BajaNomad

War on drugs and other garbage

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 05:14 PM

Wondering what you folks, especially those with combat experience, would do if you commanded the forces in Tijuana?

Yesterday gave the country a wakeup call. It sayed, "How could you have the nerve to mess with us? You are we and we are you and what you did was a huge mistake."

I sadly believe that this is only a beginning and the war is on. It's an insurgency and the authorities are so conflicted that they can't establish an adversary.

What happened yesterday? Cops assault a safe house, known to hold the enemy, go into a fire fight, then.. remember there are kids in the area schools. Bad planning, for sure.

Sorry to say it but the elite of the Mexican military are inept. Their ineptness cost lives.
Why don't they hire professionals with professional intel and act accordingly. They didn't have to take on this this hot-house in the middle of school hours, hostages or not. They should have hit it earlier.

Easy for me to say? Yeah...it is because it's easy to see.

What's your opinion?

rts551 - 1-18-2008 at 05:18 PM

Dennis

Todays "combat experience"???? "Inept?" When were you in the military

Retired DMAFB 2005

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 05:22 PM

Nam era y mas.

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 05:26 PM

Forgot to mention - 100% service connected disability, PTSD and other uncomfortable crap.


Why would you ask?

rts551 - 1-18-2008 at 05:32 PM

I ask because our own military lacks much of the same planning and "eptness". I can say that now after many years. NAM era says nothing... we all went.. #78 first lottery. enough of this.... The problems faced by Mexico (many) won't be solved by our nuke em mentality

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551

Retired DMAFB 2005


What is that? Were you in it? Were you really in it?
Tell me about it.
Mine was combat...What was yours?
Since you brought it up.

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
I ask because our own military lacks much of the same planning and "eptness". I can say that now after many years. NAM era says nothing... we all went.. #78 first lottery. enough of this.... The problems faced by Mexico (many) won't be solved by our nuke em mentality


How can you say this? What's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan today is the same thing that is happening in Mexico today. A strong illegal army wants power. And, if it's not strongly addressed, they will have it. They'll earn it. They'll fight for it and win it.
Then what?

rts551 - 1-18-2008 at 06:16 PM

you are right. I stand corrected

Sharksbaja - 1-18-2008 at 07:47 PM

You need a vacation.:lol:

bajaguy - 1-18-2008 at 08:23 PM

"Wondering what you folks, especially those with combat experience, would do if you commanded the forces in Tijuana?"

Dennis.....will have to discuss this with you over breakfast on my next trip.

capn.sharky - 1-18-2008 at 09:40 PM

I too was in Viet Nam with the MAG group. Do you think our military intelligence is any better or smarter than Mexicos. Remember the lst Air Cav. set down in the middle of two divisions of VC. And who ran the War (oops police action) in Vietnam---politicans in Washington with no military experience whatsoever. Don't cross into this country or that one. Its a wonder we lasted as long as we did. Did Bush Sr. listen to Swartzkopf---NO. What about all the WMD in Iraq? Maybe the safe house in Tijuana was unoccupied earlier/ we need more facts before we go pointing the finger. Nuff said.

DENNIS - 1-18-2008 at 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
You need a vacation.:lol:




who?

gibson - 1-18-2008 at 11:11 PM

a joint is what he really needs

Sharksbaja - 1-19-2008 at 12:02 AM

don't we all.....:lol:

JESSE - 1-19-2008 at 01:16 AM

The Mexican military could have killed everybody inside that house in less than 10 minutes. Mexican intelligence gave the order to get them alive, and i guarantee you, by now they must be somewhere regreting what they did and spilling their guts about everything.

Also, this was not a planned military operation, the feds where the ones investigating and apparently they ran into the killers.

I personally think whats going on right now is good, the military and the feds are on clean up mode, so its going to get ugly in the next months, but it will get better.

bajadock - 1-19-2008 at 09:09 AM

No military experience here. Dennis and others, what is different about "war on drugs" in USA v. Mexico? This is not a rhetorical question. Hope that similarities/differences may shed light on potential solutions. Thanks.

DENNIS - 1-19-2008 at 09:20 AM

Not a whole lot of difference, Doc. The enemy is the same but, they happen to be on the south side of the border.
It seems to have morphed into more than a "war on drugs." Now it's a war over power and control of the country. We won't see this in the states. At least, I hope not.

kimberlee - 1-19-2008 at 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Not a whole lot of difference, Doc. The enemy is the same but, they happen to be on the south side of the border.
It seems to have morphed into more than a "war on drugs." Now it's a war over power and control of the country. We won't see this in the states. At least, I hope not.


