BajaNomad

Baja slammed by CNN

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 03:46 PM

At 2:15pm pst today CNN did a 3 min. segment reporting the recent problems the Surfer and his girl friend had at a popular surfing spot on the northern Baja Pacific coast----interviewing the couple on site in Baja. They were shot at, she was multi-raped, and they lost about $10K worth of stuff to the robbers/assaulters------same story that we have recently discussed on this board.

My point in posting this is that CNN stated that the US State Dept., and others, are now cautioning folks to be extremely careful when visiting Baja, and to consider not going at all. They emphathised that there are multible incidents similar to this one, and that it has become a dangerous place. The couple, of course, stated that they would never visit Baja again------further stateing that he had probably surfed in Baja in the past over 500 times-------but never again.

CNN tried to contact the various "agencies", in both Baja and Mexico, and were told "no information" is available, or the agencies did not return the calls at all.

This does not bode well for tourism in Baja----and the problem has hit the BIG TIME, NOW.

elizabeth - 11-18-2007 at 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.

My point in posting this is that CNN stated that the US State Dept., and others, are now cautioning folks to be extremely careful when visiting Baja, and to consider not going at all.


If you check the Department of State website there are no travel advisories warning about Baja.

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 04:04 PM

elizabeth--------that is truly interesting.

I am only reporting what was just said on CNN-------and I listened very carefully.

-----of course, me being a conservative and a FOX NEWS fan, I have my own doubts about the accuracy and "unbiased" reporting by CNN. :(

Mango - 11-18-2007 at 04:06 PM

I saw the second half of that report. Besides the story about recent crime in baja; they had a brief interview with someone from the state department.

I think the travel advisories the state department person was talking about referred to taxi crime in DF, bus hijackings/robberies in Oaxaca, and some drug violence in border cities (TJ and Nuevo Leon for the most part)



[Edited on 11-18-2007 by Mango]

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 04:06 PM

It's about time.
The Baja State Department won't give a comment? What insolent crap. They go into their denial mode with the message that, "We don't have any idea what you're talking about." That's what they've done for years and will continue to do untill the American traveling public finds a way to come together and demand accountability. It isn't so much the felon who violates the tourist, it's the government that says it isn't happening.
That is unacceptible, even collusive.
We need a website that will address the issues at hand. A board that will give us a voice. One that will publish our complaints and the pains that we have endured.
Anybody out there who can facilitate this?

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 04:10 PM

Dennis-------

it seems to me that if CNN is reporting this, then it HAS reached a level where the Mexican government had better address it, or it truly will get out of hand and tourism will suffer, as it should.

-----but I am with you in all you say here.

elizabeth - 11-18-2007 at 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
elizabeth--------that is truly interesting.

I am only reporting what was just said on CNN-------and I listened very carefully.

-----of course, me being a conservative and a FOX NEWS fan, I have my own doubts about the accuracy and "unbiased" reporting by CNN. :(


I absolutely believe that's what was said, and that's of course what you heard. I am the political opposite of you, not being a conservative, but I don't trust any news network, Fox or CNN. I don't think any of them are accurate and unbiased!!!

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 04:20 PM

It will die, Barry. Just like all other comments by the news. Why wouldn't it? There are no activists to take it over and run with it. 48 hours and it's dead. So sad.
How do we develop a base to coordinate our feelings? I don't know but, I know it would benefit most people here. Even the ones who don't care.
Can you think about it? Think about being one of a group of people who stand up for themselves and fight the crap that we are being subjected to?

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
I am the political opposite of you, not being a conservative,

What does politics have to do with mayhem?

Jack Swords - 11-18-2007 at 04:27 PM

Perhaps this State Department warning was alluded to.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_3028.html

elizabeth - 11-18-2007 at 04:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
I am the political opposite of you, not being a conservative,

What does politics have to do with mayhem?

Not much, I was talking about television networks.

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 04:34 PM

elizabeth------

Now I AM confused. The site referred to above by Jack Swords DOES make comments about Baja, by the State Department, and I am pretty sure that this is what CNN was referring too.

Now, what were YOU referring too by saying "nothing on the State Dept. website"? :?:

barry

elizabeth - 11-18-2007 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
elizabeth------

Now I AM confused. The site referred to above by Jack Swords DOES make comments about Baja, by the State Department, and I am pretty sure that this is what CNN was referring too.

Now, what were YOU referring too by saying "nothing on the State Dept. website"? :?:

barry


That's a very general and vague warning. Read it, would it tell you anything about any Baja problems if you knew Baja? In fact, it tells people to take the toll roads, which, if we've been reading this forum, we know is not the best idea. The Baja part is mostly about execution style drug killings.

I still say, there is nothing on the State Department website that talks about the issues you raised.

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
elizabeth------

Now I AM confused. The site referred to above by Jack Swords DOES make comments about Baja, by the State Department, and I am pretty sure that this is what CNN was referring too.

Now, what were YOU referring too by saying "nothing on the State Dept. website"? :?:

barry


That's a very general and vague warning. Read it, would it tell you anything about any Baja problems if you knew Baja? In fact, it tells people to take the toll roads, which, if we've been reading this forum, we know is not the best idea. The Baja part is mostly about execution style drug killings.

I still say, there is nothing on the State Department website that talks about the issues you raised.


------and that is certainly your priviledge to think that, but I believe that you are misleading others by denying that the State Dept. has addressed the problem-------to me they have. It is a typical State Dept. statement-----you can do with it what you want.

Bottom line: what CNN said appears true to me.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by elizabeth
The Baja part is mostly about execution style drug killings.


