BajaNomad - Recent TJ traffic cop scams

Recent TJ traffic cop scams

Santiago - 11-12-2007 at 08:41 AM

This has been discussed to death but I thought I would post my recent experience just to let people know some of the newer mordita scams going on in TJ.

On Friday morning of last week a couple came to camp that had crossed at San Yisidro at 5 am that morning, still dark. Along the border road they were stopped by a police car and extorted for about $60. After paying, they were stopped a quarter mile later by a motorcycle cop with the same speeding crap and the man complained that he just got stopped. The cop asked how much he had paid, the man told him, and then gave him $10. The cop handed it back to him and told him to go on his way.

As I returned to the States on Saturday night, I crossed the last toll booth about 9:00pm and slowed to 35mph, way less than the 80kph posted, and continued to the crossing. As soon as I dropped down to the road that is next to the border fence I pickup two motorcycle cops who pulled me over. 1 cop was in front of me and one at my window. The cop at the window spoke good English and told me I was speeding and asked for my drivers license and registration. As he was looking at them he asked me what I did for a living; I asked him why he wanted to know but he did not answer – I told him I was retired.
He then told me to turn right at the next street that there was a police station there – I told him I thought the station was further down near Revolution but he said there was one close. I turned right (south) and followed them one block, they turned right again (west) and followed them one block where they told me to stop. I asked them where was the station and they said it had closed for the night. One cop went west to the next street, looked up and down it and came back and said the street was closed and had me make a u-turn and go back to the intersection and turn left (north) so I was facing the 4 lane road again. I realized later that they wanted me facing the 4 lane road so it would be easy for me to get back on it (I was towing a boat).
He made a big show of going over all my paper work, even the boat papers, checking numbers etcetera. He then pulled out a brochure from the California Hiway Patrol showing that they share info with the TJ police and that if I get a ticket in TJ it goes to the CHP and that my insurance would be informed and that I would get points on my record in California. He told me that the judge had gone home for the day and that he would right me a ticket for speeding and that I would have to come back on Tuesday or Wednesday to pay the fine of $2500 pesos (he showed me the fine schedule). I asked which day but he shrugged his shoulders and said who knows when the judge would be there. I told him to just give me the ticket and that there was an address on the back for me to mail to the check to in San Diego when I got back home but he said they quit doing that program because too many people did not send in the money.
He then told me that his partner had called his boss and that his boss said that I could just give them $140 and that they would not bother to report the speeding ticket to the CHP. I declined, telling them I would be happy to come back on Tuesday and wait for the judge.
They told me this was my lucky day, handed me my paperwork and left.
My attitude during the whole procedure was polite, respectful but firm.
I know there are differing opinions on paying or not paying, but I encourage all of you that do not want to pay to just keep your fear down, and insist on going to the station to pay the fine there. My guess is that most of these guys will fold.

Bajaboy - 11-12-2007 at 08:46 AM

Good for you Santiago!

mikeintj - 11-12-2007 at 08:52 AM

Thanks for that story Santiago. It really is sad that this goes on all the time and nobody does anything about it. I can only say from my experience I have gone to $40 but no more. They have always accepted that. Unfortunately I am too impatient to play the waiting game, and I always wanted to be on my way ASAP.

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 08:54 AM

Maybe it's because more people have access to this and other forums but, it seems to me that we're hearing about these occurances more and more all the time. When will we, as a group, learn to fight back? I've said it here before, we have no solidarity. A voice of one will never be heard.
Any suggestions?

Al G - 11-12-2007 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikeintj
Thanks for that story Santiago. It really is sad that this goes on all the time and nobody does anything about it. I can only say from my experience I have gone to $40 but no more. They have always accepted that. Unfortunately I am too impatient to play the waiting game, and I always wanted to be on my way ASAP.

Sometimes it is difficult to read a person...I get both that you are unaware that people like you are the main cause of hell the rest of us go through....also maybe I hear a hint that you maybe want to change your unacceptable behavior :?:

mikeintj - 11-12-2007 at 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I get both that you are unaware that people like you are the main cause of hell the rest of us go through....also maybe I hear a hint that you maybe want to change your unacceptable behavior :?:

Complete BS.

The main cause of your hell is corruption in Mexico. Why there is so much corruption is an interesting question. Why aren't US cops corrupt or European ones? Of course Americans and Europeans would not tolerate corruption, so why do Mexicans? I don't know the answer to this.

