have at least some. I'll bet there are more lurkers with more answers. And accuracy, it would seem from the posts, is a fairly subjective concept, which makes sense given the subject matter.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISI knew when I posted that there would be responses from some who evidently think that any question to race or religion is inappropriate, rude and out of place. That is truly your problem with which you infect the world.

Wow. I sure hope there's an antidote for whatever you think it is that I infected everyone with. However, my point wasn't that Newbie's question about how his race and religion are treated in BCN was inappropriate or out of place. I did, however, find parts of your response to be disrespectful. But, as Minnow aptly put it, that's just you being you, old dog.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISIf more people would discuss their differences, we would have more understanding. We should ask. We should wonder. We shouldn't treat differences as "thin Ice", not to be treaded upon.

Good point. I couldn't agree more. But it's a dialogue, one that can and should be conducted in a respectful manner. Responding to his questions with "how would we old crackers know?" is not a dialogue -- it's a brush off. And I don't really know what to make of the Trump comment.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISNewbie asked the question about joining a part of Mexico, bringing genetic and cultural differences. That was his/her question. Good questions. My feeling is that he/she brought the enquiry to the non-conversant. He asked people who wouldn't know the answers. That was my point.

Wrong. See above.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISI didn't bring up race and religion here. Newbie did.

Indeed. And you responded in your own curmudgeonly (no insult to The Sculpin intended) way by effectively telling him to buzz off.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISYou're off-base with your response, DanO. Some of my best friends are White.

Mine too, including myself. But, as the posts above demonstrate, white people are quite capable of learning things about people who aren't the same color, or religion.

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

I don't think the fact you are Muslim would be an identifying factor. How would anybody know that? I think you would probably find a mosque somewhere in Baja Norte. Have you inquired in your community or done a google search about mosques in Northern Baja?

Are you a retiree or I will you be commuting to work in the U.S.? Do you have a job near the border? Do you speak any Spanish? That's a big help.

The Identifying factor maybe the beard on my face. As far as mosques I do know there are some in mexico, however, I am not sure about the location. I probably will be communiting to San Diego as I haven't totally set up the logistics of living in mexico. My desire is to buy/build an affordable home which seems too expensive in Southern California. Also, I will take several trips to mexico prior to making a firm decision. Perhaps I'll rent for several months.

Thanks for the input it is helpful.

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie
Maybe I was wrong?

Newbie, just ignore him. Keep watching this thread. You'll get plenty of helpful information from people who do actually have some answers.

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 11:58 AM

Newbie-----

Whoever recommended that you ask your questions about Baja on this forum got it right----------but Dennis is probably partially right in that these were tough questions for some of us to answer, even tho some tried. I think there were some useful answers, but the truth is that this is a pretty new situation and most of us DON'T have accurate answers for you. Keep trying, and don't get discouraged, but practical experience gained by visiting Mexico will reveal the best answers to your questions, as some have suggested.

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

oldlady - 8-28-2007 at 12:08 PM

Newbie,
I certainly don't think you were wrong. There is a great deal of experience on this board. I have learned a lot from the members. However, as with many things, subjective opinions can be "colored" by the experiences of whomever profers the opinion. A Muslim, who also happens to be African American might have had different experiences Mexico differently than I.

Personally I think you would be welcome here....on the other hand I have a way of teeing people off and there are days when I am sure I am not welcome here, but that is by other Anglo Americans. My Mexican friends put up with me quite well.

oldlady - 8-28-2007 at 12:10 PM

Larry....Yeah, I did.....let's not go there.

Paula - 8-28-2007 at 12:15 PM

newbie, I've never seen or heard of any sort of racial or religious discrimination in Loreto. I' haven't spent much time in northern Baja, but I would guess it is as open as the southern state.

Dennis, I've already picked on you enough this week, so I'm letting this one slide. :biggrin:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paula

Dennis, I've already picked on you enough this week, so I'm letting this one slide. :biggrin:

Thanks. The last bout is still a little ouchy.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
And I don't really know what to make of the Trump comment.

quote]
Black Muslims? Nation of Islam? Malcom X? Elijah Muhammad? Louis Farakhan?
Probably not on the Donald's preferred tenant list.

