BajaNomad - Please take a look

Please take a look

AcuDoc - 9-13-2007 at 09:25 PM

After years on the baja baoards even back to the amigos days I still watch teh board even though I am located in San Carlos now. Here is a post on the San Carlos board of interest to all my baja amigos

No Sniveling
Member

Joined: Wed Oct 26th, 2005
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona USA
Posts: 651
Status: Offline
Mana:
Posted: Wed Sep 12th, 2007 11:13 pm

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Many of you received my email two weeks ago about a request to Gene Kira, (Western Outdoor News, Mexfish.com, co-author of "The Baja Catch") to stop posting pictures of dead billfish hanging from hotel signs. His honest and realistic response was that he has a journalistic duty to post fishing news, good, bad, or otherwise. The photo posted on Mexfish.com (http://mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2007/mfn070827/mfn070827.htm) August 27th showing a 62 pound Blue Marlin, killed and hanging from the sign at Hotel Oasis, Loreto, bothered me so much I felt I had to write to him. Gene agreed to post my concerns over the killing of billfish at the Baja resorts and did so in the Sept. 3rd edition of Mexfish.com (http://mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2007/mfn070903/mfn070903.htm)
Hotel Oasis makes the news again this week with another blue marlin hanging at their "gallows": (http://mexfish.com/mfn/mfn2007/mfn070910/mfn070910.htm).

Please, do what you can to let them know that they will KILL THEIR ONLY LIVELIHOOD if they do not stop killing marlin for a photo shoot. Write to them, and anyone you know that will write to them, and let them know how true big game enthusiasts feel about protecting the resource.

http://www.hoteloasis.com/contact.html

STOP THE KILLING - Take LIVE video - Join the 21st Century! WISE UP!

Sharksbaja - 9-13-2007 at 10:04 PM

Thanks Doc for taking a stand. The good ol' Hemmingway days are over. Big game hunters still abound however. It's the duty of all fishermen to understand their role in preserving certain species or in many cases the brood stock. The machismo associated plays a big part in satisfying the testoterone fix. Practice catch and release, be responsible stewards. Do your homework. Insure these magnificent animals can coexist in this shrinking world.

Osprey - 9-14-2007 at 06:11 AM

As I understand it all 7 of the resorts in this bay have a total "release all billfish" policy for their charter boats. Not all fish are released: some die. Many charter boats drop the dead fish off before docking, come in clean and legal but have some friend in a panga ferry the fish ashore, sell it. Marlin meat is going for just under $5 U.S. a kilo! That's some big bucks for the crew so count on more "badly hooked" fish around here. I'm a reporter for WON now and then but I don't send them pictures of gamefish any longer because it's such a local thing that all my neighbors were encouraged by the process to keep fish, bring them to me to get their picture in the papers. One can't blame the promoters of game fishing -- revenues for this bay alone have a potential for over $10 million dollars a year.

flyfishinPam - 9-14-2007 at 06:27 PM

many years ago I made a decision to stop posting images of dead billfish on my website, bajabigfish.com last year I laid down the law and mandated a policy of no take for billfish which this year I also applied to large roosterfish since we had so many this season. The notake billfish policy has been well received but I have gotten the occasional captain who challenges me on it. I have to deal with that on a case by case basis but if all sides are considered and we believe a captain is taking billfish unnecessarily he will receive no future trips. we´re serious about it.

I visited eastcape right before the storm (henriette) and was disgusted at the gallows at the Spa Buena Vista where I stayed. More disgusted when i saw it being used. If I were in charge of that place the first thing I´d do is knock that down! Yes the old photos are interesting but the release images are WAAAY more interesting!

Cypress - 9-14-2007 at 06:49 PM

AcuDoc, Hope you don't get jumped on for being negative etc. for supporting the conservation of a fish resource.

AcuDoc - 9-14-2007 at 07:47 PM

Cypress
There is nothing negative about trying to promote and maintain the fishery of the Sea of Cortez. Hopefully the resorts and those that make their living from it will see that. It is truely in the interest of everyones, especially theirs, to maintain it.

I've only been doing Baja and the Cortez for 20 years and I've noticed a big difference. I want to be able to bring my grandkids down and they theirs to the wonders of Baja, Mainland and the Cortez. If the fishery isn't taken care of we all will suffer, especially the fishcamps and pangeros. They will have a hard time feeding their families etc.

About a dozen years ago when I went to fish Costa Rica they were saying it is what Baja used to be. For the last few years they are saying Panama is what Costa Rica used to be....where does that leave Baja???

Take care all and take care of the Cortez.

PS I did a clip/paste from No Sniveling from the www.sancarlosmexico.com board. He was the one that brought my attention and others in the San Carlos area about this. Check out this board. It is truely a great one. And as posted the fishery is getting nothing but better in the SC area due to there very strict conservation, self implied rules of catch and release.

