BajaNomad - Back from DF:applying for mexican citizenship

Back from DF:applying for mexican citizenship

shari - 9-24-2007 at 11:05 AM

we're baaaack amigos from a grueling week long trip from San Jose del Cabo to DF and back. Our WONDERFUL agent Alonso from La Paz arranged everything for us and a very competent specialist lawyer in DF took care of all the details. He will pick you up at the airport, do everything, put you up at his home and it's a piece of cake. I highly recommend this team for anyone wanting to become a citizen here. Een though I used to be one to do all this paperwork by myself, I now realize it is very difficult, nearly impossible to get all the details correct without an agent. I have been converted. Anyone wanting detailed info on this can U2U me. We are gonna have a huge fiesta if it all works out well! Missed you all terribly and had withdrawl headaches.

sancho - 9-24-2007 at 11:47 AM

Excuse this post if you find
it nosey, what are the benefits
positives about becoming a
cetizen of Mexico? I think I'm
correct in saying Mexican
citizens who become US Citizens
can retain their Mexican Citizenship
status, thus becoming duel citizens,
would that apply in reverse?
ran into a couple yrs ago in Mulege,
who ,close to the birth of a child
went to Ensenada, where their
son was born in the Ensenada
Hospital, thus having rights
to Mex citizenship, with the
idea of owning land,
again hope this is not
offensive

oldhippie - 9-24-2007 at 11:56 AM

"However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

gnukid - 9-24-2007 at 12:17 PM

jajajaja the threat of loss of US citizenship is not enforceable for those who are in fact born in the US even though it's written as such, read 'does not happen'. Though, how can one really be completely committed to two countries, or three or four...! Thus the idea of dual citizenship is really a misnomer, its more like multiple separate citizenship.

Viva la Mexico viva la mexico viva la mexico!

bacquito - 9-24-2007 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
"However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

I have a friend who is preparing to take his test to become a Mexican citizen and my question was his status as a USA citizen. I think the above quote clears the matter up. I'll stick with FM3 status.

Sharksbaja - 9-24-2007 at 12:22 PM

But she is(was?) Canadian

Eli - 9-24-2007 at 12:48 PM

Profundamente Te felicita Sheri, on your choice and the direction you are taking. I hope all continues to run smooth for you in your naturalizations processing. It was a little bumpy for me, Relacion Exteriors moved from one building to another during my processing, and there was one point where I think they misplaced my paperwork. I am pretty sure I used a different Lawyer in Mexico City, I applied in Feb. of 06 and my citizenship document was signed by relación exteriores in Sept of 06, although I did not do my final signing and receive the documents until January of 07. I did a little sweating between October and December, when they finally found my paper work.

For one whose principal family members are Mexican citizens and whose life is here, the reason to naturalize is simply the security that the government can’t kick you out, separating you from your loved ones or deport you for your life style or form of livelihood. For me, the right to an opinion and not have to report my life style changes to immigration was a motivating factor.

For example, I had no interest in the political struggles of Oaxaca last year, nothing to do with either side, but until I received my citizenship, I was concerned that by simply being in the city during it’s time of political strife, I was at risk for deportation. Owning land and voting are secondary reasons that don’t really personally concern me, but I know a lot of people whose primary motive was to own their properties and business in Baja without concern of lose.

There has always been a controversy in regard to giving up one’s U.S. citizenship in order to naturalize here in Mexico. I know a fairly large community of people who have taken this step, no one who has, has yet been asked to give up their U.S. passports, they travel freely between the two countries, producing the U.S. passport going North and the Mexican Passport going South. For me, I have no intention of returning North of the boarder for more than a visit anyway, so again, I would be o.k. with the sacrifice if I had to.

I think it is GREAT to be a dual citizen, if you plan to live your life here, it provides a sense of freedom beyond belief, I am so relieved that I did it!

Dave - 9-24-2007 at 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
"However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

You really, really, really have to try hard to lose U.S. citizenship. I've held dual citizenship for over 30 years. This year I received Polish citizenship and I plan on doing exactly what Shari has done.

