BajaNomad - Loreto Construction

Loreto Construction

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jk - 9-17-2007 at 04:44 PM

Okay, I haven't been paying too much attention to mention of construction activities in Loreto, but today Iguana Inn just cancelled all reservations for the month of October. Something about the street in front being torn up and sewage drifting toward the malecon. What exactly is going on? What streets are affected? Where now can I get a quiet nights sleep? Thanks for the insights. JK

Marie-Rose - 9-17-2007 at 04:55 PM

I was just coming online because I am so-o-o disappointed

Just found out that we will not be able to stay at the Iguana Inn on the 19th of Oct!!!!!
Does anybody have another recommendation for accomodation that will accept our perros? One suggestion was Gail at Quinta San Francisco but not too crazy about the parking.

Don Alley - 9-17-2007 at 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jk
Okay, I haven't been paying too much attention to mention of construction activities in Loreto, but today Iguana Inn just cancelled all reservations for the month of October. Something about the street in front being torn up and sewage drifting toward the malecon. What exactly is going on? What streets are affected? Where now can I get a quiet nights sleep? Thanks for the insights. JK

[Edited on 9-18-2007 by Don Alley]

J.jpg - 37kB

Russ - 9-17-2007 at 05:22 PM

Holy ****! That is serious! And it'll take a month to fix/repair? Not good. I think I'll put my visit off 'till November.

[Edited on 9-18-2007 by Hose A]

danaeb - 9-17-2007 at 06:22 PM

Well this explains a lot. I'm staying overnight on Oct 20 on the way to La Paz and was having a hard time finding a room anywhere. I was finally able to get a room at Oasis.

jk - 9-17-2007 at 06:44 PM

daneab, did you get something at Oasis for less than US$125? jk

backninedan - 9-17-2007 at 06:47 PM

Russ, at the present rate of construction I would be very surprised if it is done in a month.

danaeb - 9-17-2007 at 06:51 PM

JK - that was the rate I got for a poolside room - beach side was more. At this point I was glad to get anything.

Dana

bajajudy - 9-17-2007 at 07:30 PM

If you have an FM3 Oasis will give you a discount

danaeb - 9-17-2007 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
If you have an FM3 Oasis will give you a discount

Thanks Judy - I do and I'll certainly ask for it. (I mean the discount)

Jig - 9-17-2007 at 08:02 PM

I know that pictures are worth a thousand words, but, I live here and I really don't think it is as bad as the one day picture that is being displayed above. The street is B. Juarez, the same street of the location of the Iguana Inn. Mike and Julie are doing a good job by notifying their customers of the problem. Their street is a mess and probably will be for a couple of weeks or more. They should be commended for cancelling these reservations. Currently the street of Juarez is almost finished down to Madero. The street is going to be stamped concrete from Independencia to the Malecon. The town is naviatable with some detours. The Malecon is open and so are most resturants. Naturally, when they tear up a street and have a hurricane come through the streets are going to be a mess. The sewer did overflow with the heavy rains which it normally does. Right now they are in the process of hooking up the sewer to the remodeled pump station at the Malecon and as the concrete gets done above Independencia it will continue the rest of the way. I'm sure Loreto is doing everything to get the streets ready for the first cruise ship due here in October.
Julie and Mike are showing their responsibility for their guests and I'm sure they don't want their guests to have a unpleasant experience.

jk - 9-18-2007 at 07:33 AM

I commended Mike and Julie in an email to them for their forthrightness in dealing with the problem. And I thank all for the insights. JK

flyfishinPam - 9-18-2007 at 07:34 AM

The hurricane that came through did not come through at all as its center was about 100 miles away from us. henriette produced lettle rain so can´t blame ANY of the MESS that the center of town is in on any weather events and that´s a FACT.

This disaster is man made. I am sorry to post the truth but the powers that be are in over their heads with the problems. Fact is that the sewage lines under Juarez were a huge mess and the ingineros are miffed as to how to solve them.

Nobody mentioned the signs on the only small public beach that say "don´t drink the water" in english and spanish along with an image of a person swimming with a cirels and line through the swimmer. So what kind cryptic message is that? don´t drink the water! hell, ruined my day as I had planned to bottle some and take it home to drink, WTF? In plain language it means don´t swin in the water because the city is dumping raw sewage into the water and contaminating local swimming beaches,. How about the truth at some point?

I also live here and it IS as bad as that one day photo posted above. In fact this has been going on for weeks and it will take weeks to months to repair. That build up of block on top of that pumping station was put there to reduce the horrible smell coming off the thing, crap you would practically choke to death just driving by it it was so bad. Yes they are putting stamped concrete on the streets after years and years of our paying taxes we certainly deserve it but are those water lines and sewage lines going to be set properly I seriously doubt it. I am sorry that Mike and Julie have to lost weeks of business over this, join the club bec ause the rest of Loreto in the town center has lost many many days, weeks and months of business. :mad:

photos below were taken on Saturday afternoon 15 September, 2007. Please realize that with the shoreline properties all being bought up that they are also being fenced off and privitized and there is becoming very little area for the people of town to swim on 110 degree days. Many people do not have cars or boats so can´t easily access remote beaches so this is what they are left with. It is truly a disgrace!

[Edited on 9-18-2007 by flyfishinPam]

[Edited on 9-18-2007 by flyfishinPam]

edinnopolo - 9-18-2007 at 07:59 AM

The structure you see on the right of Don's pic. is the round block wall build around the pump station. Like Pam says, the stink there is horrendous and this is the Mexican way to solve it. Hide it.
Pretty hard to wall-in a stink.

oldhippie - 9-18-2007 at 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edinnopolo
The structure you see on the right of Don's pic. is the round block wall build around the pump station. Like Pam says, the stink there is horrendous and this is the Mexican way to solve it. Hide it.
Pretty hard to wall-in a stink.

The "Mexican way" is due to the lack of funds and perhaps expertise in small towns. King Butterfield should put some money where his mouth is. But, it's still a bit early for the winter marketing blitz. No need to finish repairs before the frostbacks arrive.

Don Alley - 9-18-2007 at 10:24 AM

I'm up in the states right now; I've received several photos from a couple of people in Loreto and have posted a couple, because it's a pain in the neck for some to resize and post photos.

Then I wondered if I should of, and if I talk to much. :rolleyes:

Oh well.

Anyway, I got an email from Julie and she sent more pics from this morning and the lower end of Calle Juarez still looks much the same. Still "water" flowing down through the mud. I'm sure this is tough for Mike and Julie and their new employees, and for the newer bar, hotel, dive shop and restaurant down the street.

I'm optimistic, though, that we'll end up with a great street there. The upper, finished portion of the street looks good with great sidewalks: we could see skateboarders on it!

Hopefully, there will not be a new sewage aquifer underneath, running to the Malecon.