Viva Baja...Viva SC

:cool:

Cypress - 9-14-2007 at 08:22 PM

Acudoc Thanks for taking a stand and making your point. :bounce:

I fully agree with you. :bounce:

BajaBruno - 9-14-2007 at 08:41 PM

AcuDoc and Don Jorge, I fuly agree with you both. I also believe that many fish that supposedly "die during the fight" could be successfully revived by towing them alongside the boat at idle for 10 or 15 minutes. I've seen it happen.

Bob and jane - 9-14-2007 at 09:24 PM

I also wish Gene would take a stand. The Oasis just desn't get it. Over and over their posts are of pctures of dorado that can't be more than 3-4 pounds, or people with outrageous numbers of fish. The Oasis comes to mind first, and shouldn't be singled out, as many of his posts show what appears to be more than limit catches.
Hey, fish die during the battle, I think these should be consumed. I'm guilty of wanting to smoke or can some fish, or bring one home for Franco, so I keep some ,Guilty!!, but never near the limits. I agree that billfish should be released.
For what it's worth, that's my take!!!

Roberto - 9-14-2007 at 09:27 PM

Sadly, the truth is that most peopale who go fishing don't give a #$%^ about this stuff. The "gallows" are a point of pride, why else would they be there? They are there because they attract business, plain and simple.

It's a long chain of guilty parties that includes the "fishermen", the "captains", the resorts, etc., etc. all day long. And, it ain't gonna change. And the banning of pictures, the no-take from people like Pam, while honorable and admirable, is a drop in the bucket.

Roberto - 9-14-2007 at 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and jane
Over and over their posts are of pctures of dorado that can't be more than 3-4 pounds

This is NOT a part of the problem - given the reproduction rate and rate of growth.

Quote:

, or people with outrageous numbers of fish.

Now THAT'S a part of the problem. Gringos who go down to fill the coolers (and get back with dogfood), and have pictures taken with a billfish.

AcuDoc - 9-15-2007 at 08:52 AM

Good advice!

David K - 9-15-2007 at 09:24 AM

Thanks for your ideas Doc... without condemning any Nomad.

Perhaps it should be noted that fish taken for eating is different than fishing just for numbers or for billfish that are to get mounted on a wall?

Hope you had a great summer!

David

AcuDoc - 9-15-2007 at 11:44 AM

Hey David

As you know I've been a Noamd for years and on Amigos de Baja before that, still many here like me here when the board first started. I just sit in the wings now as I am in San Carlos.

Still miss and will always love Baja. :cool:

cristobal - 9-15-2007 at 12:54 PM

AcuDoc, Don Jorge ...

I am with you guys 100% ... :spingrin:

Let them go and keep the CORTEZ full of fish. :wow:

Good to see you back posting back again Doc. :bounce:

I've been kinda scarce around here myself. :rolleyes:

Cypress - 9-15-2007 at 04:09 PM

AcuDoc, Don Jorge. :yes:

Cypress - 9-17-2007 at 07:05 AM

Don Jorge Have used a stretcher to bring fish on board to examine etc. for research purposes, would keep water on 'em. :spingrin:

If the fish are placed upside down they're more relaxed.

Had an excellent survival rate. :spingrin:

Osprey - 9-17-2007 at 07:09 AM

Maybe runnin' a brand new game down south. I saw a charter cruiser, boat a small marlin for photos, pitch it over. It went belly up, another hotel boat saw it, picked it up. At $5 bucks a kilo it works out $50 for the shuttle/seller in the panga/pickup truck, $50 each for the captain and the marinero.

Cypress - 9-17-2007 at 07:58 AM

Osprey A new service/business? :?:

Possible name "You kill'em. We haul 'em.".

Skipjack Joe - 9-17-2007 at 01:00 PM

Don Jorge,

Bertrand's marlin probably ain't gonna make it. Perhaps that's your point. Flyfishing for marlin or tuna is really tough on the fish. The equipment (no matter what wt rod) just isn't strong enough to do it quickly enough. These fish come up exhausted. And then to pull them up out of the water like that! I don't think that fish is revivable. You can usually tell when the fish is at hand how successfull things are going to be.

I applaud thee!

Sharksbaja - 9-18-2007 at 01:13 AM

Nice to I know I'm in good company with this topic. Thanks for havin' the guts to voice opposition to this big-money big-head enterprise. There is more going on than you can imagine. Moreover, the long-liners are wreaking havoc with the Norma laws. Although I would like to see a moratorium on ALL billfishing for some period of time, I fear the backlash could/would be twofold. First, the revenues and attraction(not that I care, it might be good) would take a hit.
Second, wherever there is a void or vacuum, the opportunist will fill it.

