BajaNomad - Was this my LAST trip to BAJA?......

Was this my LAST trip to BAJA?......

surfer jim - 11-26-2007 at 08:25 PM

Went down to see the Baja 1000 .... (crossed Monday about noon and returned Tuesday about 5 pm)....This year I skipped the contingency as I didn't want to leave the truck/camper parked in Ensenada....saw the motorcycle cop waiting on the downhill section near border for his next victim...got home and started reading all the stories about theft/hijacking and all the rest.....remembered the problems for surfers (been going to Cuatro Casas for many years) .....you know , I am just wondering if there is just too much at risk now....never had thoughts if it was unsafe to travel before but now....I do worry.....

Just wondering if that was the last trip?.... :no:

Al G - 11-26-2007 at 09:10 PM

I don't think so Jim...we all need to try and affect this situation of the government ignoring the gringo...we need to stay home for awhile or do not stop in Baja Norte...period.

ELINVESTIG8R - 11-26-2007 at 09:23 PM

Write some e-mails or send letters to the people who can effect change in Baja California. gnukid added some addresses in a post he made in a thread called "action." Heck write to the President of Mexico too.

cpg - 11-26-2007 at 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Al G
I don't think so Jim...we all need to try and affect this situation of the government ignoring the gringo...we need to stay home for awhile or do not stop in Baja Norte...period.

It would be nice if you did not have to stop there.

bajablake - 11-26-2007 at 09:42 PM

I was wondering if anybody was going down during the upcoming holidays and would like to caravan through the first 100 - 200 miles together. Most of the attacks seem to pick on single vehicles, but if there were a small group of vehicles, I think that would be the most effective deterrent. What do you think?

805gregg - 11-26-2007 at 09:47 PM

I agree with Al. They will get the message.

gnukid - 11-26-2007 at 10:27 PM

Perhaps its difficult to understand, there is an inherent dislike of north americans for stealing the land of mexico-california, new mexico, arizona etc... and profiting. Many people in mexico have a knee jerk reaction that gringos deserve to lose something not unlike the antithesis, that immigrants are stealing from north americans...

Don't argue the point, just accept you need to be on your best behavior, change the perception, make it clear you don't agree with imperialism and be kind to others and make the point that crime hurts everyone. Try to be generous and kind and appreciate what mexico offers and you become a part of the solution.

On the whole mexico is not violent like USA but it has problems with crime and corruption most of these things can be avoided by staying alert. Keep watch, have someone awake watching your stuff and you won't be a victim.

Bajafun777 - 11-26-2007 at 11:54 PM

gnukid, I agree kindness in any country is what people should be showing towards each other. Further, there is crime in every country but crime is really getting out of hand in Northern Baja. Additionally, corruption is tolerated more in Mexico than the U.S.A., this is due to the long history of it and is something everyone expects. Anyone that has a better living standard is always envied by those with little or none and that is the way it is. People in parts of Asia and Africa would envy those in Mexico like Mexico does the U.S.A.

Now, history is history and fighting wars and taking from the loser was always the way it was through out the world. Mexico took from Spain and France and United States took from all of them and the England too, as the United States was always better at fighting and in winning wars. Just the way it was and that was many years past, so those that do not want to forget it just need to get over it. Just having the land does not make it what it has become, as it was the American way of life that made it happen along with hard work. Americans are the most generous, helpful, caring, motivated, innovative, religious and brightest inventors that ever were. However, we are also a fighting group of people if messed with. We also quarrel among ourselves but when attacked of harmed we always pull together as one. You can not make this happen, it just is what it is. That is why everyone want to come to America.