It's a small, isolated town in Mexico, and I don't see how anyone, perhaps excepting some clueless big developers, could expect Loreto to tackle the projects it faces without some significant growing pains. But it's sometimes hard to maintain a detached amusement at the antics of the government officials down there. And that must be impossible if they are putting you out of work. :no:

flyfishinPam - 9-18-2007 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
But it's sometimes hard to maintain a detached amusement at the antics of the government officials down there. And that must be impossible if they are putting you out of work. :no:

tough on business is an understatement. remember when we´re closed we still have to continue paying, employees salaries, social security, infanovit, taxes state fed local, electricity, telephone, banking fees, the list goes on. the hotel owners still are required to pay their employees salaries wether or not they work, they also have to pay their employment taxes. if they choose to lay off their workers it will cost $1K each (Dollars) minimum. to say this is hurting business is a serious understatement made by those who have retired here and are not still making a living trying to feed their families.

wonder how those new condos on the corner of Juarez and malecon will do with thieer view obstructed and that steeeeench?

that is absurd

capt. mike - 9-18-2007 at 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Quote:

Why should LB subsidize city utilities publics works projects?

i was going to say, you wouldn't see this kind of civil works management there. Oh wait..........i see it now....tax the rico developers to pay for the town's infrastructure. Yeah, that's the ticket.....wealth re distribution. That should work, what's another $100K to add to the price of a condo, why the average fat cat buying one could care less........cause he's probably rich.

ok.........i am ready to receive dubious rebounds now. :lol:

elizabeth - 9-18-2007 at 04:32 PM

I don't think this is a dubious rebound...just an observation.

It is not at all unusual, or to my mind, unreasonable for a city, town, etc. to expect a new developer to contribute to the existing infrastructure which they are using...water, sewer, roads, schools, etc. Given the size of the projected LB...which would at the very least double Loreto's population, they should be contributing to repairs and improvements that will be needed because of increased use. Perhaps they are...someone who lives in Loreto full time would likely know.

capt. mike - 9-18-2007 at 04:57 PM

sure, it happens all the time - melo roos taxes and development fees tacked onto the entitlement processes when a project goes before the board of supervisors.

but is LB really in Loreto's city limits/jurisdiction?
and if the intent was for permits fees surcharges they would have been enacted during the approvals processes, the funds would have been impounded into the treasury for disbursement on capital improvements projects as the city sees fit without a special assessments action for things out of an operating budget.

I dunno - maybe LB by decree is or has funded some infrastructure improvements tied to their master plan. but if so the company already made the biz decision to participate. If not - they should have no responsibility beyond the property taxes they are creating for the benefit of all locals.

cajhawk - 9-19-2007 at 12:34 PM

I think you are looking in the wrong direction. The 150 or so homeowners 7 miles away in LB are not deeply impacting the road/street project for the town of Loreto. It may in the future, but it is in the distant future. I think Mr. Butterfield has already "put his money where his mouth is" by donating 1% of ALL revenue from homes to the Loreto Bay Foundation. $800,000 went toward the building of the new hospital in town where the benefit is definitely not for the part time vacationer. The new building at the park was donated as well by labor and materials from LB.

Environmental impact I can understand the argument, but from an economic and 'good neighbor' standpoint I think that LB has gone out of their way. They use the local restaurants instead of keeping everyone cloistered for catered events, they use local taxis instead of a much cheaper bus/shuttle service etc. Local street and sewer mismanagement is not LB's fault, nor should they be the solution IMHO.

elizabeth - 9-19-2007 at 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
I think you are looking in the wrong direction. The 150 or so homeowners 7 miles away in LB are not deeply impacting the road/street project for the town of Loreto. It may in the future, but it is in the distant future. I think Mr. Butterfield has already "put his money where his mouth is" by donating 1% of ALL revenue from homes to the Loreto Bay Foundation. $800,000 went toward the building of the new hospital in town where the benefit is definitely not for the part time vacationer. The new building at the park was donated as well by labor and materials from LB.

Environmental impact I can understand the argument, but from an economic and 'good neighbor' standpoint I think that LB has gone out of their way. They use the local restaurants instead of keeping everyone cloistered for catered events, they use local taxis instead of a much cheaper bus/shuttle service etc. Local street and sewer mismanagement is not LB's fault, nor should they be the solution IMHO.

That was Old Hippie's suggestion that Butterfield should pay. I was responding to Capt Mike's specific question of

"Why should LB subsidize city utilities publics works projects?"

But...cajhawk, I think you should look a little deeper at what the Loreto Bay Foundation is funding. I suggest you read their annual report. And as for the hospital...it's a small amount of money that gives them a better sales pitch for those who ask about health care. How do you know it's not for people who have money to pay? Will they accept the social security patient or the patient with no funds? What's happening with recruiting specialists, which is what Loreto needs, to work in the hospital?

There is a projection of a lot more than 150 residents, not to speak of workers, who will use Loreto streets and do already use Loreto water and sewer.

Just a small thing, but if LB uses local taxis, what are all those LB vans I see transporting people all over town? And if LB uses the local restaurants, etc...then they are in fact using the roads.

Mike is right, things like actual contributions to existing and future infrastructure improvements should have been negotiated at the time the development was proposed. Should probably also have negotiated a percentage of low income housing for Loretanos as well...LB would have then stood some small chance of becoming an authentic Mexican village.

backninedan - 9-19-2007 at 02:58 PM

Cajhawk, are you employed by loreto bay by any chance?

Roberto - 9-19-2007 at 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth
I don't think this is a dubious rebound...just an observation.

It is not at all unusual, or to my mind, unreasonable for a city, town, etc. to expect a new developer to contribute to the existing infrastructure which they are using...water, sewer, roads, schools, etc.

Close, but not completely accurate. What IS common is for developers who are building large numbers of units to contribute to the expansion of the infrastructure that their development will require.

[Edited on 9-19-2007 by Roberto]

Roberto - 9-19-2007 at 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
melo roos

Mello Roos are usually paid for by the homeowners. As you said, they are taxes.

jerry - 9-19-2007 at 03:56 PM

in the USA its called systems development charge its paid by the new home owner weather he knows it or not

elizabeth - 9-19-2007 at 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

I obviously should have added the word improvement to the sentence on contribution to existing infrastructure...that was the intent and meaning of the paragraph in the context of why LB should pay to improve the roads.

There actually are contributions to existing infrastructure that simply allow you to buy in...for instance water meters and sewer connections. Here, in Stinson Beach, it will cost you $17,500 to buy a water meter...which will allow you to access the existing infrastructure. Costs of improvement will come down the road!

oldhippie - 9-19-2007 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Quote:

Where else is Loreto's city Government going to get the money it needs?

Plus they probably think Loreto Bay Company is rich, maybe they're right. Tough to sell houses when the streets are the sewers. Mordida, extortion, it's the Mexican way. Tough and effective.

Just a thought.

oldhippie - 9-25-2007 at 07:01 AM

I bet the streets are getting cleaned up and a new outfall pipe has been installed from the sewage treatment plant out to the marine preserve.

Meglamaniac Butterfield has a full page, multi-color Loreto Bay ad in the Sep 17 issue of Newsweek. No ad in the Sep 24 issue.