Our concern isn't drug killings. Our people arn't in that sphere if you're talking cartel. The killings are now aimed at the vulnerable and weak. We are targeted because of who we are and what we have. Soft targets.

Natalie Ann - 11-18-2007 at 04:55 PM

Interesting....

CNN sez that the State Dept. sez that Baja is not safe for tourists... and this causes an uproar even among the folks who want others to stay away, folks who want the land to remain much as it is today.

Of course, if CNN had said that the State Dept. advised that every tourist go to Baja now because it's the best of all places for gringos to vacation.... I think we'd find something to complain about there, too.

I'm with Elizabeth on this... it's the news. No reason for me to trust the news any more than I trust politicians.

nena

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 04:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Natalie Ann
Interesting....

CNN sez that the State Dept. sez that Baja is not safe for tourists... and this causes an uproar even among the folks who want others to stay away, folks who want the land to remain much as it is today.

Of course, if CNN had said that the State Dept. advised that every tourist go to Baja now because it's the best of all places for gringos to vacation.... I think we'd find something to complain about there, too.

I'm with Elizabeth on this... it's the news. No reason for me to trust the news any more than I trust politicians.

nena


Nena-----------say what?????? :?: You have completely lost me on that one. :no:

Natalie Ann - 11-18-2007 at 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.

Nena-----------say what?????? :?: You have completely lost me on that one. :no:


yep, Barry, that happens.... my aging mind simply wanders off on some path of its own. And no, I don't want to hear about the early stages of dementia.;D:biggrin:

nena

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 05:04 PM

Nena---------it is NOT what the State Dept. says that is important (that is just supporting info)--------the main point is that CNN has highlighted a very real problem that occurred to some surfers in Baja-----THAT IS THE ISSUE.

----and that is how it should be------the developing problems in Baja need to be shown in glaring light, and perhaps being on National news is a step in the right direction, it seems to me.

This stuff is REAL, and no amount of denying it makes it go away-----------

You and Elizabeth bringing in your "suspicions" just detracts from the problem, weakens it, and you thereby become part of the problem, making Dennis right------it may just fade away, and the problem will get worse, and more innocent folks will be harmed, robbed, raped, etc. if it is not kept in the lime light and solved.

I just don't get what you agenda is here---------:?:

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 05:09 PM

Her agenda is what 99.9% of people's agenda is. Stick your head in the sand and it will go away.

bajaandy - 11-18-2007 at 05:10 PM

Interesting point Nena. No matter which way the news is slanted, someone will find a reason to be upset. I couldn't agree with you more.

As for the issue at hand, I do believe that Barry is right in that what was said and what he heard on CNN is indeed a warning from the state department.

HOWEVER.... (major caveat here) I think it was a very non-specific, general warning. I believe that what the state dept. is referring to is NOT the specific issue that happened at Quatros Casas. CNN (like any other news agency) simply decided that we're not intelligent enough to make our own inferences so they did it for us. (Corroborating evidence sells more newspapers. Who cares if it's relevant or not.)

Bottom line, make your own informed decisions no matter where you travel.

On Edit: Don't get me wrong... I do believe that this kind of thing does need exposure, and I'm glad to see that news agencies are doing so.

[Edited on 11-19-2007 by bajaandy]

elizabeth - 11-18-2007 at 05:15 PM

O.K. Stop, and read.

I never said there weren't any problems.

I never said that there shouldn't be a State Dept Advisory.

I said that CNN was incorrect...there is no state department advisory that would warn anyone of the problem that you raised. The only advisory is so general that it is no help at all.

CNN (and I'm sure FOX wouldn't do any better) was not providing appropriate information by saying that there was a State Department Advisory dealing with camping, robbery and rape.

toneart - 11-18-2007 at 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
It's about time.
The Baja State Department won't give a comment? What insolent crap. They go into their denial mode with the message that, "We don't have any idea what you're talking about." That's what they've done for years and will continue to do untill the American traveling public finds a way to come together and demand accountability. It isn't so much the felon who violates the tourist, it's the government that says it isn't happening.
That is unacceptible, even collusive.
We need a website that will address the issues at hand. A board that will give us a voice. One that will publish our complaints and the pains that we have endured.
Anybody out there who can facilitate this?


Dennis,

Don't you think that our BajaNomad website serves the purpose of addressing the issues at hand? I think that it gets a wider viewership than any that could be set up specifically on this issue. Same goes for the surfer websites in which this was reported; they are specialized and don't have the wider general exposure that BajaNomad has. What ideas do you have that I am missing?

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaandy

Bottom line, make your own informed decisions no matter where you travel.

Based on what?

Barry A. - 11-18-2007 at 05:18 PM

Ok, OK I am sorry I made a comment about FOX NEWS vs CNN, etc.------FORGET THAT I SAID THAT-------it was a spurious issue-----

-------lets concentrate on the real problem-------how do we get the Mexican govt. attention so that they will attempt to get a handle on this problem of increasing crime against the gringos that visit Baja-------?

--------that is the objective, and I for one, am glad that the USA News media is addressing OUR concerns, and making it an "issue", no-matter what motivates them (that is a separate issue, and I should have NEVER brought it up)

Sigh

barry

bajaandy - 11-18-2007 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaandy

Bottom line, make your own informed decisions no matter where you travel.

Based on what?


Good question. I can't speak for you, but I think there's plenty of information available from various sources that with a healthy dose of common sense filtration will allow me to make my decisions. But that's just me. Your milage may vary.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
[Dennis,

Don't you think that our BajaNomad website serves the purpose of addressing the issues at hand?

No Tony, I don't. That's not what it's supposed to do. It does what it does best, promote Baja. It only tolerates idiots like me.

