BajaNomad - Whole House Water Pump. 12v or 110?

Whole House Water Pump. 12v or 110?

BajaWarrior - 10-9-2007 at 05:04 PM

Hi all, getting ready to purchase a whole house water pump for our new home.

Saw some nice ones at Grainger.com and got some prices. 4TB35 for 110volt and 4YD37 for the 12V.

They are both about $300 each, both use the same amps, both deliver the same flow and both are adjustable for pressure.

The house is solar with a Trace 1500 watt Inverter and a bank of 20 6-volt batteries.

Should I bypass the inverter and go directly 12 volt? That is more effeciant, right? Obviously it would make sense if the inverter took a dump on a trip there...

Here in San Diego pumps are very difficult to get, there is not a big need for them so researching has been diffucult. I would prefer not to ship either.

BobandSusan showed me here on Nomad their nice set-up which is 110Volt. Sweet system. But this is the man with a hundred batteries...

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by BajaWarrior]

bajalou - 10-9-2007 at 06:27 PM

Several people here in San Felipe in solar areas have got rid of their 110V pumps and gone with 12V. Just as much water and uses less juice.

BajaWarrior - 10-9-2007 at 06:34 PM

Lou, what type are they using? RV Shurflo type or the accumilitave tank type?

bajalou - 10-9-2007 at 06:37 PM

RV type, Shurflo or FloJet with accumulator tanks.

BajaWarrior - 10-9-2007 at 07:10 PM

I checked out the Shurflo website. There are 5 differant types of Potable water pumps. The amperage ranges quite a bit, but the GPM stays about the same. The shutoff pressure varies a bit too.

What exactly is the shutoff pressure? One of the pumps only draws 1 amp while two others draw 5.5 amps...Would one be more noisy than the other?

On my current home I am running a Whisper King which I am happy with, but the amps are high. Too high to run multiple pumps.

I want to run separate pumps to each (2) bathrooms, and one just for the kitchen sink. It seems when we are about to leave, the dishes are being washed and everyone wants to take a shower including me before we hit the road. The extra one or two would also make nice backups in the event one goes down.

Minnow - 10-9-2007 at 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaWarrior

BobandSusan showed me here on Nomad their nice set-up which is 110Volt. Sweet system. But this is the man with a hundred batteries...

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by BajaWarrior]

Rotflamfasoff :lol:

Bajalero - 10-9-2007 at 07:19 PM

Quote:

What exactly is the shutoff pressure?

The highest presuure the pump creates before it triggers itself to turn off

Baja&Back - 10-9-2007 at 07:21 PM

Hmmm. Volt x Amps = Watts, right?
12 x 5.5amps = 66 watts.
110 x 5.5 amps = 605 watts
plus conversion loss in the inverter.

I'd go 12v.

Bob and Susan - 10-9-2007 at 07:31 PM

100 batteries...lets get real...
i have 76 batteries
oh yea...and 4 on the trailer

that's ONLY 80 :lol:

our 110 pump uses 7 amps
the ones in town for sale use 9 amps

it REALLY depends on what your 1500 watt inverter can handle in amps

our 4000w trace handles 30 amps
we now have three of these 400w trace inverters
so three diferent systems

the WHOLE trick is the pressure tank
DONT just use a water pump but
put the pump on top of a pressure tank

then a smaller pump would be just fine
the pressure tank takes up the slack for the small pump

its like an air compressor

the pump MUST "keep up" with the use though
if it doesnt your appliance might "run out of water"

remember a bigger pump runs LESS time
and thus takes less current

it's like a pool heater
a small one takes days to heat a pool
a BIG DOG takes just a few hours
thus using WAY less fuel

bottom line you NEED a bigger inverter and more batteries :light:

if you want to play you HAVE to pay :lol:

Diver - 10-9-2007 at 07:55 PM

Anyone tried the variable speed Shurflows ?

BigWooo - 10-9-2007 at 07:57 PM

Wow!, while I was writing this there were 8 responses! Oh well, I’ll post anyway.

110-volt pumps will give you just about unlimited pressure and volume, but at the cost of energy use. If you have a big family, want to run multiple water sources simultaneously, and your system has enough energy output/battery storage a 110-volt pump would probably be preferable.