The ad is titled "Redefining Seaside Living"

"soul-stirring beauty"

"majestic......mountains"

"enchanting Old World town"

They've dropped the "authentic Mexican" BS but are still touting the "largest sustainable development in North America" lie.

"Homes start from the $400s."

I guess leaving off the three ending zeros reduces the sticker shock.

[Edited on 9-25-2007 by oldhippie]

capt. mike - 9-25-2007 at 07:26 AM

the only ones who are "shocked" are the ones who can't afford it hipster.

want some cheeze whiz with that whine of yours?...... :lol:

gnukid - 9-25-2007 at 07:40 AM

At a time when it's fairly obvious the LBC development is not what it claims, not sustainable at all, poorly lacking infrastructure, no waste water treatment, inadequate water source for the planned development cycles, close box housing, with no space for living in a manner which would benefit from/for the surrounding environment etc... I think its time to drop the condescending attitude toward Ol Hippie and the those who have asked simple and obvious questions.

Clearly Mike you do not have the best interests of the community or the best interests of fututre buyers in mind. Therefore Mike you fall into another category, that of the shill, your hollow words are spoken without serious merit or consideration for the real value of the land as an historic and beautiful space or the value of a dollar and its affect.

Try for a moment and imagine the pain your own parents or children would feel if they found their 400k lost in the mire of LBC and reconsider your pithy commentary.

rhintransit - 9-25-2007 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
the only ones who are "shocked" are the ones who can't afford it hipster.

want some cheeze whiz with that whine of yours?...... :lol:

quote Clearly Mike you do not have the best interests of the community or the best interests of fututre buyers in mind. Therefore Mike you fall into another category, that of the shill, your hollow words are spoken without serious merit or consideration for the real value of the land as an historic and beautiful space or the value of a dollar and its affect.

AMEN gnukid and thank you! Mike's vested interest is clear from his tag line.

capn.sharky - 9-25-2007 at 08:25 AM

I have always made it clear how I feel about Loreto Bay....I hate the project. However, I don't see any reason why they should pay one cent towards this mess. They are in Nopolo south of town. The City of Loreto, whether for financial reasons or just bad planning, decided to tear up their two main streets at the same time. Thus, they hurt the business' on both sides of both streets. At the same time they decided to repair the launch ramp---all during the height of the tourists season. There was no logical reason that I could see for the mess the City caused its citizens--nor any logical reason for Loreto Bay to help them clean up their mess. Baja Nomads insulting each other does nothing to solve the problems in Loreto. We should try to stand united as much as possible on our opinions here.

edinnopolo - 9-25-2007 at 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
At a time when it's fairly obvious the LBC development is not what it claims, not sustainable at all, poorly lacking infrastructure, no waste water treatment, inadequate water source for the planned development cycles, close box housing, with no space for living in a manner which would benefit from/for the surrounding environment etc... I think its time to drop the condescending attitude toward Ol Hippie and the those who have asked simple and obvious questions.

Well said Gnukid.
From now on I'll consider you just Gnu and will drop the "kid". You deserve it

elizabeth - 9-25-2007 at 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by backninedan
Cajhawk, are you employed by loreto bay by any chance?

Did you ever get a response? Did I miss it?

oldhippie - 9-25-2007 at 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
the only ones who are "shocked" are the ones who can't afford it hipster.

want some cheeze whiz with that whine of yours?...... :lol:

You might want to stop laughing.

Your website is in violation of the conditions of use of the thawte trusted site seal. Seems that you have bought a SSL certificate but you haven't used it. The loan information form is sending personal information in plain text over the Internet. Very poor style Captain Mike.

Let's see, what should I do about that??

http://www.carefreepartner.com/ApplyNow/tabid/5409/Default.a...

Oh yeah, I like how this sentence on your website starts off:

"Due to the strengthening of the housing market in the United States....."

Osprey - 9-25-2007 at 10:03 AM

Hip one, don't be so hard on Mike. He wears a lot of hats. Probably very busy arranging that special insurance for the Screaming Airlines (the passengers are screaming?) that covers strangers who pay for his gas as though he was a licensed charter -- to be covered in Mexico, on any dirt strip. Wow, what a guy!

gnukid - 9-25-2007 at 11:11 AM

What are we but a nomadic group of friends who simply write to each other to cojole, encourage, discourage and entertain each other. We have little to offer but words, here. So, if Mike is going to spout, someone can and shall spout back back, obviously with little outcome other than the semi-anonymous, historical, textual one, which a user's forum can offer.

Flame on!

flyfishinPam - 9-25-2007 at 11:58 AM

Loreto contruction. Pretty funny name for a subject that is actually deconstruction.

Well there´s another victim of this road work.

The Plaza Loreto Hotel which is on Paseo Hidalgo and the building I'm renting my ofice in has just put up the red and black flag that signifies a strike. Clearly the hotel has lost business during this fiasco. fortunately I was here when the strike went into effect so that I could prevent them from locking down our office doors after explaining that my business is not related to the hotel. We're closed for the season but the strike has no effect on us other than that I can no longer enter through the lobby for the time being. I certainly hope the employees, the sindicato and ownership can relolve their differences quickly. :no:

backninedan - 9-25-2007 at 12:21 PM

Elizabeth,

No answer, which may in itself be the answer??

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 12:40 PM

I was away for a few days. To answer the question, I work in real estate in the States and in Northern Baja, but do not work for Loreto Bay. I did at one time in Southern California and I own a home with some partners in LB, but am now not affiliated in any way. As I said before I am definitely NOT an apologist for them! I just see many inaccuracies of fact (misinformation) or opinions I disagree with (poster's right) upon which I comment.

Whether sales pitch or not, 1% of all revenue is going to a Foundation specifically for Loreto and the Sea of Cortes. The foundation is independently administered by a reputable professor in California. That is a huge sum of money that was NOT required by any agreement with FONATUR. $800,000 toward a hospital in town is definitely a positive. Loreto Bay is building their own clinic onsite (I believe it is completed), and use of the hospital will be minimal until far in the future if at all. The Governor of Baja Sur decided a hospital was the top priority for the area and basically told LB that their Foundation would be more than happy to contribute to it.

Affordable housing has been addressed numerous times. Guess what? Workers don't want to move to Loreto full time with their families! Aunts, uncles, cousins and extended family are in other areas 'back home' and the idea has not caught on. Houses were to be built much like in the US under the FMHA programs in rural America, where a percentage of income is calculated. Land was optioned and than not purchased as there were not enough who wanted to participate. LB had an affordable housing director who worked for Habitat for Humanity on a high level. You can't force people to uproot and LB found that out. Their sales pitch would sound much better if the affordable housing was built, so it isn't them that is the problem in this instance.

Loreto's street woes aren't LBs fault.

Lastly, the project is a heck of a lot more sustainable than anything else I see in Mexico, or (most of the time) in the U.S. Open space is maximized rather than destroyed in many phases of development.

LB's negative impact on Loreto or the site of Nopolo are excellent points of discussion. As far as I know, LB has built the village so far according to the plans submitted to FONATUR. It was FONATUR who said that there was enough water to support 200,000 people and LB who decided it best not to count on that by providing more potable water through a Desal Plant. FONATUR is responsible for expanding the sewer to LB as part of their agreement as well.

