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Spanish level

DENNIS - 5-1-2008 at 07:35 PM

That's me, Intermedio uno. That's prior to una caja de Peaceful.

Paula - 5-1-2008 at 08:55 PM

Page 1-- 10 out of te, easy!
Page 2-- 5 out of 10-- what's up with this??? My Spanish is better than that.
Page 3-- 6out of 10
Page 4-- 6 out of 10
Page 5-- 6 out of 10

I learned a lot going back and re-doing pages to get to the next one (did I miss a way to continue the test after not passing a page?:?

I gave myself an intermediate 1, event though I think I'm an intermediate 1.6. Well, really I see myself as intermediate 2.

And now I'm having another glass of wine-- that test was way too much reality for me!

Ugh

The Gull - 5-2-2008 at 06:48 AM

Page 1 - 10 for 10
Page 2 - 5 for 10
Page 3 - didn't open, knew when to quit.

Oso - 5-2-2008 at 07:41 AM

P-nches gachupines no saben hablar bien. :mad:

fulano - 5-2-2008 at 09:25 AM

chinga
é
ha chingado
emos
chingate

chingón
chingazos
chingonería

Felicidades. Usted se encuentra en el nivel avanzado ... de Baja California.
:lol:

durrelllrobert - 5-2-2008 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fulano
chinga
é
ha chingado
emos
chingate

chingón
chingazos
chingonería

Felicidades. Usted se encuentra en el nivel avanzado ... de Baja California.
:lol:

welcome to the board. which tense are you? :lol:

ELINVESTIG8R - 5-2-2008 at 10:24 AM

Según la prueba no sé español muy bien. En otras palabras "La chingué." ¿Que gacho, no? Casi no alcance el nivel elemental. Creo que voy a llorar. :lol:

According to the test I do not know Spanish very well. In other words “I screwed up.” How sad, no? I almost did not make it to the Basic level. I think I am going to cry. :lol:

[Edited on 5-2-2008 by ELINVESTI8]

Roberto - 5-2-2008 at 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
p-nches gachupines no saben hablar bien. :mad:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gachup%C3%ADn

Didn't know about the nahuatl root.

Iflyfish - 5-2-2008 at 04:09 PM

It is interesting to me that after traveling in Mexico for over forty years that I obtained the following results from this test:

¡Lo sentimos! No has conseguido superar el nivel Inicial.
Has tenido 4 respuestas correctas de 10, y necesitabas al menos 8.

What is interesting to me about this exercise is that I comprehended what I was reading. My Spanish has been acquired by interacting with people, not reading.

It is important when looking at this issue to understand some things.

Language production comes after language acquisition. First we listen and understand and then we produce. There is a continuum and this type of test does not get at the issue of comprehension. I understood what I read; I did not have the tenses or sexes necessary to produce the correct response. Yet, I fully understood what I was reading.

Secondly there is the issue of proficiency or fluency. I understood what was being said, but did I understand it at the level of a college educated native speaker? No. Did I understand it at the level of a retarded person? Probably. We all differ in our level of understanding of nuance and imbedded cultural meaning. This sort of test measures more about knowledge of proper grammar. This is not a simple vocabulary test.

Does one measure competency by testing grammar? Does one measure competency by measuring ones mastery of the feminine vs. masculine forms?

Wikipedia addresses this issue under the rubric of fluency:
Language fluency is proficiency in a language, most typically foreign language or another learned language. In this sense, "fluency" actually encompasses a number of related but separable skills:
Reading: the ability to easily read and understand texts written in the language;
Writing: the ability to formulate written texts in the language;
Comprehension: the ability to follow and understand speech in the language;
Speaking: the ability to speak in the language and be understood by its speakers.
To some extent, these skills can be separately acquired. Generally, the later in life a learner approaches the study of a foreign language, the harder it is to acquire auditory comprehension and fluent speaking skills. Reading and writing a foreign language are skills that can be acquired more easily after the primary language acquisition period of youth is over, however.
A rubric is a scoring tool for subjective assessments. It is a set of criteria and standards linked to learning objectives that is used to assess a student's performance on papers, projects, essays, and other assignments. Rubrics allow for standardised evaluation according to specified criteria, making grading simpler and more transparent.
The rubric is an attempt to delineate consistent assessment criteria. It allows teachers and students alike to assess criteria which are complex and subjective and also provide ground for self-evaluation, reflection and peer review. It is aimed at accurate and fair assessment, fostering understanding and indicating the way to proceed with subsequent learning/teaching. This integration of performance and feedback is called "ongoing assessment."
Increasingly, instructors who rely on rubrics to evaluate student performance tend to share the rubric with students at the time the assignment is made. In addition to helping students understand how the assignment relates to course content, a shared-rubric can increase student authority in classroom, through transparency
The following common features of rubrics can be distinguished, according to Bernie Dodge and Nancy Pickett: focus on measuring a stated objective (performance, behavior, or quality) use a range to rate performance
contain specific performance characteristics arranged in levels indicating the degree to which a standard has been met.