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 12:30 PM

Thanks to all:

I truly feel like I am being helped on this board and based on the forum answers it appears that living in mexico wouldn't present a problem. I will continue to "spy" on the forum threads and read silently as I don't have anything to contribute being new to this forum :no:

. Whoever created this forum did a great job and have created a great community of people.

Thanks so much.

Minnow - 8-28-2007 at 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie Also, I will take several trips to mexico prior to making a firm decision. Perhaps I'll rent for several months.

Thanks for the input it is helpful.

I would like to suggest Lomas Del Mar. Just west of La Joya, on the La Bufadora Highway.

This place has BEAUTIFUL views, and you can rent there for less than 300.00 per month. The best deal in the area.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
I would like to suggest Lomas Del Mar. Just west of La Joya, on the La Bufadora Highway.

This place has BEAUTIFUL views, and you can rent there for less than 300.00 per month. The best deal in the area.

Half price if youwear a ski mask when doing an application.

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

quote]
Black Muslims? Nation of Islam? Malcom X? Elijah Muhammad? Louis Farakhan?
Probably not on the Donald's preferred tenant list.

Probably not and that is not the part of islam I am a part of. Ignorance is bliss. If you rent the malcom x movie you can see that even malcolm realized he was following the wrong thing. When he went to mecca is when he became enlightend. Malik el-hajj Shabazz...The world still has alot to learn about islam sheesh.

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by newbie]

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 12:40 PM

That's why we ask. That's why you asked. I'm glad you did. I wish all of us here knew Islam in one way or the other. We, most of us, don't. That was my point all along. Hope you didn't take offense.

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Hope you didn't take offense.

Not at all Dennis not at all. Glad we could add some closer to this miscommunication :spingrin:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO
I have to respond to Dennis even though I know you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Hey, I'll be one someday, and I won't want anyone teaching me anything.

Don't worry.

longlegsinlapaz - 8-28-2007 at 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I feel that, if an accurate answer was Newbie's desire, he asked the wrong bunch of people. I knew when I posted that there would be responses from some who evidently think that any question to race or religion is inappropriate, rude and out of place. That is truly your problem with which you infect the world. If more people would discuss their differences, we would have more understanding. We should ask. We should wonder. We shouldn't treat differences as "thin Ice", not to be treaded upon.
Newbie asked the question about joining a part of Mexico, bringing genetic and cultural differences. That was his/her question. Good questions. My feeling is that he/she brought the enquiry to the non-conversant. He asked people who wouldn't know the answers. That was my point.
I didn't bring up race and religion here. Newbie did.

You're off-base with your response, DanO. Some of my best friends are White.

Carol.......Please don't ever think that I would accuse you of being a Christain.

Obviously because Newbie has received a lot of input responding directly to his questions, you were mistaken in "I feel that, if an accurate answer was Newbie's desire, he asked the wrong bunch of people." Where is it written that someone would have to be black or Muslim to have viable input to respond to Newbie's questions? Do you honestly feel that no Nomad knows or associates with people of other races or religions that their own?? Newbie wasn't wrong in asking a race/religion related question, your response is what I felt was inappropriate! And obviously others besides me felt that way as well.

And just as obviously, since Newbie has received some information that he was looking for when he posted his questions, then you must just be too insensitive to "get it" or understand what you said or how you said it might be offensive....but you obviously didn't miss the fact that many DID take offense at your response. By trying to dig out from under, you only bury yourself worse! I'd suggest that you re-read your posts before you hit the send button, but if you still don't see where you went wrong; on this thread; by this time, re-reading before you post probably wouldn't make any difference. It seems like the Pacifico does a lot of talking on your behalf.

For the record, I don't give a rat's ass what you do or don't think of me! My friends of all races & all religions like me just fine! It's their respect I care about!

