BajaNomad - To race or not to race that is the question

To race or not to race that is the question

Al G - 10-21-2007 at 07:05 AM

A recent post about a group of off road racers trying to protect their right to race across Baja, started an internal debate that has gone on for a couple of days.
In the seventies I raced every Saturday night...on a NASCAR promoted track. The noise and pollution did not go unnoticed long. The track and racers battled with the neighborhood for decades...lost the battle recently. The results of this battle was far reaching. There is no type of racing...auto, motorcycle, quad or anything else allowed in that area today...including unpopulated rural areas.
I know there are several off road racers on this board and what I feel at this point is not going to set well with them...infact I feel their form of racing is so destructive, it should not be supported. It will eventually cost all types of off road adventure, the ability to exist, because other types are destructive too...just not near as destructive as racing and no fan base to support either.
We are not just talking road use here...
I applaud the efforts to repair and maintain the areas...but education of the participants and fans/viewers is just as, if not more important.
It is extremely difficult to teach respect to a fan base that the vast majority is under 30 years old.
Off road racing is not a contained...controlled sport, so it will not be long before they find, they have no place to race and does not matter what efforts they make.
When the populous puts a stop to off road racing...flustration will cause them to stop all forms of off road use.
I hate to put it as " it is you or me", but that is what it boils down to...not good.
What do you think?

Barry A. - 10-21-2007 at 09:14 AM

Al-------

There is a great deal of truth in what you say here, but I believe you have exagerated what will happen down the line concerning "off road" travel/racing. As a previous manager for 13 years (1973 to 1986) for BLM in El Centro I do know somewhat of what I speak.

First, there is relatively little actual "off road" travel, either in racing or in general----------by far the most use of "off road capable" vehicles is actually ON existing roads and trails, thank Gawd. Even in those areas that have been set aside by Govt. agencies for the use of off road vehicles (so called "open" areas) have received much less "abuse" than was originally thought would happen. I just toured portions of the Ocatillo Wells ORV open area two weeks ago, and was pleasantly surprised to see that most travel was on existing trails and not helter-skelter all over the place, in most cases at least. Also I was surprised to find that there was very little (but some) spill over of abuse into the adjacent Anza-Borrego Desert State Park. All these examples to me are signs that the public IS learning, and most are acting fairly responsibly in their use of their off-road capable vehicles.

This is not to say that we don't still have problems, but I do think that they are much less than was anticipated back when the California Desert Plan was implemented by BLM, etc., to the credit of the Off road vehicle participants and clubs.

Contrary to the beliefs of some, BLM made considerable effort to accomodate the Off Road vehicle crowd, and I believe was largely successful.

But you are essentially correct when you point out that there will ALWAYS be considerable pressure from anti-vehicle groups to abolish ANY use of off road vehicles, and the Off Road groups and individuals must constantly remain vigilant and active to protect their interests. The singly most helpful thing that the Off Road crowd can do is to remain "responsible" in their use of the public lands, both in Mexico and the USA, and actively guard against "abuse" of the lands by anybody, including the racers.

Hopefully the two "groups" of folks can live with compromise for many years to come.

barry

ncampion - 10-21-2007 at 09:18 AM

Check this thread. They have the right idea, better to be proactive than to be constantly fighting a losing battle against land closure like we are doing in the US.

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=27535

TacoFeliz - 10-21-2007 at 10:16 AM

"Bushwhacking" is driving across open untracked country.

Off road racing is done on established backroads and trails, with an emphasis on staying on those dirt roads and trails. After 40 or so years of Baja racing, there has been very little impact to the countryside other than some noise, deeper ruts and taller berms. A drop in the bucket compared to terraforming hillsides and coastlines for a new condo development, hotel or marina.

Just my humble opinion, based on 35+ years of Baja and western U.S. backroad travel.