You can only lose U.S. citizenship by renouncing it and if you don't owe Uncle Sammy any money. :lol:

bajalou - 9-24-2007 at 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bacquito

Quote:

Key words here are "with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

Without that intention, US citizenship is retained.

elizabeth - 9-24-2007 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
"However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

There is a legal presumption that you intend to retain your US citizenship when you also become a citizen of another country. In order to lose US citizenship upon becoming a citizen of another country, you must INTEND to give up your US citizenship.

rob - 9-24-2007 at 01:08 PM

Baquito, I am happy that oldhippies post (that guy can find ANYTHING) allowed you to make a decision, but the quote itself needs to be read with care.

Becoming a citizen of another country does not, in and of itself, constitute any threat to your U.S. citizenship whatsoever.

To "lose U.S. citizenship" you have to complete a legal TWO-STAGE PROCESS (per the State Dept):

- you have to freely apply for foreign citizenship

- you have to ACTIVELY AND FORMALLY RENOUNCE YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP.

Now this last step is not one achieved by initialing the wrong box on a form - it is a serious process requiring multiple forms (which I remember from law school), and is purposely made difficult for obvious reasons.

elizabeth - 9-24-2007 at 01:16 PM

Maybe these two quotes from the Department of State website will clarify!

"The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government."

"When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4), the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship."

shari - 9-24-2007 at 01:34 PM

Muchas gracias Eli...I am really excited about finally legally being mexican as I have felt and lived like a mexicana for many years now and have my life here...family, home and amigos. while there are seious problems here, this culture has taught me so much about being humble, polite, carefree, (not sweating the small stuff), formal, fun loving etc. etc...i am happy here and don't plan on living in canada again. So can you come to the party?

oldhippie - 9-24-2007 at 02:52 PM

Thanks Elizabeth, I was wondering how they determine intent. I don't intend on living in the US again and thought that might cause problems with Tio Sam.

gnukid - 9-24-2007 at 03:37 PM

Is it generally required that if you are a US citizen you must file annual fed and state tax forms regardless and if you are a mexican citizen you must file taxes regardless of income as well?

Sharksbaja - 9-24-2007 at 03:37 PM

Good for you Shari. Hope you enjoy many many years in Mexico. You think they have problems there.....hoo...wee, not like the in good ol US in A.

Eli - 9-24-2007 at 03:47 PM

Shari,

I know, I totally understand where you are coming from, You are now a part of where you are. And, you have to much at stake not to make this final step. Did the lawyer give you any ideal how long before the final signing? I know that in the past; 8 months to year was not out of line.

Thanks, I am honored for the invite to celebrate when it finally comes thu. We shall see when the time comes if I visit your place more than just in cyber space, I have logged on to your web site, which by the way, I always find to be a delight. I think if I were to head North of La Paz, the first place I would hit would be Coyote Bay, San Ignascio next and than up to Bahia Asuncion and back South again.

I expect that Bernie was the last person to get a glimps of me in the North and that was a few years ago as me and the Ol Man were high tailing it back home to Los Barriles. It is so much more my nature to head South than North.

Cit

tehag - 9-24-2007 at 04:11 PM

Shari:

Care to divulge the cost?

rhintransit - 9-24-2007 at 04:31 PM

not to be picky here, but I think that Shari is Canadian applying for citizenship in Mexico. the USA/Mexico or other country dual citizenship questions are very timely and educational but, out of curiosity, Shari or other citizens of the further north Americas, what is the Canadian stance on dual citizenship?

CaboRon - 9-24-2007 at 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
we're baaaack amigos from a grueling week long trip from San Jose del Cabo to DF and back. Our WONDERFUL agent Alonso from La Paz arranged everything for us and a very competent specialist lawyer in DF took care of all the details.

Sharri,

What is DF ?

CaboRon

bajajudy - 9-24-2007 at 05:33 PM

Ron
Mexico City, DF(in English federal district)

bacquito - 9-24-2007 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

- you have to freely apply for foreign citizenship

- you have to ACTIVELY AND FORMALLY RENOUNCE YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP.

