BajaNomad

Border fence

tehag - 11-23-2007 at 06:43 PM

PBS News:

A Mexico immigrant-rights leader says building fences doesn't control illegal immigration. Activists on both sides of the border are getting together Sunday at the westernmost stretch of the border fence between San Diego and Tijuana. KPBS Reporter Amy Isackson has the story.

Robin Hoover founded the Humane Borders Group, which mans 87 water stations along migrant routes in the Arizona-Mexico desert. He'll speak at a protest Sunday. He says building fences along the border is an arcane concept.

Hoover: It doesn't work. It's not even a manpower multiplier cause you could do a whole lot of this electroncally if you wanted to do that. It just sounds good to Washington but it doesn't look good and doesn't work well down here.

During the last four years the federal government has built more than 100 miles of fencing in Arizona. Hoover says the barrier has simply pushed illegal immigrants into more dangerous areas. He says on average this year, migrants died 4 1/2 miles away from a road. He says that's compared to seven years ago, when most bodies were found less than a mile and a half away. More than 400 illegal immigrants have died trying to cross the border so far this year. Amy Isackson, KPBS News.

Border Control

MrBillM - 11-24-2007 at 09:30 AM

One of the stated purposes of the Border Fence Project has been to construct the fencing in such a way as to force crossings into less hospitable territory, thus allowing the climate and terrain to serve as a part of the control system.

It seems to be working as expected and will continue to have a positive deterrent effect.

Future fence construction is built around this same model. There is some territory in Texas considered so in-hospitable that no physical barrier will be required.

We are ALL responsible for the decisions (small and large) that we make and each will determine whether the gamble is worth the risk.

Makes Dollars and Sense.

Barry A. - 11-24-2007 at 11:01 AM

Well said, Mr. Bill, and you are absolutely right.

In addition: we understand that not all illegals will be stopped by the "fense", but it will surely slow them down, stopping many, and helping to secure the border, which IS the sole aim of this multi-level endeavor, and LONG overdue.

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 01:07 PM

Funneling people into harms way is unconscionable. It isn't securing the border by being punitive and cruel. It's letting the murderous side of nature do the job that our government has been mandated to do. They should be herded through safe areas so they could be effectivly apprehended and deported. Oh but, who in the hell in our government ever wanted to anything humane or sensible let alone what they've been told to do.

Bajafun777 - 11-24-2007 at 01:43 PM

Ok, I am missing something here :o, why is it our responsibility to make sure that people that are breaking our laws are helped to do so as easily as possible???? If I or anyone else engage in an illegal act towards another country we take on those risks. Sometimes I just shake my head at things people want us to be responsible for. I do not want to see anybody for any reason be exposed to wrong, death situations, torture,etc. However, if illegal immigrants are willing take on these risks to knowingly do something illegal and wrong, then the terrible outcomes would fall on them not our country. There is enough information on radio, in newspapers, on television, and government sign postings to warn of the dangers of entering illegally through these dangerous land areas. They are rough and dangerous to where a fence is not built on those areas. Our country does not have to herd anyone from a foreign country anywhere and in fact Mexico needs to step up it's enforcement to prevent these illegal crossings into our country. Let each country respect each others borders and hopefully then nobody dies, gets injuried or needs to be rescued for taking these risks. Later----bajafun777

Bravo Dennis!

juangrandebigjohn - 11-24-2007 at 01:48 PM

The fence is an insult to the Mexican people.Right now I am on the frontier of Las Palomas ,Chihuahua,Columbus,New Mexico.The fence is hideous!The Mexicans welcome us,and we put up a wall,both literally and figuratively.I have never had a problem with Mexicans customs in hundreds of crossings,but innumerable hassles with USA Customs,instead of the wall,we needed to put our efforts into faciltitating green cards for willing,able,and greatly needed workers!An excellent film en Espanol is "Una Dia Sin Mexicanos" depicting life in the USA without Mexican workers,very realistic.

Same treatment

bajaguy - 11-24-2007 at 01:53 PM

Maybe we should treat those who illagally cross our southern border the same as Mexico treats those who illegally cross their southern border.......quid pro quo

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ok, I am missing something here :o, ----


Yes...You are. If you think for a minute that I'm being liberal on my views of illegal immigration then, you havn't paid attention, past or present.
Nobody here is more vocal than I about securing the border but I think it's ineffective, counter-productive and cruel to, by design, send these people into a lethal setting just because we choose to leave it unguarded.
What's wrong with catching them as they enter instead of making a game out of it? "If they can get through here, they can have it." That is pure crap.
We have no responsibility to offer safe passage. In fact, the idea is felonious. But, we do have an obligation to ourselves to act humanely. We arn't running a dog pound.
Close the border but, don't send people to their death.

