BajaNomad - gringo snobbery

gringo snobbery

DrTom - 10-26-2007 at 08:19 PM

whats with this gringo snobbery.....i know this woman who has a place in san miguel allende, lives most the time here and has a place there and kinda looks down her nose at me for building in cabo...."oh, cabo.......too crass for me"....hey, i surf and fish. Like living in "santa fe south" is authentic but baja isnt......ok the corridor isnt exactly national geographic but the desert and ocean is intense in baja.....then again i see the life in the dirt and water.

DENNIS - 10-26-2007 at 08:23 PM

Why do you let it bother you, Doc? Who's opinion counts to you? Hers or yours?

Al G - 10-26-2007 at 08:38 PM

CSL is not Baja :biggrin:

SMA v. CSL

Gypsy Jan - 10-26-2007 at 09:30 PM

Hi Doctor Tom,

San Miguel de Allende is an ancient historic city in the mountain highlands of Central Mexico with a reputation for arts and culture.

It is a destination of choice for many Europeans and American artists and authors (and a weekend party spot for obnoxious, irritating Chilangos, i.e. Mexico City yuppies.

Cabo San Lucas is an entity created out of whole cloth by the Mexica tourist bureacracy that is FONATUR. It only exists to lure tourist dollars.

Given the choice between the two, I would probably pick CSL to live in, way out of town, for the natural beauty and the ocean, and visit SMA for the arts and culture.

In re SMA, I can't get past the fact that the water aquifer there is so polluted that you must treat your tap water, even for a shower.

[Edited on 10-27-2007 by Gypsy Jan]

Sallysouth - 10-26-2007 at 09:44 PM

Yes Al G, CSL IS Baja.One just needs to venture out of the tourist zone to know that it is indeed not just tourists there.Mija lives there, as Jan says, way out of town and is raising my two beautiful bi- lingual grandaughters, working and living among the locals.There is more to CSL than you think.

Hey Sally,

Gypsy Jan - 10-26-2007 at 10:26 PM

You said what I was trying to say -- much better.

Check out the place you want to live, get to know the real people, avoid/ignore the self-entitled underminers that try to tell you what to do.

That is all.

lizard lips - 10-27-2007 at 07:10 AM

No Gypsy Jan, You did very well with your post! I go to San Miguel alot and you hit the nail on the head. I think SMA is one of the most beautiful places in Mexico but in the past 20 years because of the influx of Americans and Europeans it has changed to where I dont want to go back......Snobbery Dr. Tom, yes. My friends there think Ensenada is not Mexico. I just laugh and tell them at least we dont have to put up with the Chilangos who think they own all of Mexico.

HotSchott - 10-27-2007 at 07:33 AM

Um Lizard...The chilangos do own all of Mexico and a good size chunk of California Norte as well.

vandenberg - 10-27-2007 at 10:17 AM

Don't quite get the gringo fascination with San Miquel. A few years ago we traveled for 2 month through central Mexico and of all the old colonial cities we visited SM was the least interesting. Durango, Fresnillo, Zacatecas (especially), Guanajuato, Dolores Hidalgo, Queretaro all have her beat by a mile. And another plus was, hardly any gringos.

Al G - 10-27-2007 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sallysouth
Yes Al G, CSL IS Baja.One just needs to venture out of the tourist zone to know that it is indeed not just tourists there.Mija lives there, as Jan says, way out of town and is raising my two beautiful bi- lingual grandaughters, working and living among the locals.There is more to CSL than you think.

My statement still stands, but as you pointed out it is in reference to the tourist zone. Most likely where you live is no different the then any other Baja Ciudad.

lizard lips - 10-27-2007 at 12:04 PM

Hot, I should have said the Chilangos who dont have two pesos to rub together that think they own all of Mexico!

Phil S - 10-27-2007 at 12:11 PM

Couple years ago, Wendy & I spent a week in SMA, and met a few of whom you called 'snobs'. She WAS pretty brutal with you for sure. BUT. We loved our week there. Shops, galleries, studios, churches, local color, music in the plaza (1/2 block from our hotel) $2.00 anywhere taxis's.
Super friendly clerks, shop owners, etc. Great value for our money, and only two years ago. However, we did look around at real estate. Eeeeee gads!!!!! We have an acquaintance who lives in Central Oregon who owns two homes there???????? ONe for a rental and the other when she occationally decides to fly down & "hang around"!!!????!!!! Amazing who many Texas license plated cars we saw down there that week. WE did bus trip to Queretaro, Guanajuato while there, and both very interesting towns. But we really liked SMA the best. Just shows, "different strokes for different folks". I never let the snobs bother me. LIfes too short!!!!