Iflyfishwhennotaskingthewrongquestionwhichendswiththewrongconclusion

fdt - 5-2-2008 at 04:54 PM

I am an Intermedio II.
:lol:

Level

tehag - 5-2-2008 at 05:14 PM

Since the test site is trying to sell us a course in Spanish, I hardly think it would be in their best interest to have us come away thinking we are fluent. ¿No?

Paula - 5-2-2008 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
I am an Intermedio II.
:lol:

¡Ay!
Por eso tengo que degradarme al nivel de elemental. Y de veras, aprendí la lengua hace unos años, y mas de leer y escribir. Entonces hablo más que entiendo, y como puedes imaginar sufro mucho yo de éste :lol:

David K - 5-2-2008 at 05:38 PM

Interesting... I think I am better at conversation than written Spanish... at least I get the messsage across... most of the time! LOL

I got this for the first test: ¡Enhorabuena! Has superado el nivel Inicial.
Tienes 8 respuestas correctas de 10 posibles.

The second test was way down, 3 of 10... Like Gull, I didn't go on!

fdt - 5-2-2008 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
at least I get the messsage across... most of the time! LOL

That's because you pay in dollars

Oso - 5-2-2008 at 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
That's me, Intermedio uno. That's prior to una caja de Peaceful.

Ah, now if we want to be scientific about it, you should take it again después de esa caja de Peaceful and report the results.

I've noted that some folks do better at language acquisition with a moderately elevated blood alcohol level. Breaks down barriers... :biggrin:

--Larry

I confess I answered the poll before I scrolled down and saw there was a test. Based on the test, you need to reduce the results by one on the avanzado level. I answered as truthfully as I understood at the moment based on 51 years of carrying on reasonably fluent conversartions with Mexicans, including marriage to one. But, as you say. I learned informally in Chilangolandia, and have had little or no formal education regarding rules of grammar etc. as established in Europe.

I carry on bidiness day to day here on the border and have encountered few problems in communication. But as far as as a vacation in Spain, I think I might as well go to Kazhakstahn or wherever.

Paula - 5-2-2008 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Today I cheated my way past the second screen and immediately scored 8 out of 10 on the third, reaching Intermedio I. My self-assessment would be elemental, based on a year of carrying on fractured but marginally successful conversations with Mexicans, during which we all use our hands a lot (so far, not violently).

Kate

This is what I did, because I just had to know how the whole test was. So level one was the only one I passed, but I answered over half of the questions all the way to advanced correctly. I think if I were placed in a language class as a level one, I might have learned to snore fluently in Spanish! :biggrin:

Von - 5-2-2008 at 09:04 PM

Que pasao aqui chingaO! COMO CHINGAos! Enter esto? NO entiendao

nada en esta pagina
:

Whats going on whats the pole about man??????

Von - 5-2-2008 at 09:21 PM

That is so funny man!!!!!!!! :lol:

love your video......

bajalera - 5-2-2008 at 09:36 PM

That was fun. I missed one on the first, 5 out of 10 on the second and dropped out. That was better than expected, I can't conjugate verbs worth a damn.

.

bajaboolie - 5-2-2008 at 10:20 PM

The video is hilarious...I've seen it before. Maybe a link from this website? Anyway, that test was tough on the ego. I'll have to take it again tomorrow after a night's sleep. It does reinforce, though, that I want to take Spanish classes again.

Diver - 5-2-2008 at 10:22 PM

That video is what my dreams sound like!
Sometimes I have no idea what I'm saying but the words sound good. :biggrin:

Oso - 5-3-2008 at 07:48 AM

Remember South Pacific when the planter asked Nellie Forbush if she spoke French? Her answer was that she could conjugate some verbs. I think it is entirely possible that someone with pure "book larnin" could pass this test and yet be unable to carry on a casual conversation with the average Mexican.

Iflyfish - 5-3-2008 at 09:16 AM

Grover:

You crack me up my man!

Once tried to find our way to the Palenque in a taxi. Didn't have the right polabras, so ended up scoring with " Donde es la Pollo Olympiad?" It worked.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 5-3-2008 at 09:18 AM

None of us should feel bad about our Spanish. Trying is the main thing. Spanish is the second language for many Mexicans anyway and our efforts are appreciated greatly.