Once again, these are the facts as I understand them. My opinion is different than many others on the board, but I am merely trying to supply facts when I perceive inaccuracies. I'll be more careful in the future to separate fact (as I understand them) and my opinion.

Osprey - 9-25-2007 at 12:44 PM

Kid, I happen to know Nomads offer to each other a helluva lot more than mere words. I have watched them share mountains of good will in the form of support, hardgoods and soft while doing a lot of well aimed charity work in Mexico. Be careful how you go about measuring the value of the exchange of knowledge, ideas, good will.

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 12:54 PM

Not judging your goodwill at all! This is obviously a community of people who enjoy Baja and each other. It's just that LB has its good points and bad. If LB is half and half (definitely open to opinion), than let's say that for every 10 things that are good that there are 10 things bad. IMHO what I have seen on the board is that the ratio is more like 1 thing good and 20 things bad, even when some of those 20 are just inaccurate. I am only trying to share info that I know first or at worst secondhand from being around the company.

gnukid - 9-25-2007 at 01:00 PM

What I was referring to in noting the exchange of words was in reference to the implication that we shouldn't be discussing things we can have little direct affect on, as has been implied by various posters. On the contrary, our words are of tremendous value both for new and old transients and residents. And our words shall have impact in the course of time to the degree that as a community we adopt beliefs and act accordingly.

I appreciate the exchange tremendously and in no way would disparage the opportunity.

oldhippie - 9-25-2007 at 01:20 PM

cajhawk,

Finally, someone on the other side of the fence that has something rational to say.

"Loreto's street woes aren't LBs fault." I disagree with you because it was the deal LB cut with FONATUR that got the development of Loreto as a tourist destination started again. It flopped big time before, one of the few FONATUR failures.

And isn't the city of Loreto responsible for handling the Loreto Bay sewage? Building hospitals before building sewers is a bit bass ackwards. But it does ensure a very profitable hospital business.

What about the scarcity of water?

Also, what do you think about a starting price of $400,000 for a LB unit?

Is trusting FONATUR to live up to their part of the deal to make this whole thing work, which I think has a very slim chance, or perhaps a fat chance, a wise idea?

amir - 9-25-2007 at 01:53 PM

I just want to stir the pot and play devil's advocate: Maybe the mess with the streets in Loreto is a calculated gamble that many businesses WILL go bankrupt; then these businesses can be bought up cheaply by the same developers and investors in Loreto Bay. It makes sense to me: get rid of the old wood and the people that complain and fringe establishments that are not derectly enriching LB, make them go belly up, buy them up at liquidation prices, and convert them to real businesses for the benefit of those that can afford box-condos for 400K+. I'm sure they are even plotting how to evict all those poor Loretanos squatting on valuable ancestral property in the area. Why not? What good are these natives and marginal businesses to the invading horde of rich gringos?

Cypress - 9-25-2007 at 02:11 PM

amir Sounds reasonable enough.

Can the " powers that be" be that devious? :?:

Spooky.

CaboRon - 9-25-2007 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by amir
I just want to stir the pot and play devil's advocate: Maybe the mess with the streets in Loreto is a calculated gamble that many businesses WILL go bankrupt; then these businesses can be bought up cheaply by the same developers and investors in Loreto Bay. It makes sense to me: get rid of the old wood and the people that complain and fringe establishments that are not derectly enriching LB, make them go belly up, buy them up at liquidation prices, and convert them to real businesses for the benefit of those that can afford box-condos for 400K+. I'm sure they are even plotting how to evict all those poor Loretanos squatting on valuable ancestral property in the area. Why not? What good are these natives and marginal businesses to the invading horde of rich gringos?

Amir,
Although it sounds interesting..... I think that the level
of cooperation amongst the conspiritors could not be achieved because of the personel greed and short sitedness of those involved.... Just my take on it.

CaboRon

oldhippie - 9-25-2007 at 02:31 PM

Maybe, but it will make selling units tough.

I hope FONATUR is squeezing money out of Butterfield. He's got a lot to lose. Mess it up, make him fix it, or else he'll have to give potential buyers nose plugs and rubber boots for their trip to town to buy authentic Mexican snorkels.

elizabeth - 9-25-2007 at 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
....
Whether sales pitch or not, 1% of all revenue is going to a Foundation specifically for Loreto and the Sea of Cortes.
Affordable housing has been addressed numerous times. Guess what? Workers don't want to move to Loreto full time with their families! Aunts, uncles, cousins and extended family are in other areas 'back home' and the idea has not caught on. Houses were to be built much like in the US under the FMHA programs in rural America, where a percentage of income is calculated. Land was optioned and than not purchased as there were not enough who wanted to participate. LB had an affordable housing director who worked for Habitat for Humanity on a high level. You can't force people to uproot and LB found that out. Their sales pitch would sound much better if the affordable housing was built, so it isn't them that is the problem in this instance.
....
....
Lastly, the project is a heck of a lot more sustainable than anything else I see in Mexico, or (most of the time) in the U.S. Open space is maximized rather than destroyed in many phases of development.

LB's negative impact on Loreto or the site of Nopolo are excellent points of discussion. As far as I know, LB has built the village so far according to the plans submitted to FONATUR. It was FONATUR who said that there was enough water to support 200,000 people and LB who decided it best not to count on that by providing more potable water through a Desal Plant. FONATUR is responsible for expanding the sewer to LB as part of their agreement as well.

Again...I suggest you look at the annual reports for the Loreto Bay Foundation to decide whether or not there is any great benefit to the people of Loreto...or any great amount of money being spent. The hospital is a great selling point even if there is a clinic in LB, because a clinic cannot handle the same problems as a hospital. I still don't know whether the hospital will be a for fee hospital, whether it will accept Mexican insurance, whether it will cover those things that the social security hospital can't and whether or not it will take those patients. Do you know know to what extent it will help the people of Loreto?

When I suggested affordable housing units, I was not talking about imported workers. I was thinking Loreto families. And, I was thinking within the LB project, not on some land outside of the project.

Because something is more sustainable than anything you have seen being built in Mexico, doesn't actually make it more sustainable.

Loreto Bay hasn't built a desal plant to provide more potable water.

Just because Fonatur has agreed to extend the sewer and allow for water use doesn't mean that there is sufficient water, and it doesn't mean that the sewer treatment is adequate. And, just because plans are the same as those submitted to Fonatur doesn't make it sustainable, or create less impact on the environment or the town.

edinnopolo - 9-25-2007 at 03:00 PM

Everybody remember the eco-friendly adobe block :?:

And then the concrete-foam like slabs :?:

Well, now we have something like a diminutive start of an empire state building

comitan - 9-25-2007 at 03:09 PM

Well at least it looks Hurricane proof. :fire:

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Again...I suggest you look at the annual reports for the Loreto Bay Foundation to decide whether or not there is any great benefit to the people of Loreto...or any great amount of money being spent. The hospital is a great selling point even if there is a clinic in LB, because a clinic cannot handle the same problems as a hospital. I still don't know whether the hospital will be a for fee hospital, whether it will accept Mexican insurance, whether it will cover those things that the social security hospital can't and whether or not it will take those patients. Do you know know to what extent it will help the people of Loreto?