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juangrandebigjohn
The fence is an insult to the Mexican people.Right now I am on the frontier of Las Palomas ,Chihuahua,Columbus,New Mexico.The fence is hideous!The Mexicans welcome us,and we put up a wall,both literally and figuratively.I have never had a problem with Mexicans customs in hundreds of crossings,but innumerable hassles with USA Customs,instead of the wall,we needed to put our efforts into faciltitating green cards for willing,able,and greatly needed workers!An excellent film en Espanol is "Una Dia Sin Mexicanos" depicting life in the USA without Mexican workers,very realistic.


Hold it Big John...... You've got me really wrong here. You can call the fence an insult if you wish and if it is, I couldn't care less. Haven't you noticed the insult by the Mexican government when they prompt their people to crap all over our laws? Legal immigration, Big John, legal immigration.

Havn't you found a woman to play around with yet?

ELINVESTIG8R - 11-24-2007 at 02:10 PM

I am a Gringo and I was an Illegal Alien in Mexico for 11 years when I was a kid so I cast no stones. I do empathize with the Mexican people coming over here to find a better life. We probably should reinstitute the Bracero Program so they can come over legally to work and have the same rights we have with regards to wages and other worker rights.

[Edited on 11-24-2007 by ELINVESTI8]

Central americans in Mexico.

juangrandebigjohn - 11-24-2007 at 02:11 PM

Having spent extensive time in Guatemala,Belize,Honduras,El Salvador,Nicaragua,Costa,Rica,Panama,Ecuador,Peru,I have spoken with many Central Americans and a few South Americans who crossed into the USA via Mexico.Most got through police stops and checkpoints with a mordida of 50 to 200 pesos and most eventually got there,while this is not great,it is more humane than a Wall and forcing folks to die in the desert. Of course some were badly mistreated and jailed in Mexico,but those were in the minority by far in extensive conversations.

Bajafun777 - 11-24-2007 at 02:13 PM

Again Dennis, I and the U.S. are not sending anyone to their deaths. No we are not running a dog pound and in trying to be everything to everyone and not hurting anyones feelings or preceived rights we have no control anywhere. I guess we will agree to disagree as the fence can not be built in the areas where their is no fence as the terrian is too rough. Even if we "funneled" through an easy opening where they would be getting caught, guess what, they are going to cross through this area of dangerous terrian anyway. Just the nature of the beast trying to do something they know is illegal and wrong. Let's see we send Mexico millions of dollars in aid to Mexico, do millions of dollars in business with them, help build sewer plants and water plants, allow them to use our schools and colleges, and still we need to do more in regards to illegal immigration??? I think we have done all that can be done and again it's time for Mexico to step-up and do its part to stop these illegal crossing along the U.S. and Mexico border. Generally I am in agreement on most of your comments but I can not buy into this one, sorry amigo. Later------------ bajafun777

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juangrandebigjohn
Of course some were badly mistreated and jailed in Mexico,but those were in the minority by far in extensive conversations.

The majority just weren't caught at the south Mexican border. Now....If you want to discuss inhumanity, talk about the Mexican border patrol down south. They have it down. Instead of giving out brutal beatings, they should be dealing out green cards to their guests.
You see Big John? Mexico only has one border. The southern one. They don't have one to the north. How does that work?

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajafun777
Again Dennis, I and the U.S. are not sending anyone to their deaths.

I agree. They have to be stopped. Good. On that we agree but, tell me something BF...If you throw a man into a snake pit, are you going to blame the consequences on the snakes?

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 02:25 PM

I'm going to Sharkys but, I'll be back!!!!!!!!!!!

juangrandebigjohn - 11-24-2007 at 02:30 PM

ELINVEST18,Sure agree about the Bracero program,the person mainly responsible for sequelching that program was governor of California at the time,Ronald Regan...another bad President later on(good actor,though)should have stuck with that!

Bajafun777 - 11-24-2007 at 02:32 PM

Again, I am not throwing anyone anywhere, this is a free will choice that people are making with or without a fence. On that I will pop one and pretend I am at Sharkys with you. Take care amigo. Later----bajafun777

juangrandebigjohn - 11-24-2007 at 02:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by juangrandebigjohn
Of course some were badly mistreated and jailed in Mexico,but those were in the minority by far in extensive conversations.

