BajaNomad

Does anyone know the story of the graves

bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:18 PM

at the old pier in Guerrero Negro.

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bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:19 PM

This is Jesus Castro
They all died December 10, 2005

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bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:20 PM

This is Gladys Lopez

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bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:21 PM

This is Pedro Angolo(I think that is what it says)

[Edited on 4-21-2008 by bajajudy]

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bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:23 PM

For perspective this is what you see looking north

[Edited on 4-21-2008 by bajajudy]

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bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 03:25 PM

And this is why we go...sunset

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Roberto - 4-21-2008 at 04:00 PM

I have a question about this. A simple, respectful question that I sincerely hope will not offend anyone, as that is NOT the intent.

Is it ok to photograph ANYTHING? Personally, the photos of graves are disturbing to me -- the more recent the graves the most disturbing they are. I see it as an act of intrusion on privacy, and a lack of respect for the deceased and the families of the deceased. Let's let them rest in peace.

Am I the only one to feel this way? Would photos of your family graces on a public internet site, to be viewed and discussed by all and any, disturb you? It would me.

[Edited on 4-21-2008 by Roberto]

Barry A. - 4-21-2008 at 04:20 PM

Since nobody in my family was ever "buried" (we are all cremated with ashes spread to the wind, as far as I know) I cannot personally relate, but no it would not offend me to have pics taken of my grave and sold, or whatever.

I wish I knew the answer to the question of the story behind the graves, but I don't. To me graves are interesting, but certainly not sacred, and I am a Christian.

Barry

vgabndo - 4-21-2008 at 04:34 PM

Roberto:

I will respectfully disagree. The dead are not dishonored by curiosity about their lives. Should anyone have wished that the graves not be known or seen, that could have easily have been done, but wasn't.

When I put myself in the position of a surviving loved one I think about how I would feel if my mother's name was among these who passed on the same day. I can't imagine myself being offended that someone would be curious about what unusual thing took them all together. (If that was the case) I can imagine myself saying: "Thanks for asking, it was a sad accident at sea. She was a sweet generous lady. Thank you for caring about her life. She'd have liked that."

May they all, including my Mom in Oklahoma, D. E. P.

[Edited on 4-21-2008 by vgabndo]

Ken Bondy - 4-21-2008 at 04:47 PM

I think some of the Baja cemeteries are beautiful, like this one in San Ignacio:



IMHO images like this, and those of the highway shrines, honor the dead, rather than the opposite.

++Ken++

Natalie Ann - 4-21-2008 at 05:07 PM

I have always enjoyed visiting cemeteries, don't feel I'm being disrespectful. I find them to be spiritual places where I wonder about the lives of those whose names I find there.

I remember a particularly beautiful grave site which had mother, father, 3 children all buried side by side. Someone had planted a rose bush over mom's grave - and over the years it had grown to a glorious size and shape. When I was there it's branches spread out over the graves of the entire family and it was covered with blood red roses.

A most touching experience it was. I do not think I was being intrusive to enjoy it... and I sincerely wish I'd had a camera at the time. If that was my mom, I'd want the world to see her spot of final rest.

Here's a little cemetery in Baja Sur:



Nena

sylens - 4-21-2008 at 05:15 PM

and i think it is especially proper and respectful with mexican graves, given the culture's views of death as an integral part of life.

so no, i don't feel disrespect and i agree with other posters who mention survivors of those buried there would likely be pleased, not offended, with the caring interest expressed.

jmho.

still, i also think the question raised was raised respectfully and deserves the careful attention it is getting.

Roberto - 4-21-2008 at 05:22 PM

Thanks for the input.

I'm Italian, born and raised until the age of 28, when I moved to the U.S. Our culture is very similar to the Mexican one, in many ways, including the relationship with the dead. Dia de los Muertos is Giorno dei Morti in Italy, and visiting cemeteries is a common activity. We go, wash the grave, leave flowers and talk to our loved ones. A visit with those who are no longer with us, but who will never leave. All good.

What makes me feel uncomfortable is the Internet aspect of this. A whole new level of public. But, I could be wrong, and thanks for letting me know your perspectives.