Skipjack Joe - 11-18-2007 at 05:57 PM

This is a first for me. I agree with almost everything Dennis has stated in this thread and I think he's right on about his concerns and analysis.

Three minutes on CNN is just not enough.

I don't watch much TV these days but I believe there are many 60 minute offshoots shown daily now. These surfers should continue their quest to publicize this to a broader public with more air time. I don't think it's big enough for 6o minutes but the other shows could well be interested in all this. And once the air time increases the state departments will come around.

The best thing nomads can do is to encourage these people to speak out and to somehow make programming directors aware of these stories.

I think things will get worse before they get better, though.

That's my 2 cents.

JESSE - 11-18-2007 at 06:23 PM

The federal goverment is deep in a war against organized crime and is barely holding on, anybody that thinks that the federal goverment cares about a CNN report or a State department advisory is not living in reality. They will first focus all their resources on organized crime, and THEN they will adress other problems.

The situation wont change for at least 4 to 6 years.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
The federal goverment is deep in a war against organized crime and is barely holding on, anybody that thinks that the federal goverment cares about a CNN report or a State department advisory is not living in reality. They will first focus all their resources on organized crime, and THEN they will adress other problems.

The situation wont change for at least 4 to 6 years.

Why 4 to six years?
Well, screw that question.
What do you know about private contractors in Mexico being a requirement for the one point whatever billion dollar package from the US to Mexico for drug interdiction? Have you heard anything about this?

bajalera - 11-18-2007 at 06:41 PM

Fat chance of any surfer dude getting featured on CNN because he was robbed. I assume the woman was attractive, since pretty women in various types of distress is what passes as CNN news these days..

toneart - 11-18-2007 at 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
[Dennis,

Don't you think that our BajaNomad website serves the purpose of addressing the issues at hand?

No Tony, I don't. That's not what it's supposed to do. It does what it does best, promote Baja. It only tolerates idiots like me.


Dennis,

I am not saying that it is BajaNomad's purpose to affect change. What I am saying is that, because of its wide exposure on all things Baja and the intense debate on this issue, it may serve to affect change by its very existence. Do you know of another website that is as thorough or informative? You were proposing to organize to set up one, I think. I do think we already are that voice. Whether or not it is effective, I don't know.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
You were proposing to organize to set up one, I think. I do think we already are that voice. Whether or not it is effective, I don't know.

I don't think so Tony. It's not near as explosive as I vision it should be. Besides, Doug is probably on the verge of explaining guidelines, as he should.
I'm thinking of something much more confrontational. OFF TOPIC as Pablum.

Hook - 11-18-2007 at 07:25 PM

The Mexican government wont act overtly on the CNN story or other like it NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR HANDS FULL WITH THE CARTEL ALREADY, but because it would tacitly acknowledge that the problem is bigger than they would have the world believe. It's a political decision.

And it's probably a political decision that the State Dept. has still not issued a stronger warning about northern Baja. This, despite the incidents that have surfaced on this board and others. Remember back to when the State of Oaxaca was paralyzed by the occupation of persons against the incumbent governor or mayor (cant remember which)? There was a State Dept warning about travel in this area........yet I believe only one free-lance journalist lost his life during this time. Compare that to the level of crime in northern Baja over the last year and ask yourself "why no advisory"?

It's not like the people fighting the cartels have no time to address the issue with the surfer and his girl, Jesse. It's just part of the smoke screen.

From an official standpoint, no news is, indeed, good news.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 07:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
From an official standpoint, no news is, indeed, good news.

Good points Hook...all of the above.
I have to take exception on one point, the travel advisory. The US put one out on Oaxaca because it served the Mexican government's best interest. The Mexican government is who didn't want outsiders, for many reasons.

The border region is becoming far more dangerous to Americans than Oaxaca ever could have been but the US government won't tell us that. It's not that they don't know. For Christs sake, BajaNomad knows. It's not a secret.
They won't take a big stand on this because it may hurt tourism in Mexico. This stance is best for Mexico. Best for tourism.
The United States is more concerned with Mexico's tourism than the safety of her own people. We're not trading partners, we're just citizens.

Skipjack Joe - 11-18-2007 at 08:30 PM

Placating Mexico by sacrificing American lives for the benefits of trading? Sounds too cynical to me. In fact I think it should be the other way around. Our government should pressure Mexico to do something about the situation using economic pressure as the stick.

This whole thing is like a pot of water over a fire. It's going to start to boil pretty soon. Statistics may not do it. A good human interest tragedy could really help to get national attention.

I mean for gosh sakes, if the media could get so worked up over that whole thing about getting that kid back to cuba (Elio Gonzales or something like that) don't these baja crimes deserve more attention?

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
In fact I think it should be the other way around. Our government should pressure Mexico to do something about the situation using economic pressure as the stick.


Right. It SHOULD. It should have done a lot of things that reflect an interest in her own but, didn't. You wonder why I'm cynical?
Our country won't pressure Mexico on anything that might jeopardize a flow of oil coming north or goods going south. You think a little chickenchit surfer rape is going to interfere with this agreement? It SHOULD but, it won't.
I am cynical. You're right. No relief in sight.

bajalou - 11-18-2007 at 09:31 PM

Maybe the US government should do something to prevent the 234 murders, 550 forcible rapes, 4,363 robberies, and 6,047 aggravated assaults that occurred in 2006 in Phoenix Arizona, a city of about 1.5 million, if they have all this power to prevent crime.