The majority just weren't caught at the south Mexican border. Now....If you want to discuss inhumanity, talk about the Mexican border patrol down south. They have it down. Instead of giving out brutal beatings, they should be dealing out green cards to their guests.
You see Big John? Mexico only has one border. The southern one. They don't have one to the north. How does that work?
True,most are not caught at the border in the South,and true there are brutal beatings,certainly terrible but relatively rare.As for Northern border,if there was not work,Mexicans would not come,you need to see the film "Un Dia Sin Mexicanos,the USA economy would be in choas literally without them.

ELINVESTIG8R - 11-24-2007 at 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juangrandebigjohn
ELINVEST18,Sure agree about the Bracero program,the person mainly responsible for sequelching that program was governor of California at the time,Ronald Regan...another bad President later on(good actor,though)should have stuck with that!


I loved Reagan and I Voted for him for President.

mtgoat666 - 11-24-2007 at 02:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
One of the stated purposes of the Border Fence Project has been to construct the fencing in such a way as to force crossings into less hospitable territory, thus allowing the climate and terrain to serve as a part of the control system.


how is this morally different than using mine fields?

Minefield Morality ?

MrBillM - 11-24-2007 at 03:29 PM

Unless someone can prove differently, I am unaware of the United States using Minefields in other than a wartime setting so there is no comparison between the two.

That said, I have NO problem with the necessary use of mines on land or at sea in wartime. Let the chips fall where they may.

As earlier stated, WE (being the United States Government) are NOT throwing anyone into a Snake pit. Those who choose to make that crossing are exercising their free will. Bad decisions often have bad consequences.

Since we are constrained by economics, the government has the responsibility to its Tax-paying citizens and LEGAL residents to act in the most fiscally responsible manner.

Most, if not all, of our societal decisions are (correctly) based on economics. Whatever the Government does in regulation concerning traffic laws, environmental decisions, food and drug safety, criminal and civil law enforcement, are judged on a cost-benefit ratio. Decisions are made Knowing that they will cost lives. The determination is that those regulations will save more than they kill. A Macro-Actuarial decision necessary to maintain balance in society.

The most idiotic phrase I hear bellowed on a regular basis is "If it saves just one person, it's worth it".

Of course, that's NOT true and we have never governed as if it was. We never will, Thank God.

Dollars and Sense.

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Dollars and Sense.

Dollars and nonsense, Bill. We have a border patrol that does very little to STOP illegal immigration. I know...they run around the hills and park under trees looking and waiting........and sleeping. Why bother? They are the joke of the game.
It evidently needs to be militarized. Insult to Mexico or not. The BP can not do the job asked of them. Maybe that's the government plan.
The border? Do it or don't but, quit playing games.

On a personal note... I just went to Sharkys for a couple and while I was in there, THEY stole the catalytic convertor off my truck.
It's Baja and I really like the people.

WTF?

Dave - 11-24-2007 at 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
On a personal note... I just went to Sharkys for a couple and while I was in there, THEY stole the catalytic convertor off my truck.
It's Baja and I really like the people.


How does that happen? Are they practiced in stealth or use rubberized tools? And why would they steal it? Someone needs to pass an inspection?

Why wouldn't they just steal the friggin truck?

If these guys would just legally apply themselves , Mexico would have a space program. :rolleyes:

ELINVESTIG8R - 11-24-2007 at 05:27 PM

Quote:
If these guys would just legally apply themselves , Mexico would have a space program. :rolleyes:


Hahahahahaha sooooo true.

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 06:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave

How does that happen? Are they practiced in stealth or use rubberized tools? And why would they steal it? Someone needs to pass an inspection?

It's epidemic in the states as well. They reportedly do it for the valuable metal inside. Platinum and all that crap. That is my understanding. Saw it on the news.

By the way....My truck is a 97 Nissan strippy, the ultimate Pizzachit. Sharkys just went from "Fine neighborhood family establishment" to ghetto gin mill. I'm done there.

Barry A. - 11-24-2007 at 06:41 PM

The Border Patrol does the best they can------------it is an impossible job----------if you had 50,000 border patrol agents, they could still not stop the flood of illegals------the border is simply too long to patrol with people. Electric sensors and state-of-the-art gizmos help, but you still need personel to respond to what the "gizmos" see------again, an impossible job----they simply cannot be everywhere they need to be, simultaneously.