I choose to go into Baja and Mainland Mexico because I like it but I do not have to go. I have many areas in the U.S.A. that makes my world spin just as Mexico does, so I hope Mexico gets a handle on what is happening to Americans and makes it stop. Remember when tourists from other countries were being targeted in Florida and how fast we go on it and arrested the gang members doing these terrible wrongs. Mexico needs to "get on it." Hope they use special forces or undercover agents and get this crap happening to Americans resolved. I just feel so bad and sick for the terrible things that have happened to people that were written about in these forums. Surfer Jim, I have not taken my last trip yet but I will keep a close eye and be super careful when traveling in Mexico. Later==========bajafun777

fishbuck - 11-27-2007 at 01:31 AM

Knukid you seem like a nice guy. But some of your posts are a little confusing.
Your right about the being on your best behavior though.
But the part of the USA stealing the land from Mexico is just a myth.
A myth create in Mexico to empower the peasants with victimhood. Because if you percieve yourself as some kind of victim then you can justify your crimes against the perceived aggressor.
The mexican people are experts at this. This is usually how they whip themselves up into a frenzy for a rebellion. Just like the are rebelling against the US laws right now. They justify it because they are some kind of victim.
If you think you have a legitimate grievence against the USA then take us to court. That's how we do it in the civilized world.
But don't try to rationalise barbarian behavior with some kind of false victimhood.
We ain't buying any BS today.

ha

gibson - 11-27-2007 at 02:54 AM

where's that popcorn. Mennis / MRSBill / Skooter must be sleeping. (probably together) Time to grab an extra coating of butter.
Way to go Pablo. This should be good.

gnukid - 11-27-2007 at 03:31 AM

I didn't say that it was a justified conclusion, that the US stole land from Mexico and therefor robbing tourists is justified, only that many people across both borders are poorly educated and many carry prejudice which is the justification for their own poor behavior which may come as a shock.

I studied US/Mexican history, I wrote curriculum for US schools. I know the history of US/Mexico. I consider our countries to be interconnected highly dependent people not enemies of war.

I simply meant to point out that it appears that few people may understand the extent of prejudices against North Americans on the part of others, and vice versa albeit often unjustified. It has taken me a long time to understand the level of whacked prejudicial thinking by many of higher education let alone those with little or no education.

Its not easy to overcome this way of thinking, because its difficult to talk about.

In Mexico and in California, many of my friends are post graduate level and they even have rationalization for the poor treatment of visitors. I spend time every day confronting it politely and vice versa.

As I talk with people who rob and steal and those that fail to enforce laws I hear the echo of the same sentiment, that of victimization as justification for ripping off gringos.

I think that by discussing the prejudice and being aware of prejudice as common, we may be better equipped to overcome it and work together.

p.s. Tuna are biting in the Bay of La Paz and the auto mechanics are great.

[Edited on 11-27-2007 by gnukid]

Pescador - 11-27-2007 at 07:13 AM

I think you give to much credit to abstract thinking about why there is a prejudice. The simple fact is that we come to Mexico with our toys and way of life and some extra money in our pockets and if does not take a rocket scientist to see the discrepency. That same feeling happens all over the place. Where I lived in Colorado while going to college we were invaded by "rich Texans" who certainly had the money to vacation and probably did not live a much different lifestyle than we did but it sure seemed like it at the time and we could attribute all kinds of ills to this "invasion" from lack of trout biting to killing off all the elk. Then in northern Colorado we were "invaded" by the rich Californians who had sold their houses in California and came to Colorado to "buy up all of our land". This is not too different from what is happening now all over Baja, we take our little pile of money which would hardly make it very long back home and we come to a third world country and try to keep our head above water. So when you are on the bottom looking up it is pretty easy to generalize about the "evil empire" coming to take your land. We have Mexican/American neighbors and they feel the same way about them as they have the nicer house, with a clean yard, and a newer vehicle. It is an overgeneralization but the tendency is there to look on people who have a somewhat better lifestyle as crooks, shysters, or some type of con-man gone bad cause they have more and at the very worst, talk funny.
So you are right that things change slowly when communication takes place and our neighbors get to know us but that has little effect on the larger crime issue but I think you are right that it may have some effect on the small petty crime issue. In other words I think someone may use the prejudice issue to justify taking small items but when it comes to the carjacking and assault, that level of criminal mentality could care less about any such justification, it is simply a matter of finding a victim with the least amount of effort and threat to yourself. At that point you are a nameless, faceless victim who has something that they can turn to their advantage and no amount of "love thy neighbor" is going to change that at all. The only way that the highjackings and assaults will change is when the police or government enforces the consequences consistently and persistently.

