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Al G
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Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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To race or not to race that is the question
A recent post about a group of off road racers trying to protect their right to race across Baja, started an internal debate that has gone on for a
couple of days.
In the seventies I raced every Saturday night...on a NASCAR promoted track. The noise and pollution did not go unnoticed long. The track and racers
battled with the neighborhood for decades...lost the battle recently. The results of this battle was far reaching. There is no type of racing...auto,
motorcycle, quad or anything else allowed in that area today...including unpopulated rural areas.
I know there are several off road racers on this board and what I feel at this point is not going to set well with them...infact I feel their form of
racing is so destructive, it should not be supported. It will eventually cost all types of off road adventure, the ability to exist, because other
types are destructive too...just not near as destructive as racing and no fan base to support either.
We are not just talking road use here...
I applaud the efforts to repair and maintain the areas...but education of the participants and fans/viewers is just as, if not more important.
It is extremely difficult to teach respect to a fan base that the vast majority is under 30 years old.
Off road racing is not a contained...controlled sport, so it will not be long before they find, they have no place to race and does not matter what
efforts they make.
When the populous puts a stop to off road racing...flustration will cause them to stop all forms of off road use.
I hate to put it as " it is you or me", but that is what it boils down to...not good.
What do you think?
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Barry A.
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Al-------
There is a great deal of truth in what you say here, but I believe you have exagerated what will happen down the line concerning "off road"
travel/racing. As a previous manager for 13 years (1973 to 1986) for BLM in El Centro I do know somewhat of what I speak.
First, there is relatively little actual "off road" travel, either in racing or in general----------by far the most use of "off road capable" vehicles
is actually ON existing roads and trails, thank Gawd. Even in those areas that have been set aside by Govt. agencies for the use of off road vehicles
(so called "open" areas) have received much less "abuse" than was originally thought would happen. I just toured portions of the Ocatillo Wells ORV
open area two weeks ago, and was pleasantly surprised to see that most travel was on existing trails and not helter-skelter all over the place, in
most cases at least. Also I was surprised to find that there was very little (but some) spill over of abuse into the adjacent Anza-Borrego Desert
State Park. All these examples to me are signs that the public IS learning, and most are acting fairly responsibly in their use of their off-road
capable vehicles.
This is not to say that we don't still have problems, but I do think that they are much less than was anticipated back when the California Desert Plan
was implemented by BLM, etc., to the credit of the Off road vehicle participants and clubs.
Contrary to the beliefs of some, BLM made considerable effort to accomodate the Off Road vehicle crowd, and I believe was largely successful.
But you are essentially correct when you point out that there will ALWAYS be considerable pressure from anti-vehicle groups to abolish ANY use of off
road vehicles, and the Off Road groups and individuals must constantly remain vigilant and active to protect their interests. The singly most helpful
thing that the Off Road crowd can do is to remain "responsible" in their use of the public lands, both in Mexico and the USA, and actively guard
against "abuse" of the lands by anybody, including the racers.
Hopefully the two "groups" of folks can live with compromise for many years to come.
barry
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ncampion
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Check this thread. They have the right idea, better to be proactive than to be constantly fighting a losing battle against land closure like we are
doing in the US.
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=27535
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TacoFeliz
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"Bushwhacking" is driving across open untracked country.
Off road racing is done on established backroads and trails, with an emphasis on staying on those dirt roads and trails. After 40 or so years of Baja
racing, there has been very little impact to the countryside other than some noise, deeper ruts and taller berms. A drop in the bucket compared to
terraforming hillsides and coastlines for a new condo development, hotel or marina.
Just my humble opinion, based on 35+ years of Baja and western U.S. backroad travel.
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TMW
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I think the race itself is contained as to where it goes. It uses existing roads, trails and washes. The Baja Mexican government approves all race
courses as do the land owners that it goes across. When the land owner objects the race could be moved as was the case in San Felipe this year and who
was the loser there? The San Felipe businesses and in affect the people that work there. Off-Road racing in Baja brings in a lot of money. I think the
down side is it also brings in a lot of trash to the country side. That will only be corrected by education. SCORE, CODE and all other promoters must
keep reminding everyone to clean up after themselves, haul out what you haul in and maybe a little more. There also needs to be open communications
between the land owners, race promoters, business owners and enviroment groups.