My behavior may be unacceptable to you, but it is a reasonable, rational response by me. It is a simple fact that I would rather pay $40 and be on my way. I do this because I know that my individual behaviour will not change the attitude of the cops, they will still solicite bribes. I should add that I first refuse to pay, and it is only after the response of the cop (and my trying to guess the type of person that he is), that I begin the bartering process.

I don't know where you live but I lived in Tijuana and Rosarito for approximately 4 years. It is a wearisome fact of life there that you will get stopped by the police and asked for bribes. If I was to enter a 2 hour showdown everytime that I was asked for a bribe I would never be able to get anything done.

losfrailes - 11-12-2007 at 10:36 AM

Why not report this behavior to the Department of Turismo! I see a pattern that involves early morning hours and lack of other traffic.

I do believe that the Department of Turismo, were they brought in on this, would take some positive steps.

But, never having been stopped by these early morning cops, what do I know.

Barry A. - 11-12-2007 at 11:05 AM

MikeinJ-------

You make some interesting points, but I think you are missing the MAIN point------

If crimes (any crimes involving money) were not profitable, they would not happen. By paying the mordida you make the crime profitable, and that harms everybody else. Thus, you "enable" this corruption to continue. Without enableing folks cooperating with the crooks, there would be no corruption. So, you have it backwards, in my opinion.

In 55+ years of travel in Mexico I have NEVER paid any mordida, and I have NEVER regretted it.

barry

Santiago - 11-12-2007 at 12:31 PM

Quote:

I don't know where you live but I lived in Tijuana and Rosarito for approximately 4 years. It is a wearisome fact of life there that you will get stopped by the police and asked for bribes. If I was to enter a 2 hour showdown everytime that I was asked for a bribe I would never be able to get anything done.

My guess is that from the first pullover to when I was back on the road was 10 or 12 minutes.
I have been in sales my whole life and in the first few minutes I know if my prospect will buy. I think these guys are the very same. I'm not trying to start an argument over paying/not paying - we will never convince each other to change. I'm only saying that if you do not want to pay - don't. It won't take much time for them to realise it and look for others.

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 12:36 PM

Mordida, in its unadulterated form, is ideal. I would imagine that years way back, the police were paid nothing. Mordida was their paycheck. What could have been better? The lawbreakers supported law enforcement. Now, I know that is simplistic. Times have changed and so has everything else except mordida and the police tradition that has kept it very much alive. Anybody who thinks that, if they are payed more, mordida will vanish, is kidding themselves. It won't. They won't turn down money. It's laughable to think they would.

fdt - 11-12-2007 at 12:38 PM

Santiago, thanks for posting, sorry this happened and FYI I emailed your post early this morning to the tourism officials, if you want more info on who, you can U2U me. As for the man that sais he lived in Tijuana / Rosarito 4 years, I must say that IMHMO you are only feeding the corruption and paying a bribe "you" become corrupt also. I say this not from 4 years experience but more from about 50.
Saludos

[Edited on 11-12-2007 by fdt]

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 12:47 PM

Giving this more thought, I can think of one thing that would stop a lot of the roadside extortion. There should be a judge available close by twenty four hours per day and the procedure should have a guaranty not to exceed thirty minutes. Going to see the judge would no longer be a threat. It would be a pleasure. The money would go to the city fund and the cop will have done the job he is paid to do.

Al G - 11-12-2007 at 01:15 PM

Dennis, I do like that ideal...the people that ARE breaking the law would then have no recourse and would not be able to contribute to the corruption leveled at us. Mikeintj will say it won't work...it will if they turn in the money with the criminal and then are rewarded with the bribe plus the judge adds 10-20% to the fine and rewards the cop with that also...of course this would only work if the cops are video equipped to prove the bribe and crime. I have no problem with the policia make good money as long as the people obey the law are not harassed. Someone who has had to bribe cops several times in 4 years cannot, IMO, be innocent.

The Gull - 11-12-2007 at 02:12 PM

Santiago has the right idea. There are differences of opinion of pay or no pay. Do what you choose is best for you. He posted it as a warning to other Nomads and a method for those who do not want to pay.

Shame that a newbie expresses his opinion that his time is more valued than his cash and he gets swarmed by a pack accusing him of being guilty of something and promoting graft & corrruption in Baja.

In fairness to other opinions and their right to post, how about not making such "value" judgments regarding people who hold opposite opinions.

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Shame that a newbie expresses his opinion that his time is more valued than his cash and he gets swarmed by a pack accusing him of being guilty of something and promoting graft & corrruption in Baja.

I agree with you, Gull. Actually, Mikeintj has been around here longer than I have so he's not really a Newbie.

fdt - 11-12-2007 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Actually, Mikeintj has been around here longer than I have so he's not really a Newbie.