bajalou - 11-27-2007 at 08:05 AM

Great post Pescador - I too remember the rich Texans coming to Colorado and getting all the good elk and trout. Also the California's arriving and buying up the farms etc. for way too high prices and changing laws and trying to institute customs that we weren't used to. Just take over some small towns.

I'm sure that's what a lot of locals see as the invasion from the north continues.

David K - 11-27-2007 at 08:46 AM

Also, if the United States hadn't won the Mexican War, (and also paid for California and the other SW states), how much farther Mexicans would have to travel for good paying jobs?!

Alta California being in the United States is a MUCH bigger benifit to Mexico than if it was still part of Mexico.

David K - 11-27-2007 at 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by surfer jim
Went down to see the Baja 1000 .... (crossed Monday about noon and returned Tuesday about 5 pm)....This year I skipped the contingency as I didn't want to leave the truck/camper parked in Ensenada....saw the motorcycle cop waiting on the downhill section near border for his next victim...got home and started reading all the stories about theft/hijacking and all the rest.....remembered the problems for surfers (been going to Cuatro Casas for many years) .....you know , I am just wondering if there is just too much at risk now....never had thoughts if it was unsafe to travel before but now....I do worry.....

Just wondering if that was the last trip?.... :no:

Give it some time Jim... it will improve...

castaway$ - 11-27-2007 at 08:53 AM

If you look like you have money somebody else is always going to want it, whether it's Mexico, USA or any other place. Tone down your outward appearance and you will be less of a target.

larry - 11-27-2007 at 08:58 AM

It is nice to read a thoughtful discussion about historical origins of social and political attitudes (as opposed to the insults that are traded elsewhere in this forum).

I question, however, the assumption here that Baja has become dangerous for gringos. Maybe this is true, but I tend to think that it is not. It seems that the natural tendency is to post horror stories here, just as those type of stories tend to dominate the news media in any locality in the world. Normal, peaceful everyday life is what we all expect and it generally isn't reported in the newspaper or on this board.

So here is my firsthand experience. Since 2000, I have camped every winter on the Sea of Cortez in Gonzaga, Bahia de los Angeles, north of San Felipe, and visited Mision San Borja, Bahia Las Animas, and other spots in Northern Baja. I have stayed at motels in San Felipe and Ensenada and stocked up on supplies in Mexicali, San Felipe and Ensenada. Each trip lasted about 10 days.

Overall, I had a great trip each time, witnessed no crimes of any kind, was not stopped by the police, was treated in a friendly manner at all military checkpoints, and was helped by two young men once when I got stuck in sand by the roadside in BOLA. That's it.

I don't dispute that other people have had bad experiences. Most of the time these experiences are real and unprovoked crimes. I imagine that once in awhile they are a result of cultural misunderstandings. But that aside, hearsay reports on this forum do not necessarily mean that there is a crimewave against gringos in Baja.

surfer jim - 11-27-2007 at 09:11 AM

Well....if (or when) I was to go back I will be making some major changes....

night driving....I used to drive a LOT at night (less traffic)....late night TJ crossings......never a problem....that has to change....

downsizing....love my new truck and camper but would go back to older truck with shell.....new truck is too high profile and screams "GRINGO" ....old truck fits in better....(going to miss the comfort factor!)

Will wait and see I guess....

jimgrms - 11-27-2007 at 09:52 AM

i seem to recall post about beheadings shootings hijackings dishonnest cops and other sundry mishaps , so i also wonder if Baja is safe . there are lots of good folks down there who are friendly and honest and make thier livelyhood from tourist,and i am sure they are raising hell about the crime as it hurts them also ' but precious little is being done to solve the problem . as i am getting on in years i worry about traveling alone in baja Jim

CaboRon - 11-27-2007 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Al G is right....