TMW - 10-21-2007 at 10:37 AM

I think the race itself is contained as to where it goes. It uses existing roads, trails and washes. The Baja Mexican government approves all race courses as do the land owners that it goes across. When the land owner objects the race could be moved as was the case in San Felipe this year and who was the loser there? The San Felipe businesses and in affect the people that work there. Off-Road racing in Baja brings in a lot of money. I think the down side is it also brings in a lot of trash to the country side. That will only be corrected by education. SCORE, CODE and all other promoters must keep reminding everyone to clean up after themselves, haul out what you haul in and maybe a little more. There also needs to be open communications between the land owners, race promoters, business owners and enviroment groups.

Al we lost a raceway here too, Mesa Marin closed because of noise. People bought a home near it then started complaining about the Sat night noise.
Now they're building a new 1/2 mile asphalt track out near I-5 that will open next year.

Minnow - 10-21-2007 at 12:05 PM

What happened to my post?

Al G - 10-21-2007 at 12:08 PM

Your responses have helped to ease the conflict I feel as I am a racer at heart...sitting here watching the start of Martinville NASCAR 500 shows that.
I think what set me off was this group(thread posted above by Nchampion) was more focused on "no more" money for land owners. I understand to a point, but if you want to play you will pay. This is more of a promoter issue, but when they do not step up, the racer surely does. I would think the focus would be on teaching people, the importance of cleanup and land respect. You could form a group for this issue and force the promoter to advertise to the Mexican fans...
In the scheme of things the promoter should be repairing and negotiating with the ranchers.
I have had some experience with promoters telling the racer if you want to race then you must do this...so he can make more money!
I am not saying this group is bad or what they want to do won't help, but education of the fan would do more to preserve the race then doing the promoter's job. I am sure someone could figure out how the average racer could educate the Mexican fan and police the American fan.
This really started when I realized the the 1000 would pass close to Todos Santos, as it is full of do gooders(is not a bad thing) and there is a good chance they will have an issue and start a firestorm over all offroading.

Minnow - 10-21-2007 at 12:17 PM

Al, since most of the fans are Mexican, at the Baja races, you would need to change their cultural imperative of throwing their garbage where ever they damn well please.

So you know, by the time the race gets to Todos Santos it is going to be quite boring to watch. Race traffic and race crowds will be minimal. I doubt most of those there will even realize a race went by.

As far as the landowners getting paid, they do. It is just in SF the Ejido got greedy and screwed it up for the whole town.

mtgoat666 - 10-21-2007 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

What do you think?

the trash and eroded roads left after off-road races is disgusting. even more disgusting is irresponsible off-roaders destroying land. the irresponsible off-roaders will ruin it for all -- and i say if you can't control the bad eggs, then better to ban them all.

Minnow - 10-21-2007 at 12:20 PM

Another far lefty who thinks humanity should be exterminated to save the whales. :lol:

Al G - 10-21-2007 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Minnow
Al, since most of the fans are Mexican, at the Baja races, you would need to change their cultural imperative of throwing their garbage where ever they damn well please.

So you know, by the time the race gets to Todos Santos it is going to be quite boring to watch. Race traffic and race crowds will be minimal. I doubt most of those there will even realize a race went by.

As far as the landowners getting paid, they do. It is just in SF the Ejido got greedy and screwed it up for the whole town.

Thanks for the insight me-no...

Al G - 10-21-2007 at 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G

What do you think?

You are definitely the type of whiner I feel we must defeat...
Edit: to highlight what I was referring to

[Edited on 10-21-2007 by Al G]

motoged - 10-21-2007 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TacoFeliz
"Bushwhacking" is driving across open untracked country.

Off road racing is done on established backroads and trails, with an emphasis on staying on those dirt roads and trails. After 40 or so years of Baja racing, there has been very little impact to the countryside other than some noise, deeper ruts and taller berms. A drop in the bucket compared to terraforming hillsides and coastlines for a new condo development, hotel or marina.

Just my humble opinion, based on 35+ years of Baja and western U.S. backroad travel.

Nomads,
This reflects my opinion. I believe that golf courses on the Peninsula are far more outrageous in terms of environmental impact, at least in terms of the water that could otherwise be used for agriculture (can you say, "Where does my food come from?").

The racers stay to the course, other off-roaders try to stay to established trails/routes so as to avoid cactus and other road hazards (the hard-core bushwhackers in Baja are few and far between).