What's the big deal?

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 01:15 PM

Because when you enter race, religion and politics publicly you are guaranteed an audience. It's no different here.
I must have missed something after 9-11. Can any one of you(save Newbie) tell that racial profiling isn't common and prevalant here in the good ol' USA? It may not be appropriate and it may not be fair or equal but Muslims (and Mexicans) are under the proverbial microscope. Don't ask why.
With that said, I too am a bit curious why color and race would be a focal point of your investigation. Are religion and color primary factors regarding your potential move? Is there a fear you possess aside from dangerous roads?
Personally, I think you should do some serious investigation if your worries center around skin color and religious preference. Announcing that info here is guaranteed to propagate racial feelings whether they support you or not. Your actual concerns are probably moot in Baja. It's the ol white guys(from Arizona) you gotta watch out for.

Take a trip and leave that stuff behind. I think you'll find Mexicans(unlike many gringos) are pretty receptive.... given the chance.

Don't worry.....be happy(er...friendly)!

osoflojo - 8-28-2007 at 01:18 PM

Hey newbie, all the other stuff aside you are on the right track. Go for it, get yourself a place for a few months and see for yourself. I do not think you will be disappointed.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Announcing that info here is guaranteed to propagate racial feelings whether they support you or not.

You're right, Sharky but, I hope my comments weren't seen as racial just because I talked about them.
Again, my comments were about the audience, us, who are incapable of understanding Newbie's question. It wasn't racially inspired at all. I never once called a bunch of old white people, stupid or anything like that.
Newbie and I have said our peace so, anything else forthcoming is, well, forthcoming.
Thanks Sharky.

Jeezo.....Sounds like some old fish-wife bellowing up there. Is she alright? Could somebody check on her? Maybe the eclipse changed her hormones. I guess that always takes a while to get used to.

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by DENNIS]

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 01:49 PM

Dennis, you zeroed in on the same keywords I saw.

ie; Muslim, cultural, African-American

Nothing at all wrong with Newbies curiosity but I think it leads the reader in a controversial direction. Completely NORMAL here. :rolleyes:

oldhippie - 8-28-2007 at 01:56 PM

newbie,

Take a look around Playas de Tijuana. A hop, skip, and jump from San Diego. Many rentals and houses to buy at about 1/3 San Diego prices.

Fully self-contained - restaurants, banks, grocery stores, movie theaters, etc. It's a well maintained upper middle class, Mexican, beach-side neighborhood.

And, thankfully, very few crazy gringos around.

Use the U2U feature of this website if you want more info.

JESSE - 8-28-2007 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie
Hello:

I have been contemplating leaving the US for more affordable pastures. I am still in the begginning stages of this so please bare with me. I was told the Baja Gold Coast is a great place to look into due to it's proximity to the US california. However, I do have a couple of concerns. 1. I am african american and I am wondering how are african americans received in mexico. Also, I am a muslim so, I am not sure how much a cultural role that will play in mexico. Lastly, I hear the highways are tricky and one can get killed driving past sunset back and forth from california to mexico. Please let me know is it safe to drive or not because the biggest perk is having access to drive back to california anytime.

Thanks.

Sorry if my questions sound stupid, but, a wise man once said, "Yhe only stupid question is one that never ben asked".

I am Mexican, lived most of my life in the coastal communities of northern Baja, so i think i can offer some insight.

There are Blacks living in the area, not many, but theres a few here and there, and from what i can see, nobody bothers them. Some have Mexican gilfriends and nobody cares, so you shouldnt have anything to worry about. As far as the muslim issue is concerned, i woud keep that to myself in the privacy of my home. If word gets around that your a muslim, trust me, regardless of all the supposedly problems betwen Mexican and American authorities, when it comes to terrorism, Mexicans are just as quick to react to any perceived treat. And they will pay very close attention to you wich is something you do not want.

As far as the traffic is concerned, ask some of the people that live in the area and have to go to the US very often.