NEVER stop in Norte.

Never drive at night.

CaboRon

[Edited on 11-27-2007 by CaboRon]

Barry A. - 11-27-2007 at 10:44 AM

I think that this is one of the best threads I have seen on the Board (other than one short post), and I am really impressed with the quality of "thought" displayed.

I have learned a lot, and there is a lot for "thought" here.

Way to go fellow NOMADS!!!

barry

Roberto - 11-27-2007 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Al G is right....

NEVER stop in Norte.

Never drive at night.

Neat trick in the winter

cpg - 11-27-2007 at 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

Originally posted by CaboRon
Al G is right....

NEVER stop in Norte.

Never drive at night.

Neat trick in the winter

The problem is getting stopped by guys with guns not stopping.

Pescador - 11-27-2007 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by larry
It is nice to read a thoughtful discussion about historical origins of social and political attitudes (as opposed to the insults that are traded elsewhere in this forum).

I question, however, the assumption here that Baja has become dangerous for gringos. Maybe this is true, but I tend to think that it is not. It seems that the natural tendency is to post horror stories here, just as those type of stories tend to dominate the news media in any locality in the world. Normal, peaceful everyday life is what we all expect and it generally isn't reported in the newspaper or on this board.

So here is my firsthand experience. Since 2000, I have camped every winter on the Sea of Cortez in Gonzaga, Bahia de los Angeles, north of San Felipe, and visited Mision San Borja, Bahia Las Animas, and other spots in Northern Baja. I have stayed at motels in San Felipe and Ensenada and stocked up on supplies in Mexicali, San Felipe and Ensenada. Each trip lasted about 10 days.

Overall, I had a great trip each time, witnessed no crimes of any kind, was not stopped by the police, was treated in a friendly manner at all military checkpoints, and was helped by two young men once when I got stuck in sand by the roadside in BOLA. That's it.

I don't dispute that other people have had bad experiences. Most of the time these experiences are real and unprovoked crimes. I imagine that once in awhile they are a result of cultural misunderstandings. But that aside, hearsay reports on this forum do not necessarily mean that there is a crimewave against gringos in Baja.

Good points but the issue is not everyone who goes to baja is going to get highjacked, in fact the two people who I know that did have that happen had been happy baja travelers for years with a lot of experience. So lets try to figure out the numbers, like is it 7 reported experiences this year and how many people driving through BCN are we talking about? If it is 7 out of 100,000 or maybe even 7 out of 500,000, you are right it is a small occurence, but I truly hope that the numbers are not at 499,999 and I am next. I think to be on the receiving end of this experience could make for a really bad day.

Hook - 11-27-2007 at 12:58 PM

I am also aware that the odds are still greatly in a traveler's favor of running the gauntlet.

But there is a large part of me that is saying "enough is enough" and wants to draw that line in the sand...........the "I am boycotting till further notice" line.

Apples and Oranges

Skipjack Joe - 11-27-2007 at 01:51 PM

A student in colorado knows that he will soon be have the same earning power as those he now envies. A coloradan has the freedom to move to california and make the same money if he chooses.

A Mexican lacks those opportunities. He can improve his lot by either robbing gringos or haivng them pay him for his services. Either way he can't reach equality.

Maintaining that all that's necessary is better law enforcement is pretty narrow minded. As more Americans buy real estate in baja and the two inequalities mix it stands to reason there will be more crime. You reduce crime by changing the need for it. Otherwise what you see as crime is seen by the other side as a sort of Robin Hood syndrome - take from the rich and give to the poor.

The tourists that have been going to baja all these years are different than what's coming. We all lived out of our campers and trailer homes and felt we were on an equal footing with them. Not so with the new tourists.