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/06prelim/t4al_ca.htm

JESSE - 11-18-2007 at 09:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
The Mexican government wont act overtly on the CNN story or other like it NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR HANDS FULL WITH THE CARTEL ALREADY, but because it would tacitly acknowledge that the problem is bigger than they would have the world believe. It's a political decision.

And it's probably a political decision that the State Dept. has still not issued a stronger warning about northern Baja. This, despite the incidents that have surfaced on this board and others. Remember back to when the State of Oaxaca was paralyzed by the occupation of persons against the incumbent governor or mayor (cant remember which)? There was a State Dept warning about travel in this area........yet I believe only one free-lance journalist lost his life during this time. Compare that to the level of crime in northern Baja over the last year and ask yourself "why no advisory"?

It's not like the people fighting the cartels have no time to address the issue with the surfer and his girl, Jesse. It's just part of the smoke screen.

From an official standpoint, no news is, indeed, good news.


Trust me, they are barely managing the cartel issue, they dont have time or resources for anything more.

JESSE - 11-18-2007 at 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Placating Mexico by sacrificing American lives for the benefits of trading? Sounds too cynical to me. In fact I think it should be the other way around. Our government should pressure Mexico to do something about the situation using economic pressure as the stick.

This whole thing is like a pot of water over a fire. It's going to start to boil pretty soon. Statistics may not do it. A good human interest tragedy could really help to get national attention.

I mean for gosh sakes, if the media could get so worked up over that whole thing about getting that kid back to cuba (Elio Gonzales or something like that) don't these baja crimes deserve more attention?


Economic pressure? for christ sake, this is reality, we buy more from the US than Italy, Spain, France and Germany combined, we are a huge trading partner, just like China is, you just cant go around doing that anymore. This is another time, the days when things like that could be done are gone, for ever, people need to start accepting that reality and stop dreaming and living in the past.

DENNIS - 11-18-2007 at 09:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou
Maybe the US government should do something to prevent the 234 murders, 550 forcible rapes, 4,363 robberies, and 6,047 aggravated assaults that occurred in 2006 in Phoenix Arizona, a city of about 1.5 million, if they have all this power to prevent crime.



That's right. They should. Have you asked them what their problem is?

Iflyfish - 11-18-2007 at 10:25 PM

We love Baja and that is why this issue is so dear to us. The US crime statistics posted on this thread point to the prevelance of these problems in the USofA and the statistics are over whelming!

I have been following Gnukids thread on the crime in his neighborhood and it demonstrates very clearly part of the problem, the convoluted legal and criminal justice system of Mexico. Another part of this issue is the context of the USofA treatment of Mexican workers and their families. Poverty also has a significant role to play in this issue. USofA aggressive foreign policy has also diminished regard for Americans around the world and the USofA does no longer pursue those who harm Americans in foreign counties. There was a day when the USofA did go after those who harmed Americans in foreign nations, no longer so. These changes in policy makes travel for Americans more risky.

I have traveled for forty years, all over Mexico, and I have never heard so much fear on the part of American's over travel to Mexico. I understand that tourism is down and stories like this have a very real impact on the Mexican economy. There also is the reality that Jesse is pointing to, that is there is a limited amount of resources that the Federal Government has to deal with issues. The current choice is to allocate huge resources on the "War on Drug Cartells".

It is not likely that incidents like this will have any affect on current government policy on either side of the border, it will however affect tourism and already has.

Iflyfish

JESSE - 11-18-2007 at 10:45 PM

7 years ago or so i posted on the late amigos board, that we where heading into what Baja norte is living today. When you have thousands of foreigners grabbing land left and right and building half million dollar houses right smack in the middle of dirt poor towns, wich creates a demand for labor that has to come from the main land because the locals are not used to working up to the standars of a modern crazy society. Then what you have is a combination os a lot of money, and a lot of very poor and desperate people from the mainland who are willing to do anything for a quick buck.

Its funny but we are just getting what we deserve, we are greedy, we want things done fast and cheap, we do not tolerate local customs, we think because we bring money locals have to appreciate us, and then after we create a huge demand for poor uneducated, agressive, and violent people from central Mexico, we now want it all to stop. LOL!!! would you like fries with that sir?

Get real, you want to know what the real truth is? look at Cabo, thats the perfect example of whats going on in all of Baja. You have thousands of foreigners moving in, thousands of properties under construction, people who want things done like "back home" and do not tolerate "lazy locals", so companies start bringing people from Mexico City, Oaxaca, Guerrero, to do things faster, cheaper, and "better". Those people start to make a little money and call back home and tell all family and friends that crazy americans may very well here so they should start thinking about coming up here. In time, the criminal element notices the good life here and starts moving up here as well, because its better to rob an american couple than a peasant in the mountains of Michoacan.

Next time we start complaining about the lazy carpenter, the slow mechanic, or the slow phone company, we better think twice about what we are doing by demanding cheaper, faster, and "better". Because it will surely come back to bite our asses in the future.

Skipjack Joe - 11-18-2007 at 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Economic pressure? for christ sake, this is reality, we buy more from the US than Italy, Spain, France and Germany combined


So why can't the US leverage that need? Am I missing something? You make it sound like only the US is benefiting.

What about the economic benefits gained by the flood of Americans wanting to retire in baja? Those $300,000 homes that are selling like flapjacks. Wouldn't it be in Mexico's interest in keeping that gravy train going?

How is it that the US can pressure Mexico into controlling the flow of drugs into our country but can't help to protect a homeowner to drive safely to the house he purchased in baja?

Something's not right here.

JESSE - 11-18-2007 at 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Economic pressure? for christ sake, this is reality, we buy more from the US than Italy, Spain, France and Germany combined


So why can't the US leverage that need? Am I missing something? You make it sound like only the US is benefiting.