These animals are to be acknowledged. They represent an upper hierarchy in the food chain. It is only greed and self gratification that drives big-game hunters. The Worlds' best (animals)are at stake all over the planet. She can't give up a whole lot before the scales of nature tip greatly. We already understand the ramifications. Money and greed and narcissium drive the industry. You know ....like hunting other horn-ed creatures.

flyfishinPam - 9-18-2007 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
However, could you please release me before you drag me up over the rail, bruise me, scrape me, suffocate me and dump me back into the frigging water to die!

Keep em in the water, light em up, let em go. I'll duck now.

That image is from my website and I happened to be on the boat and took the picture. when Captain eulogio was landing the fish he was saying repededly "I´m sorry" i have this on video he´s a sweetheart and a great captain. this fish was out of the water for less than two minutes then revived at the side of the boat for about 10 minutes before he struggled free. he was a strong fish when he swam away. It was beautiful.

i realize that our release policy is a "drop in the bucket" and our adherence to limits or less than limits or all out release of catch is not going to ake a difference in the fish populations of TODAY but I believe it will make a difference for TOMORROW because we are setting an example that is being well received and noticed. i just LOVE IT when I hear captains complain of others who take too many, take juvenile fish, take billfish, large roosters and sharks. We have to remember that the commercials who prevailed on the passing of NOM 029 use our over limits, dead billfish, etc photos as ammunition for their arguments and they present them very effectively. so in this instance we are our own enemies and we must realize this.

Cypress - 9-18-2007 at 09:39 AM

Whether it's a commercial boat taking a ton or 10 sports boats taking a ton, the result is the same. :no:

The commercial boats usually do more damage if by-catch is factored in. :no:

backninedan - 9-18-2007 at 10:00 AM

Cypress, long liners are putting one and a half MILLION hooks in the water each day. There is no way in hell that sport boats come close to this.

True that a ton is a ton, but there is just no comparison between the two types of fishing.

Marlin on the "Fly Pole"

Cardon Man - 9-18-2007 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Don Jorge,

Flyfishing for marlin or tuna is really tough on the fish. The equipment (no matter what wt rod) just isn't strong enough to do it quickly enough. These fish come up exhausted.

Hola Skipjack,

I disagree with your statement regarding fly tackle. Todays fly rods and reels are very capable of landing your typical Baja striped marlin every bit as quick as conventional tackle. The x-factor is the skill of the fly angler. It takes some experience to learn how to put sufficient pressure on a big fish with a fly rod. A skilled blue water fly angler, like Grant Hartman in the photo you commented on, can bring a marlin to the boat very quickly indeed. However, there are not many anglers that have that level of experience. Furthermore, most fly anglers are way too hung up on IGFA standards. IGFA places arbitrary guide lines on what is and isn't "legal" in fly fishing. This means most anglers fish no more than 20lb class tippet which leads to fish being played way to softly and for too long in my opinion. In synopsis, the fly tackle is certainly up to the task...it's limited fish fighting skills and light tippet that lead to worn out fish.

Regarding the "hero shots'...I agree that hauling a billfish over the gunnel can't possibly be good for the fish. I have no idea what the mortality rate is...perhaps those stats exist somewhere. Those in the sport fishing business are in a tough spot. Clients pay big bucks to fish and those photos are part of what they pay for in their opinion. When I worked as a mate in Central America my skipper would allow only one such photo per day. I think that was a step in the right direction at least.

Roberto - 9-18-2007 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
i realize that our release policy is a "drop in the bucket" and our adherence to limits or less than limits or all out release of catch is not going to ake a difference in the fish populations of TODAY but I believe it will make a difference for TOMORROW because we are setting an example that is being well received and noticed. i just LOVE IT when I hear captains complain of others who take too many, take juvenile fish, take billfish, large roosters and sharks.

I hope you are right, Pam. Nothing would please me more than to be wrong on this one, but I am skeptical. I can imagine the pleasure that hearing those comments from the Mexican captains gives you.

Keep up the good work.

Skipjack Joe - 9-18-2007 at 12:03 PM

Cardon Man,

I thought I read that that was his first fish on a flyrod. Maybe I misread that.

Regarding the rest of your observations. Are you implying that a fish caught on a flyrod can be brought in as fast as conventional tackle? Probably not. I think you're saying that it can be brought fast enough to insure a healthy release based on an anglers skills. Can't argue with that. I'm just saying what I've witnessed from personal experience. Would you agree that few such anglers exist that are either properly equiped or have the skills to bring a tuna in quickly.