The fence will help tremendously, slow down the flood, and allow the Border Patrol (etc.) to come much closer to doing the job we expect them to---and that is a proven fact----it's a BORDER, not an immaginary line.

EVERYBODY is responsible for their own decisions, and the consequences of those decisions, especially when they are engaged in illegal activity--------the USA bears no responsibility for people who choose to take risks, break the law, and come to a sad end because of those decisions.

--------highways are designed for highspeed driving------when somebody gets killed doing something illegal on the highways should we just throw up our hands and walk away from any laws regarding the use of the highways?? To me this is the same as the "border"-------you use whatever tools are at your disposal to gain control, and that includes fences, and whatever else you can use that is economically feasible, and you DON'T make decisions based on what happens to relatively few people acting foolishly and illegally.

barry

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
The Border Patrol does the best they can------------it is an impossible job----------


and you DON'T make decisions based on what happens to relatively few people acting foolishly and illegally.


Perhaps the US government should make decisions based on your first statement.
Again, I agree. It has to stop but, a stupid fence is a ******* joke. Which south western governor said, "Show me a fifty foot fence and I'll show you a fifty one foot ladder."
Believing that a chicken**** manmade barrior will stop anybody without being guarded and maintained by people is desperate self-illusion. It won't work.
Suggest something that will work if you want to help the issue. The US taxpayer is worn thin with wasted efforts. The stupid fence in the middle of nowhere is just another one.

[Edited on 11-25-2007 by Hose A]

Barry A. - 11-24-2007 at 07:37 PM

Dennis-----

It depends on what you mean by "it won't work".

Obviously it is not the total answer, but as I said, it will help, and of course it has to be monitored by people, or electronics coupled with people, but IT WILL WORK in the context of what is intended.

The cost is a pitance compared with what the illegals are costing the tax payer now------

I cannot fathom why folks are so negative about the "fence"-------all the reasons people give for "not likeing the fence" seem totally bogus and non-sensical, to me.

But, we obviously see it differently---------------:?:

barry

DENNIS - 11-24-2007 at 07:49 PM

If you have to babysit the fence with people, What's the sense. Militarize the border and have troops watch it. If that is offensive to our neighbors, move the military line back a couple of miles and dig in.
Barry, have you seen the numbers for building a fence? How many millions per mile and, for what? A barrier to be climbed over, tunneled under or torn apart then, rebuilt. I want the contract.
The fence, by itself, wont work. The federal agencys wont be guarding a border, they'll be guarding a fence. What a huge waste of money just to make a statement.

Barry A. - 11-24-2007 at 08:33 PM

Dennis-------

Tho I don't agree with you about the fence, I have no problem with "militarizing" the border, at least on a temporary basis UNTIL THE FENCE CAN BE BUILT. :tumble:

However, I pity the poor soldiers who have THAT duty------talk about boring, and expensive (yeh, I know, we pay the Army folks anyway). The folks that go into the Border Patrol know what they are getting into-----not so the soldiers. The only way it would work is to rotate the duty.

The "fence" makes more sense, however, even if we have to electrify it (hard on animals, tho)---------WHATEVER WORKS.

People who say the "fence" is an affront are perhaps correct------but believe me, that is the LEAST of my worries. I am interested in results, period-----cut down on the illegals ASAP. Most of the folks I know that are against the fence are really "open border" people, but most try to hide that by bleating, " the fence won't work"!!! I don't think you are one of these types, tho.

All the other ideas that I have heard are "pie in the sky" ideas, it seems to me------like expecting Mexico to help with our border problem-------ain't going to happen, I am betting.

barry

DENNIS - 11-25-2007 at 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
People who say the "fence" is an affront are perhaps correct------but believe me, that is the LEAST of my worries. I am interested in results, period-----cut down on the illegals ASAP. Most of the folks I know that are against the fence are really "open border" people, but most try to hide that by bleating, " the fence won't work"!!! I don't think you are one of these types, tho.

barry

The least of my worries as well. No "open border" mindset here.....I just don't think the fence is the proper tool for the job.
I would much prefer a deep, fast running moat, for 'irrigation" purposes. That would give the lifeguards of the world something to do besides cry.

Mining the Border

MrBillM - 11-25-2007 at 11:28 AM

One of the more interesting (but impractical) proposals I've heard over the years was the one to place "Mines" that spewed indelible paint similar to that used in Bank "Dye Bombs". The idea being that Border "Migrants" would be covered with the stuff for days and be more readily identifiable in the general populace.