When I suggested affordable housing units, I was not talking about imported workers. I was thinking Loreto families. And, I was thinking within the LB project, not on some land outside of the project.

Because something is more sustainable than anything you have seen being built in Mexico, doesn't actually make it more sustainable.

Loreto Bay hasn't built a desal plant to provide more potable water.

Just because Fonatur has agreed to extend the sewer and allow for water use doesn't mean that there is sufficient water, and it doesn't mean that the sewer treatment is adequate. And, just because plans are the same as those submitted to Fonatur doesn't make it sustainable, or create less impact on the environment or the town.

Point taken. When the desal plant goes online you can check that off, as I believe it will be sometime within the next 12 months.

I'm not a water expert, but 3 of the 12 wells are currently being used. Estimates from outside sources are that Loreto wasted about half of its water between the source and piping it into town. If LB ends up using only desal water at some point, than the water issue is moot as well. FONATUR is and has been responsible for the development of Nopolo from its inception and budgeted funds to expand when needed. Loreto is not paying for any additional sewage impact; it is being paid for by FONATUR solely.

It would be nice if it were never developed. FONATUR did and someone was going to come in at some point. I think that if LB were to go bellyup and another developer came in, you would have more issues with the new developer. I give Loreto Bay a C+ so far, mostly due to lengthy construction and lack of amenities being completed. I think that they have a vested interest in Loreto being nice and have been a good neighbor (not great) so far.

As I said before, most people hate seeing change, particularly residential development in a pretty setting. FONATURs decision to develop Loreto set the ball in motion. The amazing thing to me is that someone didn't build there sooner with all of that infrastructure in place.

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edinnopolo
Everybody remember the eco-friendly adobe block :?:

And then the concrete-foam like slabs :?:

Well, now we have something like a diminutive start of an empire state building

Those are the Posada Buildings. They are 3 story condominium buildings with commercial center (market) on the first floor. They are still using adobe on single family homes.

capt. mike - 9-25-2007 at 03:51 PM

This is all sooooo rich. But fun though. Take a powder people and don't be so serious.... :rolleyes:

so i am headed to Loreto thursday and me thinks i'll saunter down to LB before heading to Mulege for the night and see whazzup.

And Osprey, hey thanks for recognizing the charity work i and others do down there. And if you have any doubts about how the pax fuel contribution works, go to the flying sams website where you can read the working rules for volunteering to take a plane ride south for a weekend. You can also see the liability waiver all members must agree to. The pilots pay for their seat cost too. And we all have aircraft liability policies written to a mexican insurance underwriter.
none of us is a "licensed charter" nor do we want to be. When i get calls for that i refer all to Kevin Warren at BajaAirventures.
and.......99% of my riders are Sams, close personal friends and relatives - we SPLIT the costs per FAA rules.

Loreto

tehag - 9-25-2007 at 04:07 PM

The sewer repairs in Loreto are the result of the bloody system being a total botch job from the getgo. I was there when they dug it, by hand mostly, left it open at every manhole for over a year while locals used the openings for a shortcut to the town dump, moved hundreds of families into INFONAVIT before there was a pump at the gravity-fed staging sump, completely lost track of the lines on Davis Street, allowed many users to hookup to lines that had been bypassed which created the great underground black-water river that Davis Street actually fell into at one point, and finally, stood by for years and allowed 85% of the water pumped from San Jaun Londó into the Loreto water system to disappear without ever reaching the processing plant. Loreto Bay had nothing whatever to do with any of that. I'm not one of theirs either, but let's get real here; if a meteorite lands in central Greenland, it's not necessarily Loreto Bay's fault.

elizabeth - 9-25-2007 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
if a meteorite lands in central Greenland, it's not necessarily Loreto Bay's fault.

How can you be sure? :lol:

backninedan - 9-25-2007 at 04:32 PM

I hear LB is planning an authentic Greenland village.

Osprey - 9-25-2007 at 05:16 PM

Mike, take your own "powder", chill. Isn't that your message. None of this is serious or real is it. Don't mean a thang at Screaming Airlines! You must be the only one on this board who can take a joke cause you know it's all just a gas, ain't it. I don't think we'll ever see your kisser on a Sam's hero poster podna.

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 06:24 PM

I've already posted on the "Greenland Nomad" bulletin board. Apparently the meteorite is melting a glacier! LB apparently couldn't get FONATUR to make good on their promise for more wells, so they took matters into their own hands for a more reliable water supply!

:spingrin:

Don Alley - 9-25-2007 at 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
... If LB ends up using only desal water at some point, than the water issue is moot as well. FONATUR is and has been responsible for the development of Nopolo from its inception and budgeted funds to expand when needed. Loreto is not paying for any additional sewage impact; it is being paid for by FONATUR solely.

The Loreto Bay development will result in thousands of new residents who will live outside the development. In fact, several thousand have already shown up despite the completion of only a handful of units. These people will need water, as will those of us already in Loreto. For Loreto Bay to provide its own water supply for its small Nopolo population does not, from our point of view, promise to make the water issue "moot." We are not looking forward to a more expensive source of water, assuming any significant suply of desal water becomes available outside Nopolo. And as I've stated before, at least some interests in the water issue will oppose the unilateral construction of desal plants by private developers.

As for sewage, I don't know if Fonatur is hooking Nopolo up to the Loreto sewer system. They are, however, building a facility near the LB nursery. I am not aware of any commitment by Fonatur to provide assitance to Loreto to mitigate the coming demands of tens of thousands of new residents and the demands they will make on the Loreto system.

And, as far as the street situation in Loreto goes, Loreto Bay is not responsible for the poor state of the repairs underway. But I think those repairs provide an indication as to how well we can expect the municipality to adapt and grow with the large demands in infrastructure that are on the way.

elizabeth - 9-25-2007 at 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk

Affordable housing has been addressed numerous times. Guess what? Workers don't want to move to Loreto full time with their families! Aunts, uncles, cousins and extended family are in other areas 'back home' and the idea has not caught on. Houses were to be built much like in the US under the FMHA programs in rural America, where a percentage of income is calculated. Land was optioned and than not purchased as there were not enough who wanted to participate. LB had an affordable housing director who worked for Habitat for Humanity on a high level. You can't force people to uproot and LB found that out. Their sales pitch would sound much better if the affordable housing was built, so it isn't them that is the problem in this instance.

I don't know of any place in Mexico that has developed a tourist economy that hasn't had lots of people migrate to the area. If you want examples, just look at the Caribbean coast or the Pacific coast. How do you know that none of the workers want to stay? How do you know that support workers won't migrate? I don't think affordable housing would mean anything to the sales pitch...but, it sure is cheaper not to provide it.