From another article in another thread:

"Now, along the border, Mexican drug traffickers are trying to extend their culture of corruption to the north, targeting Border Patrol and military officials they think might be tempted by easy money."

Unfortunately Dennis you WILL see this in the states, especially if illegal immigration from the South continues unchecked. You see in Mexico there's a certain part of the culture that accepts corruption as part of everyday life and the more people that come from the south for the "american dream", the more this culture will penetrate your country.

After much debate and many years pondering a possible solution to this drug problem the only thing that will alleviate this situation is outright legalization of all recreational drugs. Make state mandated licenses meth labs. Have certain drugs be controlled substances like pharmaceuticals. The drug war hasn't worked in 25+ years and look at where we're at today. I do agree with much that you say and I, like you, am seriously frustrated about this. Calderon is only doing what the US government wants him to do. He really wants that 1,4 Billion dollars.

DENNIS - 1-19-2008 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kimberlee
Unfortunately Dennis you WILL see this in the states,


Not to the degree which we see it in Mexico. Corruption has been a characteristic of government here forever. Hopefully, with better pay and living standards, that will change.

bajaguy - 1-19-2008 at 12:51 PM

"Calderon is only doing what the US government wants him to do. He really wants that 1,4 Billion dollars."..................

Calderon should put a large part of that 1.4 billion into ammunition and stage more of the ops like the one in TJ.......

The more of these ratones, dopers, cartels and gangs that are shot up the better.........It sends a strong message to the ones that survive.......

More on TJ

Russ - 1-20-2008 at 06:27 AM

Tijuana's new chief knows the cartel's killers are after him
Standing firm
Email Picture
Irfan Khan / Los Angeles Times
Secretary of Public Security Alberto Capella Ibarra, left, at the funeral for three Tijuana police officers who were shot by armed gunmen.
They've already shot up his house and gunned down three cops. He urges citizens to stand with him.
By Richard Marosi, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 20, 2008
TIJUANA -- The bullet holes pockmarking the walls of his home were just three days old when Alberto Capella Ibarra took over the police force of this violence-plagued city.

Twenty gunmen dressed in black had swarmed his yard in the middle of the night, and he'd fought them off, firing an automatic rifle.

Broken remains
Broken remains
click to enlarge

Nighttime assault
Nighttime assault
click to enlarge

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Taking office Dec. 1 as the city's secretary for public security, Capella, a longtime activist, declared war on organized crime and challenged citizens to join him in the battle.

Even he had no idea it would get so bloody.

Seventeen people were killed last week as organized crime struck back. Last Monday night and Tuesday morning, heavily armed men killed three of Capella's senior police officers, shooting one at his home along with his wife and two daughters. Two days later, schoolchildren ran for their lives as police and soldiers battled with drug cartel members in a normally quiet neighborhood. Police found six executed kidnap victims inside the suspects' house. A federal agent and a gunman died in the shootout.

Capella, a chubby, soft-spoken 36-year-old with no police training, is at the center of the storm. He moves around the city in a six-car convoy with 20 bodyguards. He can't even stop at a taco stand without scaring off customers who fear gunmen will drive up and blast away.

Originally a corporate lawyer, Capella gained prominence as an outspoken advocate for crime victims. He has long assumed that killers would one day come for him.

Still, in his role as the head of both the police and fire departments, he keeps the pressure on organized crime and corrupt cops while reassuring citizens during what he calls some of the saddest days ever seen in the city.

On Thursday he told mourners at an honor guard ceremony for the three slain officers that Tijuana's criminals had crossed a historic threshold by adding children to their target lists. "If they've ever had a traditional code, they've broken it," Capella said. "But we are ready to give our last breath to honor our responsibility to society."

After the gunfight at his home in November, Mexican newspapers published cartoon images of Capella as a superhero and dubbed him the Tijuana Rambo.

He could have sat back, enjoying the adulation.

But in his first public appearance after the shooting, Capella rejected it, telling hundreds in a hotel ballroom that society was at fault for meekly tolerating the growth of drug cartels in Tijuana.

He scolded citizens for not holding political leaders accountable and for cynicism. "It's as if criminals have corrupted us all," said Capella, his voice cracking. "Nobody lifts a finger."

"He's been the only public figure who has taken the problem so seriously, that we should take these crimes as a grave insult that speaks badly of us as a state and society in Tijuana," said professor Guillermo Alonso Meneses at El Colegio de la Frontera Norte.