What about the economic benefits gained by the flood of Americans wanting to retire in baja? Those $300,000 homes that are selling like flapjacks. Wouldn't it be in Mexico's interest in keeping that gravy train going?

How is it that the US can pressure Mexico into controlling the flow of drugs into our country but can't help to protect a homeowner to drive safely to the house he purchased in baja?

Something's not right here.


What makes you think the US pressures Mexico for controlling the flow of drugs? and what makes you think that just because a few politicians in Mexico City think that this development is good, all people in Baja think the same?

I did not say the US is benefiting, all i am saying is that we are getting what we created, so we shouldnt cry about it and blame others for our responsability.

Skipjack Joe - 11-19-2007 at 05:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
What makes you think the US pressures Mexico for controlling the flow of drugs?


a. The myriad of inspection points I drive through along the highway.
b. The speeches I watched former presidente Vincente Fox give stating that he would help us with the 'war on drugs' in exchange for greater leniency on our illegal aliens
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
and what makes you think that just because a few politicians in Mexico City think that this development is good, all people in Baja think the same?


Because a wealthier Mexico benefits all of Mexico. I think that the people of Baja are very much for this - just not on their land. They would prefer that it happened elsewhere. I, for example, would love to have our steel industry flourish back east but I wouldn't want to live in those steel mill towns near Pittsburg.
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
all i am saying is that we are getting what we created, so we shouldnt cry about it and blame others for our responsability.


I actually wrote my earlier response as you were writing this. I agree with this 100%. My Mexican coworkers here (they commute from Tijuana) say the same thing. The development is indirectly responsible for the crime. But I don't see how this attitude is helpful. Those criminals are ultimately responsible for their actions. There is no way to rationalize that.

DENNIS - 11-19-2007 at 07:18 AM

So....What we're saying here is that crime is a by-product of development. Is that a universal fact? Maybe so. I don't know.

Pescador - 11-19-2007 at 07:30 AM

Having worked in the Adolescent Criminal Justice system most of my adult life , the ideas of economic sanction and all that is "Pie in the sky" kind of thinking and the only true deterrent to criminal behavior is consistent and uniform consequences for unacceptable behavior. Because of the disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since chances were that they would not get caught anyway. I do see signs of that slowly changing and enforcement is starting to happen on a more consistent basis but the drug cartel mentality has shown clearly that with money and power, you can pretty much get by with what you want. That message then gets very clear with the small time street punk and pretty soon he starts to exhibit the same behavior. So basically I am more concerned with he anarchy running rampant in the more populated areas and it will only be when there is enough pressure to change the system starting at the top and working down will we see any appreciable change. In fact if I had to guess, I think it will only get worse before we see a real turn in direction

comitan - 11-19-2007 at 07:40 AM

With 70,000 people crossing the border every day, The amount of crime is minimal, just take a city of 70,000 and see how much crime in that city in the US. I don't think the sky is falling unless your on the receiving end of a crime, but it would be no different than in the US or Baja.

Skipjack Joe - 11-19-2007 at 10:11 AM

Using stats to suggest that the situation is the same on both sides of the border is no longer reassuring to me. I saw it that way not too long ago. But no more. Things have definitely taken a nosedive.

Numero Uno en El Norte

MrBillM - 11-19-2007 at 10:42 AM

Detroit is, once again, the most dangerous place in the USA, but SO WHAT ? Nobody wants to go there.

Comparing the two would be Apples and Oranges.

Besides, in the U.S., I can pack heat whenever I go somewhere questionable.

Barry A. - 11-19-2007 at 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
Having worked in the Adolescent Criminal Justice system most of my adult life , the ideas of economic sanction and all that is "Pie in the sky" kind of thinking and the only true deterrent to criminal behavior is consistent and uniform consequences for unacceptable behavior. Because of the disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since chances were that they would not get caught anyway. I do see signs of that slowly changing and enforcement is starting to happen on a more consistent basis but the drug cartel mentality has shown clearly that with money and power, you can pretty much get by with what you want. That message then gets very clear with the small time street punk and pretty soon he starts to exhibit the same behavior. So basically I am more concerned with he anarchy running rampant in the more populated areas and it will only be when there is enough pressure to change the system starting at the top and working down will we see any appreciable change. In fact if I had to guess, I think it will only get worse before we see a real turn in direction


Pescador----

I agree with all you say here, and it is wise-------but I believe that the "change" you speak of must start at the BOTTOM, and work it's way up-------not the other way around.

Politicians basically respond to their constituents (despite what many think)----------like Dennis (and others) say, if the people demand it, and really mean it by the way they vote and act, then, and only then, will the "top" initiate change.

Minnow - 11-19-2007 at 11:16 AM

It is funny people find comfort in comparing, camping on a semi remote surf spot in Baja and going for Soul Food in South Central LA, when explaining that crime happens everywhere.

Wake up. Crime in Mexico has gone off the charts. The odds of being robbed anywhere in Baja are probably similar to those of being robbed in South Central LA.

comitan - 11-19-2007 at 11:24 AM

Ok the crime in the US that the police and government can't stop is not relevant to whats happening in Mexico. So you think that the Mexican government,Police are more capable than the US and can stop what is going on. I'm sure that if someone on this forum can tell the Police what to do to stop this crime I'm sure they would if its within their realm, and budget.

Hook - 11-19-2007 at 11:25 AM

I pretty much agree with Pescador. The reason violent crime has continued to drop in America is due to the significant increases in penalties for crimes we have instituted in the US over the last 10 years. That, and the pretty steady economy we've had.