[Edited on 9-26-2007 by elizabeth]

cajhawk - 9-25-2007 at 09:14 PM

I know that strong efforts have been made to provide affordable houses for workers. I also know that contractors responsible for worker housing gave workers an option for a small increase in their daily cost to upgrade housing. It was refused almost unanimously. Once again, I'm pointing out the areas that LB deserves at least some credit. The sales pitch is very much about trying to make Loretanos and those in Nopolo more of a community. This is appealing to wealthier gringos that DON"T want to be the provincial American like in Cabo. They don't want the Giggling Marlin or Hard Rock, but want local restaurants with a Mexican flavor (like Mitas, my favorite).

Of course if Loreto Bay goes belly up you can always count on seeing high rises on the beach (like FONATURs original plan). Loreto Bay has issues, but all of Loreto's issues are not Loreto Bay.

Paula - 9-25-2007 at 09:48 PM

cajhawk
Newbie

Posts: 24
Registered: 11-16-2004
Location: Ramona, CA
Member Is Online

posted on 9-25-2007 at 09:17 PM

LOL; I'm checking it out to promote it to customers in U.S. If it meets criteria of clean title, developer financing, acceptable location and quality of contruction I will do so. If not, I won't.

cajhawk, the above is from your "San Felipe Drive" thread, and refers to a development you are planning to visit down there. So you've been pretty busy looking for alternative properties to push to US clients. There is a world of difference between those of us who have found a place we love in baja and bought on our own initiative, and those who come in herds, following some promoter, with little or no interest in the life and culture there as it was before they came. It is those followers you hope to bring who have a negative impact on the environment, the economy, and the customs of the area. I can't help but think we'd all be better off if you would just stay home.

capt. mike - 9-26-2007 at 07:18 AM

like i have said many times, i would never buy a LB place. I like renting at palapaville. but nothing here said has convinced me that LB is now or will be a "problem".

but the market will decide what works and won't. - not a bunch of pro/con erudites, and certainly not ones from this little old website that while a fun place to check in and interact, is not a moving force for change nor accreditdation ultimately.

and Osprey......check your meds amigo, they might have expired. :lol:

flyfishinPam - 9-26-2007 at 08:07 AM

Quote:

Amir, many Loretanos are thinking along these lines. When LB first started bringing in folks for their sales events, they would let them rome the streets of town to shop and look around. But that stopped after a few months and lost sales because those people were checking out real estate outside Loreto Bay and the prices were oh so much better and you get much more for your investment. So they have coralled the potential buyers during the entire event and they only let them loose when there´s a sales rep with them to hold their hands during dinners in town but they are not let loose like before. Many of the business owners think that now LB has a valid excuse for not letting the potential buyers into town, the town is a mess and a health hazard. Businesses who aren´t willing to jack up their prices in order to accommodate the large comissions they require and then wait over two months to be paid are not welcome to work with them. I apologize for also thinking this way but its hard not to when you have to make a living and everything around you prevents you from being able to do it. However with this said I believe the town has its own unique charm of being a real authentic Mexican Village and not like the disneylandia to the south of us. By doing a good job, charging fair prices, treating employees fairly and offering a relaxing beautiful destination the businesses of the town of Loreto will persevere, flights or no flights we´ve done it before we re survivors, Loreto Bay or no Loreto Bay we will continue to help folks from up north unwind and enjoy this peaceful place.

cajhawk - 9-26-2007 at 08:38 AM

Before you cast me in the role of a shill, I have been in real estate for 20 years in new home development. I chose to start working in Baja because I enjoy it. I'm sorry if my choice of profession isn't considered honorable by some on the board. I represent two or three quality developments in Baja and help them sell and market.

amir - 9-26-2007 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
Before you cast me in the role of a shill, I have been in real estate for 20 years in new home development. I chose to start working in Baja because I enjoy it. I'm sorry if my choice of profession isn't considered honorable by some on the board. I represent two or three quality developments in Baja and help them sell and market.

Ca$hhawk:
The profession is honorable. Some people in the profession are not. :saint:

Vague statements like "I represent two or three quality developers..."; don't you know if you represent two OR three developers? :?:

Your words in this thread make me doubt your motives and your integrity.

[Edited on 9-26-2007 by amir]

amir - 9-26-2007 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam
... I apologize for also thinking this way but its hard not to when you have to make a living and everything around you prevents you from being able to do it. ...

We became suspicious when they tore up the boat ramp just before the tournament. What other explanation could there be but SABOTAGE. It wouldn'd take much mordida to purposefully cause the problems in Loreto right now, and one only has to follow the $$$ trail to figure out who is benefitting from the mess...

amir - 9-26-2007 at 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

... but the market will decide what works and won't. - not a bunch of pro/con erudites, and certainly not ones from this little old website that while a fun place to check in and interact, is not a moving force for change nor accreditdation ultimately...

How duplicitous and condescending!!!

You have shown your true colors... :fire:

oldhippie - 9-26-2007 at 10:24 AM

cajhawk,

Since you're a real estate pro, give us your honest assessment of the value of the LB units. Haven't they recently upped the price quite a bit to $400K+? That's a lot of money for a medium sized home with no yard, no A/C to get through sweltering summers, no real services, no parking, no entertainment (theaters, baseball/football games, nightclubs, live music, libraries, etc.) and in essentially the middle of nowhere.

Given the housing bust in the US and the tightening of mortgages (does that include seconds?) what do you really think about the prices? Also, I'm adjusting my investments for an upcoming recession in the US, but that's just my guess based upon the historical swings in the economy, the DOW now approaching 14,000, the Euro becoming the currency of choice, and foreign investors becoming more and more reluctant to buy US debt instruments.

Here's a house on 1.5 acres in San Diego for $430,000. Now I know it's different but........it's the same price.

http://tinyurl.com/2secho

oldhippie - 9-26-2007 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by amir

Quote:

How duplicitous and condescending!!!

You have shown your true colors... :fire:

Capt. Mike uses the market will decide argument a lot. To which I respond that using that simplified logic the market has determined that methamphetamine is a good thing. Just because people buy something does not mean it's OK.

flyfishinPam - 9-26-2007 at 11:09 AM

Interesting and sad coming into my shop next to a huge black and red flag. That means a strike is going on. The Plaza Loreto Hotel has been here since 1990 built by two prominent Loreto citizens who have been very active throughout the years in tourism and promoting Loreto´s only industry. They have since retired and handed over the management to a Cabo san Luqueño. I spoke with employees who are striking here at the hotel and they tell me that they haven´t been being paid and its a direct result of the road work throughout town. another business that´s been around for quite some time and almost across the street is Tio Lupe Restaurant. They have been very hard hit financially by this and are on the verge of closure. I dont eat out often but I hope folks that come down will go and support Tio Lupe´s. It was once a partnership but the chef took over a few months ago. He brought many of his family from the mainland and they´ve been doing a great job and working very hard at it. They also are a sponsor of one of the veterano soccer teams. The cuarto altos restaruant is another who has taken a beating over this. Their food is great and the bartender Chuy is my stepson, nice and fun guy like his dad.

while the "progress" is taking place half assed we are determined to survive it. We survived 9/11 when nobody came here for months and months and after aero califonria outright canceled this destination. we survived aero mexico´s canceling this destination in the late 80´s . Loretanos have been through a lot so I am not intimidated by a bunch of monied pansies who think that their loot and good looks will get them through everything down here. Its not like that although it appears that way now it will equilibrate.