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 02:23 PM

Dennis

In your first post you make an assumption that this forum is 98% OLD White and if anything Christian I don't know why you didn't also add senile because that is the underlying feeling I get. You seem to have some protectors for your Foot in Mouth disease but the only cure is SILENCE.

JESSE - 8-28-2007 at 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Dennis

In your first post you make an assumption that this forum is 98% OLD White and if anything Christian I don't know why you didn't also add senile because that is the underlying feeling I get. You seem to have some protectors for your Foot in Mouth disease but the only cure is SILENCE.

Cypress - 8-28-2007 at 02:45 PM

newbie. Good to have you.

toneart - 8-28-2007 at 02:49 PM

Profile:

Toneart is not old! He stopped celebrating birthdays because he lost count. So...............he didn't age.

Toneart is not white. He is transparent. That's why he has an avitar to represent him. Only his dog knows where he is or where he's "coming from".

Toneart is not religious. Religious dogma can get you killed.
He wears his non-religion on his sleeve, but you cannot see it because you cannot see him.

Toneart is a stateless being from another planet. He is not nationalistic. He never gets seated on juries because he is informed and has opinions. He has no peer group. He thinks humans are stupid because they start wars and then can't stop.

Toneart has no minor vices.

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 02:52 PM

Toneart is a robot. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 8-28-2007 at 02:52 PM

Newbie: I am sure that you have had the chance to see the Reactions from the Posters on this board- Good and Bad!

This from an Ole Timer in Baja Sur, White, Christian, well experienced in Life being 76 years young with 38 years on the Sea of Corez around Loreto.
Being Black: I never observed any discrimination in my years.
Many years ago there was a Platoon of Black Soldiers stationed at La Paz-Some of their descendents where around Mulege.

Being Muslim: That is your Personal business!

As you can see there are many on this board,some who have never been to Baja, who just like to cause Trouble and Beat their Gums.
The ones who attach Christians are the Weak Minded who do not have the Ability to like anything other than themselves.

Go to Baja Sur, look around, if you feel uncomfortable, then try La Paz, stay away from Baja Norte. Be yourself, Be Happy and know that several Posters are Still Little Children and may never grow up to be Knowledgeable or Respectable.

Skeet/Loreto

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 02:52 PM

toneart should add:

Toneart has a good sense of humor, ------------for a spirit. :lol:

toneart - 8-28-2007 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
toneart should add:

Toneart has a good sense of humor, ------------for a spirit. :lol:

What is a sense of humor :?:

newbie - 8-28-2007 at 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

With that said, I too am a bit curious why color and race would be a focal point of your investigation. Are religion and color primary factors regarding your potential move? Is there a fear you possess aside from dangerous roads?

Well I think personally that a move to a foreign land can be frightening. A different language, a different government, and a different culture of people. I think one should know how they will be treated especially when you hold a certain religious belief and look a certain color. I would think I'd be a fool not to address the major issues first, (i.e. Will I be welcomed with open arms in another country). Once that is assessed then I can move on to cost of living, infrasturcture, etc,etc.....Some questions have already been answered through googling and the like. However, the question about skin color and religion I haven't found. I think that this forum has done a fantastic job of answering those questions and I am thankful for everyone who participated.
By the way, I didnt mean to stir anything. I had no idea what was going to happen when I wrote my question. I just felt it neccessary to be answered.

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 03:28 PM

Very well said, Newbie----------you are a fantastic addition to this board, I think.

barry

Barry A. - 8-28-2007 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

What is a sense of humor :?:

The ability to make others (me?) laugh, in this case. :bounce:

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
toneart should add:

Toneart has a good sense of humor, ------------for a spirit. :lol:

What is a sense of humor :?:

You sly dog, er :lol:

robot!

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 04:09 PM

Ya know? Thats the problem with this place. I carry on in a contentious thread which proves me right and nobody says anything. When I'm wrong, you jump my stuff. Maybe it isn't a problem. Maybe it's a challenge.