I took several groups of fly anglers down to the Punta Arena resort in the late 90's several times (groups of 20 people). That's very common with fly clubs in california, arizona, and nevada. We pursued mainly dorado and yellowfin tuna. There was no problem with dorado. They fight quickly and come in. But tuna. They sound and circle below using their broadside as leverage and are very hard to bring in. What I saw was that by the time these fish are at the surface they virtually can't move a fin. To make matters worse, the flyrod doesn't allow you to bring the fish in to the fish easily without 'high sticking', which easily snaps a rod into three. There are always people who break rods on each trip due to high sticking. So, to avoid breaking the rod you need to wear the fish even further. The 10-15 lb tuna were usually landed in 15 minutes and I felt they were released in good condition. But a 25-30 lb tuna took 45 min to an hour and had virtually no chance.

The problem with high sticking in a panga is that you just can't walk back from the rail far enough to allow the guide to grab the leader or use the gaff. They sometimes try to help by grabing the tip of the rod but that can easily lead to breakage.

So if you know a method for quickly landing a hot fish with a flyrod in a panga then I would certainly be interested in hearing about it. As far as shortening the fight by reducing the arc of the rod and fighting it more from the butt - I am familiar with that. On the other hand, why fish with a flyrod if you're not using it fully and virtually fighting the fish off the reel. I guess I just don't think the flyrod is the proper tool for some gamefish.

I would like to hear your opinion on this.

You might enjoy this. Back when Los Muertos was still called that. The pictures are small by today's standards, however.

http://www.peninsulaflyfishers.org/Fishing_Tales/eastCapeBajaAlbum/baja_fishout.html

[Edited on 9-18-2007 by Skipjack Joe]

Cypress - 9-18-2007 at 01:27 PM

backninedan Good point.

Agree with you.

honda tom - 9-18-2007 at 07:51 PM

ok, so the word for all of you fisherman bashers is ignorant. Untill you can post your thoughts in spanish, on a board that mexican fisherman will read, you should stop wasting your breath.

question..... what exactly happened on the boat that brought in that small marlin? Oh thats right... none of you know! Theres a good chance that it died if the fisherman was using light tackel, like some kind of fly rod. Heavy tackel could have brought a small fish like this in quick, increasing its odds for a live release.

But for all of you that feel so strong about this "injustice", on your next trip to baja. go down to the boat ramp and tell those fellas with the nets and traps how you feel.

It is sooooo funny to read the post of all of you that claim to love baja sooooo much..... but choose to blame all the wrong in baja on gringos, especially those gringos that truly love baja.

You ignorant ones are vacationing and living amongst ones that will rape the ocean and the land for what they need on that day. and you.... such the smart one, will get all over somebody for photographing a fish on the small side of normal.

me. i would have done whatever i could to put that one back. but sometimes it doesnt work out.

Roberto - 9-18-2007 at 07:58 PM

I guess it's time to go home. The genius has spoken. :lol:

Nothing else left to say after THAT piece of wisdom.

[Edited on 9-19-2007 by Roberto]

Don Alley - 9-18-2007 at 08:06 PM

Sometimes a fish can't be released alive. Maybe because of the tackle used, maybe because of a lack of skill or experience, maybe because someone is too quick to pronounce the fish unreleasable, maybe because of where it is hooked, or maybe just bad luck.

I've had fish die on me that I would have prefered to release alive.

But a picture is worth a thousand words, and a dead billfish or roosterfish hanging from a resort's fish gallows, broadcast on fishing sites, tells the wrong story. Regardless of how the fish died. JMO.

honda tom - 9-18-2007 at 08:21 PM

glad i could clear it up for you.

Hanging billfish suck

Sharksbaja - 9-19-2007 at 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
But a picture is worth a thousand words, and a dead billfish or roosterfish hanging from a resort's fish gallows, broadcast on fishing sites, tells the wrong story. Regardless of how the fish died. JMO.

I suppose pictures can be subjective too. What you, I and others see is a travesty but many others would say "it's a beauty!" Hmmm"beautiful dead fish".....just doesn't sound right. :mad:

I doubt there is much info on commercial bycatch of billfish. Logic would say that these "incidental" catches reap a bigger profit. Someone is buying that stuff. We have an active monitoring system in place and hefty punishment for lawbreakers. In Mexico, the seizure and confiscation by the Navy amounts to token busts. It can't be that hard to figure out where these boats off-load.

Osprey - 9-19-2007 at 06:28 AM

When I vacationed at fishing resorts in Baja California I would make sure I hung around the photo gantry, get my picture taken with somebody else's fish hanging up there. The fishermen didn't care, the resorts didn't care and I got my surprise prize back home. I would usually do that the first day, then I could release everything with a big smile on my face for the rest of the week.

honda tom - 9-19-2007 at 07:16 AM

trying to tie a traditional sporting custom (the hanging and photographing of the big one), and unreasonable or irresponsible fishing practices, is way off mark.
sportsman are not the problem! If you dont like to hang fish thats fine, but you are confusing the issue if you try to tie these photos to a decline in fish in the gulf of california.

want to read something crazy?