What goes up must come down, a law of gravity and economics. Loreto is a boomtown now but it will eventually bust. It´s not that a bust is a good thing but an unhealthy boom is not a good thing either, there needs to be some middle ground. Water will be the big issue to prevent out of control development on the baja peninsula. So will housing and workers rights, education and medical facilities.

watch for a furiously contested mayoral election in Loreto to come this february. that means lotsa anuncias everywhere and at all times of the day and night.

capt. mike - 9-26-2007 at 11:39 AM

"Capt. Mike uses the market will decide argument a lot. To which I respond that using that simplified logic the market has determined that methamphetamine is a good thing. Just because people buy something does not mean it's OK."

The market is impassionate and does not determine good or bad - free peoples do.

so what would you do......? .

set up controls on home buying and investment too? and then what else?
maybe you'd like to live with Chavez' thugs in Venezuela?

Free enterprise and capitalism form the basis upon which this country......that is the USA , was founded.

Market interference mechanisms do two things, cause shortages and raise prices - pure and simple, easy to prove based on the empirical data for every time it has been tried.

Besides all that - it's Mexico - its their country - even with foreign investment capitalizing private development the mex gov't can and will decide what works or doesn't for the citizenry.

LB is here like it or not. If you don't like it don't buy one. nothing you can do will make it disappear - and i'll say it MAY peter out one day if it doesn't work as planned - well, that's business - comes with risks. The rewards from accepting risk might be profits. The downside might be losses.

And there could be social gains or losses - part of the equation. The alternative, totally planned economies, i find about as acceptable as jail.

i'll take liberty everytime. And the freedom to make decisions for myself.

I really don't understand all the expats complaining about this project when as far as i can tell no one b-tching has lost any money yet as a direct result of buying a home there.

But as i said before - not my business, i am not supportive of it as a buyer - i never would live in a condo controlled community. My music and parties are way too loud :wow:

this is boring now........ :barf:

rhintransit - 9-26-2007 at 12:07 PM

maybe nobody's lost money yet as Capt Mike says. ?quien sabe? but a whole lot of people have made a hell of a lot selling fantasies to the gullible and uninformed. that's the free enterprise mortgage brokers and realtors defend.

vandenberg - 9-26-2007 at 12:29 PM

Pam,
Check your U2U
Ed

edinnopolo - 9-26-2007 at 12:36 PM

Loreto Bay is here...like it or not. :?:

Well. latest rumour, sounds legit, has it that they are done and Citigroup has taken over.

The project is supposed to get done up to the units that have been sold. True or not :?:

Just relaying this rumour :saint:

oldhippie - 9-26-2007 at 01:28 PM

Capt Mike,

Did you ever hear of the California Coastal Commission? If free enterprise were left unchecked the whole coast line would be high rise condos. They wouldn't have let LB be built because you have to supply a water plan for the next 20 years for development in CA and help provide the necessary infrastructure. There are many examples where "free enterprise" is regulated in the US. Zoning restrictions, building codes, etc. etc. and innumerable laws against "this and that" type of free enterprise. Do you have any more weak arguments I can shoot down in one sentence?

Cypress - 9-26-2007 at 01:54 PM

Loreto Bay isn't the end of the world, just a pimple. :tumble:

They tell me the desert climate will dry up pimples. :spingrin:

capt. mike - 9-26-2007 at 02:26 PM

no - i have no problem with having to go through a proper entitlement process. i have to do it all the time. Am doing it now for our latest project in SE AZ.
and i didn't intend that free enterprize comes without some fair controls, just not dictatorial interference.

so - a Mexican Coastal commission, if it were involved and properly jurised, could i guess have shot it down long ago. Or approved it - there are rules and regs for all their monitoring of development. They love their stamps........i'll receive about 6 of them between SD and Loreto manana...big whoop.

don't ask me tho - i am not a mexican and don't live there. none of it is my concern. I have my own real battles to win and manage here in the USA. I think more Americans should think about defending AMERICA against radical facists and worry less about what goes on in a recreational zone like baja.

shoot down whatever you want amigo. i haven't the time to care one way or another. I am singing the Andy of Mayberry whistle now.... :coolup:

amir - 9-26-2007 at 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
... bla bla bla ...

Edited to clarify how I feel about capt.mike's attitude about Baja.

[Edited on 9-26-2007 by amir]

Gnome-ad - 9-26-2007 at 04:09 PM

Aye, aye, cap’n. What a load of crap. You really did show your true colors when you called Baja a “recreational zone”, makes me burn. What if some ferriner came and declared Mayberry a “recreational zone?” Andy’d be whistling with a different orifice. Baja Norte and Sur are NOT just recreational zones. People, real people of many types, live and work here and are deeply effected when people who don’t really care about the area come to just make a quick buck and move on.

Free enterprise ain’t free anymore than the promised free lunch. And I hope you’re talking about the current administration when you say “fascists.”

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2007 at 04:45 PM

Loretenos can control their own destiny. Market forces don't necessarily control what a community will look like.

The following is a link to a local event in my part of the world which demonstrates this. Thirty-six years ago the business owners of Half Moon Bay tried to extend a freeway from San Francisco to our little town. A six lane freeway that promised to raise home prices and add to local business.

The proposed freeway measure was voted on by our community and defeated. Yes, Devil's Slide was inadequate but a freeway was not the only answer as we were intially told. Most of us had moved to this area for a certain quality of life and saw the development as a destructive force to what we were seeking.

Similarly we have voted on numerous measures for controlled growth that limits new homes to something like 1% per year. That pretty much stopped all the tract home developments that had occured in the 70's.

Yes there was much discontent by those who stood to profit. "It's my land and I should be able to do what I want with it". But in the end it's still a democracy if you choose to use it.

As I see it Loreto is in the same position. A beautiful location whose beauty is being threatened by some who feel they have a right to do so. The big difference is that mexicans are much more easily duped than their american counterparts. They just don't seem to understand the true value of their assets. It's too bad because by the time they do there won't be anything in baja left worth preserving.

Mostly what I really don't like is the idea that development in baja is inevitable. Just accept it and get out of the way. The almighty markets dictate it. That's just a bunch of B.S. It's simply not true. It wasn't true for us and it's not true for Loreto.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/18/MNR5S7S4V.DTL&hw=half+moon+bay+tunnel&sn=001&sc=1000

capt. mike - 9-27-2007 at 04:26 AM

:lol:

the funniest thing here are the ones who think/act like the peninsula is YOURS!!!! and you're not a Mex citizen.
what a bunch of meddling bizi bodies.

i'll listen intently to any real mex citizen who wants to opine about LB. Their statements might matter to my thought processes. But oh wait - none have spoken here! Just a bunch of control freaks..............

oldhippie - 9-27-2007 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
i'll listen intently to any real mex citizen who wants to opine about LB. Their statements might matter to my thought processes.