OK. It's on. Lets do it. Devil's Advocate I will be till I'm removed.

woody with a view - 8-28-2007 at 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Ya know? Thats the problem with this place. I carry on in a contentious thread which proves me right and nobody says anything. When I'm wrong, you jump my stuff. Maybe it isn't a problem. Maybe it's a challenge.

OK. It's on. Lets do it. Devil's Advocate I will be till I'm removed.

new handle "devil's advocate". give 'em hell Dennis. :fire:

Bienvenido Newbie

tortuga - 8-28-2007 at 04:12 PM

I think you will be fine. I would be careful driving at night though . There are lots of people from the states living over the border from what I've heard so it's working for them .Whatever you do God bless You in it .
Tortuga :bounce:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 04:13 PM

Don't think I won't.

DianaT - 8-28-2007 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Don't think I won't.

Dennis,
Logout, take a break, and set up your drums on your front porch and pound on them for a while. :yes:

In fact put a few holes in them so they can't move anywhere. :lol:

Diane

tortuga - 8-28-2007 at 04:18 PM

Amigo ,Tu no eres un Diablo.: :saint:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

i]Originally posted by jdtrotter

Diane

Thanks

Hook - 8-28-2007 at 04:24 PM

I was just wondering how much racism honkies with money would experience in Mexico, anyway?

Scam attempts for their money?: yes. Overt racial discrimination that they might be able to recognize? Probably not much.

I have also read that Mexico is a pretty racist country, with respect to their indigenous populations as well as immigrants from Central America.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I was just wondering how much racism honkies with money would experience in Mexico, anyway?

He probably wouldn't know if he considered himself a "honkey" as you say. He will have already given up his self respect if he accepted that label.

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 04:42 PM

Dennis

This post makes no sense at all, it might be nice to clarify it. In the first place you talk of a contentious thread that proves you right, are you referring to this thread or just one of your previous threads. Or are you admitting that you are wrong in this thread, and if that is the case you don't expect people to jump on you? because I know that is what you would do.

Quote:

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 04:55 PM

Racism in Mexico is a cultural trait. Those who are in the sphere of the Chilango culture, dislike Blacks. That culture spreads throughout the country. If you get to know the Mexicans, most will tell you of their dislike for Blacks. It's practically a moot point since most Mexicans have never had to be around Blacks. But, the negative feelings exist.
I've always thought that people need something, or somebody to hate, just to justify their own misery.

toneart - 8-28-2007 at 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbie

Quote:

Newby

You are making a plan. It looks like you are very methodical and analytic. Fortunately, this website is included in your research, and perhaps even more fortunately, it is only a small contribution to your total search. Nothing beats firsthand experience, so go and taste it. The consensus here seems to say, you'll like it and you'll do fine.

A lot of "newbys' post on this board for the first time and instantly feel the heat. It is intensive, for sure. Don't worry about stirring things up. These hornets were already stirred up and just waiting for the next target. You have handled the heat well. That tells me that Baja will be a piece of cake for you. Do it!....and enjoy. :bounce:

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 04:59 PM

Well Dennis it looks like you are going to work already, I would question your astute knowledge in the above statement but you are just in your new role already.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Dennis

This post makes no sense at all, it might be nice to clarify it. In the first place you talk of a contentious thread that proves you right, are you referring to this thread or just one of your previous threads. Or are you admitting that you are wrong in this thread, and if that is the case you don't expect people to jump on you? because I know that is what you would do.

quote]
Wow. Talk about making no sense. What are you trying to say, Wiley?

Hook - 8-28-2007 at 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I was just wondering how much racism honkies with money would experience in Mexico, anyway?

He probably wouldn't know if he considered himself a "honkey" as you say. He will have already given up his self respect if he accepted that label.

Well, I use the term HONKY to describe any white, including myself. I also accept the use of the term GRINGO in describing myself, although some feel it is derogatory.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Well, I use the term HONKY to describe any white, including myself. I also accept the use of the term GRINGO in describing myself, although some feel it is derogatory.