Bruce R Leech - 10-27-2007 at 03:19 PM

SMA ?

bajalou - 10-27-2007 at 03:24 PM

san miguel allende,

comitan - 10-27-2007 at 03:46 PM

SMA Home to 8,000 gringo's. :yes:

Leo - 10-27-2007 at 04:57 PM

The mainland is just another Mexico, no daubt. SMA and the other historic towns nearby are absolutly fascinating, photographers heavens and cultural meccas.
We also checked it ou one year for a few months, but it's too dry, the air, too cold and wet in winter and no ocean nearby. Some people, like me, can't live too far from a good body of water, salty water that is. We love Baja. :yes:

nobaddays - 10-27-2007 at 05:12 PM

Cabo can be a wild and crazy party town. If you don't like it, stay out of downtown. Cabo has the best year round weather in all of Mexico. :cool:

Al G - 10-27-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nobaddays
Cabo can be a wild and crazy party town. If you don't like it, stay out of downtown. Cabo has the best year round weather in all of Mexico. :cool:

No problema...I will stay out...I am intelligent enough to know it is for the young and dumb...Mexico appreciates your monetary contrabutions...Please continue on as it keeps my property taxes down.

Sallysouth - 10-27-2007 at 08:54 PM

Geez Al, What the heck happened to you in The CSL area to have you so "un-dun" whould you care to share ? Maybe then we can get a grip on your hatred for the area?Might help :?:

capt. mike - 10-28-2007 at 06:10 AM

Santa Fe south!!
that hits it perfectly!

it has no ocean :wow:

- !! that's enuff for me not to fly there,
and vandenburg - your other towns are very cool, Zacatecas esp.

Al G - Cabo is ok if you know where to go, and yes the outskirts have amazing things to see/do.
Don't let the neon stereotype it all. After a recent visit i have a new appreciation for it - and i WAS in the cabo sucks camp, not anymore.

Sallysouth - 10-28-2007 at 08:18 PM

Ah, a fly guy that has discovered that all is not what it appears to be!! Good on ya Capt.Mike! There really is a lot more than the tourist zone.Lots of nice secluded beaches, plenty of wildlife, and some really great people! I, for one, would like to know what you experienced there (well, censored, of course) :lol:

BTW, i will be U2U ing you. :saint:

Peloncito - 10-28-2007 at 10:14 PM

I have to say I agaree with both sides and the points made in this thread. I have been going to CSL fishing since 1974 with my dad. My photos of the area have changed drastically over the years. But you can make that arguement about any city (in the world) where growth was inevitable. Downtown Cabo is merely a soundstage for MTV and the "Girls Gone Wild" producers while a short drive out of town does offer you the opportunity to enjoy beautiful beaches, rugged landscapes and smaller friendly "colonias" where you get a sense of what the entire region was like years ago. In the case of Cabos San Lucas, it is a shame that one of the best views of "El Arco" is from the Costco parking lot but we (gringos) are creating most of the demand and the supply is being made to benefit everyone in the area in some capacity. But that demand is not site specific to only Cabo San Lucas. It happens everywhere there is growth. As others have mentioned, you really need to get beyond the cliche of what Cabo is to most tourists to appreicate the benefits of southern Baja.

As far as I am concerned, until I see a different flag flying @ the Delegacion, it is ALL Mexico to me!

Mike

David K - 10-29-2007 at 08:03 AM

Also, it is great that Cabo is at the tip of Baja...

That means you can see all of the rest of Baja without ever going to Cabo!

Lorenzo de Baja shared that with me!

I am looking forward to when the Diamante del Mar people have their Cabo project open...

Al G - 10-29-2007 at 08:21 AM

On the fact that I have only been to CSL 4 times, I will retract my evaluation...but will not rush back to give it another chance. If someone can suggest a worthwhile "something" to try, I will, the next time I find myself there, give it a try.

Martyman - 10-29-2007 at 08:37 AM

Shoot, I thought this was gonna be about the gringo snobs that I see coming down for the baja 1000. Definately a different breed than the baja rats I know and love.