We have a Conergy 12v booster pump (about 4.3gpm) set at 20/40 psi, with a 90-gallon pressure tank (about 35 gallon draw down). We can shower and run the kitchen sink simultaneously, no problem. With the pressure tank full, we can run two showers simultaneously, however with the pressure tank low, or filling, we can still take two showers, but there is a noticeable pressure loss. If running one shower you can hardly tell if the pressure tank is full/low or filling.

In our old house we had a Surflow deluxe 12v pump, It didn’t perform as good as the Conergy pump we have now.

Unfortunately, being in San Diego, if you get a 12v pump, I think you’ll probably have to have it shipped. Look at http://backwoodssolar.com/ or http://store.solar-electric.com/ two of my favorite places to shop for solar stuff.

I looked at the 12v Grainger pump you mentioned and it has good gpm flow, but I think you’ll be disappointed with the size of the pressure tank. That looks like a 2-gallon tank (or smaller). That’s ok for a single point use, like a sink, but for an entire house, depending on your use, you will need between a 40 to a 110-gallon pressure tank to provide smooth pressure (an 80 gallon tank you’ll get about 30 gallons of water before the pump needs to kick on to refill it). With the tank Grainger provides, the pump will constantly be running when you open a faucet for any length of time. Also, with a tank that small, there may be fluctuations in pressure when the pump cycles causing water temp and pressure to vary up and down when you’re taking a shower.

One thing I’d be careful about is that Grainger says what size fuse they use (15 amps) but they don’t specify how much power the pump is actually drawing. The energy use will be less than 15 amps, but they don’t specify what. Also 15 amps at 12 volts does not equal 15 amps at 110 volts.

You need to convert amps to watts to truly compare the energy use of the pumps, using 15 amps for an example:

15 amps at 12 volts equal 180 watts used in one hour of running the pump,
15 amps at 110 volts equal 1650 watts used in one hour of running the pump.

That’s a BIG difference in energy use. Hope this was helpful and not confusing.

[Edited on 10-14-2007 by BigWooo]

BajaWarrior - 10-9-2007 at 08:03 PM

I'm planning on adding another invertor, basicaly, a second one. The old Trace just keeps on chugging along so why replace it, I'll just add another one and split the power between the old house, new house, and garage.

I've been limping along with a count of 12 batteries and we've done pretty good, so, I'm going for the fresh 20 this year.

Thanks BobandSusan, actually my very first post here on Nomad was the question of which type of water pump to get, thanks again for the info. Go for the recount on the batteries, include the trucks, cars , boats, golf cart, atv's, you'll come up with a hundred!

Thanks Bajalero, that's what I thought.

Thanks Baja&Back, good math to live by.

Minnow, HUH?

BigWoo, thanks for taking the time...good stuff.

Keep em' coming gang.

[Edited on 10-10-2007 by BajaWarrior]

wornout - 10-9-2007 at 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diver
Anyone tried the variable speed Shurflows ?

I have one and don't really like it. It works fine but is drawing power all the time. It throttles up slowly which is nice. I run two 30 gallon pressure tanks. I got one of them with the 110v pump I got from Sears years ago and the other one was given to me. I switch between the 12v and the 110v depending on if the generator is on, like when I pressure wash something.

Al G - 10-9-2007 at 10:01 PM

In your new batteries consider 2 volt cells...despite what has been said, 2 volt batteries represents the most economical and least wiring of all...12 volt batteries...the worst possible construction technique. IMHO
A 2v battery @ 20 hr rate is 2040 AH.......328 lb weight...20" deep 8 1/2" wide 26 1/2" high about 30 sq feet floor space...=12 volts
@12 volts=12240 AH @20 hrs rate...cost $8500
@24 volts=24480 AH @ 20hrs rate Cost $17,000
$0.69.5 cents per amp hr. for 20 years.........
Fill 432 cells with water :barf:

FILL 48 CELLS WITH WATER.... :lol:

Bob and Susan - 10-10-2007 at 05:04 AM

if you finally go the 12v be sure to remember to use a thick cable to the pump...
about as thick as your thumb...for ANY distance

the wire gets HOT with the smaller voltage

110v you can use smaller cables to the pump

Bob and Susan - 10-10-2007 at 05:08 AM

i bought stuff at grainger

ordered it and had it shipped to the store
then picked it up

no problem

BajaWarrior - 10-10-2007 at 03:16 PM

I still like your pump Bob and Susan, it would be nice if it was as easy as just going to the hardware store and picking one up.

