BajaNomad - Petroglyps near Guadalupe Canyon

Petroglyps near Guadalupe Canyon

Bug - 1-5-2008 at 06:59 PM

Does any one have the way points for for the petroglyps near the Guadalupe Canyon. Went there last year to the Hot Springs. Drove around the canyon looking for petroglys in the caves there. Plan to go back again this year, and would like to see the petroglyps.. Just need waypoints for my GPS

David K - 1-5-2008 at 07:31 PM

Neal Johns mentioned petros in the area in this post: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=21323#pid1903...

1-21-08 update: Went to the canyon and photographed the petros... road directions and GPS included... Go here: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=29358

Here's one of the pics...

[Edited on 1-22-2008 by David K]

108 064r.JPG - 43kB

A few come to mind

BAJACAT - 1-6-2008 at 08:52 PM

do not have waypoints,sorry, the best way to go is to ask Arturo son Rigo to take you for a small fee, He will guide you to the petro's.here is a couple of my pix.

2rocks.JPG - 47kB

BAJACAT - 1-6-2008 at 08:53 PM

pix#2 this is close to the entrance to the canyon..

Petros.JPG - 44kB

HotSchott - 1-7-2008 at 09:38 AM

Most of the really good stuff is not in Guadalupe Canyon, although there are some petros on the South side of the approach into the canyon behind the first small grove of palms. As you exit the campground on the right side about a quarter mile off the main road.

The best stuff is about eight miles South of the canyon in a small box canyon known as Rattlesnake Canyon. It would be best to have Rigo guide you as the approach is difficult to find and there is some hiking to do when you get there.

Virtually every canyon and wash on the Eastern escarpment of the Sierra Juarez with access to the pine forests above and the desert below, have significant evidence of human activity. Some of it is quite old and very interesting. I have found that the best stuff is not in the well-travelled areas, but off the beaten path in side canyons, washes and open badlands well away from the obvious spots.

My wife and I have hiked extensively both to the North and South of Guadalupe Canyon and found granaries, petros, piles of small animal and bird bones, evidence of cooking fires, metates, arrowheads, stone tools and wonderful pottery.

Due to the last 20 years of increasing human activity - and some really stupid people, very few pristine sites remain. With some luck and persistence there are still some very interesting locations to be happened upon, but mostly tire tracks, trash and broken glass. Canyons Alomar, Palomar and Isabel have hundreds of small sites with evidence of early natives and miles of isolated hiking. It is best to park and hike to find them. Be very cautious of trespassing on private property and be wary of vehicle vandalism and theft. It's just not the same as it was several years ago...

wilderone - 1-7-2008 at 09:53 AM

Si - the less said about the locations, especially in a public forum on the internet, about these sites the better they can be protected.

Barry A. - 1-7-2008 at 11:11 AM

Wilderone------that is true, but then few will ever see them. So, we are to be satisfied to "Just Know" that they are out there? without ever seeing them?? Maybe so, but personally I think that is a shame.

All that HotSchott says is so true. I first started hiking those canyons in 1958, and we found lots of sites and artifacts. All were left in place, but it sure was neat just looking at them. Unfortunately, Tropical Storm Kathleen, in 1976, washed out completely some of the ancient sites on the canyon terraces and benches in those canyons. Apparently Kathleen was the Mother of all storms, destroying sites that were hundreds of years old. Still, there are some sites left undisturbed, but they are hard to find and in unusual places. The Alomar, Palomar, Isabel complex is one of the richest, as HotSchott says, and some are only 100's of yards away from where you can drive too, or at least you used to be able to drive too. I have not been in that area for 23 years, so who knows what it is like now. When I lived in El Centro my son and I spent many weeks hiking and driving all over the Sierra Juarez front, exploring almost all the canyons from the Border down to Palomar and Isabel Canyons, but no further south. What a great area.

barry

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:37 AM

In December, 2005 we camped with Mr. and Mrs. Hotschott and took a ride out to the entrance of the canyon.

The photos were posted on Nomad, but disappeared when Doug changed servers.

Here's another look...

The first palms at the mouth of Guadalupe canyon, as seen from the road:

[Edited on 1-7-2008 by David K]

11-12-05 022R.JPG - 44kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:39 AM

Lots of wind erosion...

11-12-05 035R.JPG - 30kB

Barry A. - 1-7-2008 at 11:39 AM

David-----the pic is the entrance to what canyon?
Rattlesnake???
barry

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
David-----the pic is the entrance to what canyon?
Rattlesnake???
barry

Sorry, Guadalupe... I edited the first caption...

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:43 AM

Pottery, next to my knee...

11-12-05 019R.JPG - 49kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:45 AM

more... it's all over... mostly small pieces.

Hotschott said that the Indians had a lookout post at the canyon entrance. The pottery contained water or food for them as they were on duty at the lookout.

11-12-05 020R.JPG - 50kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:49 AM

Of course, getting to Guadalupe Canyon means driving 25 miles on the dry lake bed + 8 miles up to the campos, or using the parallel graded road in wet conditions!

11-12-05 046R.JPG - 43kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:52 AM

Only the final 2 miles are very rocky and will keep out low cars.

This photo is of another road going out of the canyon towards the date farm, straight east... IF you miss the signed turn for Guadalupe, then there is a second sign pointing up this road from the graded road that heads way south to Cohabuzo Jcn. and the Pole Line Road.

11-12-05 028R.JPG - 45kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:54 AM

Mr. Hotschott

11-12-05 004R.JPG - 44kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:55 AM

Mrs. Hotschott and 'Boomer'

11-12-05 003R.JPG - 46kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:56 AM

Boomer and a Barrel cactus

11-12-05 011R.JPG - 45kB

David K - 1-7-2008 at 11:58 AM

A cholla (Jumping Cactus), also just ouside the entrance to Guadalupe Canyon...

11-12-05 013R.JPG - 44kB

Barry A. - 1-7-2008 at 12:46 PM

Thanks, David. I knew it wasn't Rattlesnake as I don't believe that Rattlesnake (Rubi?) has any palms in it----in fact it is very hard to find Rattlesnake from the main north/south road because it is narrow and deep, and almost impossible to see from out on the flats.

"Rattlesnake" is a new name for me------the canyon I assume HotSchott is talking about is the next major one south of Guadalupe (???) and that canyon is/was named RUBI by the locals back in the '60's. WE always got to it by hiking almost due south down a strike valley (N-S earthquake fault) just downstream from the original old Hot spring camp in Guadalupe Canyon, and this "strike valley" shows up dramatically on the Mexican 1:50,000 topo IIID84.

The next major canyon named (by the locals) on the 1:50,000 Topo below Guadalupe after RUBI is DE LOS ARBOLES about 2 kilometres south of RUBI, then comes a series of 3 un-named (?) canyons over the next 9 kilometers. 9 kilometers below DE LOS ARBOLES is LA MORA, and then 2 more Kilometres is ALOMAR. All of these canyons are neat, and have "stuff" in them, and can be approached (more or less) via side washes off the main north/south road west of Laguna Salada. But it takes a lot of exploring to figure out just which wash leads to which canyon-----this country is really confusing even when you have the Mexican topos, and you can spend DAYS trying to get to all the places you want to go. That is what makes it so much fun. :yes:

By the way, there is a nice hot spring up CARRIZO canyon, just north of GUADALUPE canyon, where you could take a bath back in the 80's when I was last there----but you had to hike to it, but only about 2 or 3 kilometres.

Barry

David K - 1-7-2008 at 07:12 PM

Barry, see the web page of 'jide's ' Sierra Juarez Canyon photos including Carrizo hot springs at http://vivabaja.com/jide

Do a Nomad search for posts by jide to read his reports... Last I heard from Gerald Jide, was he was in Spain.

[Edited on 1-8-2008 by David K]

HotSchott - 1-7-2008 at 09:29 PM

Wilderone, although your point is not lost on me, sadly most of the readily accessible sights were trashed long ago. The last time I visited Rattlesnake canyon, someone had burned about half of the vegetation and there was broken glass all over the approach. Oddly, none of the really cool petros had been damaged - I suspect the people that partied there didn't even realize what was in the rocks above their heads - hidden in plain sight. As with so many of these sights, you can literally be right in front of them and in the wrong light they are virtually invisible. More to your point however, I would strongly urge anyone from Nomads that has the desire, to find their way there and explore to their hearts content. I don't own a GPS and could hardly give directions to anything to within a five mile guess!

These places are our heritage as Americans. All Americans, Norte and Sur. I have met very few Latinos with any interest in exploring Indian sites in this area, there must be some people in Mexico that do have some interest. Lets just say it's not a huge priority for most of the folks I have met down there. I feel some connection to both the desert in general and these places specifically. Maybe it is the Cherokee from my mom's side!

Barry, I'm not sure which hurricane Kathleen or Nora did the most damage to these canyons, but I know of several places 50 feet up canyon walls that were completely washed into the desert by these storms. Places that I found rock climbing 25 years ago that are gone. Boulders the size of VW buses were moved, so the pottery got tossed as well. I think it is all part of the process. Maybe the next storm will bury the broken glass and toilet paper that is there now...Most pottery is found where people were walking from point A to B to C anyway. Remember these folks carried everything in their hands, and on their backs and heads. Pots got dropped all over the desert!

There are hundreds of square miles of desert to explore out there. This is the best time of year to do it. The truth is that most people are not going to walk more than a few feet from their SUV to see this stuff and 98% of the cool stuff is way off the roads. The sites that are protected from the elements will be there for many years to come. The unprotected sites will melt back into the desert.

David, Boomer wants to know why you captured his soul on film. Val and I want to know how you actually got a pic with our clothes on...

Hotschott

BAJACAT - 1-7-2008 at 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HotSchott
Wilderone, although your point is not lost on me, sadly most of the readily accessible sights were trashed long ago. The last time I visited Rattlesnake canyon, someone had burned about half of the vegetation and there was broken glass all over the approach. Oddly, none of the really cool petros had been damaged - I suspect the people that partied there didn't even realize what was in the rocks above their heads - hidden in plain sight. As with so many of these sights, you can literally be right in front of them and in the wrong light they are virtually invisible. More to your point however, I would strongly urge anyone from Nomads that has the desire, to find their way there and explore to their hearts content. I don't own a GPS and could hardly give directions to anything to within a five mile guess!

These places are our heritage as Americans. All Americans, Norte and Sur. I have met very few Latinos with any interest in exploring Indian sites in this area, there must be some people in Mexico that do have some interest. Lets just say it's not a huge priority for most of the folks I have met down there. I feel some connection to both the desert in general and these places specifically. Maybe it is the Cherokee from my mom's side!

Barry, I'm not sure which hurricane Kathleen or Nora did the most damage to these canyons, but I know of several places 50 feet up canyon walls that were completely washed into the desert by these storms. Places that I found rock climbing 25 years ago that are gone. Boulders the size of VW buses were moved, so the pottery got tossed as well. I think it is all part of the process. Maybe the next storm will bury the broken glass and toilet paper that is there now...Most pottery is found where people were walking from point A to B to C anyway. Remember these folks carried everything in their hands, and on their backs and heads. Pots got dropped all over the desert!

There are hundreds of square miles of desert to explore out there. This is the best time of year to do it. The truth is that most people are not going to walk more than a few feet from their SUV to see this stuff and 98% of the cool stuff is way off the roads. The sites that are protected from the elements will be there for many years to come. The unprotected sites will melt back into the desert.

David, Boomer wants to know why you captured his soul on film. Val and I want to know how you actually got a pic with our clothes on...

Hotschott, Im latino and I appretiated Petroglyps,I have been to Palomar but could located the Petros ?,I haven't seen any pictures from any nomads from this place.I seen them on a old Magazine...

Desert Magazine.JPG - 47kB

BAJACAT - 1-7-2008 at 09:42 PM

Palomar Petros

[Edited on 1-8-2008 by BAJACAT]

Palms of Palomar Canyon.JPG - 50kB

David K - 1-8-2008 at 10:36 AM

BAJACAT you are a very special person who loves Baja... as we all do here on Nomad. I think just as many anglos (percentage-wise) as latinos don't care about old grafitti on the rocks (pertoglyphs or pictographs)... In Baja, most of the locals are there because the land was available to them and they wanted to make a living... and are not there because of the rich ancient history.

Hotschott, about the naked stuff: What goes on in Guadalupe Canyon, stays in Guadalupe Canyon! LOL :lol:

Tell Boomer to please not eat me and I will free his soul from my camera! :yes:

wilderone - 1-8-2008 at 11:10 AM

"..., but then few will ever see them. So, we are to be satisfied to "Just Know" that they are out there? without ever seeing them?? Maybe so, but personally I think that is a shame."

Hike, explore, see, photograph, appreciate, publish photos, .. JUST DON'T PUT GPS POINTS ON THE INTERNET. If you're interested, you will also know something about who created them, where they lived, why they lived there, and why they chose certain places to "mark". So knowing just a little background that they exist in a place, generally, along with a photo perhaps, is plenty info for a rock art enthusiast. There are plenty of resources to learn about sites - symposiums, workpapers- and plenty of undiscovered sites out there for you put all your sleuthing skills to use in finding them. Ask discretely to those who know and you'll get more info if you're deserving. Off roading has become more popular due to the types of vehicles that make these areas more accessible. Thus, it is even more important that rock art sites be protected. Map makers no longer put ruins sites on most maps for the same reason. Yes, many well known, well publicized rock art sites have been trashed - that is just the point. No longer is Mex. 1 a dirt road with few visitors. In the past 50 years - one generation - much rock art has been destroyed. I will maintain that providing GPS coordinates to rock art sites on the internet is a no-no. By the way, I discovered a nice geoglyph between Mission San Borja and BOLA (the back way). And a panel of pictos at San Fernando Mission - on the other side of the valley, a slight scramble out of the arroyo. If you're interested, you'll find them.

David K - 1-8-2008 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"..., but then few will ever see them. So, we are to be satisfied to "Just Know" that they are out there? without ever seeing them?? Maybe so, but personally I think that is a shame."

Hike, explore, see, photograph, appreciate, publish photos, .. JUST DON'T PUT GPS POINTS ON THE INTERNET. If you're interested, you will also know something about who created them, where they lived, why they lived there, and why they chose certain places to "mark". So knowing just a little background that they exist in a place, generally, along with a photo perhaps, is plenty info for a rock art enthusiast. There are plenty of resources to learn about sites - symposiums, workpapers- and plenty of undiscovered sites out there for you put all your sleuthing skills to use in finding them. Ask discretely to those who know and you'll get more info if you're deserving. Off roading has become more popular due to the types of vehicles that make these areas more accessible. Thus, it is even more important that rock art sites be protected. Map makers no longer put ruins sites on most maps for the same reason. Yes, many well known, well publicized rock art sites have been trashed - that is just the point. No longer is Mex. 1 a dirt road with few visitors. In the past 50 years - one generation - much rock art has been destroyed. I will maintain that providing GPS coordinates to rock art sites on the internet is a no-no. By the way, I discovered a nice geoglyph between Mission San Borja and BOLA (the back way). And a panel of pictos at San Fernando Mission - on the other side of the valley, a slight scramble out of the arroyo. If you're interested, you'll find them.

You do make it sound like GPS owners are to blame...

Do you think the kind of people who spray paint historic sites with grafitti are likely to spend $100 or more on a GPS, then read Baja Nomad to see where they can go an mess up more stuff?

It has been my experience that the grafitti at sites, like Las Pintas or on the boulders anywhere is in Spanish bragging about love or when a family was there on holiday.

Posting directions to a historic site here on Nomad allows those of us who love that sort of thing to see it BEFORE some family from Ensenada or where-ever defaces it.

Not sharing with others who also have your values is not friendly and the memory will only be yours.

When Elizabeth and I found a site that I didn't know about before, I wanted my fellow Baja Nomads to have an opportunety to see it before it too was lost by spray paint or destroyed by a rancher's bulldozer.

See 'Petroglyph Park' http://vivabaja.com/1105/page5.html

[Edited on 1-8-2008 by David K]

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David K - 1-8-2008 at 11:40 AM

Juarez Canyons from 1967 Baja book

Juarez Canyons-r.JPG - 45kB

David K - 1-8-2008 at 11:48 AM

Zoom in

Juarez Canyons-rr.JPG - 49kB

wilderone - 1-8-2008 at 01:47 PM

Confidentiality is the norm.

http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/conserv/web/index.html

Note: “nondisclosure of sites” standard –
http://www.sierrarockart.org/bylaws.html

Note last paragraph:
http://groups.google.com/group/googleforeducators_googleinyo...

http://www.cabq.gov/aes/s5ares.html

David K - 1-8-2008 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Confidentiality is the norm.

http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/conserv/web/index.html

Note: “nondisclosure of sites” standard –
http://www.sierrarockart.org/bylaws.html

Note last paragraph:
http://groups.google.com/group/googleforeducators_googleinyo...

http://www.cabq.gov/aes/s5ares.html

Link 1 was for Australia, Link 2 was for Northern Calif., Link 3 Arizona and Link 4 New Mexico... nice links, but not addressing the MEXICAN sites, or the education of Mexicans in the hope they gain respect for the petros....

I want the rock art sites to be preserved as much as you do Wilderone... but public intetrest in them is the best way make them valuable enough for the Mexicans to keep them. You can't raise much public interest if the public doesnt know about them.

This is the same reason that Jack Swords and I have the BajaMissions web page with GPS directions... So the interested people can go there and enjoy them and to show INAH there is a value to ALL the mission sites... not just the ones next to Hwy. 1 or still in operation.

I want to make a personal check to confirm, but it would seem that some rancher or ejido has destroyed the mission visita of San Juan de Dios... because nobody cared enough to preserve it and its location was barely (if at all) mentioned in the guidebooks people use to tour Baja.

You see, when it is unknown nobody will miss it or have any reason to preserve it...

Make something known so people want to see it or save it, it then has value to more... including those that benefit from visitors, the local population.

Baja Nomads and those that read this site are seeking things to see in Baja, to enjoy and to return with their children and others to also enjoy the sites... Let them see them before they are lost because they were kept secret and destroyed by those who did not care.

Okay, that's my opinion.. I hope you see the logic in it. Keeping the sites secret has not halted the destruction reported on your non-Baja petro links so I see a flaw in that logic.

BajaMissions

BAJACAT - 1-8-2008 at 07:47 PM

You guys are right, some people have no common sence,and in the other hand, spraypaint is sheaper that a GPS.

I took this pix in Laguna Hanson is the rock formation to the left on the side road that leads to the small waterfall

If you gys have a good eye you will know if the people that did this are locals or tourist's.

laguna Hanson snow day 059.JPG - 50kB

Roberto - 1-8-2008 at 09:48 PM

You mean the date, right?

David K - 1-9-2008 at 08:19 AM

I think so Roberto... The date proudly tells all when HF (Hector Flores?) was there!!!

The sad reality is that in 300 years, people will probably be admiring this 'rock art'!!!

Barry A. - 1-9-2008 at 05:29 PM

I have a tiny portable sand blaster out in the garage someplace-----maybe when (and if) I every go back to Laguna Hansen, and area, I will take it.

I HATE grafitti-------

BAJACAT - 1-9-2008 at 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
You mean the date, right?

Yes Roberto they started with the day then the month then the year, if it was somebody from the states it will be reading like this M/D/YR not D/M/YR

Ken Cooke - 1-10-2008 at 09:35 PM

All of this talk about canyons has me ready for some more Baja exploring! :bounce:

Me and the ORIGINAL Baja eXplorer! :tumble:

Map

David K - 1-11-2008 at 08:01 AM

On the Guadalupe Canyon web site is a map showing Rattlesnake Canyon (Vibora) and petro locations: http://guadalupe-canyon.com/graphics/MapTopo2006.gif

It is too big to post here without causing the page to distort...

[Edited on 1-11-2008 by David K]

BAJACAT - 1-11-2008 at 07:24 PM

If I remember right from the firts rock art site to cayon de la Vibora is about 3 miles +/-. Last time i was there, i was guide it by Rigo, Arturo's son, didn't take any pix don't rember why? I got togo back soon.

Bug - 1-11-2008 at 08:09 PM

Thank you for all the help finding the Petroglyps. Would like to explore them soon too. I have heard that there is a pass from Guadalupe Canyon to Laguna Hansen. Has anyone done this route before.

Behind Palo Verde

Russ - 1-12-2008 at 06:39 AM

Cave mouth

Petro.jpg - 48kB

Russ - 1-12-2008 at 06:40 AM

Painting 1

petor1.jpg - 43kB

mtgoat666 - 1-12-2008 at 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

If you publish locations, you will get looters. Period. Unfortunately, the material that can be taken from pristine sites is very marketable, and pristine sites will be looted. Don't publicize archaeological sites!

Bug - 1-12-2008 at 08:53 AM

What canyon russ did you find the mouth of that rock with petroglyps. That is a really neat that you found that. The desert has much to offer.

Russ - 1-12-2008 at 10:57 AM

Bug, Across the hwy. from Palo Verde you'll see a blue sign follow that road and ask at the first rancho. You're suppose to have a guide for this one but I think any rancher in the area will get you there.

Roberto - 1-12-2008 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
If you publish locations, you will get looters. Period. Unfortunately, the material that can be taken from pristine sites is very marketable, and pristine sites will be looted. Don't publicize archaeological sites!

Obviously, but good luck convincing DK of that. He's been 'splainin how that's not true for years. Regardless of others tell him about archaeological sites and other stuff, he just keeps playing the same tune. The "Nomad brotherhood" would never do that, he says (paraphrasing). Go figure - he doesn't seem to understand that this is nothing more than a public website that people post on. Some friendships have been made, I'm sure, but it's the public Internet, nothing more.

David K - 1-12-2008 at 04:48 PM

I have been to Baja petro sites before most here have ever been to Baja and before many were even born... The sites are not secrets, they were published in books... By showing them here, those who will not get there will enjoy them, and by giving directions to them those who can enjoy them in person, will... Let's see them before the local punks or vacationing families that Roberto claims use Nomad to find these sites paint over them.

Shame on those who have seen them and think nobody else here has the right to as well.

I did find a nice petro site that I didn't know about and shared it with you here before it is painted or some rancher bulldozes it. It is worthless if unknown... and priceless if shared... and gone forever once it is ruined.
All those who enjoy these sites should know where they are so they can be experienced.

If you really think those paint sprayers are reading THIS site just salivating at a petro they can ruin (if they even read English), then how about this:

I will provide GPS and exact milages to future sites I show here on Nomad only via email or Nomad U2U. Emails must come from registered Baja Nomad members, not lurkers.

IS THAT A FAIR COMPROMISE?

Have a nice day and GO CHARGERS!

Roberto - 1-12-2008 at 10:47 PM

David, the point has nothing to do with what you did with your parents when you were a kid. I'm two years older that you are, and I do not think that the places I was at as a child make me an "explorer". The POINT is that you want to deny what is patently obvious and amply demonstrated time after time - publicity does NOT help remote sites. What do you think, some museum or historical society will see your GPS waypoints and decide to hire security for them? :lol:

It's pretty simple - those that are interested enough to spend the time and trouble to find out-of-the way places are more likely to care for them than those that look the locations up on a website and follow their GPS there. You think these places we're talking about will be turned into National Parks like Yosemite?

[Edited on 1-13-2008 by Roberto]

Some facts

David K - 1-12-2008 at 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
David, the point has nothing to do with what you did with your parents when you were a kid. I'm two years older that you are, and I do not think that the places I was at as a child make me an "explorer". The POINT is that you want to deny what is patently obvious and amply demonstrated time after time - publicity does NOT help remote sites. What do you think, some museum or historical society will see your GPS waypoints and decide to hire security for them? :lol:

Well Roberto, I never visited petro sites with my parents, before I turned 16 and started going to Baja on my own... My dad loved fishing, and that was the draw for him... I went to my first petro site on my first 'non-parent' trip to Baja at 16 (with a high school friend) during Easter Vacation, 1974... the cliff just west of Mision San Fernando Velicata where we camped the first night out from San Diego.

I loved Baja for much more than fishing... the history and natural beauty, beaches and to be involved in off road racing all brought me down.

So, once again you are in error about me or why I share my trips here on Nomad... and once again I wonder why you feel the need to so badly speak against my contributions to this site?

The sites must be seen by those that want to before they are gone... I will continue to encourage people to be excited by the past human events on the peninsula and to see them, enjoy them, and show the locals how VALUABLE they are IF preserved and un-molested by pranksters or stupid people...

Doing nothing, saying nothing will not, nor has not prevented grafitti or preserved history... it just allows it to disappear forever... nothing learned, nothing gained...

So you and those who think that silence is best... just go ahead and keep your memories until you die... Unlike you, I want as many people to have the experience of enjoying the history of Baja that want to, and will provide as much as I am able.

People are here on Nomad to get something, not to see nothing. If you don't want to see or read about the great sites in Baja, then this site, or at least my posts should be avoided by you... yes?

Barry A. - 1-12-2008 at 11:57 PM

With all do respect, Roberto, the policy you espouse can arguably cause MORE damage to sites--------and if you don't understand that then I probably cannot convince you.

Another point: If folks don't get to see these sites, then in reality what good are they??? These sites only have value when "people" GIVE them value-----they have no intrinsic value of their own.

------as I have said before, you are, in a sense, punishing all folks (except the "elete" priviledged folks in-the-know) to control the actions of a very minor few. This makes a lot of us just angry!! Sharing information as David does causes only certain (selfish??) elete to get mad, it seems to me, because they either don't understand, or they want it all for themselves and their chosen bretheren!!

Protection of ANYTHING is a shared responsibility in a free society----to do otherwise just reduces that freedom little by little, IMO. To intentionally keep information from people makes them feel like outcasts.

Just another point of view.

Barry A. - 1-13-2008 at 12:01 AM

Ha!!!! David and I posted at almost precisely the same time, and no, we did not coordinate our comments. :lol:

Roberto - 1-13-2008 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
------as I have said before, you are, in a sense, punishing all folks (except the "elete" priviledged folks in-the-know) to control the actions of a very minor few. This makes a lot of us just angry!!

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that making these sites available to those that do not wish to go to the trouble of finding them is the problem. These are not elites in any way, what makes you say that? This all seems like common sense to me, but maybe not. It's the same as saying that those who do not have to work hard for things tend to have less appreciation for them.

David K - 1-13-2008 at 10:04 AM

One of the best publicized sites, close to Hwy. 1, visited a lot and very colorful have not been damaged (Cataviña)... The next one that is also not damaged and is well known, you can drive right to it is Montevideo, off the San Borja road...

So, I think publicity & exposure helps based on these two examples... yes?

Barry is a former BLM and park service ranger, so if my logic doesn't make sense to you... his should.

It is the lesser known, hard to get to sites that are actually in the most perrill... So, lets all go there, enjoy them, keep vandals guessing if they will be caught by surprise Nomad visitors!

Barry A. - 1-13-2008 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

Roberto-----I do appreciate your point of view, and from what you write you do seem very sincere. I just philosophically disagree. To see most of the "sites" in the Baja wilds is going to take some effort by folks, and thereby it is not "easy" to get there, I am thinking. For many, simply going to Baja takes a special type of person that appreciates what he or she is seeing, I believe (hopefully?).

My "eletist" reference is to the minority of folks that want to close roads; delete many roads from newly published maps; delete many references to points-of-interest, historical and archeaological sites; seal up or bury old mine shafts; remove and obliterate historical buildings and ruins because they are "attractive nuisances" and/or "eyesores"; and generally discourage and prohibit folks from going out and enjoying all the public lands have to offer. Many of these "close everything" people are really not interested in going out there themselves, and some just want to "preserve" sites forever so that they and their selected friends can go see them undisturbed and seldom visited (like the Sierra Club). I call these folks "eletists", tho most do mean well.

My family and I were members of the Sierra Club for many years back in the 50's and 60's, but we left the club because of their unreasonable stands, and poorly thoughout positions on many things, in our opinion. Some restrictions are unfortunately necessary, but lots of them are overkill and damaging, and do little more than just anger people. When in doubt I favor trusting people to act responsibly, and if they don't then HAMMER them, and I mean HAMMER! For those few sites and areas of such significance that to lose them would alter our total knowledge and education, then yes by all means protect them in any way possible. There are very few sites in that category.

In my area here in Redding, CA , the BLM and Forest Service has closed up so much that there is very little for the Rangers to patrol and protect, leaving them ample time to sit at their desks doing paper work-------and yes, I am exagerating a little, but not much. I think it is appalling!!

I agree with David on most of the sites in the Baja wilds.

Barry

Roberto - 1-13-2008 at 11:49 AM

Barry, I kind of figured that's what you were referring to. This is another subject, let's keep the two apart.

Barry A. - 1-13-2008 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Barry, I kind of figured that's what you were referring to. This is another subject, let's keep the two apart.

I must be thick as I fail to see the "difference", but I agree that we have beaten this horse to death.

:lol:

Is the horse dead yet?

David K - 1-13-2008 at 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
One of the best publicized sites, close to Hwy. 1, visited a lot and very colorful have not been damaged (Cataviña)... The next one that is also not damaged and is well known, you can drive right to it is Montevideo, off the San Borja road...

So, I think publicity & exposure helps based on these two examples... yes?

Barry is a former BLM and park service ranger, so if my logic doesn't make sense to you... his should.

It is the lesser known, hard to get to sites that are actually in the most perrill... So, lets all go there, enjoy them, keep vandals guessing if they will be caught by surprise Nomad visitors!

No reply to this, I see?? Have a nice Sunday, Roberto...

BAJACAT - 1-13-2008 at 08:10 PM

Does PETA know about this, dead Horse.. :tumble:

Roberto - 1-13-2008 at 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No reply to this, I see??

David, do you have a point with that comment? I totally disagree with you, and Barry, so what? And, I have a life, so i had other things to do besides discuss this with you. What a concept. You should try that, sometime?

Barry A. - 1-13-2008 at 08:54 PM

Cat-------Probably not, but don't be giving out the coordinates less somebody surfing the net find it and kill it, or worse, put a fence around it.

BAJACAT - 1-13-2008 at 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Cat-------Probably not, but don't be giving out the coordinates less somebody surfing the net find it and kill it, or worse, put a fence around it.

Haa thats funny Barry.Im happy to inform you that this horse is well living in Rancho San Luis (Laguna Hanson)..upss here I go disclosing the where abouts of this horse,is road kill for sure now. :lol:

David K - 1-14-2008 at 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
No reply to this, I see??

Do you know how to say "I'm sorry I was wrong about you, again"?

:lol:

[Edited on 1-14-2008 by David K]

Roberto - 1-14-2008 at 01:25 PM

Wong about what, David? You have an opinion. I have another. I disagree with yours. What's to be wrong about?

You really are clueless.

And, I consider this particular horse officially dead, so carry on without me, please.

[Edited on 1-14-2008 by Roberto]

HotSchott - 1-15-2008 at 08:22 AM

I don't know if it is possible for there to be so many correct opinions about the same thing, but what the heck, here I go. It has been my experience that it is not discovery of sites or mapping them that eventually leads to their destruction. It is actually much more basic when you stand back from the problem. I have visited archaeological sites in California, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona and Baja Norte. They all have many things in common. First they are all interesting to me and equally irrelevant to others. It's about values. I sense appreciation and significance to these places at an emotional level. Many of them are extremely hard to find and dangerous to get into like some of the Anasazi ruins on the sides of cliffs. I have hiked with people and driven off road with others that simply have no appreciation for any of this stuff. Artifacts and obvious historical sites hold no significance to them. They don't necessarily go anywhere specifically looking for things to destroy, but they don't get wowed by any of it either. There is normally nothing malicious about it.

As I mentioned before, It takes a certain degree of physical awareness to identify things of ancient origin even when it is under your nose. Many places I have been over the years (especially in Baja) had never been travelled at all except on foot. With the introduction of vehicles, vehicle races and off road activity in general so many remote locations became playgrounds for off roaders. The Eastern escarpment of the Sierra Juarez is the epitome of what I am talking about. I still don't believe that people go looking for sites to trash. It is more like people that know nothing about the historical significance of of certain areas and may not value their significance are going more places in greater numbers than ever before. It is simple human population explosion. As these people camp in more and more remote canyons without restrictions and light huge fires, and defecate in the open and paint rocks with graffiti and leave trash the areas significance to me is lost. I don't own a quad or a dirt bike. I know lots of people that do and don't leave their mark everywhere. It's all about values and population and accessibility.

In the US we have not "fixed" the problem either. With all the restrictions, laws and regulations and resources to protect native sites, most were still looted or trashed long ago. People on horseback trashed Indian sites 100 years ago because many people hated Native Americans. We humans have no common values, which is the philosophical root of all problems historically and now. Our perceptions of what is important to us individually has directed our actions through history and continues to do so now.

So to back away from the problem, the guy (or gal) that started this thread by asking for GPS coordinates to specific locations for petros. Does anyone here think is asking so he can drive four hours into the desert with a portable generator and a jackhammer and grind this stuff off a wall? Does anybody think he is from National Geographic doing a special documentary on the rapidly disappearing heritage sites in Northern Baja? Here's a thought, maybe he is an average Joe like some of us that thinks this stuff is cool and wants to show his kids something that have never seen in the US because most of them are gone.

As I said before, I don't own a GPS and I have no opinion on how they should be used or not. Curiosity is a sign of intelligence and it has been my experience that intelligent people usually don't ask questions for vindictive reasons. Archaeological sites get trashed by the acts of stupid people and sadly I think there are more stupid people on the planet than smart people. Stupid people with money. Stupid people with little value for anything they don't personally understand. Stupid people running our governments telling us how we should live our lives. It seems inevitable that changes in the world are increasingly not for the better where the environment is concerned and this is nothing new.

But for the curious few that would ask where or how to observe something different and special, I think providing a modern answer to their quest with a few words requesting certain respect be shown to these areas is pretty damn reasonable to me. Protecting the world with an opinion doesn't seem to be working for most of the planet that I have seen. Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one and nobody wants another one.

[Edited on 1-15-2008 by HotSchott]

Barry A. - 1-15-2008 at 10:11 AM

Very well said, Hotshott!!!

I feel very much the same way as you do, and I do think you are on to something.

The only part that I might slightly differ from you is in the "state" of pictograph and petroglyth sites today-------I am not quite as cynical as you----------I do believe that we are losing many pictograph sites, but mostly too weathering, and not vandalism. I have recently visited some of the anasazi petroglyth sites in Utah and Colorado that I first visited some 40 years ago and they looked essentially the same as before, except they appeared slightly dimmer, and not as "sharp" as I remember them, and that show up in my old photographs. Also, the huge share of vandalism to those sites is very old, and consists of gunshot wounds and actual crude thefts, both occuring over 60 years ago, or more.

The pictograph sites in Anza-Borrego have definitely "faded" since I first saw them as a kid some 60 years ago, and that is directly the result of weathering, not vandals.

But there are still thousands of sites throughout the west that are visible, have not been vandalized, and are still a joy to see, and awesome to just contemplate.

Again, you have made a great contribution to the discussion here, I believe, and I thank you for your observations and I think, valid conclusions.

Barry

David K - 1-22-2008 at 02:42 PM

Link to petroglyph photos and location directions visited after this thread was started by 'Bug' is here: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=29358

Here's one as seen from the parking area at Rattlesnake (Vibora) Canyon entrance... 8.0 road miles from Guadalupe Canyon:

108 105r.JPG - 38kB

BAJACAT - 1-24-2008 at 12:01 PM

B C NORTE,is full of this guys,(petro's)
If you like PETROGLYPHS,YOU are going to enjoy this link.http://www.petroglyphs.us/photographs_pictographs_petroglyphs_baja_norte_california_BC.htm

Ken Cooke - 1-24-2008 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BAJACAT
B C NORTE,is full of this guys,(petro's)
If you like PETROGLYPHS,YOU are going to enjoy this link.http://www.petroglyphs.us/photographs_pictographs_petroglyphs_baja_norte_california_BC.htm

That was a cool link, 'Cat. So, I read somewhere that the tribal elders would produce petros while the younger generation was away tending to the children or hunting for food. Do you know anything about this? My great-grandmother was fascinated by the Native American people, so her son, my Grandfather wrote a story about one of the stories she used to tell. I find all of this interesting, too.

BAJACAT - 1-25-2008 at 11:31 AM

In all the books I have read they hardly ,discribe the autors of this great pictures.I may be mistaken,but maybe people like David Kier,or Jack swords or Academicanarquist would know more.In most tribes the helders where responsable for planning and the making of this paintings.

[Edited on 1-25-2008 by BAJACAT]

LA MORA CANYON

BAJACAT - 1-25-2008 at 06:17 PM

This quote comes from this book CAMPING AND CLIMBING IN BAJA by John W Robinson dated 1975 .
The stream in canyon La Mora is dry except i n the wettest months.but several small springs provide year around water several miles up canyon.scattered groves of washingtonia palms are located in the middle and upper reaches of the gorge.Petroglyphs opposite a cave about four miles from the entrance reveal that indians once inhabited the canyon..

Barry what do you know about this and do you have pictures of this Petros from Canyon La Mora...

[Edited on 1-26-2008 by BAJACAT]