As to where the change will come from in Mexico, only when Mexico trains and pays its law enforcement and legal system a wage that will make them think twice about turning to the Dark Side, will it change. The punishments for crimes in Mexico is plenty severe; the problem is that there is much incentive for paying your way out of the crime to avoid the punishment. And at every level.

EVERYTHING is done for economic reasons. People make choices for economic reasons. Heck, people get into crime for economic reasons. Those that cant make a living and dont cross the border, often choose crime.

Mexico needs to change the economics of law enforcement (and the economics of the country as a whole) for it ever to be effective. So, in that sense, I agree with Jesse.

But there is something wrong when all the money we drop down there in tourism and development simply leads to more crime, rather than less. That money should be incentive for people to work instead of committing crimes.

The joker in the equation is drugs, IMO. People getting tweaked make bad decisons and begin to live partially or wholly off the black market economy of the distribution, transportation and use of these vile drugs. Violent crime is part and parcel to this.

How to stop that is a sticky wicket...........

[Edited on 11-19-2007 by Hook]

Barry A. - 11-19-2007 at 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by comitan
Ok the crime in the US that the police and government can't stop is not relevant to whats happening in Mexico. So you think that the Mexican government,Police are more capable than the US and can stop what is going on. I'm sure that if someone on this forum can tell the Police what to do to stop this crime I'm sure they would if its within their realm, and budget.


IMHO------Once again I think you have it backwards---------the "police and government" cannot "stop crime" without the support and cooperation of the people-------it starts at the bottom-------people (a big majority) with the WILL to say enought is enough, and begin to help the police and government in any way they can. Without that, stopping/impacting crime will never happen, IMO.

WE (the majority of us) have got to take on the responsibility to do our part, and you ALL know what that is--------report crimes, and help the police in anyway we can, and vote in "law and order" politicians.

(and this includes monitoring what the police do, and hold THEM accountable, also)

Skipjack Joe - 11-19-2007 at 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
Because of the disfunctionality of most of the legal system of Mexico people learned that they did not have to pay too much attention to the law since chances were that they would not get caught anyway.


If the above is true then why wasn't crime such an issue in the past? Why has crime increased while the legal system has stayed the same? To my way of thinking it's because the temptation has gone up.

Pescador's analysis is one that's very common of conservatives. The idea is to get tough on crime to stop it. And if there is a problem you're not tough enough. Jesse's outlook and mine see it as an environment issue.

Here's an analogy:

It's not surprising that if you wave a piece of fresh red meat in front of a dog he will snatch at it.

A conservative will try to solve the problem by training the dog.

A liberal will do it by removing the meat.

Unfortunately we can't remove the meat in baja and go back to the way it used to be. So law enforcement needs to get it's act together. And that's why these threads tend to be more attractive to conservatives.

Playing the ODDS !

MrBillM - 11-19-2007 at 11:59 AM

Having been born over 62 years ago in South L.A. (Watts area), living there the vast majority of my life until 1970 and frequently visiting family and friends in the area through the 90s, I would suggest that ANYONE who proposes as nearly equal the odds of being assaulted on a remote Baja beach and having the same happen on the streets of South L.A. doesn't have a clue on the subject.

I invite anyone interested to test that propostition sometime and report back on the results.

Barry A. - 11-19-2007 at 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Having been born over 62 years ago in South L.A. (Watts area), living there the vast majority of my life until 1970 and frequently visiting family and friends in the area through the 90s, I would suggest that ANYONE who proposes as nearly equal the odds of being assaulted on a remote Baja beach and having the same happen on the streets of South L.A. doesn't have a clue on the subject.

I invite anyone interested to test that propostition sometime and report back on the results.


--------and your conclusion is????????

Hook - 11-19-2007 at 12:24 PM

That's not very relevant, Bill.

What would be interesting is to know the percentage of the incidence of violent crime on a specific stretch of Baja beach in relation to the overall number of gringo visitors to that stretch.

It's probably not going to be as high as South Central but it would shed more light on your chances of being a victim in a certain area.

Many have talked about how the northern Baja areas of Camalu, Cuatro Casas, etc., as being continuing "hot" spots for crime. The number of incidents is probably rather low.........but so is the number of visitors, compared to other areas. That doesnt necessarily make your chances all that great.

These hotspots that never go away is one of the most frustrating parts of the whole law enforcement scene in Mexico. A simple sting operation would be SO effective. But there are clearly economic disincentives for the police to do this.

Whether gnukid's tale is truth or fiction, I believe it is a true portrayal of the legal system in Mexico in many areas.

comitan - 11-19-2007 at 12:25 PM

On the cruisers net in La Paz, they made an announcement today because of so many boats being burglarized, they seem to lay the blame on so many workers from the mainland here. And as far as the overall problem and solving from the bottom, you would need the Mexican people and they are hard to change. The government has had plan at least 20years to keep the highways, beaches, and generally the country clean. It is definitely better but still a long way to go. So change any change takes a long time.

Minnow - 11-19-2007 at 12:28 PM

Mr Bill. LO SIENTO!!! No wonder you are a gun nut.

DENNIS - 11-19-2007 at 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
It is funny people find comfort in comparing, camping on a semi remote surf spot in Baja and going for Soul Food in South Central LA, when explaining that crime happens everywhere.


I wasn't comparing anything. I only told a story about people being in a place where they didn't belong. They weren't welcome. There was no comfort in telling it either. They were friends of mine.
Forgive me if I have ever compared the US to Mexico when it comes to crime. That has always bothered me because it sounds like justification for criminal acts.