It doesn't take much thinking to realize how many things could go wrong with an idea like that, but it makes for great fantasies.

The thing about "Proposals" is not what they propose, but whether they survive scrutiny and are adopted. The government agencies are constantly weighing all sorts of possible actions to determine their practical application, including myriad "Conflict" scenarios.

FIRST, we need to clearly define our objective and operate accordingly. The problem is not the capabilities of the Border Enforcement personnel, but the "Rules of Engagement" they operate under. Often those rules are in conflict due to political considerations.

Build the Wall, hire more Officers, install the Sensors, fly the Drones. Each geographical area will determine the best interception technology. As with any other category of criminal activity, the answer is enforcement and not surrender simply because it's too hard.

Minnow - 11-25-2007 at 01:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
One of the more interesting (but impractical) proposals I've heard over the years was the one to place "Mines" that spewed indelible paint similar to that used in Bank "Dye Bombs". The idea being that Border "Migrants" would be covered with the stuff for days and be more readily identifiable in the general populace.

It doesn't take much thinking to realize how many things could go wrong with an idea like that, but it makes for great fantasies.

The thing about "Proposals" is not what they propose, but whether they survive scrutiny and are adopted. The government agencies are constantly weighing all sorts of possible actions to determine their practical application, including myriad "Conflict" scenarios.

FIRST, we need to clearly define our objective and operate accordingly. The problem is not the capabilities of the Border Enforcement personnel, but the "Rules of Engagement" they operate under. Often those rules are in conflict due to political considerations.

Build the Wall, hire more Officers, install the Sensors, fly the Drones. Each geographical area will determine the best interception technology. As with any other category of criminal activity, the answer is enforcement and not surrender simply because it's too hard.


Bill, now I know this is really going to pee you off, but...

You obviously are a very intelligent guy. I agree with everything you have written on this thread. :lol:

One more thing. Didn't we pass a law that we are to secure our southern border? Why hasn't that happened?

I just wish the laws that we already have would be enforced. Otherwise, our system is just what the liberals would have of it. One that they can pick and choose which laws to follow.

juangrandebigjohn - 11-25-2007 at 02:03 PM

The border fence on the border of Columbus,NM,Las Palomas,Chihuahua was originally built for a distance of 18 killometers as much as 78 feet into Mexico terriority in April May of this year.The Mexicans realized this almost immediately but the wall contnued for almost two months while goverment of USA sorted out things.In other words we spent millions continuing the error instead of sorting things out and stopping work till situation was rectified.So we spent literally millions tearing down huge sections of fence and then rebuiding,the Mexicans were really quite cordial about the error.Another example of governments pigheadedness.And YES,I am one of those open border people and proud of it!

OOPS.

MrBillM - 11-25-2007 at 02:26 PM

While an interesting example of Governmental mistakes (if accurate), the construction cited is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the wall should be built and the border secured. It's akin to saying the B-2 shouldn't have been built because they paid too much for a part. Apples and Oranges.

Since I'm used to hearing and reading trivia and nonsense from the "Open Borders" bunch, I'm not surprised.

Hey, thanks for the kind words, Minnow. It doesn't Pee me off.

DENNIS - 11-25-2007 at 03:18 PM

BigJohn....

I remember the instance, at least what was reported in our papers. If I can believe what I read, the Mexican government was less than cordial about the mistake. They ranted and bellowed as though it was a mini-invasion. They made a lot of noise over it. Now...there was a good opportunity for the United States to learn how to act when illegalities occur at the border. But....Nada.

Dumb, dumber and dumbest

Dave - 11-26-2007 at 12:01 AM

A test:

Pretend that you're an employer. How many illegal immigrants would you mistakenly hire?

Anyone contributing to this thread want to say they couldn't figure out a way to tell the difference and admit to being really, really stupid?

If so, you need to pay for the fence.

Employer Mistakes ?

MrBillM - 11-26-2007 at 09:31 AM

Conducting an investigative report a couple of years back, Los Angeles Times reporters purchased false documents from a number of street sources frequented by immigrants.

Although many of the Docs were very good, scrutinizing the original and comparing it with a legal version, it was possible each time to determine the validity of the Doc.

The escape clause for the employer is that the law only requires him to maintain a photocopy of the documents proffered and it wasn't clear on the photocopy that there was a problem.

I've done the same thing with photocopies where I've doctored a portion of a document. Keep playing with it until the change isn't clear.

I doubt very much that employers are making Mistakes in other than a very FEW cases. They know exactly what they're doing.