[Edited on 4-22-2008 by Roberto]

bajajudy - 4-21-2008 at 05:58 PM

Roberto
Thanks for your input and it has made me think, in particular, about the graves in my photos. It was indeed my morbid curiosity that led me to take the photos. It also seemed that the people who knew these people had taken the time to memorialize them in a particular place, probably because it was either important to the deceased or because they had died on the water and had left from this spot.
Perhaps it would have been more respectful to not identify them, but just to ask a general question about the incident.

Either way.....this is a killer place for sunsets!

edit:jeez I wish I had learned to type

[Edited on 4-22-2008 by bajajudy]

SiReNiTa - 4-21-2008 at 06:18 PM

OMG...i can not believe of all the years i have been in guerrero negro i have never seen those graves!!
and roberto, thank's so much for that preocupation, even thought it is not a problem to take pictures of the graves here in Mexico, it depends very much on you intent, as i am sure the intent of this was in no way disrespectfull, but sometimes people take pictures and make jokes and such about them...that becomes an insult, and as for the graves...i'm interested...i'm going to do some research and i'll get back to ya!!

Eli - 4-21-2008 at 06:49 PM

Interesting question Roberto, never considered that one would be offended if I took pictures of their families graves.

I have done a few visits to the graveyards of Oaxaca during Day of the Dead. When there was family there I always asked permission, no one minded if I took pictures of their beautifully decorated graves, but a few declined to be included in the photos and stepped aside when I took the shots.

Natalie Ann - 4-21-2008 at 07:39 PM

I like your pictures and your question, Judy. I'm glad you included the names, for as I read them and looked at the grave sites it personalized what must have been some little tragedy in that same spot. It will be neat if Sirena is able to help us find out something more about what took place.

Nena

encanto - 4-21-2008 at 08:13 PM

In San Diego cemetaries where I received permission from the directors to photograph flora, I've had to give assurance that I will not photograph individual gravestones so as to make them recognizable in the picture. There apparently are privacy issues in the American industry that are legal and ethical beyond (and/or derived from?) the cultural considerations.

Roberto raises a good question although I personally enjoy documenting graves in photos of my travels wherever I go. There are places in Baja where I fear there is great potential for many lonesome, forgotten graves to be disturbed or lost due to other land uses.

shari - 4-21-2008 at 08:24 PM

Very thought provoking topic....I never appreciated graves until I moved to mexico and as mentioned...they are part of life and often visited here. As far as internet goes, I am happy we can reach so many people by our posts as long as they honourable and respectful. I have decided to post this lovely gravesiste photo as it a dear dear amigo and respected...recently departed member of our community of San Roque. This my friends is where Chimbo rests..where he wanted to be and I enjoy sitting with him there at peace.

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shari - 4-21-2008 at 08:26 PM

My first time camping in San Roque I pulled in in the dark and in the morning I was camped beside the graveyard. This is an interesting place as it has been washed away by hurricaine swells a few times and is "put back" about where the tombs are. This is where I would like to rest too....man, what a view!

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Sharksbaja - 4-21-2008 at 11:04 PM

I understand your concern there Roberto. I've always felt celebrating the dead was ok in Mexico and never grave it much thought. Hmmmm.........

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rts551 - 4-22-2008 at 08:11 AM

These six grave sites are all by themselves North of La Bocana. They appear to be of young children from the early sixties. Maybe when someone lived close by.








Skipjack Joe - 4-22-2008 at 10:09 AM

I agree with you Roberto on this issue.

I often see religious themes used as art for decorative purposes and I don't feel it's right. I've even seen it on nomads. I don't really have a good reason for feeling that way except that I was brought up that way and those early lessons remain. Madonnas are for worshipping, not for visual pleasure. This isn't exactly like the respect for gravestones but close enough.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. My father in law once told me of his travels in the holy land. He apparently was walking around a church shooting pictures of objects on the walls when the priest came up to him and said, "what are you doing? This is a place of worship. These are venerated objects". Sometimes we forget that.

Remember when Madonna (the singer) started to wear crosses for decorative purposes? The Catholics were outraged. She said that she had attended a parochial school and liked the way they looked hanging from the sides of those nuns and was going to incorporate that look for her own artistic expression. I just don't think Madonna was inspired by catholicism very much.

bajalera - 4-22-2008 at 10:23 AM

Roberto, you really surprised me. Somehow, the sensitivity about grave photos doesn't seem in accord with your usual posts.


[Edited on 4-22-2008 by bajalera]

[Edited on 4-22-2008 by bajalera]

Roberto - 4-22-2008 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Roberto, you really surprised me. Somehow, the sensitivity about grave photos doesn't seem in accord with your usual posts.

I've been working on getting in touch with my female side. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

In all seriousness, that goes to show that this is an internet site and no more -- we don't really know the first thing about each other, regardless of how long we've seen each other's posts.


[Edited on 4-22-2008 by Roberto]

Barry A. - 4-22-2008 at 11:10 AM

--------------ahhhhhhhhhhh, we know that at least 95% of us are actually interested in Baja California, and that is the most important aspect of this board.

Viva Baja

Barry

Roberto - 4-22-2008 at 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Madonnas are for worshipping, not for visual pleasure. This isn't exactly like the respect for gravestones but close enough.


And expresses perfectly how I feel on this matter. The relationship I have with my dead is mine, private and not to be shared except with those I choose to share it with -- very close friends and family in other words.

Anyhow, that's how I feel, and that's because of where and how I grew up and I doubt that words can affect that.

[Edited on 4-22-2008 by Roberto]

Gadget - 4-22-2008 at 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Quote:

Roberto, you really surprised me. Somehow, the sensitivity about grave photos doesn't seem in accord with your usual posts.

I've been working on getting in touch with my female side. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

In all seriousness, that goes to show that this is an internet site and no more -- we don't really know the first thing about each other, regardless of how long we've seen each other's posts.


[Edited on 4-22-2008 by Roberto]


And that my friend, is why we should make every effort to get together with each other when opportunity presents itself.

I think there are some, not many, on any internet site who are much like a motorist who regularly displays road rage. When taken out of his or her 4000lb vehicle they don't have a leg to stand on.

But then I guess, that type of attitude is a sort of antisocial behavior and they wouldn't gather in a group anyhow.

Sorry for the hijack, it was a great question and response. I have often wondered about this.

longlegsinlapaz - 4-22-2008 at 11:56 AM

Hmmmmmm...Is there any way of knowing if the focus of Judy's pics are in fact actual grave-sites or simply shrines?

Roberto, in your mind is there any difference in how you view a shrine versus an actual burial-site?

I haven't a clue how the Catholic Church would view this; in a predominantly Catholic country; but my personal belief is that there's no disrespect intended not reflected in Judy's post. I believe it's natural curiosity on the part of the living to wonder about the lives & circumstances of other who were here before us. It's human nature to be curious, I think even more so when the lifespan was cut short, or when there is a visual reminder at an unusual location, as reflected in Judy's pics.

I've never thought about this distinction before, but IMHO, both shrines & graves in cemeteries in Mexico are highly ornamental & adorned with brightly colored flowers & other symbols to honor the dead. Their very nature is intended to draw attention. Is there any difference in taking a picture in your minds' eye or taking one with a camera to share with people who might otherwise never view the site firsthand?

Is there a difference in viewing this type of pic in, say...National Geographics or here in the pics Judy & others have posted? What about viewing pics of tombs of the Pharaohs?

bajajudy - 4-22-2008 at 12:39 PM

just for the record
I probably should have asked if anyone knows the history of these shrines because in retrospect, I doubt if the people are buried there.
Maybe Serenita will be able to tell us the story of their demise.

Skipjack Joe - 4-22-2008 at 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Roberto

I'm Italian, born and raised until the age of 28, when I moved to the U.S.


Heard Mario Lanza at Starbuck's yesterday.