The spectators for Baja off-road races are predominantly locals (some of whom take great pleasure in setting up course booby-traps [barbed wire at neck height, deeper hidden pits], and the locals tend to have poor basura habits).

Does this "anti-off-road" sentiment suggest that David K. has to stop driving all over Shell Beach??? :lol:

There will always be yahoos who love to tear up the terrain....and these tend to be the uncontrolled operators that wreck the countryside. Responsible drivers/riders want to come back and enjoy the experience again, so they tend to take care of their playground.....but there are always exceptions to any generalization.

:?:

What is being suggested here? Stay to the pavement? Stay only on established routes that the locals also use (much of the race courses fit into this category) :?:

I am convinced that responsible off-roading is not only possible....it is being done.

What about the "visitors" doing unnecessary fishing in Baja waters....Does any Baja "visitor" need to kill a Marlin in order to eat??? While fishing is enjoyable, and supports the local economies, is it truly any more justifiable than off-roading??

I dunno....but doubt it. While two "wrongs" don't make a "right", there may be a question here of how the "land" will be used.

Condo developments, golf-courses, damaged estuaries, depleted water sources....is THAT progress that is justifiable??

Topics such as this will draw out our differences and, perhaps, our similarities....so the thread will be interesting. :yes:

Ged

Barry A. - 10-21-2007 at 01:15 PM

MtGoat666------

That kind of "thinking" (?) is what I have spent my entire law enforcement career trying to head off--------makeing laws to control the few, that end up punishing the many--------

This is faulty, and totally unfair, and simply will not work in the long run--------you end up teeing everybody off, the result being that mostly nobody obeys the law.

Good law enforcement catches and punishes the guilty, and leaves the innocent alone.

Again, you cannot/should not legislate against the majority to punish the few.

Minnow - 10-21-2007 at 01:23 PM

Paging Barry A. Someone stole your ID, or somehow I agree with you>

Somehow I don't think 666 cares though. :fire:

Motoged. Ditto

Al G - 10-21-2007 at 01:31 PM

I am not discussing rights of one thing (sport) over another...offroad racing will be viewed as the most destructive whether it is or not.
I am discussing what else can be done to help it from going down the tube and taking other off road sports or....giving the extremist a whipping post to attack other sports...bicycle...motorcycle etc.....

bajaandy - 10-21-2007 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I am discussing what else can be done to help it from going down the tube and taking other off road sports or...

Just my opinion, but I believe there is only one thing that will ensure the longevity of off-roading:

MONEY

On Edit: What on earth made me reply to this particular topic after not posting for such a long time?

[Edited on 10-21-2007 by bajaandy]

The million $$$ question

Sharksbaja - 10-21-2007 at 06:04 PM

Quote:

Condo developments, golf-courses, damaged estuaries, depleted water sources....is THAT progress that is justifiable??

That depends who has money in it. Ching Ching! :mad:

Roberto - 10-21-2007 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
even more disgusting is irresponsible off-roaders destroying land. the irresponsible off-roaders will ruin it for all

I hope this doesn't go where I think it might, but, Please explain how off-roaders destroy the land. Please provide specific examples based on what actually happens. As an intro, let me say this.

Baja has very few paved roads (duh!) compared to what we are used to in the U.S., and even compared to Mainland Mexico. But, people who live there have to get places, and because of that, there are LOTS of dirt roads, used by the local folks every day. THIS is where the Baja races are run. If you think that's destroying the land, let me point out that, in most of the rest of the world, those dirt roads would have been paved LONG ago.

So, please explain how Baja racers racing on local roads is destroying the land.

Barry A. - 10-21-2007 at 06:35 PM

Roberto------

Have you ever driven a pickup with camper down one of those dirt roads after a race has gone thru? Not a fun experience, and really slow, and can really damage your vehicle (whoop-de-doos)-------I know, as it has happened to me-----cannot immagine what the locals do having to travel those roads often.

Those whoops did about $1500 worth of damage (cracked the superstructure) to my truck even tho I was barely moving.