Google... "the midriff island shark disaster" heres the problem.

my dad turns 75 this year, and has yet to land a marlin. when he does I could use some help for that father son photo.

Cardon Man - 9-19-2007 at 07:32 AM

Hey there Skpjack joe...

Regarding that photo, the guy with the fly rod is a client who did the catching. The other guy is Grant Hartman. Without a doubt one of the most skilled all around anglers you can find, conventional or fly tackle. With his level of experience with a fly rod I would say yes, he can land a striper as fast as most could with conventional tackle. This is a function of well honed skills and good boat handling by the captain. The combination allows for a fast, healthy release. I have seen many sailfish landed in under 10 minutes and striped marlin in under 15. However, I do agree that most fly anglers can't pull that off. That takes a lot of experience.
Now, if you fish heavier tippet than IGFA standard 20lb the speed of release goes up big time in my experience. You can put major heat on a big fish with 30lb tippet. Also, IGFA fly leaders have no more than 12" of 100lb bite tippet. It's tough to leader a billfish with only 12" of 100lb to grab. Either you break the fish off...or wear it down until it's easy to subdue boat side. This is partly why i feel that IGFA is crap.

With regards to tuna....They are brutal to land on the fly. Period. I don't think one should get involved with catching and releasing them. Catch and kill your limit and call it good. Furthermore, who in their right mind wants to catch more than two 25lb or 30lb tuna on a fly in the same session? That's just self abuse! ha ha.

Let's face it...fishing is a blood sport. If one doesn't want to injure fish then catch your limit and quit. And in the case of billfish, take every measure possible to learn how to land them fast and handle them carefully. If this means fishing heavier/longer leader than IGFA so be it.

The heavier/longer leader helps big time in the landing process from a panga. with 30lb it's easier for the skipper or mate to hand line the fish in once it's close enough to the boat. Thereby sparing the high sticking and broken rods.

Skipjack Joe - 9-19-2007 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
Hey there Skpjack joe...

Furthermore, who in their right mind wants to catch more than two 25lb or 30lb tuna on a fly in the same session? That's just self abuse! ha ha.

You're right, it's abuse on both ends of the line. I did that once and felt sick the rest of the day. Didn't want to pick up a rod. Just laid around kind of dazed.

My partner blew his fly reel out on a tuna. The line compressiion was just too much for the reel. Most guys and ladies would land one tuna and tell the guide to fish dorado, roosterfish, or toro (just as tough as tuna, only smaller) the rest of the week.

I've personally never caught marlin on a fly but from those I caught on conventional gear I thought it would be just as hard. Sounds as though I may have been wrong, though.

Hook - 9-20-2007 at 11:35 AM

Honda Tom, I see your point on this, but it's like ignoring small things like switching out incandescent lights for fluorescents to reduce our oil dependence. Yeah, Big Industry is more responsible for consumption, but with a finite resource, you do what you can do.

Besides, with the way longlining is continuing, you have to assume an increasingly shrinking pool of marlin. The effects of the sportfisherman becomes a more significant impact on the marlin left over.........no matter who is most to blame for the decline.

Take it from those of us who have hung marlin and released them as well............the feeling of releasing these magnificent creatures is far superior.

Maybe your pops will understand this and embrace it..........

BTW, to David K and others, you no longer need to have the carcass to have a mount made.

Yeah, it's not the same fish...........

The real one is still swimming and renewing the resource.

DENNIS - 9-20-2007 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
BTW, to David K and others, you no longer need to have the carcass to have a mount made.

Yeah, it's not the same fish...........

The real one is still swimming and renewing the resource.

Or, you can buy a full size Marlin pillow from Cabela's for around twenty bucks. It looks life-like....for a pillow. And, just think.......you don't even have to tear it's guts out and bring it back from the brink of death.

Cabela's.com
They have other fish pillows as well.

Cypress - 9-20-2007 at 12:12 PM

Hook and DENNIS Keep on keeping on, there's a world full of folks that agree with you.

Hook - 9-20-2007 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Actually, Dennis, no fish are injured in the making of these mounts. They are moulds: all artificial ingredients.

Hook - 9-20-2007 at 12:24 PM

Is that pesos or dollars, Ed?

DENNIS - 9-20-2007 at 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Actually, Dennis, no fish are injured in the making of these mounts. They are moulds: all artificial ingredients.