Now this last step is not one achieved by initialing the wrong box on a form - it is a serious process requiring multiple forms (which I remember from law school), and is purposely made difficult for obvious reasons.

bacquito - 9-24-2007 at 06:03 PM

Quote:

bacquito - 9-24-2007 at 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rob
Baquito, I am happy that oldhippies post (that guy can find ANYTHING) allowed you to make a decision, but the quote itself needs to be read with care.

Becoming a citizen of another country does not, in and of itself, constitute any threat to your U.S. citizenship whatsoever.

To "lose U.S. citizenship" you have to complete a legal TWO-STAGE PROCESS (per the State Dept):

Thanks Rob for clarifying-How long after you have a
fm3 must you wait before applying for Mexican citizenship?
- you have to freely apply for foreign citizenship

- you have to ACTIVELY AND FORMALLY RENOUNCE YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP.

Now this last step is not one achieved by initialing the wrong box on a form - it is a serious process requiring multiple forms (which I remember from law school), and is purposely made difficult for obvious reasons.

bacquito - 9-24-2007 at 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rob
Baquito, I am happy that oldhippies post (that guy can find ANYTHING) allowed you to make a decision, but the quote itself needs to be read with care.

Becoming a citizen of another country does not, in and of itself, constitute any threat to your U.S. citizenship whatsoever.

To "lose U.S. citizenship" you have to complete a legal TWO-STAGE PROCESS (per the State Dept):

- you have to freely apply for foreign citizenship

- you have to ACTIVELY AND FORMALLY RENOUNCE YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP.

Now this last step is not one achieved by initialing the wrong box on a form - it is a serious process requiring multiple forms (which I remember from law school), and is purposely made difficult for obvious reasons.

Thanks Rob for clarifying-How long after you have an FM 3 must you wait before applying for Mexican citizenship?

shari - 9-25-2007 at 11:17 AM

It is not cheap but it's definately better than renewing your fm3's all the time..it's for life! the cost depends on what services you need but it's somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 pesos, which includes everything, all the payments, paperwork, airport pick up, the works...I believe but it could be more too. I highly recommend LIc. Gilberto Piñera in DF and make sure you tell him shari sent you as I told him I would send my nomad amigos. His phone # in DF is 52-555-529-8701. There are cheaper flights to Toluca that cost around a hundred bucks each way from San Jose del Cabo...and we found some great cheap hotels downtown in the historical section for $20!! The process after you apply may take several months then you go back to DF to pick up your new passport and voila!

Sharksbaja - 9-25-2007 at 11:28 AM

Is speaking Spanish mandatory?

shari - 9-25-2007 at 11:38 AM

IMHO si señor...but he has clients who don't...it sure helps to speak a little for sure just in case...buy you can study up with the guide and memorize answers I imagine. Best to ask the lawyer himself I guess. I feel that anyone becoming mexican should learn the language though.

Mango - 9-25-2007 at 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajudy
Ron
Mexico City, DF(in English federal district)

Correct; but, just to add a few pesos to the mix for some added confusion..

You will often hear mainlanders refering to DF/Estado de Mexico as just "Mexico" as well.

DF generally refers just to the Federal District; but, many lump in the surrounding metro area with "DF" even though much of it extends well beyond the Federal District into the surrounding states. The term "Mexico" can either mean the state of Mexico, DF, and/or the entire "Valley of Mexico" as well. It can get quite confusing. You tend to hear people use the ambiguous term, "Mexico" in and around the central mainland more than elsewhere in the country.

Also, a person from DF will often be referred to as a Chilango(a) which is similar to "Gringo" as it can be awkward to use. I find it better to avoid use with strangers and often with friends as it can be insulting/non-insulting depending on context, use, person, mood, etc..

Shari, I think your headache may have been from the air and not from "withdrawal". I get an instant headache almost every time I go to DF. Either by air or bus, you can see the layer of smog as you enter the valley of Mexico. The smog is worst during the afternoon hours and the dry season especially during the months of January and February.