Mango - 10-30-2007 at 10:50 AM

I've never been to CSL; but, I have been to SMA.

I knew what to expect when I went to SMA. I had heard stories and read about all the gringos. Like always expectations are never 100% accurate.

My impressions of SMA were that it was a bit of a fantasy land. The centro was very well kept and the city had more than its share of freshly painted buildings. There were definite enclaves or barrios where you could tell people had LOTS of money as the houses were huge and opulent. There were many gringos around town and many artsy shops. It was good and bad. Not quite as "authentic" feeling compared to some of the other cities in the area; but, then again what is "authentic" as many nearby cities were quite opulent in their heydays centuries ago. It was just not my cup of tea, as I prefer other nearby towns that are not so geared to tourists.

The biggest negatives of SMA:
-Overpriced hotels and food
-Gringos living in town that couldn't speak ANY Spanish?
-The centro was overrun with tourism

The positives:
-Very pretty, real, and well preserved Spanish Colonial architecture.
-Nice topography and good location to explore mines and/or other towns.
-Nice locals

I think there are "snobs" in any nice place; but, there are many nice people as well. I have not been to CSL; but, already have an idea about what to expect - some good and some bad. From my travels, I also know that places can be very different from what you expect. People have preferences about where they live and travel and some people can be snobs about it for sure, its too bad.

I'm sure that CSL has some nice areas and places outside the main tourist zone/strip. I'm not trying to stay away or talk bad about it; but, it's not going to be my main destination either. I'm not a fisherman. I like history, interesting cities, sleepy towns, and old buildings. For me, La Paz or Todos Santos are higher on my list. I'll get over to CSL someday, and I am sure I'll have a good time when I am there.

Paula - 10-30-2007 at 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mango
I've never been to CSL; but, I have been to SMA.

I knew what to expect when I went to SMA. I had heard stories and read about all the gringos. Like always expectations are never 100% accurate.

My impressions of SMA were that it was a bit of a fantasy land. The centro was very well kept and the city had more than its share of freshly painted buildings. There were definite enclaves or barrios where you could tell people had LOTS of money as the houses were huge and opulent. There were many gringos around town and many artsy shops. It was good and bad. Not quite as "authentic" feeling compared to some of the other cities in the area; but, then again what is "authentic" as many nearby cities were quite opulent in their heydays centuries ago. It was just not my cup of tea, as I prefer other nearby towns that are not so geared to tourists.

The biggest negatives of SMA:
-Overpriced hotels and food
-Gringos living in town that couldn't speak ANY Spanish?
-The centro was overrun with tourism

The positives:
-Very pretty, real, and well preserved Spanish Colonial architecture.
-Nice topography and good location to explore mines and/or other towns.
-Nice locals

I think there are "snobs" in any nice place; but, there are many nice people as well. I have not been to CSL; but, already have an idea about what to expect - some good and some bad. From my travels, I also know that places can be very different from what you expect. People have preferences about where they live and travel and some people can be snobs about it for sure, its too bad.

I'm sure that CSL has some nice areas and places outside the main tourist zone/strip. I'm not trying to stay away or talk bad about it; but, it's not going to be my main destination either. I'm not a fisherman. I like history, interesting cities, sleepy towns, and old buildings. For me, La Paz or Todos Santos are higher on my list. I'll get over to CSL someday, and I am sure I'll have a good time when I am there.

I think with your open attitude you will have a good time wherever you go. I was really close-minded about Cabo, but I have had really good visits to both SJC and CSL.

Any time you look for the best of a place you will find it.

honda tom - 10-30-2007 at 09:54 PM

yea . a lot of you are missing out by not visiting cabo. sooo many mexicans from all over mexico come there for the opportunity. lots of great stories, and people. yea theres the bad stuff too! But that bad stuff is from san quintin north... ... and then again in san jose to los cabos. this is the baja that most of us avoid... but for most visitors this IS baja.

bacquito - 10-31-2007 at 04:48 PM

John Steinbeck in his book Log to the Sea of Cortez makes mention of Cabo San Lucas and there was not a whole lot there.
My late father was a Tuna Fisherman and told me of a tuna cannery at CSL. This was in the 50's. The last time I was in Cabo I saw ruins and was told it was once a tuna cannery.
How times change!!