They're both derogatory. It's shameful that any person with national pride would accept either. Gringo has become acceptible from over-use by gringos but, if a white man ever called me a honkey, I'd punch a hole in his face.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 05:34 PM

Good nite.

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 05:34 PM

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 05:36 PM

Well, I'll stay up if you want to talk about it, Wiley.

comitan - 8-28-2007 at 05:46 PM

Sorry you don't understand I gave it my best.

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISI carry on in a contentious thread which proves me right and nobody says anything. When I'm wrong, you jump my stuff.

Well, duh. I seldom disagree with people who I think are right, and often disagree with people who I think are wrong.

DanO - 8-28-2007 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISRacism in Mexico is a cultural trait. Those who are in the sphere of the Chilango culture, dislike Blacks. That culture spreads throughout the country. If you get to know the Mexicans, most will tell you of their dislike for Blacks. It's practically a moot point since most Mexicans have never had to be around Blacks. But, the negative feelings exist.
I've always thought that people need something, or somebody to hate, just to justify their own misery.

Alrighty then, we've officially moved into Orwellian territory here. Remember this from your first post on this thread?

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNISI've got to say, I'm confused as to why you would bring that question to a board comprised of 98% old white people, most of whom are, if anything at all, Christian. If you belong to a Black, Muslim community, there has to be an informed opinion available there. You have to know that moving into Mexico anywhere is going to fill your life with a new diversity. Why would you ask us? How would we know?

First you tell the guy to go somewhere else because no one around these parts could possibly have an answer to his question, and then you proceed to concisely provide one. Huh?

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 07:35 PM

Mexico City elitism.

JESSE - 8-28-2007 at 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Racism in Mexico is a cultural trait. Those who are in the sphere of the Chilango culture, dislike Blacks. That culture spreads throughout the country. If you get to know the Mexicans, most will tell you of their dislike for Blacks. It's practically a moot point since most Mexicans have never had to be around Blacks. But, the negative feelings exist.
I've always thought that people need something, or somebody to hate, just to justify their own misery.

Chilango culture? now your an expert on something even i don't fully understand? your not only wrong, but way way out there in your opinions.

Whats wrong with you?

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DanO

First you tell the guy to go somewhere else because no one around these parts could possibly have an answer to his question, and then you proceed to concisely provide one. Huh?

Thanks for the "concise"part. It was just an effort to do what you're incapable of doing, carry on a dialog. Now, as is your technique in arguementation, you can wait six hours while you formulate a snappy observation and give us all a stale reply.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Chilango culture? now your an expert on something even i don't fully understand? your not only wrong, but way way out there in your opinions.

Whats wrong with you?

You, at this moment. You understand what I said and if you don't, how do you know that I'm wrong?

woody with a view - 8-28-2007 at 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Chilango culture? now your an expert on something even i don't fully understand? your not only wrong, but way way out there in your opinions.

Whats wrong with you?

You, at this moment. You understand what I said and if you don't, how do you know that I'm wrong?

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Are you saying that Chilangos are more racist than, say, native BajaCalifornianos?

Yes. Elitism takes that profile as well as others. I think you know this.

JESSE - 8-28-2007 at 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Chilango culture? now your an expert on something even i don't fully understand? your not only wrong, but way way out there in your opinions.

Whats wrong with you?

You, at this moment. You understand what I said and if you don't, how do you know that I'm wrong?

Because clearly, your one of the last people on this board that i would consider an expert or a reasonable and honest voice concerning Mexican issues.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 08:14 PM

Too bad your arguement has disolved to that point but, it puts us on a level field.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 08:24 PM

You may be confusing protectionism with elitism.

JUST DO IT MAN!