Here you cap mike, let me know if you want more

"As a result of the ICFJ training, Mexican participant Eduardo Valdez published his article “La otra colonización” in the Culiacán, Sinaloa, newspaper El Noroeste. The full-page story examines Loreto Bay’s uncertain future as American and Canadian investors’ developments may increase the community’s population and cause problems with trash, water drainage and unemployment."

http://www.icfj.org/column1.html

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by oldhippie]

Paula - 9-27-2007 at 09:48 PM

A cultural keyword for everybody's vocabulary: "cangrejismo".

--Larry

Extreme crabbiness :?:

amir - 9-27-2007 at 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike

... and you're not a Mex citizen.
what a bunch of meddling bizi bodies...

I am not Mexican. Yet. But I live in Baja full time now. Baja is my HOME.

YOU, capitain, are not Mexican either, and YOU are the one who is meddling in here.

danaeb - 9-27-2007 at 10:38 PM

A close friend, VP of Ops for a very large No. Calif real estate company told me last weekend that many ex-agents from their company have started 'mining' Baja as opportunities dry up in California. I wonder if cajhawk might be one of those opportunists?

BajaNomad - 9-28-2007 at 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
the only ones who are "shocked" are the ones who can't afford it hipster.

want some cheeze whiz with that whine of yours?...... :lol:

A. You respond with an attack not relevant to the conversation.... thusly turning attention away from the subject?

B. You threaten "what should I do about that??"

C. Assert the website you mention is in "violation" (it isn't).

D. Assert "poor style" in that personal information is being sent insecure, when in fact this also is incorrect.

Reminder: when you make statements of fact that are incorrect, how do people perceive other statements you put forth as fact?... and will that get you the results you desire?

Question: Should you be communicating something else at this time to Capt Mike?

If you view the source code of the page in question, you would find that the form itself is in an "iframe" and is a secure page - regardless of if the "lock/secure" symbol is being displayed by the browser, the information sent is indeed secure - and there's seems to be no "violation" taking place here in the least.

Reference:
https://www.mortgagedashboard.com/miniapp/MexicoLead_plugin....

Speaking of style, poor or otherwise, what would be the right thing for you to do about this at this point?

Thanks,
--
Doug

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by BajaNomad]

oldhippie - 9-28-2007 at 07:07 AM

OK, since you continue with the off topic topic, I'll respond. Capt. Mike, it's real dumb to build a secure webpage that does not display https as the transport protocol in the address and in such a way that the browser lock symbol, which is the key method of knowing whether of not the page is secure, is circumvented. As bajanomad pointed out, you have to read the source code determine whether of not the information posted is encrypted.

Is that what you had in mind Mr. Nomad?

see: https://www.thawte.com/ssl-digital-certificates/trusted-site...

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by oldhippie]

oldhippie - 9-28-2007 at 08:39 AM

Citibank was doing the same thing at their login page. I called and talked to their tech folks. Other folks must have called too because they went back to using https port 443. They used the argument that other stuff on the page did not need to be sent using SSL, and I responded "so what, how am I supposed to know that my login credentials are being transmitted using encryption".

Anybody can do a print screen to the clipboard and using an image editor get the secure seal image. It means nothing.

For example only, this is a bogus use of the image:

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by oldhippie]

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by oldhippie]

thawte.gif - 3kB

Paula - 9-28-2007 at 11:03 AM

I have several friends who sell real eastate. They all sell in the area they live in. They are nice people of high integrity who help people find homes that satisfy their needs, and help people sell homes when what they have no longer suits them. None of them travel around looking for opportunities to work outside of their area of residence because they pretty much understand that there are competent brokers everywhere. They don't try to sell "investments", just homes and businesses.

This is not a personal comment on what anyone chooses to do for a living. Personally, when I want to invest my money, I'll talk to my investment advisor, and not my real estate people.

cajhawk - 9-28-2007 at 11:10 AM

Thank you for your comments Paula. I concentrate on second homes for retirement and vacation and believe Baja is the area I want to focus on. The buyers should be focusing on lifestyle and present/future retirement. The investment should be focused on safety, not on the potential gain. Reputable agents put people in reputable communities and homes. I have been in real estate for 20 years in California and the Baja and do not jump around from one "hot" market to the next. Perhaps if you ever met me you could say that you have friends who sell real estate in the area they live and one who helps people find those agents/developments in the Baja!

Paula - 9-28-2007 at 11:57 AM

cajhawk

I really know little about the real estate business, but my instincts tell me that i might ask a friend/agent in my home base to help me find a broker in an area I might buy a second home in. One who knows the area well because they live and work there. Of course I would have traveled to the area and at least have some understanding of the place-- the climate, prices, culture, environmental concerns, etc.

It is too bad you deleted your post immediately above mine in which you explained to us that real estate is an honorable profession, which I am not diputing. You also said that in 20 years in the business your integrity has never been questioned. And you said that LB may still have good investment potential.

While I would not question your integrity because I don't even know who you are, I might express my disappointment that others cannot easily follow our conversation here because you have erased the entire statement that I was responding to. Will your post on 9-28-2007 at 11:10 remain?

Edit: Minnow asked a poster on another thread why he quotes the whole post that he is responding to when it is right above for everyone to see. Wish i had quoted cajhawk in my previous post

[Edited on 9-28-2007 by Paula]

cajhawk - 9-28-2007 at 12:21 PM

I was trying to edit and after 3 times I gave up after it was erased; went ahead and deleted. My job is to meet with local brokers in the States and educate them on referrals to the Baja. I am paid by a sales/marketing firm and only talk to them about developments that I personally believe are reputable. I only represent 3 developments in the Baja, and have studied countless others. I do not directly sell the development, but refer them to the local broker in the Baja. I want your friends to be paid a referral fee and the local expert to take care of them.

My point earlier was that my integrity has been questioned because I am a Realtor or because I am choosing to market the Baja. There are those that are unethical or opportunists; I know in my heart and my past business dealings with others that I am neither. I have tried to represent facts as I see them when I see statements which I know to be false on the board.

cajhawk - 9-28-2007 at 12:24 PM

PS How do you get the message to repost if you edit? I hit preview post again and the post reply box disappears. I wasn't done again and it posts; try to edit and it won't let me!

bajajudy - 9-28-2007 at 12:25 PM

cajhawk
Baja.

Hook - 9-28-2007 at 12:30 PM

WOW......I just stumbled on the set of Grumpy Old Men IV.

Paula - 9-28-2007 at 12:31 PM

cajhawk,

based on your previous posts I question your knowledge and understanding of environmental, social, cultural and political matters in Baja. I wouldn't claim to have all the answers either, and I live there.

I do feel that promoting sales in an area that one has no personal stake in is opportunistic.

Paula - 9-28-2007 at 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
WOW......I just stumbled on the set of Grumpy Old Men IV.

Hook, I hope you aren't referring to me as a Grumpy old man :?:

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