Congratulations on your citizenship!

sylens - 9-25-2007 at 12:08 PM

Quote:

Also, a person from DF will often be referred to as a Chilango(a) which is similar to "Gringo" as it can be awkward to use. I find it better to avoid use with strangers and often with friends as it can be insulting/non-insulting depending on context, use, person, mood, etc..

a bit more trivia. i have it on good authority :lol:

that "chilango/a" refers to folks from "the provinces" that end up in df. one born there is a "capitalino/a."

chilangos have a reputation in mexico similar to the reputation of new yorkers in the good old usa. rude, obnoxious, and always in a hurry. :cool:

Bajagypsy - 9-25-2007 at 12:15 PM

I'm glad it went well for you, just a word of caution on your party though. Watch what tequila you buy :lol:

shari - 9-25-2007 at 12:22 PM

maybe we should arrange in advance at the hospital so we have IV time available for partyicipants :lol:

Mango - 9-25-2007 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sylens

a bit more trivia. i have it on good authority :lol:

that "chilango/a" refers to folks from "the provinces" that end up in df. one born there is a "capitalino/a."

chilangos have a reputation in mexico similar to the reputation of new yorkers in the good old usa. rude, obnoxious, and always in a hurry. :cool:

Yep, You are correct and I agree with you on the traditional use of the term Capitalino. However; perception and use is king and most people in the rest of Mexico only care about where your from.. they won't often bother to ask where you were born. If you roll into a tiny little village in a shiny car with DF plates... the term "Chilango" will go though heads far more the "Capitalino" IMO.

Mango - 9-25-2007 at 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajagypsy
I'm glad it went well for you, just a word of caution on your party though. Watch what tequila you buy :lol:

Just stay away from anything "Gold" and you should be OK. Depending on budget or availability I recommend Herradura (widely loved by Mexicans) blanco or reposado. Cheaper blancos can/will be good for Margaritas.

Eli - 9-25-2007 at 01:09 PM

Yep, Humberto Pinera, same guy, about the same cost, $13,000 pesos, apart from flight and I stayed with friends, so it was economical in that sense. Amazing his contacts, we would just whoush right through those offices; Twas a real wham bam thank you Mam kind of day both times I went to see him. It was the period in between that got a little sticky for me. Again good luck to you Shari.

shari - 9-25-2007 at 05:03 PM

Yes, he's the man..and a man on a mission...all business and very busy indeed. I thought his name was Gilberto...thanks...good thing the months just fly by...the cost depends on by what means you are becoming mexican...mexican spouse or child or 5 years in the country. It was interesting to note that things have become stricter now after the famous "Chino" case where he got his citizinship very quickly.

SiReNiTa - 9-25-2007 at 05:14 PM

congrats mom...i think it is a great idea...mexico has so much to offer in every single way possible...and i'm not saying that just because this is my country...it's true and i am positive every single person on this board will agree 100%...mexico lindo y querido, si muero lejos de ti, que digan que estoy dormida y que me traigan a tiiiiiiiiiiiii.....to good to be true...moms more mexican that most mexicans that were actually born here...she deserves this, she has worked so hard for so long...i am so happy for u mommyyyyy

Eli - 9-25-2007 at 05:34 PM

Ay Sheri, I think you are correct, his name is Gilberto, not Humberto, I have been getting in trouble with my "Beto's" for years now. If they could all just be Beto, this would resolve a lot of memory blips for me. Anyway, He was one abrupt get it done kind of guy. I am just glad I did it and I am done.

My daughter went thru La Paz, direct with relaciones exteriores, no lawyer, took the test, saved all kinds of money, she is not the nervous nelly I am.

Oh que, now tell us la chisme; What Chino case?

rob - 9-26-2007 at 08:02 AM

Hola Bacquito,

You must have 5 years on your FM3 before applying for citizenship - and be careful, I happily handed in my old FM3 (which is required after five years), and was left without any proof of five years residence . .. so COPY it before applying for your new FM3!