Roberto - 10-21-2007 at 06:48 PM

Barry, have you ever been to one of the score races? And I'm talking about some of the more remote places? Have you observed just how much the local folk love these events?

As far as your misadventure there's a simple solution - slow down and don't drive beyond yours and your vehicle's capabilities.

(sorry, couldn't resist) :lol:

bajalou - 10-21-2007 at 07:25 PM

Very very rare to see the Mexican locals complaining about the races. They love them. Complainers are the gringo's that moved in and now want Baja to be like the US city they got away from.

Sharksbaja - 10-21-2007 at 07:40 PM

Exactamente Lou!!

Barry A. - 10-21-2007 at 08:31 PM

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, and you are right! all of you. And yes, I have been to a SCORE race, and I enjoyed it profoundly.

STILL-------those bloody whoops are HORRIBLE, especially when you have no choice but to travel over them.

When you have a truck as heavy as mine, there IS no prudent speed over those damn whoops---------and I sure scream and cuss a lot as the truck torques itself to death with loud snaps and crackles.

Jeeeeeeeso, it's bad.

: fire:

motoged - 10-21-2007 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, and you are right!

When you have a truck as heavy as mine, there IS no prudent speed over those damn whoops---------

Barry ,
Thanks for letting us in on what your post is really about :lol:

!

Clearly the problem is you and your trucking....

Gentlemen, start your engines..... :coolup:

Ged

Dave - 10-21-2007 at 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
Very very rare to see the Mexican locals complaining about the races. They love them. Complainers are the gringo's that moved in and now want Baja to be like the US city they got away from.

That's an unfair critique. While there will always be course modifications, the areas that generally host offroad racing are well worn. The majority of gringos who buy near established race routes are fans. The few that aren't are clueless, indefensible idiots.

David K - 10-21-2007 at 09:46 PM

High tide (twice a day) erases my one pair of tracks going to my camp on Shell Island... :bounce:

astrobaja - 10-22-2007 at 06:07 AM

Ok well we just bought land (1200 acres of it) where the race goes through on a regular basis, are we huge race fans? No not really, its a cool part of Baja tradition, and of course it brings a huge amount of money to the penninsula!
I think the observation that ALL locals love the event is slightly off base though, the local ranchers tolerate the event because thats the way a lot of Mexcans are, ie tolerant and accomodating, much more so than the average American or Canadian!
We will be sinking around $10,000 or so into road improvements (our laneway is 6km long) I'm not so sure I want the racers tearing it up every time the 250, 500, or 1000 goes through! If it were just the race days I would say fine but its all the pre-running. A few bad apple racers are downright rude to the ranchers land rights, Andy Meling was practically run off the road a year or so ago and he scratched up his new truck pretty badly, he was very annoyed!
It comes down to the fact that the racers are just one special interest group that wants a certain type of land use, the glory years of where the racers could just do what they wanted is probably coming to an end, they will have to start working together much more closely with landowners if they want to maintain traditional race routes! My Wife and I want to start a Astronomy/Naturalist B&B in the mountains, so for us its all about serene peace and quiet, if we let the racers go through our property they better damn well respect our desires and pay for road maintenance!

just my 2 cents as a landowner!

Dave - 10-22-2007 at 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by astrobaja
I think the observation that ALL locals love the event is slightly off base though, the local ranchers tolerate the event because thats the way a lot of Mexcans are, ie tolerant and accomodating, much more so than the average American or Canadian!

My comment wasn't meant for locals. Just gringos who buy near race routes.

They aren't and likely will never be, locals. :lol:

wilderone - 10-22-2007 at 02:35 PM

Roberto, open the sites below to understand what the offroad "enthusiasts" have in store for Baja, CA. It's not just about the road itself. And you can't tell me that 1000 vehicles over 3 days on the race route in the back country will have no impact. Prove it otherwise- take before and after photos and post them.
And you can find many, many more sites depicting the damage, explaining the longterm effects of offroad vehicle use. These drivers are a world away from understanding the damage they cause or appreciating the wilderness areas they are in. Now they want to invade Baja, CA. Why would their MO be any different?

http://www.suwa.org/site/PhotoAlbumUser?view=UserAlbum&A...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wildlandscpr/415299088

http://www.voiceforthewild.org/mbnf/news/n30may01.html

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2001/2001-03-09-06.asp

http://oregon.sierraclub.org/conserv/hidsrt/vehicle.asp

http://www.naturaltrails.org/VroomReport/vroom2002/4-2-02.ht...