Gadget - 11-27-2007 at 04:47 PM

Great thread folks.
Pescador, that darn avatar makes me grin every time, too fun!
I've posted this before.
Stop taking the toll road to the border! At any time!
We just returned from another fantastic 16 days in Baja at the folks house in BoLA.
We got to Rosarito at around 3PM, took the FREE road to TJ and crossed in a little over 1 hour.
When you get to the avenida de los heros they have a ribbon up at the last traffic circle which makes you have to take a right and go east to the next traffic circle, go all the way around it and come back, take a right and you are in line. This keeps that last traffic circle from getting corked with cars. I did not see any set up that would put you into the hated diversion to Otay.
While in BoLA Les and I went down to camp Gecko and looked up Soulpatch and his lovely family. We had a wonderful talk and look forward to connecting with them again here in our neighborhood.
One of the neighbors there at Gecko avoided a hijack on the toll road.
He was informed, saw what was going down, wrecked both of the dirt bags trucks, took a bullet in the thigh and got away. My kinda guy brother Tom!
My wife is already in the know that we will not be stopping for any unmarked "cop" car. They will have to wait for me to pull over inside a AMPM mini market, shoot out all my tires or try and chase me down in the dirt before I stop.
But heh! That's not necessary cause I'm not driving through their gauntlet any more. Simple

[Edited on 11-28-2007 by Gadget]

RonnieRockCod - 11-27-2007 at 08:00 PM

Gnu Kid alluded to it. That some Mexicans believe we stole their lands. But the sad part of that thought is if Mexico owned Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. Those states would be as poverty stricken as is the rest of Mexico. The Mexicans would be sneaking into Louisana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada with a hope for a better life.

I believe we need a workable Bracero program. There would still be the Illegals but the Braceros would be able to work lawfully, pay taxes, support their relatives in the South without the fear deportation.

To supress the crime along the border President Bush should threaten to close the borders to U. S. citizens desiring to enter Mexico. I think that would end the violence, bribery and gangsterism. Yes, many innocent folks would suffer but you must take a strong stand. Look at the current writers' strike. How many thousands innocents are suffering a payday loss because of their action ?

Please excuse me as I dismount from my soapbox. Good luck to all, RRC.

Ken Cooke - 11-27-2007 at 10:15 PM

My parents pushed me across the border in a baby stroller, they are too afraid to go now (in their mid 70s) since they got stopped in their motorhome in San Felipe and had to pay a bribe.

As for me, leading large groups into Baja, I know there is definitely strength in numbers. 14 Jeeps surrounded a crooked cop in Tecate last week, and he got angry and kicked all of us Jeepers out of town! If it werent for all of us, poor Glen would have had to pay $20 or $40 and would have been upset by the whole situation. Instead, we scared the crooked cop and we all drove to San Felipe to laugh about it.

Moments after getting kicked out of Tecate, we stopped at La Rumorosa for a quick picture of our Jeeps:

Bajafun777 - 11-27-2007 at 10:22 PM

Ken, you are absolutely right in traveling in numbers, as it runs off most trouble off. Too many witnesses and too many too many to shoot when robbing large groups, so the crooks leave large groups alone. Saw some of your posts on your jeep trip and looked like you had a lot of fun. Thought you were going to post some more photos of Columbia??? You were going to put them in the photo travel area---looked at the beauty contest on the boats and a few beach shots and you indicated you had more to post hope you do. "No Worry No Hurry Just Fun"========== Later=====bajafun777

Ken Cooke - 11-27-2007 at 10:29 PM

After I returned from Colombia, I had roughly 3 1/2 days before the Baja Grande trip. So, I'm barely getting caught up on sleep, let alone posting my photos. I hope to get this remedied by this weekend.

As for Baja, you can't be caught slipping, since people look to see if you are alone or not. Its definitely better to travel with 2 or 3 other vehicles.