Minnow - 11-19-2007 at 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by comitan
On the cruisers net in La Paz, they made an announcement today because of so many boats being burglarized, they seem to lay the blame on so many workers from the mainland here. And as far as the overall problem and solving from the bottom, you would need the Mexican people and they are hard to change. The government has had plan at least 20years to keep the highways, beaches, and generally the country clean. It is definitely better but still a long way to go. So change any change takes a long time.


The recent crime wave is caused largely by the Meth epidemic.

Fred - 11-19-2007 at 12:40 PM

Hey Minnow......I will still go for gumbo in Watts and also will keep camping on the beachs in Baja..........no fear

Minnow - 11-19-2007 at 12:49 PM

Fred, Me Too.

I guess until something happens, like my wife getting dragged out of the MoHo and gang rapped, most of us will not change our lifestyles.

I cannot believe all this crap being posted here. Like, honesty is an economic decision? The price of tourism is crime, and adding criminals? I know many good people rich and poor, on both sides of the border, who would not sell out their beliefs for ANY amount of money. Let alone, kill someone for an unknown booty? Jeeezus. Help us.

Hook - 11-19-2007 at 01:01 PM

Not honesty, Tom. Dishonesty. Dishonesty is an economic decision.

Well, except for maybe rape. That's just a perversion probably aided by the meth.

Hooked on Relevance

MrBillM - 11-19-2007 at 04:12 PM

Not relevant ? Au Contraire, Capitan Hook.

MY comment was Exactly relevant to the Minnow's relative risk assessment of South L.A. i.e.

"Wake up. Crime in Mexico has gone off the charts. The odds of being robbed anywhere in Baja are probably similar to those of being robbed in South Central LA."

My conclusion ? Actually, my fond wish is that MANY of those here would give the South L.A. Tourista Jaunt a try. Finish at Nickerson Gardens and (should you survive) let me know how you liked it.

AND watch that "Gun Nut" stuff. I am a (sort of) responsible Firearms "Enthusiast". Well, OK, VERY enthusiastic about LOTS of Firearms. One thing, though, based on my own experience in South L.A. and afterwards, Guns have gotten me out of a lot of jams and never gotten me into one. I'd be long ago dead (stop smiling at the thought) otherwise.

bajaandy - 11-19-2007 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
The recent crime wave is caused largely by the Meth epidemic.


This may well be the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

It has long been rumored that the stretch of coast in question (Camalu, Shipwrecks, Quatro Casas, Colonet, etc.) is replete with meth kitchens. I have no way to confirm any of the rumors, but the recent incidents certainly ring true of the distructive nature of that vile drug.

Hook - 11-19-2007 at 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Not relevant ? Au Contraire, Capitan Hook.

MY comment was Exactly relevant to the Minnow's relative risk assessment of South L.A. i.e.

"Wake up. Crime in Mexico has gone off the charts. The odds of being robbed anywhere in Baja are probably similar to those of being robbed in South Central LA."

My conclusion ? Actually, my fond wish is that MANY of those here would give the South L.A. Tourista Jaunt a try. Finish at Nickerson Gardens and (should you survive) let me know how you liked it.

AND watch that "Gun Nut" stuff. I am a (sort of) responsible Firearms "Enthusiast". Well, OK, VERY enthusiastic about LOTS of Firearms. One thing, though, based on my own experience in South L.A. and afterwards, Guns have gotten me out of a lot of jams and never gotten me into one. I'd be long ago dead (stop smiling at the thought) otherwise.


Enjoyable post, Bill.

You are right. I misunderstood your point.

toneart - 11-19-2007 at 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaandy
Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
The recent crime wave is caused largely by the Meth epidemic.


This may well be the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

It has long been rumored that the stretch of coast in question (Camalu, Shipwrecks, Quatro Casas, Colonet, etc.) is replete with meth kitchens. I have no way to confirm any of the rumors, but the recent incidents certainly ring true of the distructive nature of that vile drug.


I agree!

Pescador - 11-19-2007 at 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador


If the above is true then why wasn't crime such an issue in the past? Why has crime increased while the legal system has stayed the same? To my way of thinking it's because the temptation has gone up.

Pescador's analysis is one that's very common of conservatives. The idea is to get tough on crime to stop it. And if there is a problem you're not tough enough. Jesse's outlook and mine see it as an environment issue.

Here's an analogy:

It's not surprising that if you wave a piece of fresh red meat in front of a dog he will snatch at it.

A conservative will try to solve the problem by training the dog.

A liberal will do it by removing the meat.

Unfortunately we can't remove the meat in baja and go back to the way it used to be. So law enforcement needs to get it's act together. And that's why these threads tend to be more attractive to conservatives.


No, actually it goes above and beyond mere political persuasion, if everytime you go above the speed limit you get a ticket, pretty soon you quit speeding, but it you only get a ticket every 10th time or 100th time then you rarely, if ever change your behavior.

Now as for your anology, actually a conservative would not put meat out where the dog could see it and tease the dog, whereas most liberals would try to show the dog love and hope the dog would rather have love than meat. And when that fails, they would pass a law to make sure the dog had plenty of meat to eat so that he would not have to snatch it which frustrates the snatcher and snatchee. :?:

Bajajack - 11-19-2007 at 07:50 PM

I must be lagging in me english or gettin too old, what exactly is a WHUSP?

Pescador - 11-19-2007 at 07:51 PM

Check this out. Even though this site offends some people this is pretty good information.
http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/baja-mexico-fishing-report...

Skipjack Joe - 11-19-2007 at 08:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador


If the above is true then why wasn't crime such an issue in the past? Why has crime increased while the legal system has stayed the same? To my way of thinking it's because the temptation has gone up.