Dennis, at the rate your'e going you'll make ultrasuperduper nomad in no time

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Dennis, at the rate your'e going you'll make ultrasuperduper nomad in no time

Yeah Ferna....I have a strong need to talk, as you can see.

Ferna...... How about the above idea of making a judge available? As I understand it, the police use that point, seeing the judge, as a hammer to scare people into submission. They tell drivers that they will see him as soon as he returns from wherever he may be. His beach house in Peru or whatever.
So, if you can take away the hammer, things would improve.
Am I being naive? It just seems to be a good idea. And the city couldn't cry poor on this one since it would be making money, probably enough to pay for a raise in the police salarys.

Barry A. - 11-12-2007 at 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

And Barry A. said:

This is an interesting response-----"a value judgement", you say. Would someone like to respond to my post, or the logic behind it, and explain how this is a "value judgement"? I just don't get it, I guess.

I say again, "IF NOBODY PAID MORDIDA, THERE WOULD BE NO MORDIDA"------that is not a "value judgement", it's a FACT, it seems to me.

[Edited on 11-12-2007 by Barry A.]

Barry A. - 11-12-2007 at 04:56 PM

-----and I obviously do not know how to use the "Quote" function of this board-----

the immediate above "Quote" is NOT a statement by Dennis, it was made by ME. Sorry Dennis.

barry

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 05:04 PM

That's OK Barry.......I can't remember for more than thirty minutes what I've said.

fdt - 11-12-2007 at 05:08 PM

Barry A. You are absolutely right, it's like giving to the begger mafia, if no one gives them a limosna, they have to stop. Did you know that the beggers make an average of 75 USDollars on bad days and at least 300 USDollars per day on high season?

Dennis, the judge is most of the time on the cops side.

Mango - 11-12-2007 at 05:37 PM

I've only paid a bribe once, and it was just so I didn't have to spend the night in jail for something serious someone with me did, unbeknownst to me. I was completely innocent; but, guilt by association, hard concrete floors, and roaches don't quite do it for me,... sorry.. a little $$ and I was out of there and out of town the next day counting my blessings.

I have a knack of staying out of trouble and respecting law enforcement is key to that. There are good cops and bad ones. I think paying bribes comes down to what can be gained and/or lost. As a rule I try to avoid paying a bribe; but, if your going to get screwed it might not be a bad way out. In Mexico, just like in the USA, it is good to know your rights and protect them. Like most things in life there is no black and white answer.

About a year ago, I got pulled over for doing 120 KPH in a 60 KPH zone by a federal policeman. I was ready to pay my fine and face my maker. I didn't offer him a bribe, nor would I pay one; because, I was guilty. When the cop asked me why I was going so fast, I said, "Yo soy tonto" (There were other reasons.. but it boils down to the fact I was being a fool) He gave me my papers and sent me on my way without a fine. I drive much slower now just to pay him back.

Honesty works wonders, and as Santiago found out.. often you can use it to your advantage.

DENNIS - 11-12-2007 at 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Dennis, the judge is most of the time on the cops side.

Evidently, the city fathers don't want this to change. For some reason, they accept the situation as it is. It must serve a purpose for them although I can't imagine that roadside extortation could be of any value to anybody other than the police.
So, what we have is institutionalized extortion and terror tactics with the tacit or otherwise approval of the government that hires the police and the judges.

Why arn't the travelling public made aware of this? Why arn't they told that the minute they cross the border, they are fair game to be extorted with the approval of the government which runs the city?
Ferna...Your statement is beyond comprehension.

[Edited on 11-13-2007 by DENNIS]

Dave - 11-12-2007 at 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I say again, "IF NOBODY PAID MORDIDA, THERE WOULD BE NO MORDIDA"------that is not a "value judgement", it's a FACT, it seems to me.

True...But most of what's being described here isn't MORDIDA.

MORDIDA is an option.

EXTORTION ain't.

Barry

The Gull - 11-12-2007 at 06:21 PM

Explain how this is not a value judgment.

Thus, you "enable" this corruption to continue. Without enableing folks cooperating with the crooks, there would be no corruption.

Actually, you may be right about it not being a value judgment as it looks more like an accusation. Terribly sad that you could not absorb the "spirit" of what I wrote regarding the pack approach.

Descending on the opinion of another is OK when you are in the vocal majority, right guys?

I valued the very first posting, the rest, including mine, added nothing. How'z that for a value judgment - can I get in the club?