David K - 11-2-2007 at 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bacquito
John Steinbeck in his book Log to the Sea of Cortez makes mention of Cabo San Lucas and there was not a whole lot there.
My late father was a Tuna Fisherman and told me of a tuna cannery at CSL. This was in the 50's. The last time I was in Cabo I saw ruins and was told it was once a tuna cannery.
How times change!!

When I first went to Cabo San Lucas in 1966, I remember the cannery building at the edge of the bay with a pier out from it...

Here's a photo that shows some of the cannery on the beach from 1957, from the Howard Gulick collection...

Cannery Cape San Lucas, April 19, 1957

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by David K]

bacquito - 11-2-2007 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Cannery Cape San Lucas, April 19, 1957

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by David K]

Thanks for the photo. My father began Tuna Fishing in the mid 50's and so this would have been the time he was in the area. He was quite involved in the Tuna industry and fished in Peru, Africa, South and West Pacific. He had alot of stories to tell.

fishbuck - 11-2-2007 at 12:50 PM

This is an interesting topic. I was just at my place in San Quintin. None of the other american home owners were around and I was about to leave when a plane flew by low and fast.
He slowed and landed on our runway. It was my friends returning from shopping in San Diego. I got the distinct feeling from my one friend that he would rather fly to San Diego and shop at Trader Joes than interact with the locals.
There are a couple of decent mercados in S.Q. but they can be crowded with farm worker types but to me it's interesting. Maybe that novelty wears off after awhile and it just becomes annoying.
I helped unload the plane. Mostly liquor. What, you can't get a case of "2 buck Chuck" in Baja?
With a plane it would be possible to never go to town. Stay in the gringo enclave and drink wine while looking at the town with contempt.
I hope I don't get like that when I move there.

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by fishbuck]

Martyman - 11-2-2007 at 01:38 PM

That's a sad story. I too love going to the local mercados. Fishbuck, I think with your attitude it will always be "interesting". Interesting leads to adventure and that is whats happening! Pants all gringo snobs!

DrTom - 11-2-2007 at 02:08 PM

the response to my post is interesting indeed. I was raised in laguna beach, calif, before it was trendy. The more upscale it became the less i liked it. eventually moved to a small town in coastal british columbia which is a lot like laguna when i went to high school. What i love about baja is its sense of adventure. And I have better friends there in going there part time for the past few years than i ever had in laguna, or bc for that matter. And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends. My veterinary partner in san jose is the most trustworthy, kind, wise, doctor i have had the pleasure to know in 25years of practice. So for me, in baja, and in los cabos i have it all.....La frontera, authenticity, good surf, good fishing, an amazing ecosystem (i have this thing for the life aquatic), really good people both mexican and gringo.....there's a lot of love in baja and los cabos for me.....

So Dr. Tom--what more could you ask?

Baja Bernie - 11-2-2007 at 02:55 PM

DENNIS - 11-2-2007 at 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends.

Wow....That's great Doc. How do you keep them seperated? You know...Those Mexican friends from the non-Mexican friends?
It must be a cultural chore. Do you check their teeth for remants of Mexican food? Maybe BigMac residue?
What is it that makes Mexicans more likeable than Anglo North Americans? I really want to know.
What did we do wrong?

Baja&Back - 11-2-2007 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Here's a photo that shows some of the cannery on the beach from 1957, from the Howard Gulick collection...

Cannery Cape San Lucas, April 19, 1957

Wow, the Hotel Hacienda has sure grown!
... and I don't see the tables on the beach at the Office.

Anybody remember Chuey's hotsprings camping?

A guy named Rivera was sitting in those hotsprings one nite, slurping jumbo shrimp & sucking a fattie, He had just paid the town fathers $25,000 to buy the whole desolate mountain (couple of square miles) behind the village. They thought he was loco as a Gringo. He named the hill Pedrigal.
Who knew!
Last building lot there just went for a million two. :lol:

David K - 11-2-2007 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends.

Dennis, are you serious...? If you don't know, you need to get some Mexican friends! They are awesome people who with little wealth would gladly share anything with you...

David, I had no idea

Dave - 11-2-2007 at 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

you need to get some Mexican friends! They are awesome people who with little wealth would gladly share anything with you...

In that case, I'd love to meet Carlos Slim.