Another question: When the crooked cops ask you for your Drivers License/Registration, why not only offer a photo copy? Tell them your license was lost and this is all you have. Tell them you are broke and out of $$, but you are aware that you can pay your fine across the border with that bilingual ticket your friends in the Tijuana Tourism Office told you about. I paid $20 for cutting a driver off - yep, I did a good job of cutting him off, and I nearly got rear ended, so the cop thought he was doing me a favor by stealing $20 from me. Next time, I'm not paying. I refuse to give up my money to buy someone tacos and beer. If I get in trouble for it, I will post on BajaNomad and explain my story... :biggrin:

Pescador - 11-28-2007 at 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
A student in colorado knows that he will soon be have the same earning power as those he now envies. A coloradan has the freedom to move to california and make the same money if he chooses.

A Mexican lacks those opportunities. He can improve his lot by either robbing gringos or haivng them pay him for his services. Either way he can't reach equality.

Maintaining that all that's necessary is better law enforcement is pretty narrow minded. As more Americans buy real estate in baja and the two inequalities mix it stands to reason there will be more crime. You reduce crime by changing the need for it. Otherwise what you see as crime is seen by the other side as a sort of Robin Hood syndrome - take from the rich and give to the poor.

The tourists that have been going to baja all these years are different than what's coming. We all lived out of our campers and trailer homes and felt we were on an equal footing with them. Not so with the new tourists.

I would agree with that theory but the flaw is that you are talking Jose Average Guy and that explains the feelings of envy and jealousy which gives way to petty crime. That has been happening for years and all of us who have travelled here for years know about that. But the guys who are doing the highjacking are probably not of that same breed and instead are, for lack of a better term, hardened criminals, who have no moral map for guidance. So they make no distinction about whether you are driving a junker or a new car, it all represents an opportunity to make some cash and the more stuff equals more cash. You, at that point, are a non-entity and whether or not you are black, white, red, brown, or somewhere inbetween, actually makes no difference. Now we throw law enforcement into this equation and we have basically the only effective deterrent to crime which is to make the consequences of bad behavior more painful than the gain of the robbery. If you doubt that, look carefully at the effects of the death penalty in states where it has actually been used consistently.
Now I totally agree that the petty crime is a totally different ballgame and class envy is as good a justification as all the other excuses the perpetrator uses and police action only has a small amount of influence on this type of crime.
An interesting thought comes to mind about petty crime and the fact that in the not too distant past (say in the 70's and 80's), it was almost non-existent in the baja as well as on the mainland. I can remember forgetting fishing poles at the dock and having someone bring them by camp. Bet that would happen today.

jimgrms - 11-28-2007 at 09:06 AM

Whenever i travel to baja 'the trips are mostly spur of the moment ( read lots of snoe in colorado ) so i just wait for other tourist to pass and then follow the group . so far it has worked out

tripledigitken - 11-28-2007 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
Whenever i travel to baja 'the trips are mostly spur of the moment ( read lots of snoe in colorado ) so i just wait for other tourist to pass and then follow the group . so far it has worked out

I used that same technique last week while traveling south through the "corridor". After crossing the first toll booth, we pulled over and waited for a group of three campers and followed them to Ensenada.

[Edited on 11-28-2007 by tripledigitken]

Al G - 11-28-2007 at 10:52 AM

This sounds like a good idea....maybe we can work on a official stop just across the border. When 3-5 vehicles are there then they leave...maybe the tourism people can set this up on one side or the other...this sounds like a safety issue FDT...what do you think?

Edit...I finally hit the year of my birth in number of post

[Edited on 11-28-2007 by Al G]

toneart - 11-28-2007 at 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Doesn't the "we pulled over and waited...." part leave you vulnerable? :?:

Bajajack - 11-28-2007 at 11:32 AM

It's gotten to the point you just about have to travel in a convoy to feel halfway safe, so whats the use in going.

After you pay USA prices for everything in baja and putting up with all the filth and other BS you encounter everyone would be better off staying home, after all we have everything mexico has and then some, just my personal opinion.

tripledigitken - 11-28-2007 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Doesn't the "we pulled over and waited...." part leave you vulnerable? :?:

Just past the toll booths in the parking lot within 100' of the booths doesn't bother me, but I'm just a risk taker!