Brought a smile to my face .... and old memories.

bajajudy - 4-22-2008 at 01:00 PM

Grover
All those graves is one of the most humbling sights I have ever seen. Rows after rows of white grave stones of our fallen heros.
Thanks for the post

bajajudy - 4-22-2008 at 01:14 PM

well put it back
its my thread:P

tripledigitken - 4-22-2008 at 01:24 PM

And proud you should be, Grover.

Thanks for putting it back up.


Ken

David K - 4-22-2008 at 06:00 PM

He was a great man Grover... thank you for sharing him with us here!

SiReNiTa - 4-23-2008 at 05:00 PM

still working...it's strange but i have asked around with a few people and no one knows anything...there is a small children cemetary which is really really haunted...but that's not right at the light house...it's on the road there and off to the side a bit...i know the cihldren died of some sort of disease a long time ago...there are about 20 graves still standing as nasty cults and drunk kids go and wreck the little graves...that may explain why the place is haunted...but my uncle told me there were about 50 little kids that died...maybe it's something like that??
i'll keep asking though!!

Pescador - 4-23-2008 at 06:58 PM

We stop at the graveyard in San Jose De Magdelena quite often as it is one of the most colorful cemetaries I have encountered in Baja. One time we stopped close to Dia De Los Muertos and asked a family who were there if it was acceptable to take photos of the burial site and they were very happy to have me do that and asked if I could give a copy to one of their relatives in San Lucas. I had almost the same experience in La Ventana.

Mango - 4-23-2008 at 09:27 PM

Roberto, I see your point to a degree; however, I see no disrespect in the mere act of honestly asking about, viewing, or posting a picture of a grave or grave site to gain information about the people buried. It is really all about intent.

People throughout the world place images of Jesus on a cross to honor him. I don't find that insulting; but, feel it is far more offensive to show someone actually dieing vs. a humble gravestone.

Years ago, I was backpacking through the mountains of California and I bedded down under a large Oak in the failing light of dusk. When I awoke the next morning I realized I had camped within 30 feet of a lone grave under the same large oak. It was a beautiful spot at the edge of a clearing full of flowers that had been planted around the grave site. I spent about a half hour clearing fallen branches, watering some of the flowers, pulling a few weeds, and replacing a few stones around the border of the grave site. I wasn't part of the family, I wasn't invited; but, I showed respect and reverence to a fellow human being. It was one of the most beautiful grave sites I've ever seen.


Here is another great graveyard from mainland Mexico. I helped the caretaker push start his pickup truck right before I took this photo. These peoples relatives wanted them to be remembered by the living.



BTW - Thanks Grover for sharing.

Also BTW - BajaJudy - It looks to me like those may be shrines and not actual gravesites. Perhaps the men were lost at sea?

SiReNiTa - 4-30-2008 at 06:41 PM

first of all let me say WOW...that is one of the most beautiful churches i have ever seen!!!!
second...the moment you have all been waiting for!
i found the story to the graves at the light house here in GN...
so...they were 4 or 5 kids from vizcaino...there was a party that night in vizcaino and well between bottles they decided to drive to GN to see what was going on here...they got here fine, went and got more beer and apparently decided to drive out to the light house to drink and party out there...on the way out... just before getting to the light house...those of you who have been out there know how the road turns really abruptly just above a hill...well they were going a little to fast and drove straight of the hill and down in to that sort of...huge ditch i guess...and well...the car exploded and all but one of them died...the one who survived is parylized and she lost her big brother in the crash...she only survived because she did not have her seat belt on and got thrown out of the car and she dragged her self just far enough so she could hide from the explosion...she lives in vizcaino and i have a friend who knows her and says she lives in her own little world...she used to be really funny and light hearted but after the crash she just sits at home looking at pictures...sad eh...

Sharksbaja - 4-30-2008 at 07:06 PM

Damn sad. Sorry to actually hear the whole story but thanks just the same
Yes Roberto has a point about some things being sacred. It's one of those hard to call subjects as we all have our spiritual opinions.

For the sake and respect of the dead I'm rethinking my thoughts. Can I do that?

[Edited on 5-1-2008 by Sharksbaja]