SDRonni - 11-13-2007 at 10:27 AM

Do you think the toll road is "safe" on a weekday around 10-10:30 a.m. or would you suggest always taking the free road?

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 10:46 AM

SDRonni..........

It's as safe as it will get. There will be plenty of traffic. I get the feeling that you've been disproportionatly frightened by all the horror stories here. Learn the speed limits and obey them. That's all you can do.

Barry A. - 11-13-2007 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
Explain how this is not a value judgment.

Thus, you "enable" this corruption to continue. Without enableing folks cooperating with the crooks, there would be no corruption.

Actually, you may be right about it not being a value judgment as it looks more like an accusation. Terribly sad that you could not absorb the "spirit" of what I wrote regarding the pack approach.

Descending on the opinion of another is OK when you are in the vocal majority, right guys?

I valued the very first posting, the rest, including mine, added nothing. How'z that for a value judgment - can I get in the club?

Good morning, Gull------

I must admit I am confused. I can see how you would think it "sad" that I don't understand, but I really don't understand any of what you say here.

I had not even considered the "pack" angle------I simply gave my opinion-----

-----and I still think that anybody who pays mordida is "part of the problem" and not part of the solution, so yes that is an "accusation" without a doubt.

This particular subject has long confounded me, and I simply cannot understand why others don't see it the same way as I do. But that is my problem, and I will continue to live with it.

barry

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
This particular subject has long confounded me, and I simply cannot understand why others don't see it the same way as I do. But that is my problem, and I will continue to live with it.

barry

Quite possibly it's because many, if not most, arn't as proactive in seeking a solution to the problem. They just want their problems to go away. For most travelers in Baja, defying authority in any way is unimaginable. Law abiding citizens in our culture don't do that. In most cases, the opportunity never arises.
For the millionth time here, I'll bring up the issue of solidarity and how strong we could be as a group if we had it. I have to think the reason we don't is the same reason we don't confront rogue authority. We don't want to enter into a fight for ourselves let alone others.
I agree with you. Pay the judge if it becomes necessary, not the cop. Unfortunatly, paying the judge is twisted into a daunting task. I posted above how I thought having a judge more accessible would remove that option as a threat. It would be an easy solution. My suggestion was all but laughed at.
Anyway, doing the right thing has purposely been made an uncomfortable non-option and I can see why some choose the easy way out.
There will never be enough participation in doing the right thing to change the system. As Ferna pointed out, it's not just the police, it's the judges as well. And when more is known, the nightmare starts at the top.
It's very discourageing for me.

Cap - 11-13-2007 at 01:17 PM

Think of the problems these corrupt cops have effectively targeting their victims.

Retired older guys:
Carrying more money, probably grumpy, and experience in dealing with authority has taught them respect but they have lost their fear, and have loads of time to resolve the issue.

Younger guys:
Legitimately did something to be hassled about, impatient to get on with their travels, or back home to work, but have little money.

It can't be easy to deal with all of these gabachos locos, that won't or can't pay, support your family, mistress, and bring in enough to kick up a cut to your boss.

I am being sarcastic in my sympathy but, as with any issue there is no cut and dry, one paragraph answer to this complex human drama/problem.

Again

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
For the millionth time here, I'll bring up the issue of solidarity and how strong we could be as a group if we had it. I have to think the reason we don't is the same reason we don't confront rogue authority. We don't want to enter into a fight for ourselves let alone others.

A fabricated traffic stop is extortion. Assuming you have options is foolish.

Negotiating a bribe, being ticketed or not, going to court, being robbed, beaten and/or shot, having your car stolen, being arrested or released... These are not your options.

Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time.

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time.

Agreed. What do you suggest?

bajaguy - 11-13-2007 at 02:17 PM

Absent the threat or actual use of force or physical violence, there is ALWAYS negotiation......and it seems that if you/we take a hard line...."take me to the station, I want to see the Chief/Judge", I have plenty of time, I'll wait....ALMOST always the attempt fails.

I believe that it is up to each of us to "know when to hold 'em and know when when to fold 'em. Personal security and a personal safety are always the first consideration.

For me, if there is no threat or use of force/violence, I'll wait em out and play with their minds......

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Here, corruption is advancing beyond negotiation. Some cops no longer bother with the ruse. It's just a waste of time.

Agreed. What do you suggest?

1. Understand that corrupt cops are armed robbers.

2. Realize the risks involved with negotiation, argument or bravado.

3. Use common sense to avoid or mitigate involvement in highway robbery.

Barry A. - 11-13-2007 at 03:40 PM

Dave-----

If I truly believed what you just said, I would never go back down there.

------the cops (a few of them) may be "armed robbers", but I don't think, nor have I ever thought, that they were murderers, or even assaulters--------but maybe things have changed.

I will continue to practice NEVER paying mordida-----bottom line: I am too cheap to give up my money when I have done nothing wrong, and am willing to except the consequences.

Bajajack - 11-13-2007 at 04:13 PM

In the last couple of years it has gotten worse and now since congress did'nt give em amnesty and a free ride north it's worse then ever. I see it more every time I go down.

The animosity toward gringo's is getting scary.

The average mex in baja now seem's to think it's his appointed duty to to seperate any gringo from his property, money, cars, real estate, whatever any way he can!

And the only difference between the thug's and the police is the latter has the badge, otherwise the same.

Iv'e been going down for a long time and have thought about retiring there but the way the attitude is towards Americans now I dont think it will happen.

BajaNomad - 11-13-2007 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
What do you suggest?

Pizza Insurance.

If that's not successful for you, keep Dave's response in mind.

fdt - 11-13-2007 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
The animosity toward gringo's is getting scary.

The average mex in baja now seem's to think it's his appointed duty to to seperate any gringo from his property, money, cars, real estate, whatever any way he can!

Could you explain who the average mex in baja is?

Bajajack - 11-13-2007 at 04:58 PM

Just about anyone you would come in contact with that involves money.

Use to be if You had it, they wanted it!

The attitude now is if you got it then it's their right to take it.

Then don't go...Please

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
In the last couple of years it has gotten worse and now since congress did'nt give em amnesty and a free ride north it's worse then ever. I see it more every time I go down.

Criminals target people who have things to steal. It's what successful criminals do.

Bajajack - 11-13-2007 at 05:06 PM

Are you speaking from experience.

Are you saying if you look and act like a bum and dont have anything worth stealing you wont be bothered???

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 05:07 PM

Maybe this thread needs a TimeOut.

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
What do you suggest?

Pizza Insurance.

If that's not successful for you, keep Dave's response in mind.

Pizzachit and national plates. Highly recommended for those who live here. But we're not the ones usually preyed upon. Extortion is primarily a tourism related industry.

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Extortion is primarily a tourism related industry.

I think you're pretty much right. I've spent a lot of time in the infamous corridor and have never been extorted. I've been shot at near my home but, that's another story.

Speaking from experience

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajack
Are you speaking from experience.

Are you saying if you look and act like a bum and dont have anything worth stealing you wont be bothered???

I am a bum. :biggrin:

And you are xenophobic.

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 05:19 PM

Can one take xenophobia to another country?

The bright side

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I've been shot at near my home but, that's another story.

Whoever it was, they probably weren't serious. :rolleyes:

[Edited on 11-14-2007 by Dave]

Dave - 11-13-2007 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Can one take xenophobia to another country?

If one is especially stupid, and/or suicidal. :lol:

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Whoever it was, they probably weren't serious. :rolleyes:

You're probably right, again. They pulled up next to me at 50 mph and fired. Missed my head by two feet. If they were serious, I'm sure they could have hit me.

dccf - 11-13-2007 at 05:39 PM

http://campolorenzo.com/_wsn/page2.html

Another scam???

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 05:52 PM

Yes. Another scam.

BajaNomad - 11-13-2007 at 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Pizzachit and national plates. Highly recommended for those who live here.

Regarding Pizza Insurance - as I've got a u2u on it, and others may be scratching their heads.... one of my favorite posts.... by Oso:

(hope this link works for you)

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=10601&pag...

--
Doug

DENNIS - 11-13-2007 at 06:18 PM

So, that's where it came from. Recently, when Minnow had his truck stolen, he refered to it as his Pizza truck. I think he even mentioned Pizza Chit.

Thanks for the background.

Al G - 11-13-2007 at 06:24 PM

WOW...I have pizza insurance...thanks Doug

vacaenbaja - 11-13-2007 at 06:46 PM

I am thinking of taking a small motorcycle on one of those bumper hitch carriers. Now my question is "Is this just asking for trouble as I can just hear the police saying stuff like "you need to have a red rag hanging from the back" to "your tail lights and license plates are being blocked" (in their opinion)
Has anyone ever had any problems transporting items using
such a wheel l carrier? What would be the "fine" for the above. Also is ther any trouble using offroad non plated
trail bikes in Baja?

bajaguy - 11-13-2007 at 06:55 PM

I have a "Hitch Hauler" and use it all the time to transport 2 ice chests.....never been bothered