Iflyfish

subjunctive

sylens - 5-3-2008 at 10:38 AM

in english,subjunctive is still used in the following form:

if i were _____ (not i was)

trouble is, most people no longer even use it there. :?:

born in mexico and educated my first two years there (pre primaria y primer año) i am fairly fluent and guessed correctly i'd be intermediate II. when i got to avanzado i only got 5. btw i took a few classes as undergrad in spanish also. this is one tough test. but i think it is an excellent test. no tricks, as lencho says, just extremely demanding and well constructed imho. :bounce:

thanks for the challenge, lencho.

also, it is funny how you worked to make it anonymous and we've all come out. :lol:

Roberto - 5-3-2008 at 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
I am an Intermedio II.
:lol:

That is indicative of the objective value of these tests. :lol:

My maid, native of BCS, intelligent and street smart lady who communicates in Spanish more fluently than I ever will, wouldn't pass the most basic level.

--Larry

So, what we're saying is the test is useless -- at least as far as gauging Spanish spoken in Mexico. I KNOW for a fact that Fernando and Oso are fluent. :lol:

Now I don't feel so bad getting an Intermedio I.

Roberto - 5-3-2008 at 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Never been, but I'd find it entertaining. A whole country full of lispers...

Not true of course, but funny nonetheless.

Roberto - 5-3-2008 at 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
at least I get the messsage across... most of the time! LOL

That's because you pay in dollars

Roberto - 5-3-2008 at 08:53 PM

Quote:

I consider that test pretty good for what it is-- a quick written evaluation of formal Spanish knowledge. It's obviously not a definitive indicator of communication competence.

Exactly -- useless.

Come on, when Fernando and Oso get less than a perfect score, what use is the test? Don't forget the Fernando is Mexican, and Oso is a certified Mexican Court translator. Of course, they don't have whatever teaching certification you have. :rolleyes:

And in the context of knowing 100 words ... oh, never mind.

[Edited on 5-4-2008 by Roberto]

Paula - 5-3-2008 at 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
So, what we're saying is the test is useless--

"We?"

I consider that test pretty good for what it is-- a quick written evaluation of formal Spanish knowledge. It's obviously not a definitive indicator of communication competence.

--Larry

Larry, I think the test would be more useful if it were all on one page. It's a good test, but I can see where a person might fail page 2 or 3, and then go on to have more success on 4 or 5. Answering all of the questions would be a better indicator of skill level.

Packoderm - 5-3-2008 at 09:24 PM

8 out of 10. Not good - not bad.

DENNIS - 5-3-2008 at 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
8 out of 10. Not good - not bad.

No.......That's good.

Iflyfish - 5-4-2008 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Of course, they don't have whatever teaching certification you have. :rolleyes:

Huh? Why the aggression? :?:

--Larry [/quote

How would you feel if you were a native speaker and took some test that ranked your language skills low? This is why I posted on the issue of fluency. Everyone learns differently and this tests gets at more formal aspects of language acquisition. For many Mexicans Spanish is a second language. Mexico, in my lifetime, has had 56 distinct language groups, only India has more with 58. I have met many Mexicans who have progressed no further than the 3rd grade, yet they are proficient Spanish speakers. For many Mexicans Spanish is for them a second language and they have had to learn it with out formal education in it as many of us do.

The examples of FDT and Roberto are object lessons to us in that they are native speakers who, if this were a valid test of language proficiency, aught to blow the top off it.

My point is that as interesting and stimulating as this discussion is, there is real risk for someone taking this test to feel bad and defensive about their language skills. None of us should feel bad about our Spanish Language skills. We all survive with the Spanish we have and are in an ongoing process of learning. I happened to skip school the week they were teaching grammar and managed to acquire an advanced degree. Go figure!

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 5-4-2008 at 09:50 AM

Lencho

This has been a very interesting and stimulating thread. I am glad that you started it. The issue of language acquisition and fluency is a complex subject, one that I am learning something about as I read this thread.

I don't think that the test is useless, just designed for a specific purpose.

I believe you started this thread in response to Gull's rather inflamatory statement about how people with low or no Spanish Language skills should stay home. There is much to be learned in this thread as to how limited this perspective really is. We all are in a process of learning Spanish, even if we are not trying and are spending time in Mexico. First comes exposure, passive reception and then production, it is a process.

There is also the distinction to be made between formal language acquisition through academic training, with it's focus on grammar, and the sort of immersion Spanish that many of us have had. One very soon must learn the word for toilet! and before that of course beer!

Thanks for this very interesting and stimulating thread.

Iflyfish

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 10:30 AM

OK, first do I feel bad or defensive about flunking this test? No, not at all. Well, ok maybe I was in a short term petulant snit

But actually it reminded me that I would indeed like to study advanced Spanish grammar and literature. I've started Don Quijote and gotten halfway through maybe a dozen times. There is never a good reason to stop learning new things.

On second thought, maybe I'll move to Suriname and learn Taki Taki. There are only 100 words in the entire language. (English has 250,000.)

Secondly, Roberto is a native Speaker of Italian. His Spanish is passable.