David K - 10-22-2007 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, and you are right! all of you. And yes, I have been to a SCORE race, and I enjoyed it profoundly.

STILL-------those bloody whoops are HORRIBLE, especially when you have no choice but to travel over them.

When you have a truck as heavy as mine, there IS no prudent speed over those damn whoops---------and I sure scream and cuss a lot as the truck torques itself to death with loud snaps and crackles.

Jeeeeeeeso, it's bad.

: fire:

Hi Barry, I know the section you are speaking of, the 8 miles just north of Arroyo Matomi in the south end of Valle Chico...

I have been using that road since 1978 and it has always been all whoops because it is 'cross grain', however it has gotten worse (deeper whoops) over the years... the racing (SF 250, Baja 1000) seems to have made it worse, but flash floods are probably the bigger culpret... Do you think?

Ultimately it is up to Mexico to regulate the races if they want to, but wouldn't it be nice if SCORE cleaned and repaired the roads so the racing can continue without a need for government involvement?

PJC - 10-23-2007 at 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
As a previous manager for 13 years (1973 to 1986) for BLM in El Centro I do know somewhat of what I speak.

Barry, I sat on the BLM RAC in my locale for a 3 year stint. It was one of the most worthwhile things I have done for my off-road community. At the end of my stint we did have more (good) regulation and we had *more* races and we were looking forward to the creation of the Nellis Dunes park and vast, maintained trail systems near home and in the eastern part of the state. One I have more free time, and as the "permitted recreation" RAC spot opens, I plan to get back at it.

Quote:

This is not to say that we don't still have problems, but I do think that they are much less than was anticipated back when the California Desert Plan was implemented by BLM, etc., to the credit of the Off road vehicle participants and clubs.

That is great to hear! Now, if we can get the BLM to grade Bessemer Mine Rd.. :-)

Quote:

Contrary to the beliefs of some, BLM made considerable effort to accommodate the Off Road vehicle crowd, and I believe was largely successful.

In Nevada, I say that "most all" BLM staff sincerely worked their mission statement which accommodates off-road vehicles on public lands. Many were pro-supportive and just a few were loud dissidents against our liberties.

Cheers

PJC - 10-23-2007 at 08:46 AM

The "goat devil worshiper" (mtgoat666) and Wilderone are prime examples of the fading eco-facist crowd.

When I worked on the BLM RAC, we had to let these cretins in at the end of the meeting to make patent fools of themselves.

Al G - 10-23-2007 at 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PJC
The "goat devil worshiper" (mtgoat666) and Wilderone are prime examples of the fading eco-facist crowd.

When I worked on the BLM RAC, we had to let these cretins in at the end of the meeting to make patent fools of themselves.

PJC...They already know who and what they are...so calling by name will not do any good :no:

It is still a good call though.... :lol:

Al G - 10-23-2007 at 09:25 AM

PJC... I still feel your group should make education your priority over all else...at minimum hand Spanish flier to warn they will loose racing as a sport if they lack respect...consult with a Mexican enthusiast group to help get your point across to limit impact on lands and feelings.

Minnow - 10-23-2007 at 09:48 AM

Seems they are doing more than that Al. They are going around and actually talking with Ranchers and addressing their concerns.

capt. mike - 10-23-2007 at 04:37 PM

if the mexicans didn't want to have the races in their country...........they wouldn't.
they like the sport, they like the money it brings to their economies, they participate at all levels.....
its THEIR land.........why do so many non citizens want to control lands they have no business with??

and if any body thinks a bunch of random roads and trails running willy nilly thru the baja countryside causes an eco disaster or other needs to see them from 10,000 ft as i have, every square frickin inch. its a non event in proportion to the amount of tierra there is!!

and they , the locals, use these roads all the time.

what a bunch of hooey....... :lol: