Has anyone heard of any major problems with the Ejido taking back properties all along the ocean front north of town? I just got a extremely
disturbing news that they are trying to pull a fast one. Unfortunately I am in the States and can not confirm that this has actully happened.
Anybody hear anything or if you are there, can you poke around and see what's going on.Bob and jane - 12-22-2007 at 08:16 AM
Something is definitely going on. Apparently all (or most?) ejido property in Loreto is reverting to ejido members on Jan. 8. If you bought ejido
property and are not a member of the ejido, you could be "grandfathered" and allowed to keep your property if you had applied for title by Friday,
Dec. 21. Application for title had to be made in La Paz. We have NO idea if this applies only to Loreto ejido lands, all of Baja Sur, or what. We
were and are incredulous. We didn't believe it when we first heard about it, but have been convinced by some very credible sources. We are still
short on details. This is all I know at this point.jorgie - 12-22-2007 at 10:47 AM
WOW..............yesteraday being the 21st........no word from La Paz agent/legal type ?????
Credible sources
Loretana - 12-22-2007 at 10:55 AM
Bob and Jane
Would you care to mention who these credible sources are?
It seems strange that there has been no mention of this in El Sudcaliforniano or from any locals I know who are members of the
Ejido..........including the former Regidor, who is a dear friend. ????capn.sharky - 12-22-2007 at 11:33 AM
The only thing I heard was about five years ago when the Ejidateros first started selling these lots. The Ejido felt that the property was sold too
fast by some of their members and sold far to cheap and they were unhappy about it. I also heard that Pres. Fox got wind of it and he was upset about
it and wrote or sent someone to talk to the Ejido. The Ejido officers at that time were not like the ones we have had for the past four years or so.
Now they are very businesslike and honest people. These officers and the officers just before them are good people and do business by the book. I
was warned not to buy at that time (could be more than five years ago) as there would be problems in the future. Some of those lots sold for $5,000
on the beachfront. Penada real estate had his signs all over that property. Also, some of the property (just a few lots) were given by the Ejido
President to non-Ejido friends illegally. There was alot of talk about this back then. This Ejido will probably try to work something out with those
that bought in good faith. Our Ejido isn't like some of the others and seems to be very fair in its dealing with people. Could all be b.s. or could
be a major problem for those that bought in the very beginning.JZ - 12-22-2007 at 11:49 AM
For $5K it would have been worth the risk.capn.sharky - 12-22-2007 at 02:14 PM
Worth the risk? Not if you are going to build a permanent structure on it. Lets say you put up a very small house.....1,000 sq. feet. That will run
you about another $40 to $50K. Some lots went for even less---depending on how desperate the seller was for beer money back then. The front lots on
Playa Salenita (the beach south of Col. Zaragosa) are going for a minimum of $50,000 and most are over $100,000. Also, the City of Loreto as well as
the Ejido will tell you what your property is worth so the days of the good deals are pretty much over.Hook - 12-22-2007 at 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capn.sharky
Also, the City of Loreto as well as the Ejido will tell you what your property is worth so the days of the good deals are pretty much over.
It's always wonderful when a government entity tells you what your property is worth, rather than the market conditions.
Nothing like an ejido reclamation project to send buyers fleeing......capn.sharky - 12-22-2007 at 10:02 PM
"Nothing like an ejido reclamation project to send buyers fleeing...... " I hope so.gnukid - 12-22-2007 at 11:14 PM
Use time on your side, put gentle pressure, persist, pursue, make a fence, pay your property tax, water and any bills (to prove you own it) and it
will always work out in your favor.
[Edited on 12-23-2007 by gnukid]
Don Alley - 12-22-2007 at 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
It's always wonderful when a government entity tells you what your property is worth, rather than the market conditions.
Nothing like an ejido reclamation project to send buyers fleeing......
It's more like the city telling people the approximate market rate, so people don't sell $50,000 worth of land for $6,000. Beachfront and ranches have
been sold to people who convinced sellers that they were paying a fair price at 10% of the market value.
Some people here would welcome adjustments to the ejido lots on the beach north of town, to allow for some public access. When they subdivided the
land into lots, they cut the rest of their land off from the water. In the long run, that will cost them big bucks.Hook - 12-22-2007 at 11:44 PM
I can't imagine that if the sale was done by the book with a notario, that the city will support the ejido in renegotiating these deals that have now
been deemed to have been "under market value". Under market value when? Something like that could put a real chill in the resale market. I realize
that many gringos (like the Capn) who bought in long ago wont be affected as their initial price was way lower than even 5 years ago.
This will be interesting to see how this shakes out.Howard - 12-23-2007 at 08:55 AM
Happy Holidays.
To our knowledge we have done everything as gringos we were supposed to do. We formed a Mexican Corporation using the Loreto Notario. We used the
Notario in Loreto for all legal paperwork. We used the local accountant in Loreto to file papers. Just recently we put a fence around the property.
We got our FM 3s. It has not been a year quite yet so we have NOT paid out property taxes yet. There are no improvements on or near the property, so
we do not have utility bills. We are going down in 2 or 3 weeks to Loreto and will certainly try and pay property taxes in advance.
We bought the property through Dorado Properties (before they had an office in town) and it will be interesting what their support (if any) will be.
Any suggestions out there? We were not one of the people who bought the property cheap. I will not reveal exactly what we did pay but it was most
definately over $100,000!!
Looking for any feedback and suggestions.Osprey - 12-23-2007 at 09:15 AM
Howard, what does the Mexican Corporation exist for? What is the Business the corporation plans to own and operate? As I understand it, it can't
legally be for the purpose of building a single family dwelling in which the owner (corporate head) will one day live. I have read all the posts by
Skeet, Capt. George and others who have taken that route but I am still not convinced it is in accordance with modern Mexican law as it stands today.Bob and jane - 12-23-2007 at 09:23 AM
Howard,
Nothing will change between now and when you arrive. We were told by one realtor that periodically there are these "issues" that crop up with the
ejidos. This one may blow over and may not. It may evolve. There are many unknowns at this point. We DON'T own ejido property. We have always
felt wary about getting involved with it. But we have friends with ejido lots, which got us involved in this. I'm not being coy when I don't name
sources, but we don't want to get any more in the middle of issues than we already found ourselves. I would just take a deep breath and wait till you
get down here, then start digging into it with people you trust.
Good luck!ncampion - 12-23-2007 at 10:19 AM
We also own property using a Mexican Corporation. When we build, it will officially be a "Bed and Breakfast" as advised by our attorney. We may make
some money and we may not - such is the business world. We also plan to make other real estate investments in Mexico under the name of the
corporation. We file tax reports every month. We think it will stand up to scrutiny, if in fact there is ever any.
Loreto Ejido information
Marla Daily - 12-23-2007 at 10:20 AM
Our investigation yesterday regarding ejido lots north of town reveals the following:
-The presidenta of the Ejido, Piedad, knew NOTHING of this chisme.
-The Domenio Pleno has not been finalized for the lots north of town by the ejido, hence titles cannot yet be issued.
-No agency can trump the mesa of the ejido. This action, as reported, cannot be taken without full knowledge and vote of all ejiditarios in a
tribunal. (The Loreto ejido, to my understanding, has about 127 members.)
There was a rumor in town last week which sent several ejido lot owners fleeing to La Paz with their certificados. One Mexican friend who went to Las
Paz the day before the alleged "Friday deadline" told us he submitted his five original certificados, paid approximately 350 pesos per lot, and is now
expecting his titles—he is all set. His titles will come in his name and not in the name of the original ejiditario. (He was NOT an ejiditario,
however he became "avesindado" by ejido vote as required for transfer of certificado from ejiditario to a Mexican outside the ejido.)
Few people made this "deadline" or even knew about it. Word from inside the ejido is that the process will continue once the La Paz offices reopen in
January (probably the 7th??) after the holidays. It is thought someone mistook the "deadline" as the date after which offices close for several weeks
of holiday season.
THIS DOES NOT ADDRESS CORPORATIONS about which I know very little. We did not go this route with our beach lots north of town. Accounting rules are
too complex for us to want to deal with on a monthly basis. (We remember MANY years ago when Skeet had a surprise visit from Federal auditors to see
his "corporation" books!!)
Like many of you, we will wait and see what the reopening of the office in January reveals.
IT ALWAYS HELPS TO BE ABLE TO VERIFY INFORMATION FROM THE SOURCE. So how did this get started?JZ - 12-23-2007 at 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by capn.sharky
Worth the risk?
Damn sure. Don't be dumb and put a structure on it. Sit on it.gnukid - 12-24-2007 at 07:15 AM
Putting a structure increases your established ownership of tenuous land ownership, unless someone squats in your home and takes it over. A bill of
some kind wold help.
ADDITIONAL LORETO EJIDO INFORMATION
Marla Daily - 12-24-2007 at 08:32 AM
The ejido has an assemblea January 6 when they are to decide the amount of "fee" that will be required to get title to ejido lots that have
Certificado Parcelarios.
Some titles HAVE been issued already. Those who made it to Reforma Agraria by Dec. 21 are exempt from any ejido fee. [According to one Mexican friend
who has titles in hand, Sashelly left the Reforma Agraria and her replacement began issuing titles, thinking Domenio Pleno (title permission) had been
done already by Loreto ejido, when in fact, it hadn't.] So those who submitted their original Certificados for title are home FREE. We know of four
friends who took the bus to La Paz Thursday night and submitted their certificados Friday to beat the fee. Word only got out Thursday in Loreto.
It remains to be seen what all others will be required to pay. Stay tuned.capn.sharky - 12-24-2007 at 08:59 AM
"many gringos (like the Capn)". Hook---Soy Americano. If you read my post carefully, you would read that I did not buy a lot north of town where
this possible problem exists. North of town will also have to help pay to put in electricity, water and sewers as I understand it. Also, I said that
the Ejido that now exists is very businesslike and honest and will do the right thing. It looks like that is already happening.ncampion - 12-25-2007 at 12:51 PM
Got an email from my attorney in Loreto today, he says not to worry, we will meet with him in Jan. when we go down. He's very knowledgable about
ejido law. Hope he's right.Pescador - 12-25-2007 at 01:37 PM
After having gone through a similar nightmare with ejido transfer, I find some of the information faulty and some slightly naive. There are very
complicated laws in place that have to do with the privitization of ejido land. Any land that is owned by an ejido has to be privitized before a
legal escritura or deed can be obtained. All ejido members have the right to accept or reject the privitizing of any property that is held by the
ejido. Once all members agree to privitizing, then the ejido develops deed or escritura to an ejiditario. He then goes through the privitizing of
the property and should obtain an escritura which is approved by Agria in La Paz. Without that process, every transaction is considered non-completed
and can go back to any level in the process. We bought a piece of property which had been privitized but had not been released by the ejido in the
propert manner and we had to go through the whole process again and there was absolutely no clause for prior claims or "grandfathering".
So gnukids idea about putting improvements on the property is totally misguided. The escritura does not even pertain to improvements and while
improvements may have some basis on taxation,it has no basis on the actual escritura.
There are several good articles and information that can be obtained by doing a google search on "buying ejido property".Cypress - 12-25-2007 at 01:47 PM
When Pescador gives advice on ejido transactions or fishing, take notes.gnukid - 12-25-2007 at 03:39 PM
Great Pescador,
I know of many ejido property owners in limbo, I am not one. I am sure you are right though in my experience having some claim helps to further the
claim-that is early on it is a position to negotiate your incomplete title. But I am not offering advice or a guarentee, only my limited
experience--improvements help your position as well as hurt it depending on the level of development at the time of negotiation. Please for any one
concerned, simply get involved in the title process and the sooner the better secure your title escritura. It is not a blind process as Pescador
points out.ncampion - 12-25-2007 at 04:03 PM
Pescador, thanks for the info on the privatization of ejido land. We have done a lot of homework on this subject prior to entering into this
admittedly complicated and somewhat risky venture. We believe the land north of Loreto that is part of the Ejido Loreto has gone through the proper
steps for privatization and that’s why I don’t understand the sudden panic. The Procede has been completed, the Asamblea has been held and
Certificados Parcelarios have been issued to the individual ejidatarios. It was our understanding that application was made to the government through
the Dominio Pleno procedure to convert the certificdos to a private title. The titles will initially come in the name of the individual ejidatarios
and then under the promissory agreement of sale to the non-ejido third party. Marla says that the Domino Pleno procedure was not completed which is
contrary to what we were told. I hope to be able to confirm that these steps have all been properly executed when we are down next month. If not,
this could be another huge blow to foreigner’s faith in the Mexican government as a friendly place for investment and to ultimately raise the general
standard of living for the local people.Pescador - 12-26-2007 at 08:41 AM
It is good that the Dominio Pleno has been applied for but the challenge may arise in the idea that someone wants to do a re-evaluation or "abalu" of
the property costs. If the original abalu is registered with a notario, then it is anybody's guess whether or not the court would allow that price or
appraisal to stand. The deadline for application with Reforma Agraria is the second challenge but may well go through when the new application fee is
processed.
As I sort of understand this process, it was put in place so that it made it very difficult for North Americans to come in and purchase ejido land
since the land was held in co-op by the entire ejido. Obviously, large corporations were adept at all of the details and pulled this off fairly
successfully, but the issue was the problem where an ejiditario tried to purchase land from the ejido and then go through the privitization process.
But this seems to happen not only with ejido land, I have had friends who had to go back through 3 transactions to finally prove title or escritura to
property because every transaction was done on an agreement to sell and buy which was never completely registered with the Notario.
The big challenge comes from the fact that we assume that real estate is somewhat similar to the United States or Canada but painfully discover that
it pretty much takes on a life of its own.Howard - 1-12-2008 at 09:09 AM
Does anyone have any NEW information on this subject? We are going to be in Loreto from Sunday, 1/13 through Thursday 1/17 to try and find out 1st
handed what is going on. Any suggestions?