Al we lost a raceway here too, Mesa Marin closed because of noise. People bought a home near it then started complaining about the Sat night noise.
Now they're building a new 1/2 mile asphalt track out near I-5 that will open next year.
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Minnow
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What happened to my post?
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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Your responses have helped to ease the conflict I feel as I am a racer at heart...sitting here watching the start of Martinville NASCAR 500 shows
that.
I think what set me off was this group(thread posted above by Nchampion) was more focused on "no more" money for land owners. I understand to a point,
but if you want to play you will pay. This is more of a promoter issue, but when they do not step up, the racer surely does. I would think the focus
would be on teaching people, the importance of cleanup and land respect. You could form a group for this issue and force the promoter to advertise to
the Mexican fans...
In the scheme of things the promoter should be repairing and negotiating with the ranchers.
I have had some experience with promoters telling the racer if you want to race then you must do this...so he can make more money!
I am not saying this group is bad or what they want to do won't help, but education of the fan would do more to preserve the race then doing the
promoter's job. I am sure someone could figure out how the average racer could educate the Mexican fan and police the American fan.
This really started when I realized the the 1000 would pass close to Todos Santos, as it is full of do gooders(is not a bad thing) and there is a good
chance they will have an issue and start a firestorm over all offroading.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Minnow
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Al, since most of the fans are Mexican, at the Baja races, you would need to change their cultural imperative of throwing their garbage where ever
they damn well please.
So you know, by the time the race gets to Todos Santos it is going to be quite boring to watch. Race traffic and race crowds will be minimal. I
doubt most of those there will even realize a race went by.
As far as the landowners getting paid, they do. It is just in SF the Ejido got greedy and screwed it up for the whole town.
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
What do you think? |
the trash and eroded roads left after off-road races is disgusting. even more disgusting is irresponsible off-roaders destroying land. the
irresponsible off-roaders will ruin it for all -- and i say if you can't control the bad eggs, then better to ban them all.
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Minnow
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Another far lefty who thinks humanity should be exterminated to save the whales. 
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Minnow
Al, since most of the fans are Mexican, at the Baja races, you would need to change their cultural imperative of throwing their garbage where ever
they damn well please.
So you know, by the time the race gets to Todos Santos it is going to be quite boring to watch. Race traffic and race crowds will be minimal. I
doubt most of those there will even realize a race went by.
As far as the landowners getting paid, they do. It is just in SF the Ejido got greedy and screwed it up for the whole town.
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Thanks for the insight me-no...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
What do you think? |
the trash and eroded roads left after off-road races is disgusting. even more disgusting is irresponsible off-roaders destroying land. the
irresponsible off-roaders will ruin it for all -- and i say if you can't control the bad eggs, then better to ban them all.
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You are definitely the type of whiner I feel we must defeat...
Edit: to highlight what I was referring to
[Edited on 10-21-2007 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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motoged
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TacoFeliz
"Bushwhacking" is driving across open untracked country.
Off road racing is done on established backroads and trails, with an emphasis on staying on those dirt roads and trails. After 40 or so years of Baja
racing, there has been very little impact to the countryside other than some noise, deeper ruts and taller berms. A drop in the bucket compared to
terraforming hillsides and coastlines for a new condo development, hotel or marina.
Just my humble opinion, based on 35+ years of Baja and western U.S. backroad travel. |
Nomads,
This reflects my opinion. I believe that golf courses on the Peninsula are far more outrageous in terms of environmental impact, at least in terms of
the water that could otherwise be used for agriculture (can you say, "Where does my food come from?").
The racers stay to the course, other off-roaders try to stay to established trails/routes so as to avoid cactus and other road hazards (the hard-core
bushwhackers in Baja are few and far between).