Expectations for police chiefs are low here. At least two of Capella's predecessors have been killed and others indicted.

Meneses likened Capella to Jimmy Stewart's character in the classic western "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," a lawyer determined against all odds to inspire citizens and impose order in a lawless town.

What Capella needs, Meneses joked, is a partner like John Wayne to battle the bad guys.

Capella has 2,300 cops on his force, but finding trusted gunslingers hasn't been easy. The police are a dispirited, dysfunctional bunch. Many take bribes, deal drugs and carry out kidnappings. Capella said his first day at headquarters was like entering Ali Baba's cavern. Still, he needs the police.

Mayor Jorge Ramos appointed him to the post after promising to reduce crime in one of Mexico's most violent cities.

To do so, Capella has to take on a deeply entrenched world of drug kingpins and rival armies who roam around the city in convoys of SUVs with tinted windows. Weakened by arrests and killings, the networks are more desperate and violent than ever.

Capella's crackdown started downtown. He created a "safety zone" around Avenida Revolucion, the heart of the tourist district, flooding the area with cops whose sweeps yielded more than 100 arrests.

Last week began with the biggest victory to date. Police swarmed a group of armed men trying to hijack an armored vehicle as it made the round of downtown banks. Police pursued the assailants across the city, trading gunfire in a wild chase that ended with the death of one suspect and the arrests of four others.

The slayings of the three police officers just hours later clearly were revenge. Two of them had taken part in the chase. The neighborhood gun battle Thursday occurred as people were gathered for the officers' memorial.

The violence last week has brought fear but also a rare display of civic unity.

Dozens of religious, business and political leaders took out an unprecedented full-page ad in a leading newspaper, exhibiting the kind of social responsibility that Capella had asked of citizens.

"Tijuana society repudiates these recent cowardly acts by organized crime," the civic leaders wrote in the ad.

"We will continue supporting governmental authorities in their fight against crime . . . because it's the only way our children can one day enjoy a life of peace and liberty."

Capella used to lead a comfortable, quiet sort of life. He ran a thriving law practice high in Tijuana's tallest office tower and vacationed regularly in the U.S. and Europe with his wife and three children.

Then four years ago, a terrible crime wave hit the city.

Violence spread outside the worlds of drug traffickers and corrupt cops. Businessmen, doctors and other professionals were being snatched off streets in broad daylight by well-organized kidnapping rings.

Capella agreed to become president of the Baja California citizens' advisory on public security. He quickly turned the state post into a bully pulpit, making headlines with blunt attacks on organized crime and the politicians and police who were too corrupt or inept to do anything about it.

As his public profile grew, so did the threats. He sent his wife and children to live elsewhere.

That's why he was home alone Nov. 27 when barking dogs awoke him at 2 a.m.

He looked out his window, saw the gunmen and figured they would probably abduct him, then cut him into pieces. Silencing a leading voice in such a gruesome way, he thought, would send a demoralizing message to the citizenry.

Capella decided to fight, firing through different windows to make it appear he had backup. The return fire deafened and disoriented him, he said, and time seemed to slow during the 15 minutes in which bullets whizzed past his head.

He could hear the gunmen trying to break in through the front door, but he had fortified it as he always did by sliding a couch in front of it. He kept running and firing, sending bullets into doors and walls in his terror.

Finally, the gunmen retreated. Capella walked around his property, now littered with more than 200 shell casings. Bullets had cracked mirrors, punctured furniture and shredded every dress shirt in his closet, he said. The book on his nightstand -- "Transnational Crime and Public Security" -- was riddled with bullet holes.

The attack had occurred just after Capella had surfaced as a candidate for the police job. It could have been a preemptive strike by corrupt police or crime bosses warning him against taking the job.

Death threats continue. Menacing voices over police radio frequencies promise harm to him and his family.

Last Saturday, gunfire again erupted outside his house. Criminals have called in bomb scares at police headquarters, where Capella has his office.

Capella said he has no regrets. When he emerged from the gunfight alive, he said, he felt reborn. God gave him another chance and he plans to make the most of it.

"I think it would be stupid and cowardly to say 'Adios. May God bless you. Nothing can be done.' " Capella said. "I would be left living with a very tragic and lamentable weight on my conscience."

kimberlee - 1-20-2008 at 07:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
"Calderon is only doing what the US government wants him to do. He really wants that 1,4 Billion dollars."..................

Calderon should put a large part of that 1.4 billion into ammunition and stage more of the ops like the one in TJ.......

The more of these ratones, dopers, cartels and gangs that are shot up the better.........It sends a strong message to the ones that survive.......


Well I definately agree that it would be in all our best interest if officials or whoever could off the bad guys (and gals), but the reality is that innocents are caught in the crossfire.

On TV Azteca I watched in tears as those kindergardners were being evacuated from their school during the shootings. some had their hands on their heads as though they were being arrested. Others had their hands over their ears for the noise. Many were crying. I am a mother and this is very difficult to see since I know this is only the beginning. plan méxico que lastima

Woooosh - 1-20-2008 at 07:37 PM

Quote from Union Tribune Today:
Gen. Sergio Apnote- "The corruption among the state's police forces runs so deep that it is impeding our work." joint head of military operations in Baja Californis.

nuf said

Dannyrose - 1-20-2008 at 07:53 PM

Not sure what my point is but read the following....A couple of snapshots of daily life in Vegas

Weekend Las Vegas Shooting Leaves 3 Dead

Updated: May 29, 2006 03:41 PM

A neighborhood gathering to enjoy the Memorial Day weekend turned deadly when three people were shot to death and four others were wounded.

It happened near D Street and Lake Mead. Metro police are looking for at least five suspects. They say solving this crime will be difficult because there are numerous descriptions of the suspects.

"We were just all having a good old time and then all of the sudden out of the blue everything started going wrong," said Donnetta Coleman who was a deejay at the block party.

She was enjoying the weekend when she says she heard the gunshots ring out. "I was running real fast. I felt like a track star. I was gone," she said.

Another witness who asked not to be identified describes what she saw. "When the shooting was all done, I actually saw two people laying in the street. One was shot in the head and the other was laying on his stomach."

Witnesses say about 200 people were attending the seventh annual Berkley Square Memorial Day weekend party when the gunfire broke out. Three people were killed and four more were sent to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. Metro police are saying the incident is gang related.

"It is frustrating to have other people come into the community and shoot and kill innocent people because that's not what this community is all about. The community is about bonding and communicating with each other," said one witness.

Police are asking anyone who knows anything about the shooting or the suspects to call Metro Homicide at 229-3521 or Crime Stoppers at 385-5555.


The following is from the U.K. Telegraph, Nice press for Vegas. It was in our paper as well of course. And it did happen just like the papers said.

Las Vegas school bus shooting injures six

Last Updated: 2:23am GMT 13/12/2007

Police in Las Vegas say six children were shot and wounded after getting off a school bus, but none of the injuries was life-threatening.

Initial reports yesterday said the six high school students had just stepped off a school bus when at least two suspects opened fire on them from a car that had been parked across the street.

The first person to call police said that witnesses heard four to five gunshots and saw two children on the ground, according to Las Vegas Police spokesman Ramon Denby.
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Seconds later, Denby said, police received another call from a person who heard about 10 gunshots and saw four kids fall.

"A total of six children, all of them high school students, have been shot," Denby said. "All of the injuries are non-life-threatening and all of the victims have been transported to the trauma centre and are seeing doctors there."

A spokeswoman for University Medical Centre in Las Vegas, where the victims had been transported, declined to comment on their conditions.

The incident followed two other highly publicized gun tragedies in recent days - a pair of weekend shootings at a Christian Missionary training centre and a church in Colorado in which a 24-year-old man killed four people and then himself, and a shopping mall rampage in Omaha, Nebraska, in which a 19-year-old killed eight people and then himself with an assault rifle last week.

Denby said police had detained five or six people for questioning but had not arrested any suspects and could not yet provide a description of the two assailants, other than to say that they were male.

He said gang investigators were on the scene but a motive had not yet been established for the shooting, which occurred at 1:55 pm local time.

JESSE - 1-20-2008 at 09:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Jorge
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

Sorry to say it but the elite of the Mexican military are inept. Their ineptness cost lives.
Why don't they hire professionals with professional intel and act accordingly. They didn't have to take on this this hot-house in the middle of school hours, hostages or not. They should have hit it earlier.

Easy for me to say? Yeah...it is because it's easy to see.

What's your opinion?


I have no military experience. I have the experience of having lived for 13 years in Valle de Guadalupe during the 80s and early 90s. One would have to blind to not know what is really going on in Mexico. This problem, la problema, is merely very low level, poorly recruited, poorly trained, rogue, drugged out minions acting out of line with long established business practices.