Pescador's analysis is one that's very common of conservatives. The idea is to get tough on crime to stop it. And if there is a problem you're not tough enough. Jesse's outlook and mine see it as an environment issue.

Here's an analogy:

It's not surprising that if you wave a piece of fresh red meat in front of a dog he will snatch at it.

A conservative will try to solve the problem by training the dog.

A liberal will do it by removing the meat.

Unfortunately we can't remove the meat in baja and go back to the way it used to be. So law enforcement needs to get it's act together. And that's why these threads tend to be more attractive to conservatives.


No, actually it goes above and beyond mere political persuasion, if everytime you go above the speed limit you get a ticket, pretty soon you quit speeding, but it you only get a ticket every 10th time or 100th time then you rarely, if ever change your behavior.

Now as for your anology, actually a conservative would not put meat out where the dog could see it and tease the dog, whereas most liberals would try to show the dog love and hope the dog would rather have love than meat. And when that fails, they would pass a law to make sure the dog had plenty of meat to eat so that he would not have to snatch it which frustrates the snatcher and snatchee. :?:


Whatever.

I don't think you took things in the spirit they were written. That's unfortunate. On to other things, I guess.

amir - 11-19-2007 at 08:11 PM

3 minutes on CNN is not enough! That’s only a sound bite. It will take more than that to gather the tribes and have an impact on this lawlessness in Baja Norte.

The increase in acts of violence towards ostentatious foreign wealth in Baja is a fact. Drug trafficking and addictions are to blame but there are many other factors as well.

Baja was once a haven for many romantic pirates that would lay in ambush awaiting for the fat and loaded Spanish galleons of the China and Philippine trade. A different century, but these crimes today are being committed by the same kind of pirates.

That any of the law enforcement or military units or any other overt or covert heavy-handed responses, from either country, have not been implemented to entrap and capture these few rogue pirates makes me think that there are even deeper and much more sinister political and economical tensions between the two countries.

mtgoat666 - 11-19-2007 at 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaandy
Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
The recent crime wave is caused largely by the Meth epidemic.


This may well be the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

It has long been rumored that the stretch of coast in question (Camalu, Shipwrecks, Quatro Casas, Colonet, etc.) is replete with meth kitchens. I have no way to confirm any of the rumors, but the recent incidents certainly ring true of the distructive nature of that vile drug.


I agree!


Meth trade and use is a symptom or side effect, not a cause.
Cause of crime generally is increasing urbanization without opportunity for people. You increase population without opportunity, and some people will fall into the easy path of crime. Crime and unemployment go hand and hand.

doradodan - 11-19-2007 at 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
[Dennis,


No Tony, I don't. That's not what it's supposed to do. It does what it does best, promote Baja. It only tolerates idiots like me.


i dont know why

bajaandy - 11-19-2007 at 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

Meth trade and use is a symptom or side effect, not a cause.
Cause of crime generally is increasing urbanization without opportunity for people. You increase population without opportunity, and some people will fall into the easy path of crime. Crime and unemployment go hand and hand.


Not a cause? So the meth user that steals property only to sell it to get their next high is just experiencing a "symptom" of their addiction? Thank God... I actually thought they were commiting a crime... now I can rest assured that it's really just a side effect of their condition.

Rationalize all you want, you're only deluding yourself. Meth use and trade is not only a crime, it causes crime as well. That's a fact.

facil

gibson - 11-20-2007 at 03:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by doradodan
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
[Dennis,


No Tony, I don't. That's not what it's supposed to do. It does what it does best, promote Baja. It only tolerates idiots like me.


i dont know why


simple. since no one sees him (he's attached to a computer screen it would appear!!), therefore no toleration necessary.
For cristo's sake man... step. away. from. the. mouse and go outside! GET A LIFE!!!!!!!

The Gull - 11-20-2007 at 07:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
It is funny people find comfort in comparing, camping on a semi remote surf spot in Baja and going for Soul Food in South Central LA, when explaining that crime happens everywhere.

Wake up. Crime in Mexico has gone off the charts. The odds of being robbed anywhere in Baja are probably similar to those of being robbed in South Central LA.


Would facts change your opinion?

Crime in Baja

bajajazz - 11-20-2007 at 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaandy
Quote:
Originally posted by Minnow
The recent crime wave is caused largely by the Meth epidemic.




Meth trade and use is a symptom or side effect, not a cause.
Cause of crime generally is increasing urbanization without opportunity for people. You increase population without opportunity, and some people will fall into the easy path of crime. Crime and unemployment go hand and hand.



What we are seeing in La Paz is that crime and full employment go hand in hand. Never, never, never has there been less unemployment in La Paz than what we are experiencing now. Every day, there are pages full of job ads in the Sud Californiano and signs pleading for help in shop windows and bulletin boards all over town. There is so much work to be had here that workers from all over Mexico are flocking to the Baja -- and bringing their brutalized habits with them.

The workers who travel by boat to the Mogote project are picking up side money (for more drugs) knocking over the boats that are anchored out. I know of boats that are for sale merely because their owners are fed up and/or can't maintain the constant vigilance required to keep their boats secure.

In my neighborhood -- where some construction is always in process -- the jobs go on so long that the workers soon learn which houses are vulnerable and ripe for burglarization. They learn which houses are empty and the hours when occupied houses are vacant.

The proliferation of pawn shops we've recently seen in La Paz means there are more and more places to fence stolen goods and the chances of recovering stolen property from the Ministerio Publico -- even when it is in their possession -- is so ludicrously difficult it often isn't worth the effort. The crime and drug-dealing we're experiencing in La Paz aren't products of poverty, they are the side effects of the prosperity that comes with full employment.