The spectators for Baja off-road races are predominantly locals (some of whom take great pleasure in setting up course booby-traps [barbed wire at
neck height, deeper hidden pits], and the locals tend to have poor basura habits).
Does this "anti-off-road" sentiment suggest that David K. has to stop driving all over Shell Beach???
There will always be yahoos who love to tear up the terrain....and these tend to be the uncontrolled operators that wreck the countryside.
Responsible drivers/riders want to come back and enjoy the experience again, so they tend to take care of their playground.....but there are always
exceptions to any generalization.
 What is being suggested here? Stay to the pavement? Stay only on
established routes that the locals also use (much of the race courses fit into this category)
I am convinced that responsible off-roading is not only possible....it is being done.
What about the "visitors" doing unnecessary fishing in Baja waters....Does any Baja "visitor" need to kill a Marlin in order to eat??? While fishing
is enjoyable, and supports the local economies, is it truly any more justifiable than off-roading??
I dunno....but doubt it. While two "wrongs" don't make a "right", there may be a question here of how the "land" will be used.
Condo developments, golf-courses, damaged estuaries, depleted water sources....is THAT progress that is justifiable??
Topics such as this will draw out our differences and, perhaps, our similarities....so the thread will be interesting.
Ged
Don't believe everything you think....
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Barry A.
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Location: Redding, Northern CA
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MtGoat666------
That kind of "thinking" (?) is what I have spent my entire law enforcement career trying to head off--------makeing laws to control the few, that end
up punishing the many--------
This is faulty, and totally unfair, and simply will not work in the long run--------you end up teeing everybody off, the result being that mostly
nobody obeys the law.
Good law enforcement catches and punishes the guilty, and leaves the innocent alone.
Again, you cannot/should not legislate against the majority to punish the few.
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Minnow
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Paging Barry A. Someone stole your ID, or somehow I agree with you>
Somehow I don't think 666 cares though.
Motoged. Ditto
Proud husband of a legal immigrant.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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I am not discussing rights of one thing (sport) over another...offroad racing will be viewed as the most destructive whether it is or not.
I am discussing what else can be done to help it from going down the tube and taking other off road sports or....giving the extremist a whipping post
to attack other sports...bicycle...motorcycle etc.....
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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bajaandy
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Location: North County
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
I am discussing what else can be done to help it from going down the tube and taking other off road sports or... |
Just my opinion, but I believe there is only one thing that will ensure the longevity of off-roading:
MONEY
On Edit: What on earth made me reply to this particular topic after not posting for such a long time?
[Edited on 10-21-2007 by bajaandy]
subvert the dominant paradigm
"If you travel with a man, you must either fall out with him or make him your good friend."
JBL Noel
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Sharksbaja
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The million $$$ question
| Quote: |
Condo developments, golf-courses, damaged estuaries, depleted water sources....is THAT progress that is justifiable??
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That depends who has money in it. Ching Ching!
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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Roberto
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mtgoat666
even more disgusting is irresponsible off-roaders destroying land. the irresponsible off-roaders will ruin it for all |
I hope this doesn't go where I think it might, but, Please explain how off-roaders destroy the land. Please provide specific examples based on what
actually happens. As an intro, let me say this.
Baja has very few paved roads (duh!) compared to what we are used to in the U.S., and even compared to Mainland Mexico. But, people who live there
have to get places, and because of that, there are LOTS of dirt roads, used by the local folks every day. THIS is where the Baja races are run. If you
think that's destroying the land, let me point out that, in most of the rest of the world, those dirt roads would have been paved LONG ago.
So, please explain how Baja racers racing on local roads is destroying the land.
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Barry A.
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Roberto------
Have you ever driven a pickup with camper down one of those dirt roads after a race has gone thru? Not a fun experience, and really slow, and can
really damage your vehicle (whoop-de-doos)-------I know, as it has happened to me-----cannot immagine what the locals do having to travel those roads
often.
Those whoops did about $1500 worth of damage (cracked the superstructure) to my truck even tho I was barely moving.
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