I know but, do they cost more than twenty bucks? :biggrin:

tripledigitken - 9-20-2007 at 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honda tom
ok, so the word for all of you fisherman bashers is ignorant. Untill you can post your thoughts in spanish, on a board that mexican fisherman will read, you should stop wasting your breath.

question..... what exactly happened on the boat that brought in that small marlin? Oh thats right... none of you know! Theres a good chance that it died if the fisherman was using light tackel, like some kind of fly rod. Heavy tackel could have brought a small fish like this in quick, increasing its odds for a live release.

But for all of you that feel so strong about this "injustice", on your next trip to baja. go down to the boat ramp and tell those fellas with the nets and traps how you feel.

It is sooooo funny to read the post of all of you that claim to love baja sooooo much..... but choose to blame all the wrong in baja on gringos, especially those gringos that truly love baja.

You ignorant ones are vacationing and living amongst ones that will rape the ocean and the land for what they need on that day. and you.... such the smart one, will get all over somebody for photographing a fish on the small side of normal.

me. i would have done whatever i could to put that one back. but sometimes it doesnt work out.

This forum, last time I checked, is almost exclusively made up of Gringo's. We can only hope to influence the behavior of our fellow nomads here by talking about these issues. If in turn our example affects others, so be it. I don't think it has to be about blame either. Affect change where you can.

The days of trophy Billfish fishing (hanging with a portrait shot) should be over.

A few years ago while Marlin fishing in Cabo I had to almost fight with the captain to release a healthy Striper that he wanted to bash with a baseball bat. I prevailed but it took conviction to make it happen. Change has happened amongst the Captains with regards to taking Billfish in my experience.

As far as trophy photo op's check out the beautiful shots that Bill on his boat Soledad shoot, in the water just before release.

Ken

Hook - 9-20-2007 at 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Actually, Dennis, no fish are injured in the making of these mounts. They are moulds: all artificial ingredients.

I know but, do they cost more than twenty bucks? :biggrin:

I think I've seen some lead-paint versions from China going for about that.

I cant say whether Chinese laborers were harmed in the making of them, though......... :lol:

Cypress - 9-20-2007 at 01:56 PM

About those hanging fish pics.

Like showing pictures in a slaughter house of beef/pork hanging on the hook? Haven't seen any pictures of chickens being processed? :?:

Dead chickens must not be photogenic, guess dead fish are. Have a dead fish photo or two in my picture album, that was then, this is now. :yes:

DENNIS - 9-20-2007 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Like showing pictures in a slaughter house of beef/pork hanging on the hook?

Some years back, I got into the Ensenada slaughter house with a camera. What a scene. I remember the kill, one at a time as cows in line would walk to the top of an inclined concrete ramp and wait their turn to be shot in the head with a .22 rifle. It would collapse and slide down a ramp to the inside of the building to be processed. Occasionally the bullet would miss it's mark and the cow would go down the ramp kicking and screaming untill the executioner would go below and administer a coup de grace. All of the workers got a big kick out of that. The man with the gun was, for the moment, Ernest Hemingway bringing down big game on the plains in Africa.
For me, although I, of course, was not in Aushwitz, [sp] immagined for the moment that I was. A very ugly scene.

windgrrl - 9-20-2007 at 03:49 PM

Re: sightings of Mr. Hemmingway in Baja

I was quite surprised to see how often Mr. Hemmingway makes an appearance in Baja - season after season. Elvis could take lessons in longevity. While Mr. Hemmingway varies in shape, height and attire from day to day, the costume, beard and cap are relatively conformist with the original version. I have long wondered how he managed to keep living the "life everafter" and get a kick out of nick-naming Ernie according to his latest redux...e.g. short Ernie, romantic Ernie, Ernie with dog, etc. Thank goodness Madonna isn't the icon for the last for the GWHs!

DENNIS - 9-20-2007 at 04:08 PM

If all these Ernie wannabes knew why he stood most of the time, even while typing, they might find someone else to emulate or buy stock in Preperation-H.

windgrrl - 9-20-2007 at 05:00 PM

Bless you Dennis, now I can add hemo-Ernie. Do I have a hernia-Ernie?
:spingrin:

Sharksbaja - 9-20-2007 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
If all these Ernie wannabes knew why he stood most of the time, even while typing, they might find someone else to emulate or buy stock in Preperation-H.

Yah, I heard it was the pay-back of a 500 pounder! :lol:

honda tom - 9-20-2007 at 09:48 PM

its a tradition, its a father son thing, its a sportsman thing, its a male bonding thing. for those that dont understand exactly what that means .... sorry for you , and I dont hold your decision against you. But dont hold your decision against sportsman. Ive let plenty of billfish go. but when I am with a lifelong bud, and he lands his first marlin, were gunna eat it! Catch another on the same trip.... Ill put it back. Sailfish... fun to catch, but bad to eat..... Ill put it back. The sportsman knows the right thing to do. The drop in the bucket, of the man with the pole and the hook, is the wrong target. But it sure seems to be the easy one today.