Thirdly, I am a Certified Court Interpreter for the California Superior Court system. There is a difference between an interpretor and a translator. The exam for the certification was entirely oral, not written. When I worked for the courts in Sta. Barbara and San Luis Obispo counties, I seldom or never interpreted for well educated people. Most of the time the defendants, victims and witnesses I worked with were migrant farmworkers and I had to do simultaneous translations. That is I had to follow a few words behind, almost anticipating the next words and understanding the street slang and regional dialects that they used. Occasionally I would be stumped. I remember once asking a defendant why he shot a coworker. "Me hecho una carne", was his answer. I didn't think I should tell the judge and jury "he threw me a piece of meat", so I asked him to explain. "Me dijo cabron." So, I said "he called me an SOB."

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Thirdly, I am a Certified Court Interpreter for the California Superior Court system.

And for the record, puts you next to God as far as I'm concerned. My mind just doesn't work that way. I think it has to do with compound vs coordinate bilingualism.

Quote:

"Me hecho una carne"

Cool. You ever heard that elsewhere? :lol:

--Larry

Nope, that was the one and only time.

Interesting article, now I need to learn to speak Shrink in order to understand it.

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 11:49 AM

Interesting! Very different with me. I go back and forth between the two all day with my wife and employees, sometimes switching in mid sentence, sometimes throwing a word from one into the middle of a sentence in the other. Sometimes I'm not even aware of which one I'm speaking. BTW, I think you mean Compound.

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 12:04 PM

BTW, I went back and tried again and still didn't do any better.

The people I deal with every day just don't talk like that.

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Huh? Why the aggression? :?:

--Larry

You that there was aggression there? You must be a newbie to Nomad's. :lol:

Not intended -- just a healthy skepticism toward teaching credentials in general. Come from long experience with the California educational system, I guess.

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
BTW, I didn't realize Roberto's a native Spanish speaker. Roberto, where'd you grow up, anyway?

Yup, I'm a native speaker, all right ... just not of Spanish. :lol:

You soy Italiano, compa. Born and bred. Moved to the U.S. at age 27, but grew up speaking two languages interchangeably (English and Italian) and a few more (French, Spanish) only occasionally.

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
And for the record, puts you next to God as far as I'm concerned. My mind just doesn't work that way. I think it has to do with compound vs coordinate bilingualism.

Quite the intellectual explanation. Another clue as to how your minds works?

Don't know if you remember or not, but I once mentioned that I am a slightly different person, depending on which language (of the two I'm fluent in) I am speaking. You didn't understand that at the time.

For the record, I don't think there is any such thing as two different languages in the same context, at least not a natural one. For example, language is as much an expression of tradition and culture (especially so in older societies, which excludes the U.S.) as anything else. That fact alone makes equal context impossible.

[Edited on 5-4-2008 by Roberto]

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 07:26 PM

Growing up in Italy with an American father, I would guess that Roberto is a Compound Bilingualist. Discussing this further with mi esposa, she posits that only gachupines speak español, Mexicans and most Latinos speak Castellano. This is the opposite of what I expected,but what the hell do I know. :?:

[Edited on 5-5-2008 by Oso]

Oso - 5-4-2008 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
OK, first do I feel bad or defensive about flunking this test? No, not at all. Well, ok maybe I was in a short term petulant snit

OOPS, misspelled hecho, shouda been echo. another example of verbal vs written language.

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oso
Discussing this further with mi esposa, she posits that only gachupines speak español, Mexicans and most Latinos speak Castellano. This is the opposite of what I expected,but what the hell do I know. :?:

And the provenance of Castellano is .... Spain, right? And Castellano is considered (snobbishly so), the "purest" from of Spanish (in Spain too), right? Gonna have to discuss this one with Dona Anita soon.

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
You that there was aggression there?

Yeah, when folks start shooting at the messenger here, things go downhill real fast.
--Larry

Yes, I've noticed that. Caused it sometimes. :lol:

Roberto - 5-4-2008 at 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
I don't recall the incident, but I'm surprised that I would have expressed doubt, since this is something I've noted both in myself and others. You by chance have a thread reference for that interchange?

Nope -- sorry. But, I was pretty surprised by your reaction. Maybe it was the OTHER Larry. :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally posted by lenchoInteresting point. Do you buy the idea of compound vs coordinate bilingualism? I haven't spent a lot of time pondering it, but I ran into the idea years ago when I was paying more attention to language development and it seemed to explain certain things I was observing in myself and others...

Not sure. Off the top of my head -- no. Are we sure this theory was elaborated by a bilingual person?

I DO know that people's minds work differently, but I'll be frank. That explanation was a little obtuse for a Sunday. :lol:

Maybe I'll check again and report back.

[Edited on 5-5-2008 by Roberto]