I hate ordering stuff, I need to touch it then process it before purchasing it.

Thanks for the tip on the wire guage, already thinking that. Pump(s) will be within 10' of power plant.

Even the Romex i'm running is 12/2, hard on the ole' fingers stuffing it back into the gang box, plus it increased the cost of our outlets. It isn't as pliable (sp?) as the 14/2.

BigWooo - 10-10-2007 at 04:20 PM

Here's a link to some charts that can help determine what wire size you need for the pump, or anything else:

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-volt_drop.html

Bob and Susan - 10-10-2007 at 07:11 PM

our pumps arrived today...

no water pressure shortage here :lol:

BajaWarrior - 10-10-2007 at 07:53 PM

Nice Bob, I take it your putting one in for each of your units.

I just checked the Flotec website. I'm guessing those are the 15 gallon models. Not seeing any prices, how much $? Saw the one that has a 42 gallon tank also, it is 230 volt but says it can be converted back to 110.

Bob and Susan - 10-11-2007 at 05:54 AM

yes they have 42 gal tank

1/2 horse
9 amps at 110v
4.5 amps at 220v

110v or 220v

available everywhere in baja

these were a deal at $350 each but we bought 6 units
purchased in mulege

i've seen them at the hardware stores here in town for $450

lots of water pressure here...
i think when you take a shower you should be able to "pressure wash" those fish guts OFF :lol:

[Edited on 10-11-2007 by Bob and Susan]

BajaWarrior - 10-11-2007 at 08:15 PM

Bob,

Would be so kind as to post the model number for those pumps please so I may compare with other models?

Thanks, BW

Bob and Susan - 10-11-2007 at 08:20 PM

sure tomorrow...too dark now

Sharksbaja - 10-11-2007 at 10:39 PM

Casa Yee?

JZ - 10-11-2007 at 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
the WHOLE trick is the pressure tank
DONT just use a water pump but
put the pump on top of a pressure tank

Do you sacrifice pressure, volume by using a tank instead of just the pump.

Bob and Susan - 10-12-2007 at 05:02 AM

the pump has 1 inch piping
the house 1/2 inch normally up to 3/4 inch
if there is a volume loss you don't notice it

the tank gives you about 5-6 gallons BEFORE the pump turns on
and gives you a better pressure regulated flow

also it keeps pressure in the lines like regular USA waer service to avoid "sucking air" thru faucets if you have a lousy pump or backflow device

our tanks are underground and do not provide ANY pressure tothe casitas

BajaWarrior - 10-13-2007 at 05:18 PM

Hi Bob, when conveniant would you please jot down then post that model number to the pump please?

Thanks, BW

Bob and Susan - 10-13-2007 at 07:18 PM

here it is...

motor.jpg - 40kB

Pescador - 10-18-2007 at 06:34 AM

I have a friend here in San Bruno that runs his entire house with a Shurflo pump, but he wore out a variable pump and Shurflo recommended that he go with the heavy duty washdown pump. He has now had that pump in for a year and it has performed perfectly. I found the best prices here:
http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/customer/home.php

I have a spare one if you are in the Santa Rosalia Area and need one right away.

BajaWarrior - 10-18-2007 at 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
I have a friend here in San Bruno that runs his entire house with a Shurflo pump, but he wore out a variable pump and Shurflo recommended that he go with the heavy duty washdown pump. He has now had that pump in for a year and it has performed perfectly. I found the best prices here:
http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/customer/home.php

I have a spare one if you are in the Santa Rosalia Area and need one right away.

Thanks Pescador,

just doing my homework while we are still in "pre-finishing touches" to our new home. Bob gave me some good ideas and I actually talked to a rep from Shurflo about pressurized tanks. Still gathering, considering going 12volt directly to the battery and bypassing the invertor.

Roughing in the electrical, drains, water, and starting drywall this weekend, in fact, leaving in 40 minutes from now.

Back on Tuesday, have a great weekend everyone!

BW