FM3's are probably the most widely discussed document on Baja Nomads - for everything *and more) than you ever wanted to know - just do a search.

Roberto

Huh?

Dave - 9-26-2007 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rob
and be careful, I happily handed in my old FM3 (which is required after five years), and was left without any proof of five years residence

When I traded in my FM3 for an FM2 info as to when I first received my FM3 was noted. Look carefully...It's not that way in yours?

rob - 9-27-2007 at 08:03 AM

Dave - you are probably right, but my FM3s have long since and very happily vanished into the depths of the Dept of Foreign Affairs . . . I just remember the panic when I realize Immigration now had my old FM3 and the easiest legal proof of tenure.

Mexrick - 10-2-2007 at 09:00 PM

DF= Districto Federal (Mexico City)

bajamigo - 10-3-2007 at 08:38 AM

Can you apply for citizenship after holding an FM-3 for five years, or must you do another 5 with an FM-2? And what exactly is "immigrado" status?

shari - 10-3-2007 at 08:56 AM

You can apply after 5 years no problema....not sure what immigrado means..ask Alonso his email is alonsobaja@prodigy.net.mx he is our agent and speaks english...good man

comitan - 10-3-2007 at 09:18 AM

Bajamigo,,
From what I have been able to learn about Inmigrado is that you have all the rights of a Mexican National except the right to vote. One other thing if you have Inmigrado status you cannot drive a foreign plated car, it can be confiscated. But if you have had the vehicle for the last five years you can petition the Gov. to use the car with foreign plates.

edinnopolo - 10-3-2007 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Bajamigo,,
From what I have been able to learn about Inmigrado is that you have all the rights of a Mexican National except the right to vote. One other thing if you have Inmigrado status you cannot drive a foreign plated car, it can be confiscated. But if you have had the vehicle for the last five years you can petition the Gov. to use the car with foreign plates.

Wife and I are inmigrados. True what Comitan states, but also includes, besides the unability to vote, the "NO" owning property outright . So, still need a fideo, no matter what. We were not properly informed.

Canadian Mexican Citizenship

Tiomiguel - 10-3-2007 at 03:52 PM

There is no problem with Canadian citizenship and Mexican. Canada like most countries of the world allows this and there is no requirement to file tax returns in Canada when you are a non-resident. She can come back to Canada whenever she wants no problema. The US is literally the only major country in the world that taxes its citizens regardless of where they reside. So you always have that tax return to file, even if you have no taxes that might be payable in the US.
Hope it comes through for you Shari.

Eli - 10-3-2007 at 07:34 PM

You are most correct Edinnopolo, As an Inmigrado, you still can't own property or vote and you are still required to report to Immigration all changes in your life, such as if you move, change jobs, do volunteer work, etc.

Still, with the Inmigrado status you are one step closer to becoming Nacionalizado as a Citizen if that is your desire to do so. Upon becoming naturalized, you have all rights as a Mexican except I don't think you can run for a political office.

Mexrick - 10-4-2007 at 09:15 AM

The reason you can't run for political office- at least for some of them- is that the office requires that the candidate be a Mexican citizen by birth. No naturalization allowed.

Mexrick - 10-4-2007 at 09:25 AM

Just in case anyone is interested, the process to naturalize has changed a bit. I heard stories about having to complete a 50 question test and sing the National Anthem of Mexico. Maybe so in La Paz (where they have always been a pain in the posterior) but not in DF. You are not given a Spanish speaking test but you need to know some Spanish just to complete the process. You are given a test consisting of five written questions (in Spanish, of course) that deal with the history, ecology, geography, culture, etc. of Mexico. Study things like where the Monarch butterflies are from, where the pyramids are located, they type of government Mexico has, who the President is, countries to the north and south of Mexico, etc.

It's not difficult... just the usual red tape. An attorney is a definite asset!!!

rob - 10-5-2007 at 08:12 AM

Mexrick nailed it - avoid the La Paz office if you possibly can!

DF is where everything is done anyway - the place to go for minimum hassle, greater speed of processing.