I used to see players betting tens of thousands on gallos, trailering in horses for match races, betting tens of thousands on their horse. One week, a few players might be gone, did you read about fulano? They have been killing each other for a long, long time in TJ.

What is going on now is the powers that be and have always been, moving in to bring the agreed upon business model back into practice. The military has always allowed concessioners to work. These concessioners start at the federal level and trickle down. Sound familiar? There has always been a keep yourselves in line, kill each other fine, but keep it under the concession agreement, or we will keep you in line. Well, the conceessioners have been stepping over the line for some time now and the time to redraw the lines is here.

There is plenty of pie to divide up for the military, feds, locals y politicos. Mexico does not need the drugged out low life minions kidnapping, terrorizing tourists and local business persons and generally drawing attention to la problema. They are acting to put things back to normal and collateral damage is the cost of this and all wars.

Normal of course, is a steady, orderly supply of product to the demand. The gringos want product, they will supply it. They just want to normalize these established relationships and are taking measures to do so now.

Results will be seen, the elite units are not inept and business must and will return to normal. A friend of mine who lives in Rosarito in a gated community says she hasn't felt this safe in a long time. I believe her.

[Edited on 1-20-2008 by Don Jorge]


I agree with you 100%.

The Gull - 1-21-2008 at 08:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dannyrose
Not sure what my point is but read the following....A couple of snapshots of daily life in Vegas

Weekend Las Vegas Shooting Leaves 3 Dead

Updated: May 29, 2006 03:41 PM

A neighborhood gathering to enjoy the Memorial Day weekend turned deadly when three people were shot to death and four others were wounded.

It happened near D Street and Lake Mead. Metro police are looking for at least five suspects. They say solving this crime will be difficult because there are numerous descriptions of the suspects.

"We were just all having a good old time and then all of the sudden out of the blue everything started going wrong," said Donnetta Coleman who was a deejay at the block party.

She was enjoying the weekend when she says she heard the gunshots ring out. "I was running real fast. I felt like a track star. I was gone," she said.

Another witness who asked not to be identified describes what she saw. "When the shooting was all done, I actually saw two people laying in the street. One was shot in the head and the other was laying on his stomach."

Witnesses say about 200 people were attending the seventh annual Berkley Square Memorial Day weekend party when the gunfire broke out. Three people were killed and four more were sent to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. Metro police are saying the incident is gang related.

"It is frustrating to have other people come into the community and shoot and kill innocent people because that's not what this community is all about. The community is about bonding and communicating with each other," said one witness.

Police are asking anyone who knows anything about the shooting or the suspects to call Metro Homicide at 229-3521 or Crime Stoppers at 385-5555.


The following is from the U.K. Telegraph, Nice press for Vegas. It was in our paper as well of course. And it did happen just like the papers said.

Las Vegas school bus shooting injures six

Last Updated: 2:23am GMT 13/12/2007

Police in Las Vegas say six children were shot and wounded after getting off a school bus, but none of the injuries was life-threatening.

Initial reports yesterday said the six high school students had just stepped off a school bus when at least two suspects opened fire on them from a car that had been parked across the street.

The first person to call police said that witnesses heard four to five gunshots and saw two children on the ground, according to Las Vegas Police spokesman Ramon Denby.
advertisement

Seconds later, Denby said, police received another call from a person who heard about 10 gunshots and saw four kids fall.

"A total of six children, all of them high school students, have been shot," Denby said. "All of the injuries are non-life-threatening and all of the victims have been transported to the trauma centre and are seeing doctors there."

A spokeswoman for University Medical Centre in Las Vegas, where the victims had been transported, declined to comment on their conditions.

The incident followed two other highly publicized gun tragedies in recent days - a pair of weekend shootings at a Christian Missionary training centre and a church in Colorado in which a 24-year-old man killed four people and then himself, and a shopping mall rampage in Omaha, Nebraska, in which a 19-year-old killed eight people and then himself with an assault rifle last week.

Denby said police had detained five or six people for questioning but had not arrested any suspects and could not yet provide a description of the two assailants, other than to say that they were male.

He said gang investigators were on the scene but a motive had not yet been established for the shooting, which occurred at 1:55 pm local time.


Add Vegas to the visit boycott list, right long with Arizona and Irvine.

The Gull - 1-21-2008 at 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by grover
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Jorge...The military has always allowed concessioners to work...
A whole lot of people will not concede that. Nor that demand is where it starts.


Proving again that a whole lot of people are either in denial or are ignorant. Nothing new.