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 08:56 PM

I would be the last person to call myself an expert on sociointegration or any aspect of racism and the demographics associated with Mexicans in Mexico. That doesn't mean I've not heard derogatory and downright racist comments from Mexicans. This post has opened Pandoras' Box. Does anyone really want to disguss the prevalent attitude exhibited by many towards Muslims and or Blacks. We've all seen the satirical cartoons featuring young Blacks. This is accepted in Mexico and would be called something a bit stronger here.
A number of folks of Mexican descent have volunteered their opinion during private conversation. It is just like America. Some like others regardless of race,color,orientation or religion. Others do not, and inherently despise other groups. I had a friend that hated all kinds of groups. What a generous person he could be to folks he liked. What an arsehole he could also be to anyone who didn't fit. As he got older his tolerance never faltered. Our friendship did however.

Newbie, you seem to have some guts. Get down to Baja and start eating tacos. A sure way to discover Mexico. I doubt even if some don't like you chances are you'll never meet them on your visits. Just like here.

DENNIS - 8-28-2007 at 09:17 PM

Good ideas Sharky. Get involved with life in Mexico. Quit worrying about things that have probably never happened. Be yourself.
One thing though, when you see a restaurant that sells carnitas, don't eat there. It'll cancel your ticket to heaven.

toneart - 8-28-2007 at 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Chilango culture? now your an expert on something even i don't fully understand? your not only wrong, but way way out there in your opinions.

Whats wrong with you?

You, at this moment. You understand what I said and if you don't, how do you know that I'm wrong?

Because clearly, your one of the last people on this board that i would consider an expert or a reasonable and honest voice concerning Mexican issues.

No no no!
Jesse,
I'm the one who isn't an expert on anything (see below)

armchair professors

Sharksbaja - 8-28-2007 at 09:35 PM

so we're all robots then? :lol:

Seriously tho Mr Newbie, methinks ifn' you don't bring problems upon yourself you will have lots of fun. But stand on a barstool and with a tequila bottle and shout your message......well, that could be bad.

Hmmmmmmm??? Did that come out right? :lol:

(edited for added text)

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by Sharksbaja]

motoged - 8-28-2007 at 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

Newbie, you seem to have some guts. Get down to Baja and start eating tacos. .

Sharks,
A great suggestion, as they don't mind who eats them.

Newbie...be careful....some of the tastier tacos are pork.....I have worked this out with my conscience and my Jewish heritage....and like the shrimp best of all.

This thread has certainly touched a nerve....I didn't know if the original post by Newbie was for real or not....still don't, but the reactions are entertaining.

Perhaps Newbie enjoys fishing :lol:

Some of the old white Arizona Christians could take him out to wet a line sometime....or some Nomad surfer who doesn't have his rashguard in a knot around his huevos since Dave gave up a well-mapped secret spot could show Newbie where the best sets are....

It is risky to join a forum with comments about race, religion, and politics when the forum consists of unknown factors....

Newbie....best bet is to travel and form your own opinions....

Peloncito - 8-28-2007 at 11:11 PM

Welcome Newbie. I, myself am a newbie ( I guess I have been bumped up to a junior nomad, whooohooo). I know a lot of AMERICANS of all different races and religions that decided to move/live in northern Baja and they love it. Someone once told me "the only stupid questions that exist are those that you keep in your head and never ask!" So, good for you to ask your questions here at a forum containing many members with years of knowledge about Baja. Take advantage of their info, I do.

BTW, 42 year old, male, caucasion, catholic, surfer born and raised in So Cal, now living in Nor Cal......

[Edited on 8-29-2007 by Peloncito]

DanO - 8-29-2007 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Technique? Actually, it's my job, which inconveniently prevents me from being glued to the internet 24/7. I log in from time to time to monitor the board. My snappy (thank you for the compliment) observations don't take too long to formulate. I send 'em almost as fast as I can type 'em, fresh out of the oven, but I do try to put a little thought in my recipes and I take a deep breath before hitting the post reply key. Does that make those piping hot posts stale? Hardly. My hope is that it helps to prevent kneejerk, ill-considered, illogical and insulting responses, not to mention spelling errors and poor syntax. Not that anyone in this neighborhood is ever guilty of that. :lol:

As for who is incapable of dialog, if I were operating at a high snark level I might suggest that Mr. Pot should meet Mr. Kettle. However, going back to the Amigo days and ever since, I have tried (successfully, for the most part) to abstain from these sorts of snarky volleys. I realize from other threads that once you stake out a position, you are more often than not intractable. And as I said more than once during the J.R. period (a golden age of snark if ever there was one), it is certainly the prerogative of every poster to say what's on his or her mind, free from censorship. I think we've both accomplished that on this thread, and I see little benefit to hijacking it any further.