DrTom - 11-2-2007 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends.

well, for one, my mexican friends covertly hostile.

DrTom - 11-2-2007 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends.

well, for one, my mexican friends covertly hostile.

correction, my mexican friends arent covertly hostile, and can type better than me too!

DENNIS - 11-2-2007 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Dennis, are you serious...? If you don't know, you need to get some Mexican friends! They are awesome people who with little wealth would gladly share anything with you...

Like what?

Maybe, maybe not

Dave - 11-2-2007 at 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
correction, my mexican friends arent covertly hostile

If they were really good at it how would you know?

Remember:
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you.

DENNIS - 11-2-2007 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTom
And I think the people I like the most are my mexican friends.

Dennis, are you serious...? If you don't know, you need to get some Mexican friends! They are awesome people who with little wealth would gladly share anything with you...

Yeah David...I'm serious. What makes Mexicans more likable than North Americans?
I have lots of Mexican friends. Why wouldn't I? I live here. And the Mexicans I live around are just like the folks I lived around in the states. Friends help friends. A-holes arn't relied upon.
Gimme a break, David. Because you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and a truck full of Mexicans comes by and offers help, makes the heart and soul of Mexico more friendly? Woudn't this happen in the states as well? I think it would.
Perhaps you see this gesture of friendship in Mexico from a more noblese oblige point of view. I believe you do. You and many others.
When you're down here and in need of help, help yourself. If that doesn't work, call me. If that doesn't work, accept the help of the same people you champion here, the Mexicans.

It's Baja. We're all in it together.

Ehh, Good People are Just Good People

Gypsy Jan - 11-2-2007 at 07:34 PM

At the risk of iginiting another serious flaming session, might I suggest that it is easiers (yes, I deliberately spelled it that way) to find good hearted people in the still sparsely populated parts of Baja than in the metropolitan areas of the U.S.?

Why? Maybe because Baja communities still depend on and interact with each other and are not isolated/exiled/desensitized by long commutes, TV programs, video games, iPods and all the other pressures/distractions.

In a choice of a face off between a self-entitled American vs a self-entitled Chilango, I would pick the American - at least I can argue with and ridicule him in his own language with some facility and cultural/political knowledge.

If my Spanish language skills improve sufficiently, I'd tackle the Chilango, tambien.

DENNIS - 11-2-2007 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
At the risk of iginiting another serious flaming session, might I suggest that it is easiers (yes, I deliberately spelled it that way) to find good hearted people in the still sparsely populated parts of Baja than in the metropolitan areas of the U.S.?

Why? Maybe because Baja communities still depend on and interact with each other and are not isolated/exiled/desensitized by long commutes, TV programs, video games, iPods and all the other pressures/distractions.

In a choice of a face off between a self-entitled American vs a self-entitled Chilango, I would pick the American - at least I can argue with and ridicule him in his own language with some facility and cultural/political knowledge.

If my Spanish language skills improve sufficiently, I'd tackle the Chilango, tambien.

Right on, Jan. In your quandry between the self-entitleds...you may want to ignore them both. And, if you don't mind, you might not want to be looking for good-hearted people. Your heart is good enough and they'll find you.

David K - 11-3-2007 at 08:03 AM

Although I have traveled a little in Mainland Mexico, my expriences with Mexicans mostly have occured in Baja California... from my 40+ years of Baja travels, the people of Baja have been great (friendly, helpful, generous, etc.).

My responce was to you Dennis because you asked "What makes Mexicans more likeable than Anglo North Americans?"

If you have lots of Mexican friends, as you say above, then I would say you have been there long enough to realize what I said... But that you need to question that obvious difference has me wondering...

I have many Anglo friends and of course they are not less likeable than Mexicans... The post really is a comparisson between Mexicans who are strangers and the same of Americans... The Mexican is more likely to try and be a friend to you by his actions than an American would in the same situation.

Gringos can be snobs (the subject of this thread)... Some Nomads can be snobs too... if your attitude sucks than the treatment from the Mexicans will probably be less than what most of the Nomads will have experienced.

People are what they are... if they are happy with themselves and the reaction from others, then great...

IF people are not happy with the treatment they receive from others or constantly need to make negative and depressing comments, then they would benefit from an attitude adjustment... You get what you give!

PabloS - 11-3-2007 at 08:13 AM

Well said DK