It's just a cultural thang

Sharksbaja - 9-20-2007 at 11:22 PM

Oh, you mean like the traditional 50 caliber Makah hunts. Not like the Japanese Minke whale research program. I guess it's ok then... :rolleyes:

gibson - 9-21-2007 at 01:06 AM

[Edited on 9-21-2007 by gibson]

Osprey - 9-21-2007 at 06:24 AM

Some of this "hanging billfish picture" stuff can lead to trouble. The Giggling Marlin in Cabo began a tradition of hanging customers up-side-down and taking a gag photo as a promotional thing. It began a long time ago and by now there must be strict rules about ladies and attire. I can almost imagine some of the first portly old goatropers in mumus hanging there looking OH SO grotesque (makes me shiver). Must have been bad press, bad Kharma, nightmares you don't want to revisit -- sorry.

Cypress - 9-21-2007 at 07:34 AM

Guess there're just too many nets, hooks, spears, and who knows what else, chasing fewer and fewer fish. Can we agree that the fish size and #'s are down? :?:

Osprey About those pictures of upside down tourists, they also give 'em a shot of tequila when they hoist 'em up. :tumble:

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by honda tom
its a tradition, its a father son thing, its a sportsman thing, its a male bonding thing.

It's cruel, it's egocentric, domineering, it's pointless unless one is fishing for food.
Admitedly, I don't get it. What is the thrill of hooking a fish that you can't even see and having a tug-of-war only to prove that you spent enough money on the strongest gear? Wouldn't it be the same physical sensation if you hooked up to the bumper of a car and fought it till you're spooled then pulling it back while in neutral? What's the difference?
Oh, yeah, I know one. You don't cause mayhem to the car and for sure, it'll live to be caught another day.
God, this "sport" is so senseless. It would be like deer hunting confined to leg shots.

honda tom - 9-21-2007 at 08:17 AM

i think nets are far more cruel because of the deaths of far more "unwanted" species. and "if", people are hauling in marlin, and not taking the steaks, I think thats wrong. I dont believe that applies to most sportfisherman.

Trying to equate my 8/0 single hook to a 50 cal......... hmmm.

Osprey - 9-21-2007 at 09:32 AM

Dennis, I practice fishing on cars (scooters, quads, pickups) -- I try to match the rod/reel/line to the power/size/speed of the vehicle. I just raise my hand to tell em to stop before I spool out, pay the ten pesos, go on to the next. Believe me, I'm ready for big fish, medium, sick ones, ones on drugs, etc. I don't think you fully appreciate the subtleties of the sport. Sometimes I mis-match on purpose, throw my self the kind of curves nature does sometimes. Why it's possible I could hook a big fish on light tackle, stroke out and die. That's the gamble, that's what makes it a fair fight, we both have a fighting chance. Dennis, come on down, we'll go out and you can fight a big one, find out more about it.

Cypress - 9-21-2007 at 10:19 AM

Fishing is, IMHO, the finest sport :bounce:

From hand lines to $K reels, fishing from shore to high-tech fishing machine, a kid fishing in a pond to professional. Beats the heck out of football, c-ck fighting, golf, tennis, car/boat/bicycle/horse/ motorcycle/etc. races, hunting, pingpong.......... :bounce:

The list of lesser sports is endless.

Cardon Man - 9-21-2007 at 11:54 AM

Here's a bit of info from "Life after Catch and Release"
Marine Fisheries Review, Wntr, 2004 by Jean Cramer

"Pop-up satellite archival tag (PSAT) technology provides an improved tool for evaluating post-release mortality.....
Sixty-one PSAT's attached to striped marlin, Tetrapturus audax, caught with recreational tackle (Domeier and Dewar, 2003) and forty-one PSAT's attached to white marlin caught on recreational gear (Horodysky and Graves, 2005) contained pre-release software. The post-release mortality estimates from these studies : 26.2% for striped marlin and 35% for white marlin caught on straight-shank "J" hooks and 0% for white marlin caught on circle hooks."

That's a pretty damn strong argument for the use of circle hooks. Circle hooks are very rarely used by Baja sportfishing charters. In Cost Rica for example circle hooks are the rule rather than the exception and it seems to promote a healthy billfish population. The bottom line is that "J" hooks are bad news. Anyone who plans on feeding a bait to a fish that is to be released should use nothing but circle hooks.

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honda tom
i think nets are far more cruel because of the deaths of far more "unwanted" species.

Nets are indiscriminate. People arn't. We can't blame the nets.

Skipjack Joe - 9-21-2007 at 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

God, this "sport" is so senseless....

If you feel that way why post it on a fishing board? The board is for those who don't find it 'senseless'. For those who like to fish.