Gnome-ad - 8-29-2007 at 04:53 PM

I went to bed thinking about Newbie (welcome!!) and his questions for the board. Since I am not Mexican, Black nor Muslim, I cannot answer from a personal viewpoint. But it did make me wonder about the questions and in particular think about the fact that racism and religion were both institutionalized in Mexico for quite a long time and those are difficult things to shake off in only a hundred years or so. (Look at the U.S.A.) The Spanish, who ruled here, were even more dogmatic about racism than the colonies to the north at the time. The belief was that only those actually born IN SPAIN, not just of “pure” Spanish blood, were the only people (i.e. men) capable of holding office. These were the gauchupines (please excuse poor spelling). The next in line were those of “pure” blood who were born in New Spain. Then came all the definitions of who one was, derived from parentage, ancestry and percentage of types of “blood” these were made up of with co-responding names for ALL of these many types of people (none of which were respectful). Of course then there were the lowest of the low – the indigenous people who had no standing whatsoever unless they had become Catholic. So when this board talks about “Mexicans”, who is that?

And Spain did not just conquer with armies as we all know. They brought the Catholic church of the time complete with the beloved Inquisition. This is another thing not often mentioned. It was not possible to hold a government job or be powerful if you were not Catholic. It was expedient for many who had been lowly peons to take on this new more powerful religion in order to be able to have power over those who had before held power over them. Do you notice that most places here where you fill out a form (including the doctor’s office, etc.) has a question about religion? Yes, other religions are accepted here these days, but we personally have heard bad “jokes” about Jews from some Mexicans, it seems to test the waters.

Amir has pointed out to me before that when you watch TV here, or go to the bank, or observe the job status of people, it is still a case of the lighter, whiter (Spanish looking) folks being in power and usually the darker the skin, the less power. Luckily the darker skinned Mexicans seem to know how to be good people with good hearts and happy souls. It is also a fact that there were many African slaves brought to New Spain that produced offspring with the local folks. This is not talked about very much … hmmm … maybe it’s because there is racism. I heard somewhere that it is something just now being dealt with by a population that has successfully used denial as a tool to deal with “unpleasant” realities. (Don’t we all?)

I am not saying any of this to be discouraging to Newbie, because I think it is by people being exposed to people that they cure their racist beliefs (conscious or unconscious) and their fear of other religions, though you may want to keep your beliefs in that area as private as possible. Amir has a full beard as well and he has been asked at military checkpoints if he knows Osama. I think it is more of a joke than anything, so learn to joke a bit about your beard if you can. Mexicans can tend to be curious about facial hair that is not a mustache, but it is only curiosity. If you fee compelled to say it is for religious reasons I think you can expect more questions.

So, after all this babbling, I, too, urge you to come down and try Baja. It is a wonderful place where most of the people are “new” to the area whether they are from the mainland, el norte, Europe or wherever. We live in Baja California Sur so I’m not sure about the pace of the northern regions. I would trust oldhippie to lead you straight with his suggestions of places to check out in TJ. Just know that the pace will most likely be slow and feel like wading through honey compared to a few miles north. And try not to think that when the plumber, or whoever you are in need of, doesn’t show up for days on end it’s not because you are black or a Muslim … that’s just the way it is. Patience and kindness is the key and it sounds like you are equipped in that realm.

I wish you all good luck and God’s blessings on your journey.

Gnome-ad

oldlady - 8-29-2007 at 05:04 PM

Gnome....Kudos! Maybe "sleeping on it" is a lesson well refreshed for a lot of us. Nicely done!

Pages: 1 2