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
I don't think you fully appreciate the subtleties of the sport. Dennis, come on down, we'll go out and you can fight a big one, find out more about it.

Thanks George. You're right, I don't understand anything about it anymore. Mostly, why it's considered a "sport." Would you consider dragging a dog behind a car for a few miles, then letting it go, a sport?
George, I was a commercial fisherman for years. Today, if I knew my younger self, I wouldn't like me. As I age and come to terms with my mortallity, I see value in all life, except flies. I simply don't believe we should be stressing out any species just because we have the power to do so. For me, it's senseless and cruel and self-degrading.
We can add this to the list of our differences but, we know nothing will change. Not me, not you. I hope you keep your lines tight. It may be merciful if the ordeal is quicker.

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

If you feel that way why post it on a fishing board? The board is for those who don't find it 'senseless'. For those who like to fish.

The first post on this thread was way short of being supportive of killing fish. Senseless would apply to the sentiment of the post.

[Edited on 9-21-2007 by DENNIS]

Cypress - 9-21-2007 at 01:50 PM

DENNIS

What was the name of that dude that was fighting windmills?

Skipjack Joe - 9-21-2007 at 02:04 PM

Why not go to the photo gallery forum and tell them you hate cameras?

Why not go to a surfing forum and tell them they're wasting their time? That riding a board is a cheap thrill.

I mean, these forums are set up for people to share info on the subject. There must be people who feel the same way as you do and they share their feelings amongst themselves on boards that are set up for that.

It's like going to the main discussion board and anouncing:

"I HATE BAJA".

All right. That's fine. But why come to a baja site to say that?

That's all I'm trying to get across.

Cypress - 9-21-2007 at 02:28 PM

Leg shots? Pussy hoops?

Jeez!

Got my eyes wide open!

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Why not go to the photo gallery forum and tell them you hate cameras?

Why not go to a surfing forum and tell them they're wasting their time? That riding a board is a cheap thrill.

I mean, these forums are set up for people to share info on the subject. There must be people who feel the same way as you do and they share their feelings amongst themselves on boards that are set up for that.

It's like going to the main discussion board and anouncing:

"I HATE BAJA".

All right. That's fine. But why come to a baja site to say that?

That's all I'm trying to get across.

Really hurtful. That's what you are in defense of your blood-lust "sport."

Go to a foto site with a b-tch about cameras? I love cameras. I also appreciate the artful technology of fishing rods and reels. Why do you confuse the tools with the action? Cameras never took a photo and rods never caught a fish. It's the human behind the tool that makes it work.
And Joe, or whatever, this board is set up for all opinions, not just yours.

Don Jorge....I never said "Kill with a leg shot." I likened that activity with catch'nrelease. A poor comparison for sure but not without value.

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Why not go to a surfing forum and tell them they're wasting their time?

Well, they are wasting their time if they're not doing it on the clock. We learn to manage our time accordingly.

DENNIS - 9-21-2007 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
Maybe when I am an old man like Dennis I will think like Dennis does. In fact that is quite possible.

Go Angles!

Old? Ooooooooh the pain. Seems like last year I was twenty.
Who are the Angles? Is that a ball club playing the Straights? Probably lots if rainbow bunting hanging around.

DENNIS - 9-22-2007 at 08:47 PM

Bump

Sharksbaja - 9-22-2007 at 10:28 PM

Dennis, is there something you can add. I'll have to agree with you about saving certain species from a needless death. It's time for others to grow up as well. Some folks never will just mature.

DENNIS - 9-23-2007 at 09:24 AM

Not now, Sharky. I've pushed it to the limit.

Cypress - 9-23-2007 at 09:58 AM

As operating costs continue to rise and catches decline the number of boats, both commercial and sport will decrease.

But the old adage "10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish" will still be true.

And we're talking about fewer fish.

Pescador - 9-23-2007 at 04:53 PM

Well, all we need to do is send a paid up subscription to Dennis for PETA (Peope Eating Tasty Animals)

DENNIS - 9-23-2007 at 05:47 PM

Thank you. That's very thoughtful. I'm not a vegetarian, I eat tasty animals and love fish. I just don't see any point in torturing them.

Osprey - 9-23-2007 at 05:55 PM

Dennis, the commercial factory ships will eventually kill all of them. Can't we have some fun? Can't you just let us torture them, take our pix, let em go before they are all eaten a little later by kitty cats?

DENNIS - 9-23-2007 at 06:06 PM

Well, I didn't come here to change anybodys mind or behavior. An effort toward that would be ridiculous and futile. I'm here to give my opinion, which I've done. I take responsibility for myself and my actions. That factory ship will eventually be your problem, not mine. If you're so concerned about all the fish going to the cats, why do you throw them back?
Have fun, George.

[Edited on 9-24-2007 by DENNIS]